Kids disrespectful? Whose to blame?

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

From personal experience I have come to believe that a whole community raises a child.

We Americans still bristle at this proverb. When Hillary Clinton said loudly and repeatedly "It takes a village to raise a child," it alarmed quite a few parents who are all too keen on how Democrats want to raise our children. Some even got bumperstickers that said, "I've seen the Village and I don't want it raising my child." I understand what you're saying, but there's a frightfully thin line between the village offering their help and the village pushing the parents out of the way to raise the child themselves.

It used to be that if you went to a childs parent and told them about something their child had done, the parent would punish the child. Now if you go to a parent and do that, the parent will rant at you for daring to tell them how to bring up their kids and to mind your own business. How do you expect the child to act when this is how they see their parent act. We are leading by example, even when we don't realise it.

Which has led to a waning state of discipline in schools. Teachers don't know if parents are their allies anymore.

We need to get out of this paranoia that everyone else is a pedophile out to abuse our children.

You're on to something here, especially in regard to single mothers. I was watching the movie "About A Boy" where the 12 year old befriends a man and when the mother finds out about it automatically assumes the man to be a pedophile and even accused him of it openly. I realized the trend is, Mother has a Boy, Boy needs a Father, no Father is present because Mother did away with him, Boy seeks out male role model on his own. Mother finds out and becomes afraid because any Man who would be interested in her Boy must be a pedophile. Mother "protects" her Boy from perceived predator. Mother becomes Boy's worst enemy confounding his efforts to become a Man.

I'm not saying that everyone needs to get religion again, .

I am. A return to "that old time religion" would certainly go a long way to returning us to sanity. I think everyone needs Jesus in their life.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

To saintmichaeldefendthem-

I'm noticing again a reference to fear in your post and though this is slightly off topic I have to ask, do you think fear and respect have to go hand-in-hand? Do people only respect those they fear?

I personally believe that fear tactics are a terrible method for raising or relating to anyone. Maybe on occasion a person may need to be frightened out of a debilitating behavior, but I think that as a general rule this doesn't really work. Advertising, for example, attempted to scare people into quitting smoking once the lay population realized it causes lung cancer. But people still smoke.

I believe it is very possible to respect someone without having to be afraid of them, and feel that those who "rule" through fear are really afraid themselves- of losing control. The problem is that we cannot control everything others do. Everyone has free agency, and we cannot control their decisions. All we can do is teach them how to exercise their agency and make good decisions.

This is just an exercise in absurdity to pretend that fear of consequences isn't used as a tool to raise children. While we would like obedience because it's the right thing, we'll also accept obedience because the child is afraid of the consequences of disobedience. We all live with fears. If I do the wrong thing, I might lose my job, or get arrested, or lose my home, or even my life. The head-in-the-sand "there is no fear" thinking is a swift departure from logic and sanity. Children need to be made aware that there are consequences for their actions, and that when they grow up, the consequences are even steeper. As Wednesday Addams once said, "Be afraid. Be very afraid."

[Dravin]

I think JudoMinja may be reading shades of scared of your alcoholic and abusive father kind of way into things.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Dravin

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

I think St. Michael that you mean fear in a "I better wash the dishes, I don't want grounded." or "I better not, if Dad found out I'd be grounded for a year!" way. I think JudoMinja may be reading shades of scared of your alcoholic and abusive father kind of way.

EDIT: Uncharitable response removed

Edited March 23, 2011 by Saintmichaeldefendthem1

[JudoMinja]

This is just an exercise in absurdity to pretend that fear of consequences isn't used as a tool to raise children. While we would like obedience because it's the right thing, we'll also accept obedience because the child is afraid of the consequences of disobedience. We all live with fears. If I do the wrong thing, I might lose my job, or get arrested, or lose my home, or even my life. The head-in-the-sand "there is no fear" thinking is a swift departure from logic and sanity. Children need to be made aware that there are consequences for their actions, and that when they grow up, the consequences are even steeper. As Wednesday Addams once said, "Be afraid. Be very afraid."

Ok, I just wasn't sure how much "fear" you were talking about. I agree with this assessment. Fear is certainly a natural part of life and our character, and I'm not one to stick my head in the sand and pretend there's nothing out there to be afraid of. I was just a little concerned, because though there are things to be afraid of we do not need to teach our children through fear.

Let me explain where I'm coming from and maybe you'll understand what I mean.

I think a successful teaching tool/method that utilizes fear would be spanking a child for going in the street. This is because I fear my child going in the street because I know possible death may follow if the child is hit by a car. A child does not know this or understand such fear, and this cannot be explained in a way that the child will be able to make their own decision about not playing in the street if (s)he is only one or two years old. So, allowing the child to draw close to the street, offering a shout of warning, then spanking the child if they decide to proceed forward will cause the child to fear being spanked if going in the street. Then direct the child away and explain that they must not go in the street. Continue doing this until the child turns around and comes back to you when you shout your warning- no more spanking needed. :)

Yes, there are things to be afraid of in the world. Yes, it is sometimes necessary to scare a child away from something that could do them terrible harm.

However...

I do not believe fear and respect go hand-in-hand. I believe children need to learn to fear those things that merit such fear, but if we constantly resort to fear-tactics in our parenting then children will fear us. That is not necessary, and can even work against us as when our children grow up and move away they may resort to those behaviors we tried to prevent. Why? Because the fear is gone. Instead of fearing what should have been feared- the behavior (like doing drugs, having premarital sex, etc), the child was afraid of their parent. When the parent is no longer in the picture, what is there to fear?

Yes, people tend to respect what they fear, but they also respect what they love. If a child is sufficiently taught and truly understands the consequences of their behaviors and choices, then they are able to exercise their agency accordingly. My parents did not use fear to teach me. They simply placed high expectations on me. They taught me right from wrong and how to identify it on my own, and they expected me to make good choices. For the most part, I have lived up to those expectations and continue now to exceed them.

What I meant to draw out with my question was whether or not you felt fear=respect or vice versa, as I feel this is not so. Some fear is good, as fear can keep us alive. But when we teach our children to respect others, that does not mean we have to teach them to fear others.

[JudoMinja]

I think JudoMinja may be reading shades of scared of your alcoholic and abusive father kind of way into things.

Yes, I'm trying to read the "shades of grey" here if you will. Being raised in a good home and then living through an abusive relationship, I can see that there is a fine line between recognizing good fear and bad fear- especially in trying to teach others. I was never afraid of my parents, but I was afraid of my ex. But it is my parents who have my respect. Yet, it seemed my ex was always so very concerned about being respected and making sure others showed him the respect he deserved. Thus, I found that there seems to be this false belief that fear=respect.

Not everyone who believes this is abusive, but it is important to make sure that the distinction is made between the two. Often those who feel the need to be in control believe it is necessary to use fear in order to build respect, but this becomes counterproductive. We can have respect without fear.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

Now I'm remembering my wife asking me not to talk about the family on these forums and the last few posts remind me why. It's difficult to talk generically about child rearing methods without citing what has worked and not worked with my own and so maybe this thread was not the best idea. The inferrences that in parenting, I am controlling, abusive, and ruling by fear only underscore my wife's concerns; my family should not be subject to the often judgemental scrutiny of the public. From here on out, I am renewing my effort to exercise discretion and modesty where my wife and children are concerned.