Born this way

[Seminarysnoozer]

The issues is though you seem to keep thinking that we are saying we are born this way so we don't need to control it, or at least that's been the tone of your posts to me.

These quotes along with many show that there's still misunderstanding. Not once have i said it's an excuse to give up fighting the urges, in fact in most every post in this thread it's said the exact opposite and yet you keep bringing up quotes like this, which is where i get confused.

The entire point behind the thread is " born this way" People keep thinking it's used as an excuse to not have to control things, and all i've been saying is no, that's not what it's saying, it's saying that" this is a part of me, i can control it, but you have to accept it's part of me and not just give up because i can't get rid of it completely"

So if you understand my point, why do you keep commenting on the need for controlling the urges which was said with in the first page or two of the thread and repeated over a hundred times over?

The reason I came back with those statements is your reluctance to see this issue similar to any genetic predisposition driven by carnal, physical wiring. You don't like the idea of comparing it to diabetes, alcoholism etc. Yes, there are several differences but I think it is more similar than you are wanting it to be. In those examples, there are genetic predispositions, it is not just behavior driven. ... and, they will always be there in that person's life. Why is that such a distant example for you?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Agreed, but it's also counter productive to surround yourself with people who swear a predisposition to alcoholism with out ever touching a drink is a sin.

And there it is, the magic bullet. Not one person has said anything about making the actions more acceptable. Not one person has said anything about condoning the behavior or practices. This is where the misunderstanding of this whole thread comes from. No one is saying anything about the part of this the church considers a sin. For some reason everyone keeps thinking asking people to not judge a passive biological condition gets confused with condoning the actions. I'm still really confused as to how anyone has gotten " give in to it" from my many many many many many times saying " a member who wishes to keep to the gospel and follow the church's stance should do just that". So exactly where are people getting anything about condoning the behaviors or giving in, or not putting up a fight because it hasn't come up as advice or request from a single one of my posts.

I can make one comment. I lived by my faith, I still have never been with another man, i know i am homosexual. All of the gays i know and talk to knew they were homosexual before engaging in any act that goes against the current church standards. That's the difference between the addictive predisposition arguments. They require a catalyst event, taking an action to cross that line and know for sure. homosexuality/SSA doesn't. We don't have to engage in anything to confirm it.

Again if you think this has been said even once, you are not reading what's being said. I have supported the church's stance so many times i can't even count. I have supported celibacy for faithful members time and time again. So where have i encouraged people away from the guidelines of their faith? Asking members to stop trying to change a possibly genetic condition because they think it's doable, it a far cry from telling someone to give in to their desires. The fact it's taken this many pages, and people still can't read the basic message says a lot to me and is rather disheartening even from those who say they get it, but prove they still miss the point.

Here, you are responding to my post to 'Sensibility' who said this; "

We can't stop being gay. Almost without exception, we will be gay for the rest of our lives. And if that means we can never be sufficiently faithful, then what is the point of staying in the Church?"

Yes, that is the message I am hearing and I am posting responses to that.

[sensibility]

Well, I'm normally quite strict about not going back to internet conversations after I've left, but since I was obviously very, very unclear in my last post --

That sentence was not my advice to gay members or my personal conclusion. Again, I'm an active member in good standing, and I don't plan on ever leaving the Church. I wrote that because it is the inevitable conclusion if you believe that anyone who has enough faith will be healed of homosexuality. I was merely trying to show how deeply harmful that suggestion is.

Hopefully that helps make it more clear.

[Soulsearcher]

The reason I came back with those statements is your reluctance to see this issue similar to any genetic predisposition driven by carnal, physical wiring. You don't like the idea of comparing it to diabetes, alcoholism etc. Yes, there are several differences but I think it is more similar than you are wanting it to be. In those examples, there are genetic predispositions, it is not just behavior driven. ... and, they will always be there in that person's life. Why is that such a distant example for you?

It's not in the least. I've already compared homosexuality to other "disorders" and have no real issue with it being compared to diabetes. Not sure where you even saw me discount the comparison being i took your example and integrated it with in my own point to show i had no issue with the comparison. Alcoholism requires partaking at least even once to show the existence of the condition, it requires an action which is why i don't accept that one. A homosexual never need to cross the line into acting on the behavior to know if they are affected by it. There could be a family history of drinking, but you don't know if it's going to lead to addiction for sure til you have that first drink. Also with many addictive behaviors including drinking not always predisposed and being developed it still leads many people to the " they made a selfish choice and it's their fault approach" we've already seen that in this thread presented by a few posters. I have no problem comparing it to any true genetic condition at all, my comment now as from the start is members need to view and treat it the same and most don't. This is all been about pointing that out because they still look at it like you've been doing " just an excuse to act on it and give in"

[Soulsearcher]

Here, you are responding to my post to 'Sensibility' who said this; "

We can't stop being gay. Almost without exception, we will be gay for the rest of our lives. And if that means we can never be sufficiently faithful, then what is the point of staying in the Church?"

Yes, that is the message I am hearing and I am posting responses to that.

As sensibility said, this isn't our stance, it's the message we are told.

Time and time again i talk to, or read stories or can even tell you my personal experiences. IF YOU REMAIN GAY YOU ARE SINNING. This isn't what the church teaches but what the members drive into the hearts and souls of homosexual members. No matter how chaste we are, no matter how much we fight and win against our desires, unless we are "cured" unless we become straight, we have failed and are no better than if we are sleeping around. So if we follow the rules and still aren't good enough what is the point in trying? that's the message we get. It's not official, it's not from all, but until very recently it was the main message. It's slowly starting to shift.

What is the point staying in a church that punishes you for who you are even if you fight it with all you have? Why get beaten down every week, by those who " love" you? There comes a point when a person has to ask which is healthier, staying in a toxic environment or setting out and making a go of it on your own. If you read the story i posted the man's bishop said the very same thing " if it comes down to your life or staying in the church, choose your life."

Imagine being truthful in your temple recommend interview, you answer all the questions right, are 100% honest, but at the end of the interview they say " well great you've done all you are required to, but you see, you are still human, and as we all know all humans sin, so even though you are living right, because you were born human with the inclination to sin, you aren't temple worthy" how many years would you put up with that before asking "if i've done all i can and it's never going to be enough, should i just move on and find peace rather than put myself through this?"

[Traveler]

I see what you're saying, and I appreciate that it comes from a place of deep faith in the Plan of Salvation and the Atonement. I applaud that, because, obviously, I believe those things too.

But again, I see that you're assuming that an unconscious physical reaction (sexual attraction) is on par with a conscious behavioural decision, and I simply can't agree with that. I see that you consider any physical attraction -- to anyone but one's spouse, I assume -- to be lust, a sin. I personally strongly disagree with that. Sexual attraction is instinctive, God built it into us to inspire holy marriages and lots of babies. Lust is when we misuse that attraction by choosing to dwell on or fantasise about inappropriate people. I'm attracted to women; however, I dismiss those thoughts when they come to me. Because of that, I don't in any way consider that I am guilty of the sin of lust. My conscience is completely clean in this matter.

Anyway, now I'm going to say something which is deeply offensive to much of the mainstream gay community, but which I personally believe: homosexuality is a physical abnormality. There is something wrong with my body which means that I'm not driven to mate with those I can actually reproduce with.

One study found that lesbians tend to have longer ring fingers than index fingers; the researchers suggested that both could be caused by exposure to high levels of androgens in the womb. My ring fingers are longer than my index fingers, as it happens; I didn't choose that. Shock therapy can't cure that. It's a physical phenomenon, and this study suggests that my sexual orientation could come from the same thing. In the next life, I expect a perfect body which doesn't have the abnormality of homosexuality, and who knows, maybe I'll get a more feminine finger length ratio as well. But for this life, I am in an imperfect body, and I am limited by its imperfections.

Homosexuality is a physical state of being. It isn't a behaviour.

Anyway, these conversations are always very upsetting to me, as I've indicated previously, so I'll be bowing out now. But as I do, I would like to suggest to all my lovely straight brothers and sisters in the Gospel that conversations on this track do much more harm than good, especially at Church. You may feel very safe having these conversations at Church, surrounded by the bright-eyed faithful, but I promise you that some of those bright-eyed faithful have SSA, and this sort of thoughtless pontification hurts them. When you tell us that SSA can be cured by faith, you're setting up an enormous false dichotomy: we can either be sufficiently faithful, or we can be gay.

We can't stop being gay. Almost without exception, we will be gay for the rest of our lives. And if that means we can never be sufficiently faithful, then what is the point of staying in the Church?

That's the message this conversation sends to gay members every single time it comes up. I would respectfully ask that you stop sending it.

Over and out.

Wow, often I think the biggest problem in understanding is not really a misunderstanding but a problem of miscommunication. I am confused when you say an attraction can occur unconsciously? I do not believe anyone can be attracted to anything when they are unconscious. In fact that has been my whole point - attractions are by definition cognitive. I submit that individuals are aware of what they are attracted to - be it by appearance (sight) or one of the other of six senses.

A little side note here - hopefully to make a point. I recently saw the movie “Social Network”. One of the things the founder of Facebook did at Harvard was hack into the sororities’ web sites and obtained pictures of all the girls. He then wrote a program that would pair two pictures and the viewer could pick from which they thought to be more attractive. Within hours this little game crashed the Harvard servers. Interesting thing about attractions based on sight only.

One of the things about attractions that I believe further shows that attractions are a learned or an acquired notion is the very reason that individuals can pair up in the first place. I know there is the love at first sight crowd but in my limited research of long lasting marriages and other friendships - attractions have increased (become stronger or more attractive) over time. There is only one reason that could be the case. It could only be made “stronger” if something in or about the attraction was being acquired and learned or reinforced as time went on.

The scientific definition of intelligence is the ability to learn and from learning modify behavior. In essence if behavior is not modified by the scientific definition - we cannot say learning has occured. One of the things associated to learning has to do with attractions. I would like to point out that curiosity is different than attractions but for intelligent beings curiosity can become the first step in developing an attraction. However, now we are beginning to think in scientific terms of “higher than lowest cognitive levels of learning”. This is when positive reinforcement takes place when a learner is “attracted” one kind of behavior and negative reinforcement given to a learner to discourage attraction to “undesirable” behavior. I saw the power and influence this has in determining behavior and attractions in a psychology class in college. Am I the only one cognoscente of the power of peer pressure? I have experienced with my own children things to which they were inseparably attracted were suddenly changed when socializing with other children that reacted negatively to their attractions. We see religious overtones of this in Lehi’s vision of the Tree of Life as many people were attracted to partake of the white fruit but when mocked by the many people in the great and spacious building become un-attracted to the most precious fruit.

One thing I agree with in Soulsearcher’s posts is that not all acquired attractions are because we have committed sin. One thing we should all learn about behavior modification - positive reinforcement - especially for those seeking to modify their behaviors, is both good and helpful. One thing I do believe. If someone is willing to seek out others to help them modify their behaviors and attractions (regardless of how ugly or offensive they seem to us) for the good we should be willing to help them with their burden.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Imagine being truthful in your temple recommend interview, you answer all the questions right, are 100% honest, but at the end of the interview they say " well great you've done all you are required to, but you see, you are still human, and as we all know all humans sin, so even though you are living right, because you were born human with the inclination to sin, you aren't temple worthy" how many years would you put up with that before asking "if i've done all i can and it's never going to be enough, should i just move on and find peace rather than put myself through this?"

Why would one say, "because you were born human with the inclination to sin, you aren't temple worthy"? Whoever says this does not really have a testimony of the true gospel.

Peace does not fully come until after this life. Then we have rest from this struggle.

[Seminarysnoozer]

One thing I agree with in Soulsearcher’s posts is that not all acquired attractions are because we have committed sin. One thing we should all learn about behavior modification - positive reinforcement - especially for those seeking to modify their behaviors, is both good and helpful. One thing I do believe. If someone is willing to seek out others to help them modify their behaviors and attractions (regardless of how ugly or offensive they seem to us) for the good we should be willing to help them with their burden.

The Traveler

I think the biggest misunderstanding is the notion that our physical bodies are not infallible without thought. I disagree with that. I agree with the statement "the natural man is an enemy to God". In other words, if all one does is just give in to 'natural' instincts, we can list several, those traits are in direct opposition to God. This life is a struggle against the natural man, our natural tendencies. All of us face that battle for our whole life. That is not a unique characteristic of sexual desires of one kind or another.

The problem exists when a person does not see it as a problem, when they tell themselves, I will follow the carnal (the way I was born) master over the spiritual master.

Is there a difference between committing sin and sins of omission? To not fight off the natural man is a sin. All of us to some degree do it, I do it. Nobody is perfect but lets not fool ourselves. To not fight off what some call "natural drives" that can even come from genetic make-up can be a sin. To not call it a sin, is not helping them or anyone with their burden. I disagree with that. To do nothing can be a sin. To fight, even if it is a losing battle could mean the way to pass the test. It is in the desires of the heart that we are judged not whether we are successful in taking away all the carnal influences from our lives. Like I said before, the test is not to see how we can get rid of the test. If people say that about homosexuality, I think they are ignorant about the test, and that is sad.

And, to point fingers and call someone a sinner is a sin without having the authority to do so. I am certainly not condoning that from members of the church, that makes me cry if members are doing that. If I have pointed fingers, I apologize, my intention is to point at the idea, I just have a hard time doing nothing when people are saying that following natural desires is not a sin. That message is false. The natural man in all of our corrupted forms, whatever they may be is an enemy to God unless one overcomes that state of control with Christ driven gospel principles.

[Seminarysnoozer]

What is the point staying in a church that punishes you for who you are even if you fight it with all you have? Why get beaten down every week, by those who " love" you? There comes a point when a person has to ask which is healthier, staying in a toxic environment or setting out and making a go of it on your own.

If this really is about how members treat those that struggle with homosexuality, please inform me how, when I look over the congregation 'every week' would I know who struggles with that and who doesn't? If the persecution is that strong, how are all the members of the church that discerning? I can tell you, I don't have that ability. I can't tell you what a person desires. I don't think many of us can. Some are given keys to assist in that regard, but the general members do not have that ability.

If the general members of the church do not have that ability, how then are they purposely "punishing" you? How are they "beating you down" without even knowing who you are?

If they say from the pulpit "follow the word of wisdom" are they purposely beating down all the members who are over weight? At least that, I can look around the congregation and pick those out a little easier. If members were that harsh, I think it would be a lot easier for them to pick on that problem than one that is not seen.

If the law is strict and the guidelines are strict go ahead and murmur against that, but I really am not seeing how the "members" are causing the problem. I can understand what you are claiming, I just don't see it in my congregation and really wouldn't know how I could see it.

What specifically would you have changed from the members that are already supposed to show love and understanding and not be judgmental in their approach? It is hard to fix a problem that I don't see. I know that is going to be a frustrating statement to you, I am sorry, even reading all your statements I don't see this as a fixable problem from the "members". Can we all do better, yes!, in every area.

[jayanna]

As sensibility said, this isn't our stance, it's the message we are told.

Time and time again i talk to, or read stories or can even tell you my personal experiences. IF YOU REMAIN GAY YOU ARE SINNING. This isn't what the church teaches but what the members drive into the hearts and souls of homosexual members. No matter how chaste we are, no matter how much we fight and win against our desires, unless we are "cured" unless we become straight, we have failed and are no better than if we are sleeping around. So if we follow the rules and still aren't good enough what is the point in trying? that's the message we get. It's not official, it's not from all, but until very recently it was the main message. It's slowly starting to shift.

What is the point staying in a church that punishes you for who you are even if you fight it with all you have? Why get beaten down every week, by those who " love" you? There comes a point when a person has to ask which is healthier, staying in a toxic environment or setting out and making a go of it on your own. If you read the story i posted the man's bishop said the very same thing " if it comes down to your life or staying in the church, choose your life."

Imagine being truthful in your temple recommend interview, you answer all the questions right, are 100% honest, but at the end of the interview they say " well great you've done all you are required to, but you see, you are still human, and as we all know all humans sin, so even though you are living right, because you were born human with the inclination to sin, you aren't temple worthy" how many years would you put up with that before asking "if i've done all i can and it's never going to be enough, should i just move on and find peace rather than put myself through this?"

Oh, soulsearcher, I don't feel that way as those other members do. I cannot imagine having to live every day with such a huge challenge that you are facing. I applaud your choice to stay chaste. If your church friends are 'beating you down' you should find new ones...like me :)

I certainly hope you have not been denied a recommend in spite of your true chastity. I don't think my hubby would deny one on the grounds of being tempted to sin, but choosing not to act on those temptations. I haven't asked him, but I seriously don't think he would.

I know it hurts when people make thoughtless, uncaring comments on a situation that they have never been in. I am afraid I might have made those kind of comments on different situations than the current one, and hope to be more like Christ in the future. I have had numerous members give their opinions on my struggle with my heart condition time and time again, in front of groups, and even taught in classes. It is like a slap in the face. Everyone knows they are talking about me, even when they are trying to be obtuse about it. I have been told I'm not faithful enough, not keeping the word of wisdom, putting my burden on others, become dependent on medication (which they evidently think is a sin) and not even worthy to be married to my spouse. More than one person has suggested that I don't deserve a recommend. While I do not believe my health issue compares with your struggle, I think the reactions I get from others can be similar. It's awful, and I have a hard time going to church sometimes. When I sit there in class and they give me another slap in the face in front of everyone, I know that my Savior sees it.

You hang in there soulsearcher, don't give up.

[Soulsearcher]

If this really is about how members treat those that struggle with homosexuality, please inform me how, when I look over the congregation 'every week' would I know who struggles with that and who doesn't? If the persecution is that strong, how are all the members of the church that discerning? I can tell you, I don't have that ability. I can't tell you what a person desires. I don't think many of us can. Some are given keys to assist in that regard, but the general members do not have that ability.

If the general members of the church do not have that ability, how then are they purposely "punishing" you? How are they "beating you down" without even knowing who you are?

If they say from the pulpit "follow the word of wisdom" are they purposely beating down all the members who are over weight? At least that, I can look around the congregation and pick those out a little easier. If members were that harsh, I think it would be a lot easier for them to pick on that problem than one that is not seen.

If the law is strict and the guidelines are strict go ahead and murmur against that, but I really am not seeing how the "members" are causing the problem. I can understand what you are claiming, I just don't see it in my congregation and really wouldn't know how I could see it.

What specifically would you have changed from the members that are already supposed to show love and understanding and not be judgmental in their approach? It is hard to fix a problem that I don't see. I know that is going to be a frustrating statement to you, I am sorry, even reading all your statements I don't see this as a fixable problem from the "members". Can we all do better, yes!, in every area.

Well lets see. My first personal experience with members in my life finding out i was gay was " Stop it, i don't even want to hear that garbage" followed by them all walking away from me. The last one to leave left because i started to dress different ( nice clothes, fitted clothes, not always casual), and i actually started a skin care routine ( not just soap and a face cloth), those were her exact reasons.

One thing I've noticed in most every organization is " i don't see it, that's not how it should be, so it doesn't happen" You can read what i and other gay members of the church say, but because it really does go so strongly against how things should be done, the natural tendency is to kinda shrug it off as a rare occurrence or just some wild story. But when you get the same story over and over from different wards, states, and countries, instead of saying " i really don't think you are right", it might be better to say " wow, i completely missed this was happening, maybe something does need to change"

You ask what i would change and the first thing i would change is the ability to accept they don't know everything. Instead of telling people " i know what you are going through and it's not what you say it is" That's the biggest part. For some reason i always thought Christ taught humility, but i find it lacking in members.

The analogy i used with the temple recommend was an example. It would be stupid to be told " you are human" so you don't get a recommend. It would make no sense if you are living the gospel and really temple worthy. Comments I and other gay members have got from members who know we are gay ( if you think gossip doesn't spread in a ward then you are blessed) are " you are gay so you aren't worthy" they don't care if we are celibate and trying, as long as we aren't straight we are just never going to be worthy. If i am born gay then members need to accept it's part of who i am, it doesn't mean I'm doing anything wrong, i still have agency, and quit passing judgment. This is what needs to change, members needs to stop seeing GAY=SIN.

[Soulsearcher]

I am certainly not condoning that from members of the church, that makes me cry if members are doing that. If I have pointed fingers, I apologize, my intention is to point at the idea, I just have a hard time doing nothing when people are saying that following natural desires is not a sin. That message is false. The natural man in all of our corrupted forms, whatever they may be is an enemy to God unless one overcomes that state of control with Christ driven gospel principles

The question i have is where has anyone in this thread said anything about following natural desires? so far every post has been about denying natural desires.

[Traveler]

I think the biggest misunderstanding is the notion that our physical bodies are not infallible without thought. I disagree with that. I agree with the statement "the natural man is an enemy to God". In other words, if all one does is just give in to 'natural' instincts, we can list several, those traits are in direct opposition to God. This life is a struggle against the natural man, our natural tendencies. All of us face that battle for our whole life. That is not a unique characteristic of sexual desires of one kind or another.

The problem exists when a person does not see it as a problem, when they tell themselves, I will follow the carnal (the way I was born) master over the spiritual master.

Is there a difference between committing sin and sins of omission? To not fight off the natural man is a sin. All of us to some degree do it, I do it. Nobody is perfect but lets not fool ourselves. To not fight off what some call "natural drives" that can even come from genetic make-up can be a sin. To not call it a sin, is not helping them or anyone with their burden. I disagree with that. To do nothing can be a sin. To fight, even if it is a losing battle could mean the way to pass the test. It is in the desires of the heart that we are judged not whether we are successful in taking away all the carnal influences from our lives. Like I said before, the test is not to see how we can get rid of the test. If people say that about homosexuality, I think they are ignorant about the test, and that is sad.

And, to point fingers and call someone a sinner is a sin without having the authority to do so. I am certainly not condoning that from members of the church, that makes me cry if members are doing that. If I have pointed fingers, I apologize, my intention is to point at the idea, I just have a hard time doing nothing when people are saying that following natural desires is not a sin. That message is false. The natural man in all of our corrupted forms, whatever they may be is an enemy to God unless one overcomes that state of control with Christ driven gospel principles.

I very much agree with your post - may I add two points:

My first point: Discipline is the first step to righteousness. The title disciple and the word discipline have the same root meaning. We are Disciples of Christ when Christ becomes our “master” of discipline. If we are not being disciplined in the “way” of Christ we are not a disciple of Christ.

My second point come from my father and his secret of happiness: My father would tell me as I grew up that the secret of happiness is not achieving what you desire but learning to desire things that are “good”. According to my father; happiness can only be achieved by learning to desire (become attracted) to that which is good. I use to think this to be a most odd view of happiness. One or his favorite explanations has to do with eating and exercise (hard work). He would explain that for most people happiness is impossible. This is because they are in conflict with happiness. Either they are unhappy because they are fat and out of shape and they are uncomfortable looking at themselves in the mirror or they are unhappy because they cannot eat the food they love in the amounts they enjoy (they must diet) and they are unhappy because they must exercise (exert themselves) when they would rather relax. My very wise father taught me this is an unfailing means to misery and unhappiness. No matter what the result those that follow such a course must remain forever unhappy about something.

Therefore my father taught that we must learn to love and enjoy the things that are good. Rather than be concerned with what we think we want we should discipline ourselves to learn to love and enjoy eating healthy food in healthy proportions as well as enjoying and loving exercise. By learning to enjoy good things we are always happy doing the “right” things. We are happy eating and we are happy in our activities. This is the only way we can be happy and not in conflict with something that in truth will leave us unhappy.

I can give other examples in sports, arts, in the work place, in marriage, in any relationships, and in everything worth accomplishing. I have often wondered why Satan wants all to be miserable like him. For whatever reason I have learned that those in conflict with happiness have learned to love the conflict they have with happiness and think suffering the conflict to be their only possible happiness.

The Traveler

Edited April 6, 2011 by Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

If i am born gay then members need to accept it's part of who i am, it doesn't mean I'm doing anything wrong, i still have agency, and quit passing judgment. This is what needs to change, members needs to stop seeing GAY=SIN.

This is my point, that either; 1.) You disagree with, which is fine please clarify, or 2.) You didn't get that out of what I have been saying, or 3.) Don't think the point is important or relevant. or 4.) .... I don't know, put in your reason.

... A person's body may be gay. ... the body. Your body is not who you really are.

Judging the body to be "evil" and full of corruption is not a judgment against you or who the person really is. Unless, that person can't get through to their spirit that their body isn't really their spirit. It is just the testing situation we find ourselves in.

Yes it is part of your situation. But I don't think members "have to" accept it as who you really are (your spirit), only accept it as part of the challenge you find yourself in for a very brief period of time, relatively speaking. Unless you can show to me that homosexuality is more than a carnal existence (and I already said I accept that as true) that it is an eternal principle or condition, I have every right as a member to think that that individual's spirit is not homosexual.

[Soulsearcher]

This is my point, that either; 1.) You disagree with, which is fine please clarify, or 2.) You didn't get that out of what I have been saying, or 3.) Don't think the point is important or relevant. or 4.) .... I don't know, put in your reason.

... A person's body may be gay. ... the body. Your body is not who you really are.

Judging the body to be "evil" and full of corruption is not a judgment against you or who the person really is. Unless, that person can't get through to their spirit that their body isn't really their spirit. It is just the testing situation we find ourselves in.

Yes it is part of your situation. But I don't think members "have to" accept it as who you really are (your spirit), only accept it as part of the challenge you find yourself in for a very brief period of time, relatively speaking. Unless you can show to me that homosexuality is more than a carnal existence (and I already said I accept that as true) that it is an eternal principle or condition, I have every right as a member to think that that individual's spirit is not homosexual.

I guess i just don't get which part you are missing.

Members make us feel like dirt. You can say it doesn't happen. You can think it's all a misunderstanding and the gays in the church are over reacting.

The majority of members i have run into think that either I'm gay or I'm straight. If i'm gay it's by choice, i refuse to change cause I'm rebelling against god and i'm sinning. There is no earthly reason for me to be gay, and until i am not gay in any way, physical or spiritual then i am just not worthy or trying. Until any trace of homosexuality is eradicated from my life, physical or spiritual, i am lost and incapable of being worthy. I am a lost cause.

They want the body to change. They do not accept it might be part of the body. That's, again, what this entire thread has been about. You keep saying " acting on" "not fighting" "giving in" there has not been a single case of me suggesting this. "Born this way" is physical, it's the body. Members need to accept it might be part of the body and physical. The majority i have run into refuse. They punish gay members who can not purge all traces, because there is no way god would ever give someone that physical trial. This is what i wish you could see, they punish for the body because to them they refuse to accept it could ever be part of the body.

possibly this might help illuminate my point. It's written by a life long strong members, and was bishop at the time.

Letter to Elder Boyd K. Packer on Mormon homosexuals

Edited April 6, 2011 by Soulsearcher

[Seminarysnoozer]

I guess i just don't get which part you are missing.

Members make us feel like dirt. You can say it doesn't happen. You can think it's all a misunderstanding and the gays in the church are over reacting.

The majority of members i have run into think that either I'm gay or I'm straight. If i'm gay it's by choice, i refuse to change cause I'm rebelling against god and i'm sinning. There is no earthly reason for me to be gay, and until i am not gay in any way, physical or spiritual then i am just not worthy or trying. Until any trace of homosexuality is eradicated from my life, physical or spiritual, i am lost and incapable of being worthy. I am a lost cause.

They want the body to change. They do not accept it might be part of the body. That's, again, what this entire thread has been about. You keep saying " acting on" "not fighting" "giving in" there has not been a single case of me suggesting this. "Born this way" is physical, it's the body. Members need to accept it might be part of the body and physical. The majority i have run into refuse. They punish gay members who can not purge all traces, because there is no way god would ever give someone that physical trial. This is what i wish you could see, they punish for the body because to them they refuse to accept it could ever be part of the body.

possibly this might help illuminate my point. It's written by a life long strong members, and was bishop at the time.

Letter to Elder Boyd K. Packer on Mormon homosexuals

I am not seeing what I am missing either.

I think I am agreeing with you. I, frankly, don't know what the majority of members think, and I don't know if you could tell me that either. You could certainly tell me how people react to you. But, that isn't necessarily what most members think.

I think most that have a true testimony of the gospel and live by the beatitudes of Christ would not do the things you are talking about. Do the majority of members live righteously? I don't know, maybe a topic for another thread. But, if that is what we are talking about, that is not a unique problem related to homosexuality.

I am on the same page as you in wanting to change people's perception of this, if that is the case. I think, for me, I have always seen it that way, that this is a physical trait. None of my close friends or family, that I have had gospel discussions with would have a problem saying that homosexuality is made possible by physical traits. That it is part of their body's make up to drive them in that direction and it is something that cannot be erased in this life or "cured".

I am not saying this to you, because I think you get this, but to all that read these posts who are not actively contributing to the posts; I think it is wrong to assume that just because it is a part of the physical traits doesn't make it right or desirable. There are genetic, physical traits that lead to all sorts of problems. If I am competitive I might want to play video games all day long. If I am anxious I might want to self medicate with alcohol. If my hormones are strong, I might be more prone to sexual drives than the average person. If I am obsessive I might be more prone to following the letter of the law than the spirit of the law, etc. etc. (Again, I am not saying this directly to you)

I think it is good to let everyone know that homosexuality comes from the physical body make up. I am not against you in that message, and I don't think I am missing any associated problems with that idea such as the idea of "curing" the problem. I am just making sure the sentence isn't left with that alone, it should include the message that our goal in this life is to overcome carnal influences even though the influences may continue our whole life and that we are not carnal by nature.

There is reason to believe that most people in the next life will not have any sexual drives (that we associate with physical attractions) whatsoever, unless they are part of that Celestial group. We are given this gift of sexual attraction in part as a way to participate and have a glimpse of God's endless nature (not everyone gets this in this life), to produce bodies for more spirits to come (not everyone gets this either and God knows that) but also as a test of our sense of responsibility over this marvelous feature of bodies. The majority of the time the test is in the form of abstinence, which we all face at some point in our lives.

[Soulsearcher]

The i ask seminary, why an issue with "born this way"? it's a physical not spiritual statement. It addresses the physical aspect of being born homosexual and doesn't address in any way the choice to give in or not give in to the desires. That's where you have me confused. You seem to take issue with the biological statement rather than the choice of what the person does with it and that's where you've confused me.

As for the majority of members as i usually say, it's the majority I've met combined with conversations and accounts by thousands of members all over the world who have almost identical stories.

I think it is good to let everyone know that homosexuality comes from the physical body make up. I am not against you in that message, and I don't think I am missing any associated problems with that idea such as the idea of "curing" the problem. I am just making sure the sentence isn't left with that alone, it should include the message that our goal in this life is to overcome carnal influences even though the influences may continue our whole life and that we are not carnal by nature.

Right or wrong, and i agree with your message to any member who wants to stay active, The issue that's been encountered over and over is the first part of the statement is ruled impossible, and the second part of your statement is all that's left, and for most people (look at travelers assesment through out this thread) every asspect can be changed and controlled, the control doesn't count unless there's change. The thing that needs to change is people seeing the biological statement as an excuse, that's all it is, add the second part of your statement all you want, but with out the first part, the second part doesn't really help.

the ideal way of phrasing would be. A person can be born gay. (period end of sentence.) If a person is born they are expected to live life according to the same guidelines as all other members who wish to pursue the gospel. Very simple, seems to go in line with what you are saying, doesn't remove any accountability at all. This is all i or any other homosexual member ever really ask. Keeps them on par with everyone. Accept the biological "fact" and then move on to the exact same requirement of all other members.

I think most that have a true testimony of the gospel and live by the beatitudes of Christ would not do the things you are talking about. Do the majority of members live righteously? I don't know, maybe a topic for another thread. But, if that is what we are talking about, that is not a unique problem related to homosexuality.

I don't think most members do it with the intention of doing it, but many are stuck in the counsel of past prophets. It wasn't until president Hinckley that it was taught that there was a possibility of a biological factor, that the church wouldn't take a stance on nature or nurture and instead focus on the choices being made. Before that it was taught there could not possibly be a biological factor and it was all selfish choice to not get rid of all homosexual feelings. Being gay, with out acting on it, still made you an abomination. It takes time to get old teachings out of your head and accept new possibilities , some times generations. That's the source of most of the friction right now the " well it's what i was taught and really don't know better defense" I know over time it will get better, but a lil wake up call doesn't hurt, and that's what a lot of these statements are. Trying to bring the new understandings to the forefront and get people to let go of the past.

Edited April 6, 2011 by Soulsearcher

[MormonMama]

I am confused when you say an attraction can occur unconsciously? I do not believe anyone can be attracted to anything when they are unconscious. In fact that has been my whole point - attractions are by definition cognitive. I submit that individuals are aware of what they are attracted to - be it by appearance (sight) or one of the other of six senses.

I have many times in the past only considered someone attractive after having a dream about them. In other words, I can have known and spoken to the person (in a couple of cases for years!) or seen an actor on TV many times without feeling any attraction to them. Then I'll have a dream about them in which I suddenly find them attractive, and upon waking that feeling remains and VERY rarely goes away. This has happened several times to me throughout my life (including with my current husband; I'd known him for over 2 years before I literally woke up one day and found myself attracted to him; we've been married over 5 years now).

I have no idea why this happens to me, but I doubt I would have such dreams if I didn't subconsciously find those people attractive to begin with.

Also, I remember having my first crush on a boy when I was 2! I remember very clearly that I thought he was cute and his brother wasn't. They lived in the apartment next to us and I would sit on the balcony each day that both our front doors shared and wait for him to come home. I highly doubt at that age that I was aware of what I was attracted to about him.

So perhaps the word "unconsciously" is not the correct term, but I think you can definitely be "subconsciously" attracted to someone and not know it.

And hopefully I am done making stupid spelling mistakes in this post!

Edited April 6, 2011 by MormonMama

[Seminarysnoozer]

I like how Elder Hafen of the quorum of the seventy puts it, better than I have been able to say it, talking about spiritual self versus physical self and our true identity;

"You are not simply a child of God. You are a son or a daughter of God, with all the masculine or feminine connotations of those words,"

"That is your true, eternal identity,"

"I urge you to seek a testimony, even a personal vision, of that identity. I ask you to take every possible step, each day, to align your physical and emotional life with the spiritual reality of who you really are."

"Sometimes that attraction may make you feel sinful, even though the attraction alone is not a sin if you do not act on it," he said. "Sometimes you may feel frustration or anger or simply a deep sadness about yourself. But as hard as same-gender attraction is ... it does not mean your nature is flawed. Whenever the adversary tries to convince you that you are hopelessly 'that way,' so that acting out your feelings is inevitable, he is lying."

Jesus Christ's atonement offers two healing blessings to those challenged by same-gender attraction, Elder Hafen said:

"First, Christ helps us draw on his strength to become more at one with God, even while overcoming the attraction. He helps us bear the burden of the affliction," he said.

"As a second healing and compensating blessing," he later added, "the atonement enables the grace that assures this grand promise: No eternal blessing — including marriage and family life — will be withheld from those who suffer same-gender attraction, if they do 'all they can do' to remain faithful."

I think that is what I was trying to say that when the adversary starts to tell a person that they are “hopelessly ‘that way’ … he is lying.” Unfortunately, I think some do turn "Born that way" into "hopelessly 'that way'" even though I now realize, thanks to soulsearcher, some do not interpret it that way, which is great.

Edited April 7, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[Soulsearcher]

I like how Elder Hafen of the quorum of the seventy puts it, better than I have been able to say it, talking about spiritual self versus physical self and our true identity;

"You are not simply a child of God. You are a son or a daughter of God, with all the masculine or feminine connotations of those words,"

"That is your true, eternal identity,"

"I urge you to seek a testimony, even a personal vision, of that identity. I ask you to take every possible step, each day, to align your physical and emotional life with the spiritual reality of who you really are."

"Sometimes that attraction may make you feel sinful, even though the attraction alone is not a sin if you do not act on it," he said. "Sometimes you may feel frustration or anger or simply a deep sadness about yourself. But as hard as same-gender attraction is ... it does not mean your nature is flawed. Whenever the adversary tries to convince you that you are hopelessly 'that way,' so that acting out your feelings is inevitable, he is lying."

Jesus Christ's atonement offers two healing blessings to those challenged by same-gender attraction, Elder Hafen said:

"First, Christ helps us draw on his strength to become more at one with God, even while overcoming the attraction. He helps us bear the burden of the affliction," he said.

"As a second healing and compensating blessing," he later added, "the atonement enables the grace that assures this grand promise: No eternal blessing — including marriage and family life — will be withheld from those who suffer same-gender attraction, if they do 'all they can do' to remain faithful."

I think that is what I was trying to say that when the adversary starts to tell a person that they are “hopelessly ‘that way’ … he is lying.” Unfortunately, I think some do turn "Born that way" into "hopelessly 'that way'" even though I now realize, thanks to soulsearcher, some do not interpret it that way, which is great.

It's funny because most of those who do turn it into "hopelessly this way" got that message from others. I was reading some of the quotes yesterday from church publications.

David Hardy's press release of quotes from LDS Church publications about homosexuality

Letter To A Friend © 1971 The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Author: President Spencer W. Kimbal, past President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. First printing 1971, revised 1978; latest printing post-1996.

Currently distributed to Stake and Ward leadership for counseling parents and their children.

"The death penalty was exacted in the days of Israel for such wrongdoing."

"Perversion is forgivable."

". . .the sin is curable, and you may totally recover from its tentacles."

"Satan tells his victims that it is a natural way of life; that it is normal; that perverts are a different kind of people born 'that way' and that they cannot change. This is a base lie."

"Homosexuality . . . means waste of power, an end to the family and to civilization. One generation of it would depopulate the world . . ."

". . . you are one who has yielded to the enticings of evil people and Lucifer, the 'father of lies'. . ."

". . . you can recover, and you can become the man your Heavenly Father created you to be."

". . . know that your sin is vicious and base."

". . . you should now make the super-human effort to rid yourself of your master, the devil, Satan . . ."

"You do the bidding of your master."

"You are in abject bondage, a servant compelled to do the will of your master, the devil, Lucifer, Satan . . . Is your father the Devil?"

"These unnatural practices are . . . of the Devil, the master liar and deceiver who laughs as he rattles his chains . . ."

"God made no man a pervert"

"So long as you tolerate this 'gay world' and its degenerate people, you are in a very desperate situation . . ."

"Men who die may live again, but when the spiritual death is total, it were better that such a man were never born."

"REMEMBER: Homosexuality CAN be cured."

To The One © 1978 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. (owned by the LDS Church)

Author: Elder Boyd K. Packer, acting-President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon). First printing 1978; latest printing post-1996.

Currently distributed to Stake and Ward leadership for counseling parents and their children.

". . . it is unnatural; it is abnormal; it is an affliction."

"Is this tendency impossible to change? Is it present at the time of birth and locked in? Do you just have to live with it? . . . The answer is a conclusive no!"

"Some so-called experts . . . teach that it is congenital and incurable. They can point to a history of very little success in trying to put whatever mechanism that causes this back into proper adjustment. They have, to support them, some very convincing evidence. Much of the so-called scientific literature concludes that there really is not much that can be done about it. I reject that conclusion our of hand . . . The Lord does not work by exceptions. He works by rules. Put a moral or a spiritual test upon it and the needle flips conclusively to the indicator that says 'correctable'."

"Some who become tangled up in this disorder become predators. They proselyte the young or the inexperienced."

"In a strange way, this [homosexuality] amounts to trying to love yourself."

"This condition cannot as yet be uniformly corrected by emotional or physical or psychiatric treatment. Depending on the severity, some forms of these treatments are of substantial help in about 25 percent of the cases."

". . . the cause, when found, will turn out to be a very typical form of selfishness."

"If one could even experiment with the possibility that selfishness . . . may be the cause of this disorder, that quickly clarifies many things. It opens the possibility of putting some very sick things in order."

"When one has the humility to admit that spiritual disorder is tied to perversion and that selfishness rests at the root of it, already the way is open to the treatment of the condition. It is a painful admission indeed that selfishness may be at the root of it . . ."

"I repeat; we have had very little success in trying to remedy perversion by treating perversion. It is very possible to cure it by treating selfishness."

"Don't be mixed up in this twisted kind of self-love."

To Young Men Only © 1976 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. (owned by the LDS Church)

Author: Elder Boyd K. Packer, acting-President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon). First printing 1976; latest printing post-1996.

Currently distributed to Stake and Ward leadership for counseling parents and their children.

This pamphlet was re-released in October 1999, at the same time as the Wyoming murder trial for the second of the two young men who beat Matthew Shepard to death. One of the two killers, Russell Henderson, was a young Mormon Priesthood holder (a little-known fact within the Church, but confirmed by reporter Paula Glover of the Cheyenne Tribune-Eagle). This is not to say the Church was responsible for Russell Henderson's actions. The point is that through these pamphlets, a culture of fear, ignorance, and intolerance is permitted to exist within the Church. Russell Henderson pled guilty and thus avoided a trial. In the trial of the other young man, Aaron McKinney, one of the primary - but unsuccessful - defenses was "Gay Panic" ("he came on to me and I was so upset by his homosexuality that I beat him to death").

[On the subject of homosexuality; Elder Packer relating a personal experience]

"While I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said he had something to confess. I was very worried because he just could not get himself to tell me what he had done.

After patient encouragement he finally blurted out, 'I hit my companion.'

'Oh is that all,' I said in great relief.

'But I floored him,' he said.

After learning a little more, my response was "Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn't be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way.'

I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself."

"Many of the world would, I am sure, be amused by this counsel. Let them be amused. They live by another standard, a lower one."

[Seminarysnoozer]

Yikes! I'm glad I've never seen those pamphlets or heard those talks, my understanding of the gospel comes from study over the past 3 to 4 years even though I've been a member all my life. Thanks Soulsearcher.

[Soulsearcher]

Yikes! I'm glad I've never seen those pamphlets or heard those talks, my understanding of the gospel comes from study over the past 3 to 4 years even though I've been a member all my life. Thanks Soulsearcher.

I think it's understanding those teachings that will help members understand " born this way" more than anything. That's what we've been fighting til very recently and when we couldn't change the way we were obligated to, we were left with hopelessness, which lead to Living a lie, walking away, or death. I'm glad to see gay members finally seeing a glimmer of hope for the first time in a long time, and understanding where their urges come from and how it doesn't have to mean they can't live the gospel, they are just having a trial no different than anyone and accepting the trial for what it is.