Question about familial sealings.

[Elphaba]

My mother told me today that she is going to be sealed by proxy to my deceased father. At first I was a bit shocked, because she feels no love for this man. He was extremely abusive to both her and her children, and any feelings she does have are negative ones.

But when she explained why, I understood. She wants to be sealed to her children, and apparently the only way she can do that is if she is sealed to him. She discussed it with her stake president, and he told her she still had the choice as to whether to accept his call when he calls her name from the grave during the resurrection.

I thought I understood this doctrine, but it turns out I really don't. For example, if she doesn't accept his call, does that nullify her sealing to him? And if so, would both his and her sealings to their children remain in effect? Or, would his be cancelled because she refused to accept his call? What if he still wanted to be sealed to his children, despite her refusal?

The only similar situation I could think of is if a temple-married/sealed couple divorces, are the children still sealed to both parents? I really don't know the answer to that.

Also, what if a child does not want to be sealed to his/her parent? I understand that, according to LDS beliefs, my father is probably a better person than he was while on earth (though not necessarily). But my brother was really taken aback by what my mother is going to do, though he has agreed to be the one to stand in for my father. He actually despises my father, so I was wondering, what if, after everything is said and done, he doesn't want to be sealed to my father? Is there a mechanism, similar to the one that ensures eternal marriage issues will be worked out by God in the hereafter, for eternal parent/child issues?

Elphaba

[MarginOfError]

My mother told me today that she is going to be sealed by proxy to my deceased father. At first I was a bit shocked, because she feels no love for this man. He was extremely abusive to both her and her children, and any feelings she does have are negative ones.

But when she explained why, I understood. She wants to be sealed to her children, and apparently the only way she can do that is if she is sealed to him. She discussed it with her stake president, and he told her she still had the choice as to whether to accept his call when he calls her name from the grave during the resurrection.

I thought I understood this doctrine, but it turns out I really don't. For example, if she doesn't accept his call, does that nullify her sealing to him? And if so, would both his and her sealings to their children remain in effect? Or, would his be cancelled because she refused to accept his call? What if he still wanted to be sealed to his children, despite her refusal?

The only similar situation I could think of is if a temple-married/sealed couple divorces, are the children still sealed to both parents? I really don't know the answer to that.

Also, what if a child does not want to be sealed to his/her parent? I understand that, according to LDS beliefs, my father is probably a better person than he was while on earth (though not necessarily). But my brother was really taken aback by what my mother is going to do, though he has agreed to be the one to stand in for my father. He actually despises my father, so I was wondering, what if, after everything is said and done, he doesn't want to be sealed to my father? Is there a mechanism, similar to the one that ensures eternal marriage issues will be worked out by God in the hereafter, for eternal parent/child issues?

Elphaba

Well, first of all, consider that all the sealings are, supposedly, going to be performed until there is a continuous and unbroken chain of sealings connecting the entire human race. So, for your brother, being sealed to his father does not mean the same thing as associating or affiliating with his father.

Regarding sealing status, if a man and woman are sealed, have a child in the covenant, and then one of both of them are excommunicated, while the parents are no longer sealed to each other, the child remains "Born in the Covenant." Any children born after the excommunication, however, are not. So violating the sealing covenant does not disconnect the parent from the children, although the parent may lose the blessings of the covenant.

For your mom, she will not be forced to be unhappy in the eternities (See Mormon 9:14). If being with her ex husband would make her miserable, she is free to turn down that option in favor of something that will bring her joy.

What the mechanisms are that allow this, I don't know. I try not to get sucked into the details and just remember that we've been promised we'll be happy with what we get if we strive to live a life the Savior can be proud of.

[rameumptom]

Elphaba,

The important thing is it seals us to the family of God. While we are sealed as a family, the blessings are taken individually. Your mother will have the choice to remain with your father - IF he truly repents and becomes worthy of Celestial glory. If he does not, then it is a moot question, as she will be free to choose another partner, either way. That she wishes to be sealed to her children is admirable.

As I've lived, I find that God is very pragmatic. He offers a variety of heavens to fit every individual's desire. He offers near universal salvation through the grace of Christ. When a woman found that her husband was unable to perform sexually, Brigham Young allowed her to marry a second man for time, so as to produce children for the two of them for the eternities.

I hope someday you may experience God's witness and return to the Church, so you also can be sealed forever to your mother.

[Madriglace]

While attending a sealing a couple weeks ago the sealer addressed this issue. He told the company present that even if a woman was not sealed to her husband because of his choices if she lived righteously the Lord would handle the situation ... she would not loose her children except by their choices. A loving Father would not force someone to be sealeed to someone that they would never want to spend eternity with. Let the Lord handle it ... all we need to do is our part ... I hang on that promise being single and never married with no children and yet promised children in my patriarchal blessing.

[Backroads]

Fascinating question. Part of me assumes everything gets sorted out in the eternities while the other part of me wants to know all the details.

[Guest saintish]

quoting loosely (i think its called paraphrasing) for the 2006 CHI Children born in the covenant or sealed to their parents who later divorce or become unsealed are still eligible for all the blessings that come from being sealed to two parents. not sure how that works but thats basically what the manuel says.

[Elphaba]

Thanks, everyone, for your responses. Unfortunately, I was so verbose in my OP that my actual questions were buried in it.

To clarify, I understand that my mother will not be forced to stay sealed to my father if she does not want to be. I also understand the concept that no one will be forced to be in a relationship against their will.

My questions were strictly procedural:

1) Assuming my father is worthy to be sealed to my mother, if she refused to accept his to call her from her grave, would her refusal cancel his sealings to his children, even if he and his children wished them to remain in effect?

and

2) Can children have the sealing to their parent(s) cancelled?

MOE, I am asking about the mechanism in question #2, and though you said you didn't know it, I'm hoping I've clarified it such that now you do. If not, that's okay. You're response about a continuous line of sealings was helpful, though it raised more questions in my mind (that do not relate to my OP, but, what the heck.)

1) Does the continuous line of sealings include people in the lower kingdoms?

and

2) What if no one wants to be sealed to a particular person? Is it just considered a given that everyone will have someone who wants to be sealed to him/her?

I really did think I understood this stuff, but obviously, I don't.

Thanks again, everyone,

Elphaba

[Backroads]

1. The way I always understood, the web of sealings will be so complex that no, any refusal on the part of your mother will not cancel out the sealings of your father to his children. As for the lower kingdoms, logic decrees that for this fine web of sealings to exist there can't be any breaks and thus those in the lower kingdoms would be included.

2. (first question). no idea, but it has me thinking. (second question). How tragic would it be to be the one guy (or girl) no one wants to be sealed to? You'd think SOMEBODY would roll their eyes and accept you.

Sorry, I kid on that. But I do hope someone has further insight.

[bytebear]

Short answer: No one will be forced to accept a sealing against their will. Whatever happens, it will be what is best and agreed upon by everyone involved.

Bigger picture: This decision, I believe, is helping your mother and your brother (and perhaps yourself) reconcile feelings of forgiveness. I hope you all can hold in your heart the possibility that God has forgiven your father, and you do likewise.

[MarginOfError]

Thanks, everyone, for your responses. Unfortunately, I was so verbose in my OP that my actual questions were buried in it.

To clarify, I understand that my mother will not be forced to stay sealed to my father if she does not want to be. I also understand the concept that no one will be forced to be in a relationship against their will.

My questions were strictly procedural:

1) Assuming my father is worthy to be sealed to my mother, if she refused to accept his to call her from her grave, would her refusal cancel his sealings to his children, even if he and his children wished them to remain in effect?

If we assume the temporal policies can be extended to the eternities, then no.

and

2) Can children have the sealing to their parent(s) cancelled?

I have never heard of such a mechanism. I don't think it's possible. But, I come to that conclusion myself based on the assumption that sealings to parents are not like sealings to spouses. The difference being that a sealing to a spouse involves covenants with the spouse and the Lord but only toward the child (the child makes no covenant toward the parent).

I'm aware that kind of begs the question of "what's the point?" to which I can only feebly suggest either a) it's emotional, or b) sealed children are extended some extra benefit by virtue of their parents being willing to, at one time, take on that covenant toward the child. Like I said...feeble.

MOE, I am asking about the mechanism in question #2, and though you said you didn't know it, I'm hoping I've clarified it such that now you do. If not, that's okay. You're response about a continuous line of sealings was helpful, though it raised more questions in my mind (that do not relate to my OP, but, what the heck.)

1) Does the continuous line of sealings include people in the lower kingdoms?

Yup.

and

2) What if no one wants to be sealed to a particular person? Is it just considered a given that everyone will have someone who wants to be sealed to him/her?

As a spouse or as a child. Based on the limited information on which I'm operating now, I'd assume that everyone will be sealed through posterity whether they like it or not. Not such a big deal, given no covenants or expectations involved in that dimension of the sealing. But if someone declines beings sealed to a spouse, they certainly have that choice.

I really did think I understood this stuff, but obviously, I don't.

Thanks again, everyone,

Elphaba

You should give yourself more credit. And remember...you're on the fringe of what we know about sealings. Much of what we discuss from here will be logical extension and speculation.

[MormonMama]

2. (first question). no idea, but it has me thinking. (second question). How tragic would it be to be the one guy (or girl) no one wants to be sealed to?

Strictly my opinion, of course, but I imagine that once we are in the CK we will be able to see things and people far more clearly and with Celestial eyes. Because of this, I doubt we'll be as judgmental as we are here on earth.

Also, if someone is worthy of the CK, I can't imagine that absolutely no one would want to be sealed to them.

I think that, between those two things, no one is going to have to worry about being alone for eternity.

[jlf9999]

Sometimes we want definitive answers to questions and we will not be satisfied until we get one we like. That is part of the human condition. So don't feel like the Lone Ranger if you are not satisfied with an answer. I know a man who got so wrapped up in having to have THE answer to all his questions that he became immobilized by the his quest. There maybe a correct answer to what you asked but then again there may not be.

There is peace in just accepting that God will not require anyone to endure an unhappy relationship in the next life. The mechanism in how that comes about is of no consequence. If a person accepts the ordinances and covenants of the priesthood whether entered into him/herself or by proxy, everything will be worked out. If we do our part we will be OK.

[Elphaba]

Bigger picture: This decision, I believe, is helping your mother and your brother (and perhaps yourself) reconcile feelings of forgiveness. I hope you all can hold in your heart the possibility that God has forgiven your father, and you do likewise.

I know I have forgiven him. Most often people who abuse their children were abused themselves, and this was true for him. His childhood was horrific, and while I hate that that happened to him, knowing about it made it much easier for me to forgive him.

Knowing my mom and my siblings, if they haven't forgiven him yet, they will. The one brother for whom it would be the hardest was annihilated by my father. Today, that brother is a very committed Christian Mormon, and so, while I suspect it would be harder for him than the rest of us, I have no doubt that if he hasn't yet forgiven him, he is/will work on it.

That was a very good point. Thanks for that.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

If we assume the temporal policies can be extended to the eternities, then no. >snip< Much of what we discuss from here will be logical extension and speculation.

Thank you so much for pulling all that together MOE. None of it was feeble whatsoever, and all of it was very helpful, in that I better recognize where my assumptions were accurate, inaccurate, or speculation due to a lack of more precise information. It really was just what I was hoping for.

Elph

[Elphaba]

Sometimes we want definitive answers to questions and we will not be satisfied until we get one we like. That is part of the human condition. So don't feel like the Lone Ranger if you are not satisfied with an answer. I know a man who got so wrapped up in having to have THE answer to all his questions that he became immobilized by the his quest. There maybe a correct answer to what you asked but then again there may not be.

There is peace in just accepting that God will not require anyone to endure an unhappy relationship in the next life. The mechanism in how that comes about is of no consequence. If a person accepts the ordinances and covenants of the priesthood whether entered into him/herself or by proxy, everything will be worked out. If we do our part we will be OK.

What I get from your post:

Don't ask questions because it doesn't matter what the answers are. Don't clarify your questions if they haven't been answered because it means you didn't like the answer(s), even though it was no such thing. Don't explain what you already know because it will be ignored and repeated as if you hadn't.

Elphaba