shanstress70 Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 <div class='quotemain'>I don't have time to read this entire thread, so forgive me if something like this has already been said, but I'm surprised that an LDS person like Traveler would NOT want seperation of church and state. Remember how the Mormon pioneers were supposedly persecuted everywhere they went? This is the kind of thing that happens when you mix religion and gov't. If Joseph Smith were alive today, do you really think he would want the two mixed?Thank you for at least reading some of my post. In reality my friend shanstress70 - what you are suggesting (persecution) is what happens when true religion has no expression in government. Religion inspired of G-d would do no such thing but false religion (by any name including non-religion) teaches that it is desirable to persecute others by any number of means.The TravelerNot sure of your tone here, but I did read your entire post, just not the 7 pages of posts that followed.The problem with what you just posted is finding out what IS the true religion. You think yours is, but everyone else thinks theirs is, or think that there is none. How would we govern that way? Would you like to govern the country with LDS standards, regardless of what everyone else thinks/knows? I can't even imagine suggesting such a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiannan Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Would you like to govern the country with LDS standards, regardless of what everyone else thinks/knows? I can't even imagine suggesting such a thing.Yes, and I am not ashamed to say so. There's a radio talk show host in the US called Dr. Laura (a Jew, not a Mormon). She once promoted an interesting standard to see if a lifestyle or religion is overall positive. That standard was that if every single person in a country adopted that lifestyle/religion would the country prosper and be successful in overall quality of life.Western Europe, with secularism, has shown that it has adopted an inferior lifestyle. If it were not for being able to act as a giant parasite on countries that have not forgotten the importance of religion, tradition and family the countries of western Europe would grow old and die off. Secularism gives rise to moral and spiritual relativism -- which leaves its people empty and without any unifying standards. By this criteria to judge a values system conservative Protestantism (you know, the kind expoused by fundamentalism, not the kind expoused by people who think "The Last Temptation of Christ" would be a fine Easter movie), Mormonism, Orthodox Judaism, Orthodox Christianity and Islam is far, far, far superior to secularism. A society needs a values base and I for one would rather see Europe die off from a distance than adopt secularism and get to experience it firsthand in the USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laureltree Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 I am not kidding If you look at the time frame of women getting the vote and the change in the american family you are blind. I feel blessed to be a woman, blessed to be able to work, and very blessed to vote. If it were not for those things when I was 5 my mother couldnt have worked and took care of us while my father was ill. I think at times we blame everything on change, this is an idividual problem.....If you spend to much, sopend less, if your house cost too much- live in a smaller one..This isnt about woman working its about people now days wanting to have it all and cant afford it. Some people have to work to survive and I high 5 them instead of them choosing welfare.......So re think your statement, re-think your accusation and remember you judge everyone on one mans fall, but christ doesnt do that to you... Just a thought to re-evaluate.... LaurelTree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanstress70 Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Would you like to govern the country with LDS standards, regardless of what everyone else thinks/knows? I can't even imagine suggesting such a thing.Yes, and I am not ashamed to say so. There's a radio talk show host in the US called Dr. Laura (a Jew, not a Mormon). She once promoted an interesting standard to see if a lifestyle or religion is overall positive. That standard was that if every single person in a country adopted that lifestyle/religion would the country prosper and be successful in overall quality of life.Western Europe, with secularism, has shown that it has adopted an inferior lifestyle. If it were not for being able to act as a giant parasite on countries that have not forgotten the importance of religion, tradition and family the countries of western Europe would grow old and die off. Secularism gives rise to moral and spiritual relativism -- which leaves its people empty and without any unifying standards. By this criteria to judge a values system conservative Protestantism (you know, the kind expoused by fundamentalism, not the kind expoused by people who think "The Last Temptation of Christ" would be a fine Easter movie), Mormonism, Orthodox Judaism, Orthodox Christianity and Islam is far, far, far superior to secularism. A society needs a values base and I for one would rather see Europe die off from a distance than adopt secularism and get to experience it firsthand in the USA.You aren't saying that this new form of LDS gov't would require that everyone in the US be LDS, right? Surely, no one would think that. Whatever happened to freedom of religion? There is no way I'm understanding your position correctly... can't be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiannan Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 LDS standards and general Christian standards are not in any conflict. We have not changed, mainstream Protestantism has. However, most people in the USA believe in God. A government based on LDS STANDARDS (not a theocracy but just the values of the Church) would be far superior to the confused state secularism brings to a society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dror Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 LDS standards and general Christian standards are not in any conflict. We have not changed, mainstream Protestantism has. However, most people in the USA believe in God. A government based on LDS STANDARDS (not a theocracy but just the values of the Church) would be far superior to the confused state secularism brings to a society.I think Christ reigning personally over the earth would be the best form of government. How about if we do everything we can to hurry along the End Times and hasten the Second Coming's coming? Like, in addition to continuing our missionary work, let's start a war in the Middle East, and get the whole world arrayed against the State of Israel. Then we can have Armageddon, the Rapture, and watch (from heaven) all the wicked people suffer unimaginably for several years (and cheer about it, of course!) until the Final Judgment and the beginning of the Millenium. Christ will come, and we can all live happily ever after. That would be much easier than trying to make the world a better place for everybody, right now. (Not to be sarcastic, or anything! Actually I really do think Christ's reigning in person over the earth will be wonderful. However, we mortals have such a miserable track record trying to impose our versions of "God's government" that I'd rather keep a secular government until God Himself establishes His government. Nothin' like "The Man" to get the job done right!Dror Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanstress70 Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 <div class='quotemain'>LDS standards and general Christian standards are not in any conflict. We have not changed, mainstream Protestantism has. However, most people in the USA believe in God. A government based on LDS STANDARDS (not a theocracy but just the values of the Church) would be far superior to the confused state secularism brings to a society.I think Christ reigning personally over the earth would be the best form of government. How about if we do everything we can to hurry along the End Times and hasten the Second Coming's coming? Like, in addition to continuing our missionary work, let's start a war in the Middle East, and get the whole world arrayed against the State of Israel. Then we can have Armageddon, the Rapture, and watch (from heaven) all the wicked people suffer unimaginably for several years (and cheer about it, of course!) until the Final Judgment and the beginning of the Millenium. Christ will come, and we can all live happily ever after. That would be much easier than trying to make the world a better place for everybody, right now. (Not to be sarcastic, or anything! Actually I really do think Christ's reigning in person over the earth will be wonderful. However, we mortals have such a miserable track record trying to impose our versions of "God's government" that I'd rather keep a secular government until God Himself establishes His government. Nothin' like "The Man" to get the job done right!DrorI am 100% in agreement with Dror. Religious leaders are not perfect - in ANY church! Not being LDS, I wouldn't want an LDS govt. Not being Catholic, I wouldn't want a Catholic govt. And even being Methodist, I wouldn't want a Methodist govt... it wouldn't be fair to those who aren't Methodist. And I try to remember this little thing that my ancestors came here to get away from - RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION!I love America for this very reason. If we switched to a religious govt, which I don't think there is much chance of, I would move out of this country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiannan Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Nobody is saying we need a theocracy. We just need to elect people who put God first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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