Where's The Outcry Over Torture And Murder Of Our Soldiers?

[Fiannan]

Two American soldiers were taken alive by insurgents in Iraq recently. Their bodies were found today and reports indicate they were tortured and then murdered. I'm waiting for organizations like Amnesty International to issue press conferences condemning this kind of horror. Wonder what station I can catch these groups on?

[sgallan]

I find it sad you are using their death for your own political purposes so quickly. It sorta makes you just like those you complain about.

[prisonchaplain]

Two American soldiers were taken alive by insurgents in Iraq recently. Their bodies were found today and reports indicate they were tortured and then murdered. I'm waiting for organizations like Amnesty International to issue press conferences condemning this kind of horror. Wonder what station I can catch these groups on?

Bottom line: Why the double standard? Because the U.S. claims to represent western freedom, democracy and humanitarianism. The insurgents make no such claims. So, when we stumble into barbarian ideals, we betray ourselves and get harshly criticized. When the enemy commits acts of barbarism, the response is a combination of elitism "What more can be expected of those people?" or self-hatred and blame "We made them that way."

So, unlike Sgallon, I understand the sarcasm, and the sense of unfairness. BUT, it doesn't do us well to play the victim and seek sympathy. Rather, we must renew our resolve to stay true to our principles.

[CaptainTux]

Well said PC. I hate to hear that our soldiers died so horribly. I hated watching the footage of 9/11. No matter what the other side does, we have a duty to take the high ground, abide by the Geneva Convention and press on. On the heels of events like this, it is hard because you want those who made our children, brothers, fathers, and friends suffer to suffer an even worse fate. It is natural to feel that way. We have Jesus who placed an ear back on a centurion that was taking Him to His torture and death. What happened to Jesus and early Christians was horrible and monstrous, but they had to press on and be who they were.

I hate that our soldiers suffered and I want them all home soon.

[BenRaines]

Here is a book I read a couple of years ago that you might find interesting.

Warrior Politics: Why Leadership Demands a Pagan Ethos

by Robert D. Kaplan

We cannnot fight battles based on Christian principles against those without them.

War is never pretty and neither is the loss of life, ours nor the enemy's. To live free is great but I am not sure all societies can live free based on centuries of culture. Change can happen but not quickly.

Ben Raines

[Lindy]

Two American soldiers were taken alive by insurgents in Iraq recently. Their bodies were found today and reports indicate they were tortured and then murdered. I'm waiting for organizations like Amnesty International to issue press conferences condemning this kind of horror. Wonder what station I can catch these groups on?

Fiannan~ would it matter... I mean really? People in the USA protest what they think is wrong all the time.... they write letters, participate in marches, rallies...etc.... voicing their condemnation on this kind of horror... who listens? This has happened for how long? Has ANYTHING been done to make it better? I don't think so.

I don't' watch the news anymore....because it sickens me to know what is happening to our servicemen and women..... I don't' like hearing about other people killed, tortured and maimed either.

How many people know what the black and white POW/MIA flag stands for? I know that was a random statement...but it is still something that deserves respect and honor in my opinion.

[Fiannan]

I find it sad you are using their death for your own political purposes so quickly. It sorta makes you just like those you complain about.

I really resent that charge but I think PC did a good job pointing out the intention I had in starting this thread. This has nothing to do with a pro-war in Iraq v. anti war in Iraq political stance. I am angry that there are organizations that seem quick to condemn (i.e. anything that happens at Gitmo or make a huge issue out of anything negative -- real or perceived -- that our military does) yet don't use much resources in questioning or jumping on the acts of our enemies.

[prisonchaplain]

We cannnot fight battles based on Christian principles against those without them.

We cannot fight battles based upon pacifist principles, nor upon the self-hating silliness that intimates that the life and comfort of a captured enemy combatant is more valuable than thousands or millions of civilian non-combatants threatened by terrorist plots. However, I'm convinced that there is a route we can take that is both Christian and militarily sound, and thank God there are greater minds than mine at work navigating that difficult but essential pathway.

[CaptainTux]

In my Evangelical ethics class I got into a debate with my teacher because I wrote my paper on war. I went with the less popular pacifist notion as opposed to the just war theory.

I have no problem with war. I back what we did in WWII and I back what we are doing now. I back these as a man and do not use the Bible to back em up. Jesus was a pacifist. I am not. I am also not sinless.

[Guest Monica]

Jesus was a pacifist.

Jesus is a warrior as well. He is just patient and long suffering.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Jesus isnt coming back to strum Kumbaya on a folk guitar... HE is coming back to kick some butt big time!

[Fiannan]

Jesus isnt coming back to strum Kumbaya on a folk guitar... HE is coming back to kick some butt big time!

Interestingly enough Mohammed agreed.

[CaptainTux]

And when the trumpet blows I will be glad to be a part of that battle. Until then, the Kingdom is not now. The most violent thing Jesus did the last round was turn over some tables.

[Fiannan]

Reports are now that these murderous excuses for human beings have murdered four Russian deplomats also. Please, oh please, let the Russian intelligence service have the ability to find these guys and do with them what they did to the ones in Lebanon who killed a Russian hostage.

By the way, for those crackpots who film decapitation of hostages (I would not be surprised if some of these hostages were decapitated and filmed for recruitment videos) one might ask what deviant psycho-sexual thrill do they get filming such an act and then thinking God is okay with it? Even a snuff film viewer knows he's a pervert, these guys don't even get that.

[CaptainTux]

Forgive my ignorance, but where does Russia stand with us on this conflict?

[Fiannan]

Russians did not desire we take Saddam out by force when we did. They have been somewhat neutral since -- unlike the French. However, if you surf through jihad sites on the net you will find these militants have four main enemies -- Israel, the USA, Russia and India. This is why when Russia takes out militant Wahhabies in Chechnya we should see that as a victory against terrorism as they should also welcome our taking out of terrorists in varius parts of the world.

[Dror]

Two American soldiers were taken alive by insurgents in Iraq recently. Their bodies were found today and reports indicate they were tortured and then murdered. I'm waiting for organizations like Amnesty International to issue press conferences condemning this kind of horror. Wonder what station I can catch these groups on?

You're right that sometimes people have a double standard. Of course, we liberals can play the same game: Why don't the "pro-life" groups get up in arms about the many children (let alone the working-age adults and elderly) who lack health-care coverage? Why don't they get upset about pollution (very harmful to the health, and can even kill), the destruction of wilderness and wildlife habitat, and the wholesale destruction of entire species? Why can't they see that there's something wrong when you have to get a license to drive, but not to own and operate a gun? Why don't they express outrage when somebody kills a doctor who performs abortions?

I am outraged about the torture and death of the American soldiers. It hurts even to think about such things. The question remains, though--what makes an American worth more than an Iraqi? Were you this upset about Abu Ghraib? About Guantanamo Bay?

Setting politics aside, it really pains me to see bombings, killing, torture, etc. on the news, each and every day. It feels as if the world has gone mad! It gets overwhelming enough that sometimes I just turn off the news, or skip the article in the paper for something more positive. I feel kind of conflicted about it--on the one hand, I want to keep informed of what's going on, but on the other hand, I don't want to get so depressed I get distracted from the important things in my own life. Can't speak for everyone else, but I have to wonder if others also get tired of this and skim over the "killing and death" section of the newspaper--which may help explain why people don't get more outraged.

Dror

[CaptainTux]

The soldier, above all other people, prays for peace, for he must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war. - Douglas MacArthur

I have worn a uniform to secure my country. I had one unspeakable night that will haunt me the rest of my days. I think it is myopic to assume that someone is not upset about soldiers not adhering to the Geneva Convention. Not only is that a violation of a contract we signed for the humane treatment of prisoners of war, it is a soldier's duty to adhere to the honor code and the oath he has made.

I saw no one here advocating and giving personal blessing to the human rights violations committed by American Soldiers.

Today, we have dead sons of our nation, let the people mourn that loss in peace. I have never met them, but as a former soldier, my brothers are dead.

Wanna talk about the injustices we have committed, fine. We are not perfect, please start a new thread. For now, as a Christian and an American, there is a time to mourn the loss of young people who swore an oath and died in the line of duty in an unspeakable manner.

I am angry to and, to be frank, I wanna lash out at anyone after reading the news on how they died.

On that horrid night I spoke of, I will say that two brothers gave their lives so I could live. If you have never served, you will never ever comprehend the loss of one in your unit.

For what it is worth, I oppose the death penalty, euthanasia, and am a strong advocate of adoption reform and incentives to adopt. I am pro life to the bone.

what makes an American worth more than an Iraqi?

Let me ask you...ever hear on the radio about someone dead in a car accident? Ever have a relative buy it in a car wreck? Which one has a larger impact? Your mom or the stranger? The American is part of your family and of closer relation than the other. Right or wrong, it is what it is and we are human.

To the person who never met your mom...it is another footnote in the day on the radio. To you, it is of great import.

[Dror]

The soldier, above all other people, prays for peace, for he must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war. - Douglas MacArthur

I have worn a uniform to secure my country. I had one unspeakable night that will haunt me the rest of my days. I think it is myopic to assume that someone is not upset about soldiers not adhering to the Geneva Convention. Not only is that a violation of a contract we signed for the humane treatment of prisoners of war, it is a soldier's duty to adhere to the honor code and the oath he has made.

I saw no one here advocating and giving personal blessing to the human rights violations committed by American Soldiers.

Today, we have dead sons of our nation, let the people mourn that loss in peace. I have never met them, but as a former soldier, my brothers are dead.

Wanna talk about the injustices we have committed, fine. We are not perfect, please start a new thread. For now, as a Christian and an American, there is a time to mourn the loss of young people who swore an oath and died in the line of duty in an unspeakable manner.

I am angry to and, to be frank, I wanna lash out at anyone after reading the news on how they died.

On that horrid night I spoke of, I will say that two brothers gave their lives so I could live. If you have never served, you will never ever comprehend the loss of one in your unit.

For what it is worth, I oppose the death penalty, euthanasia, and am a strong advocate of adoption reform and incentives to adopt. I am pro life to the bone.

what makes an American worth more than an Iraqi?

Let me ask you...ever hear on the radio about someone dead in a car accident? Ever have a relative buy it in a car wreck? Which one has a larger impact? Your mom or the stranger? The American is part of your family and of closer relation than the other. Right or wrong, it is what it is and we are human.

To the person who never met your mom...it is another footnote in the day on the radio. To you, it is of great import.

How true, Captain Tux. Thank you.

I have great respect for the people who serve in the military. Of course, some don't have as good an attitude as you do--I know some seem overeager for battle, but those are probably the ones who haven't experienced it yet--yet I believe most are trying to do the right thing in difficult circumstances.

You are right that one tends to mourn those closer to oneself more than others--that is, as you say, only human. I have a family member who died by being hit by a car, and her death still affects me strongly. (I use the word "have," that is, the present tense, because her spirit is still alive.) Visited her grave a week and a half ago.

It is perfectly appropriate for us to mourn our American dead--and to feel the loss more deeply. However, it is wrong to almost completely ignore the tens of thousands of Iraqi dead as if they don't mean anything. In God's eyes, they are just as important as we are. Of course, we are all equally related to Him, so I guess that would explain why He would feel the loss so deeply. It may be even worse for Him because His children are killing each other.

The really sad thing is that so many good people, whether American, Iraqi, British, etc., are suffering and/or dying, while a minority of insurgents continues to commit, and get away with, their crimes. Let's all pray that things will stabilize in Iraq, that the Iraqis will soon be able to take control of their own country, and that our people will be able to come home and be safe.

Take care, CaptainTux--and thank you for putting your life on the line to serve your country.

Dror

[prisonchaplain]

You're right that sometimes people have a double standard. Of course, we liberals can play the same game: Why don't the "pro-life" groups get up in arms about the many children (let alone the working-age adults and elderly) who lack health-care coverage?

I think most Americans are upset about our current healthcare system, but we are not sure how to solve the problem. Socialized medicine is not an obvious answer. So, the problem is serious, but the solution is not clear cut. On the other hand, abortion is: if life begins at conception, don't allow abortions. Since the answer is simple, it's easy to rally around this issue.

Why don't they get upset about pollution (very harmful to the health, and can even kill), the destruction of wilderness and wildlife habitat, and the wholesale destruction of entire species?

Because, again, the answers are not so clear. Regulations are argued over, some may do more harm than others, etc. It's easy to say, "I wish the air, water, and natural areas were cleaner," but beyond that there is no simple answer to rally around.

Why can't they see that there's something wrong when you have to get a license to drive, but not to own and operate a gun?

I think we've wandered from the prolife trail here. The simple answer, though, is that guns are easier to learn to use than cars are.

Why don't they express outrage when somebody kills a doctor who performs abortions?

I have, and so have many (perhaps most) prolifers. You don't proclaim and protect life by killing!

I am outraged about the torture and death of the American soldiers. It hurts even to think about such things. The question remains, though--what makes an American worth more than an Iraqi? Were you this upset about Abu Ghraib? About Guantanamo Bay?

Abu Ghraib was mostly about foolishness that got way out of hand--not blatant and extreme physical torture and barbarous murder. PLUS--the perpetrators are being prosecuted. Guatanamo Bay stirs a lot of controversy, but the failures there, those that truly are, are likely prison management break downs, not intentional, painful torture that leads to death.

America is not 100% innocent and saintly in this conflict. But, we are fighting an enemy that recognizes no rules, and that threatens mass casualties against civilians. Maybe Goldwater was right in 1964: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.

[CaptainTux]

There are some that "get off" on battle. They enjoy it. They are a minority. My father was in 'Nam and both my grandfather's were in WWII and one was in Korea. Conflict of the magnitude that my father saw and my mother's father saw will change a man. I am not excusing atrocities. Thankfully, the military has improved in helping soldiers adjust to life at home better than they used to, but there is still room for improvement.

War is an ugly business.

Innocent lives have been taken in Iraq for a long time and it is heart wrenching. First, they died at the hands of their own leader, then came the Bush assault which led to civilian loss, then the leader killed more of his own, then the sustained bombing campaign during the Clinton era has led to more civilian casualties in Iraq, and now we have the current Bush led military skirmish. 3 administrations of us in military conflict with Iraq and the whole time some level of genocide going on. I suspect the next president will have this conflict at least one term.

The people of Iraq have suffered longer than any of us and I will be the first to acknowledge that fact.

I doubt anyone can ignore over half a million dead children.

We live in a broken world. Children die every day from starvation, poverty, war, abuse, sick freaks, etc every day.

I would honestly love to know the weekly death count in Iraq vs the weekly death count in Africa

[Outshined]

The part of this that offended me was how quickly the press jumped in to announce that the bodies had been found and that they were mutilated, before the military had a chance to verify the deaths and notify the families.

The families deserve more respect than to hear such news from a breathless news reporter.

I would honestly love to know the weekly death count in Iraq vs the weekly death count in Africa

I believe Africa is far ahead in the death toll; just far behind in world concern.

[Dror]

CaptainTux, Outshined and you are surely right about Africa--far ahead in death, and far behind in news coverage. They do have an ally in U2's Bono. Hey, I can like the man's music and his charitable work!

My mother was in Europe during World War II, her parents hid Jews in their home, and my grandfather fought in the Resistance and ended up on the Nazis' blacklist--good thing they never caught him! Before the war, my grandparents were temporarily living in Germany. They attended one of Hitler's speeches, and he scared the socks off them! They immediately left Germany for their own country. It wasn't long before Hitler invaded their country, of course. If I ask her, my mother will still tell tales of bombs falling in her neighborhood, her aunt barely escaping with her life right before a bomb hit the building she had just left, and of being interrogated by German soldiers ("Where's your father?") playing the "good guy/bad guy" game. After the war she would play in bombed-out buildings, even though it was forbidden for safety reasons. One time, she climbed a set of stairs, opened a door--and there was nothing on the other side but a long drop! She also played on beaches where she was not supposed to play because of left over land mines. (She was not always a very obedient child, obviously--maybe she's lucky to be alive, too!) During the food shortages after the war, my grandparents ate tulip bulbs so the kids could have the soup from the soup lines, and the kids still ended up malnourished. My grandmother was pregnant with my youngest aunt at the time, and my aunt ended up with severe dental problems after her teeth came in because her mother had been malnourished during her pregnancy.

War can make for some good stories, but the human cost is unimaginably high. I'm sorry you had to experience it firsthand, CaptainTux.

Have you, by any chance, heard of EMDR therapy? They say it's been pretty successful at helping people deal with PTSD, including Vietnam vets. I know someone who is being treated, and says it works for them.

Talk to you later!

Dror

[Dror]

I think most Americans are upset about our current healthcare system, but we are not sure how to solve the problem. Socialized medicine is not an obvious answer.

I think some form of "socialized" medicine is a realistic solution. (There, an American actually said it out loud! ) What many Americans don't seem to realize is that each country that has universal health care does it in its own way. They are not all clones of each other. One possible way to do it is to follow the Netherlands' example, which seems to work rather well. If a person can afford medical insurance, they get it themselves. If their company will pay for it, it will. Otherwise, people can get coverage from the government. People choose their doctor, and doctors see both people who pay for it themselves, and those who don't. In ways it is similar to Medicare/Medicaid, except it is extended to everyone who cannot afford their own coverage, and covers more medical procedures. France has socialized medicine, and manages at the same time to have one of the best medical establishments in the world. Other countries do it different ways, and some are not as successful as others. We need to stop dithering about fretting about how socialistic something looks and just solve the problem. Human life is worth it.

On the other hand, abortion is: if life begins at conception, don't allow abortions. Since the answer is simple, it's easy to rally around this issue.

Does human life begin at conception? Does the mother's life not matter at all? You're right, though, the solution is simple. Keep abortion safe and legal. And, as much as possible, keep it rare. The "prolifers" fail on the first, the "prochoicers" fail on the last. The answer, IMO, lies in the middle ground the LDS Church takes, not either of the extreme positions.

Because, again, the answers are not so clear. Regulations are argued over, some may do more harm than others, etc. It's easy to say, "I wish the air, water, and natural areas were cleaner," but beyond that there is no simple answer to rally around.

What could possibly be unclear about the solution to pollution? Don't pollute! While it's true that putting the measures into place to reduce pollution will take money (that's what it's really all about!), it is quite possible. We have the know-how. What we need is the will to do it. Yes, government regulation of industry is part of the answer, and that may be the only way to get it done. This "voluntary basis" crap is a sham. It's just a way of saying, "It would be nice if you don't pollute, but if you do, we won't do anything to stop you." It doesn't mean anything--why say it at all? Just to make the politicians look "green" without actually having to put any teeth into it. One first step: honor the international treaties we've already signed, instead of letting Dubbie break them.

I think we've wandered from the prolife trail here. The simple answer, though, is that guns are easier to learn to use than cars are.

Considering how many people kill each other with guns, I think this is a prolife issue. Dynamite is easier to use than cars, too. So is arsenic. Do you let your kids use them? Is it too much to ask for background checks at gun fairs? Why have background checks at stores, but not at fairs? Guess where the criminals will go to get their equipment!

Why don't they express outrage when somebody kills a doctor who performs abortions?

I have, and so have many (perhaps most) prolifers. You don't proclaim and protect life by killing!

Some do, and some remain conspicuously silent. I'm glad you are one of the former!

Abu Ghraib was mostly about foolishness that got way out of hand--not blatant and extreme physical torture and barbarous murder. PLUS--the perpetrators are being prosecuted. Guatanamo Bay stirs a lot of controversy, but the failures there, those that truly are, are likely prison management break downs, not intentional, painful torture that leads to death.

America is not 100% innocent and saintly in this conflict. But, we are fighting an enemy that recognizes no rules, and that threatens mass casualties against civilians.

I hate to say it, but those are rather drab and unsatisfactory answers to serious problems. Do you think the victims would be reassured by them? Do you think those are the only times such things have happened? What about the secret facilities in Eastern Europe? If nothing else, those sorts of "scandals" undermine the "war on terror" by fueling the insurgency and possibly other terrorists, and alienating potential allies. But, if you want to try passing it off as "foolishness that got way out of hand"...

Maybe Goldwater was right in 1964: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.

I think not. Extremism is extremism, period. It's a danger to liberty, justice and yes, the American way. If we allow ourselves to start behaving like terrorists, the terrorists have won.

[CaptainTux]

Took a good 12 step program and some individual therapy in my case.

Recreational Pharmaceuticals made for some good pain avoidance.

Look, I am not giving soldiers who do bad things a pass. But I will say that trauma can cause people to do things completely outside their character. The difference between "us" and "them" is that when our government or our soldiers commit an injustice, we get to demand justice and we do have investigations and we do have senate hearings and, though not perfect, we try to be better. We have the freedom to vote new people into offices if we feel the current ones are not representing the values we hold dear and what we feel America should be.

We have the freedom to do so. American's exercised that freedom in the 60's by tossing human feces at my father and calling him a baby killer when he got home. The danger is that when we politicize and polarize the whole look at what our soldiers do-get em and let's ignore it...we create a civil war and innocent soldiers get caught in the mix. We are seeing protesters standing outside cemeteries where soldiers are being buried by their families holding disgusting signs saying God wants our soldiers dead and this is what we get for being a permissive society.

This atrocity is defended by the ACLU. This atrocity is also defended by the brave men and women who sacrifice their freedoms and personal liberties in defense of those who burn flags and say God hates them.

As far as me, what I experiences is nothing to my father and my grandfathers so I complain not. I went through a phase where I lamented the fact that a hard drive I held was more important than the lives of two men. They willingly gave their lives. That is not something we civilians can do readily...for our kids or spouse maybe. But Firefighters, cops, soldiers...they do it every day.

There are soldiers with no honor, there are cops with no scrupels, there are racist firefighters, there are bad priests, but that is a vast minority...but let us be honest....the following do not make good headlines....

Cop does job and hands out a citation and gives directions to a lost tourist.

Soldier goes on patrol, finds and disarms three IED's.

Priest delivers communion and nice Sunday service, helps teen who has crush on girl.

Firefighter goes to a call where a woman thought she smelled gas. Goes out of way to make her not feel embarrassed when there is no gas leak.

These daily events are not newsworthy or sexy, but they are done by many soldiers, cops, priests, and firefighters...many more than the bad deeds.

[prisonchaplain]

I think some form of "socialized" medicine is a realistic solution. (There, an American actually said it out loud! ) What many Americans don't seem to realize is that each country that has universal health care does it in its own way. They are not all clones of each other. One possible way to do it is to follow the Netherlands' example, which seems to work rather well. If a person can afford medical insurance, they get it themselves. If their company will pay for it, it will. Otherwise, people can get coverage from the government. People choose their doctor, and doctors see both people who pay for it themselves, and those who don't. In ways it is similar to Medicare/Medicaid, except it is extended to everyone who cannot afford their own coverage, and covers more medical procedures. France has socialized medicine, and manages at the same time to have one of the best medical establishments in the world. Other countries do it different ways, and some are not as successful as others. We need to stop dithering about fretting about how socialistic something looks and just solve the problem. Human life is worth it.

I won't pretend to be an expert about healthcare policy. It's incredibly complicated. My only point is that you don't see people rallying to a particular solution, because there are no simple ones out there. I'm one of the blessed ones. I pay roughly $2400 per year, my agency pays another $7600 for my family's health insurance. And, as decent as it is, I took at $1200 in an untaxed health account this year, and it's already almost gone (for copays and otc meds). What a mess we're in, but what to rally around?

You asked why abortion stirs the hearts and emotions of many conservatives, and healthcare does not--there is no easy, emotionally compelling solution to rally around.

Does human life begin at conception?

It's a pretty safe bet. Once the life form begins to grow, we know how it comes out. Arguments for a later date--viability etc. are based on convenience. Most agree we ought to give life the benefit of the doubt.

Does the mother's life not matter at all?

I find it frankly evil to say that an unborn child is in competition with his/her mother. In what % of cases is this actually so? Likely less than one. Furthermore, most prolifers would be willing to concede that if a mother's life were at risk, then yes, the child could be aborted to save hers. But, again, such instances are incredibly rare.

You're right, though, the solution is simple. Keep abortion safe and legal. And, as much as possible, keep it rare. The "prolifers" fail on the first, the "prochoicers" fail on the last. The answer, IMO, lies in the middle ground the LDS Church takes, not either of the extreme positions.

Keep the execution of unborn children safe and legal??? I think not. Again, most prolifers would allow exceptions for preserving the mother's life. Most would also grant exceptions for pregnancies caused by rape or incest. That's the "middle ground" for most prolifers.

What could possibly be unclear about the solution to pollution? Don't pollute! While it's true that putting the measures into place to reduce pollution will take money (that's what it's really all about!), it is quite possible. We have the know-how. What we need is the will to do it. Yes, government regulation of industry is part of the answer, and that may be the only way to get it done. This "voluntary basis" crap is a sham. It's just a way of saying, "It would be nice if you don't pollute, but if you do, we won't do anything to stop you." It doesn't mean anything--why say it at all? Just to make the politicians look "green" without actually having to put any teeth into it. One first step: honor the international treaties we've already signed, instead of letting Dubbie break them.

You sweep over the legitimate debate over which proposals to regulate actually would significantly reduce pollution, which proposals would prove too expensive, how much of a break do developing countries get, how much of global warming is really caused by humanity vs. normal cycles, etc. You want to conserve, conserve. Buy a smaller car, recycle, etc. But, when you start proposing increased taxes, regulations that will cost jobs, etc. you've got some proving to do, and the rallying gets muddled.

Considering how many people kill each other with guns, I think this is a prolife issue. Dynamite is easier to use than cars, too. So is arsenic. Do you let your kids use them? Is it too much to ask for background checks at gun fairs? Why have background checks at stores, but not at fairs? Guess where the criminals will go to get their equipment!

You said license and compared it to driving. I assumed you were wanting to require classes and testing to get the gun. Background checks do seem reasonable imho, and you'll win some conservatives to your side on this issue (mostly urban ones like myself).

I hate to say it, but those are rather drab and unsatisfactory answers to serious problems. Do you think the victims would be reassured by them? Do you think those are the only times such things have happened? What about the secret facilities in Eastern Europe? If nothing else, those sorts of "scandals" undermine the "war on terror" by fueling the insurgency and possibly other terrorists, and alienating potential allies. But, if you want to try passing it off as "foolishness that got way out of hand"...

Again, in a war against an enemy that threatens to inflict mass casualties on civilians, and will use any means necessary, including public beheadings, the fact that some soldiers went overboard and took dirty pictures, and humiliated prisoners in unprofessional manner, pales in comparison--especially since authorities are prosecuting those responsible.

The issue of using "extraordinary measures" to extract intelligence that may save mass civilian populations is a tough one. None of us is privy to the information our services have. We keep watch, but give them the benefit of the doubt vs. the Middle Eastern press, which is looking for any excuse to berate us.

I think not. Extremism is extremism, period. It's a danger to liberty, justice and yes, the American way. If we allow ourselves to start behaving like terrorists, the terrorists have won.

IMHO the Revolutionary War was extreme, and worth the price. Nobody relishes employing painful methods to gather information that will save 1000s of lives, but, yes, it may be a necessary and acceptable.