At The Risk Of Being Beheaded.....

[sgallan]

They allow you to freely vent your anger and the disgust you feel about us posters. And that my dear man is what you have been doing since you came back to this forum.

Am I going to get a bill for your analysis?

You have been so angry and bitter.

It does stir up the pot though doesn't it. Got you going.

Your posts are rather negative and on the cruel side.

All of them? Or are you being over general in an attempt to have somebody who make you uncomfortable.... leave. Which sorta illustrates what I am talking about.

It you are that unhappy here, then leave.

Yup, just what I figured above....

Have a great Sabbath

Interesting how you slam people and then say the above. Does saying it slamming people alright? Could you perhaps see how I might find it a bit disingenious.

FWIW, I tried out your religion many years ago. The LDS are among the most outwardly kindest and helpful people I have come to know. But there were an awful lot of people like yourself who obviously didn't want people like me in your religion. Didn't fit the mold. And you know what? You usually get your way (it wasn't why in my case but it was with my ex). They leave..... and you then folks such as yourself often get superior by blaming it on them.

And if you also think I am mean and bitter..... well I am a godless heathen...... who even tried your religion.... it is what I am supposed to be. Just meeting expectations.

[Jason]

MrsS,

Mormons do not try to convince christians how apostate they are. You are using apostate in the wrong context here.

You've never been a missionary huh? Just what do you think the purpose of the "restoration" is, if not evidence that the christian community is in a fallen state of apostasy?

I know the discussions have changed in the last 10 years, but we used to use the word "apostasy" when teaching our investigators.

The ex's and the anti's do it because they get a thrill out of it, and because they are trying to convince themselves that they were right by leaving the Church and for hating the Church. Thus what they say and do is done in hate and fear.

Perhaps this is true for some exmormons, but it's overgeneralizing to say the least. Many exmormons feel betrayed, lied to, and let down. They experience the same feelings as does the woman who discovers her husband is having an affair. Confusion and a total loss of trust is what they feel.

How can you understand it unless you've experienced it?

Bob,

I have to say that I joined this board for good positive LDS discussion and frankly I find that although in general the thoughts are good the over riding theme is not proactive in the LDS domain but in the LDS defending the faith.

Yeah, but Bob, whever the posts do become like this, people get bored and leave. You can only have so many posts about homemaking night, ya know?

I am challenged to see the number of posts that are negative toward the LDS teachings, the number of times the LDS leadership both past and present are addressed in a less than kind or respectful manner, I find referring to the Prophet of the restoration as “Smith” as insulting, but that is just me.

Consider our position. Do you refer to the founder of Islam as "The Prophet Mohamed" or simply as "Mohamed"? And why?

As for Jason, well I actually respect you for your honesty, knowledge and character and that you admit to being here to have fun, I just think it an incredible shame that you cannot put all that you have and all that you are to better use.

I don't make anything up Bob. I quote and reference everything I say. I consider my time here "fun", true enough, but I also consider that Im helping Mormons out as well. What I contribute may strengthen their testiomonies, or it may cause them to pause and reflect, with the possibility of leaving. Either way, Im doing something useful.

[Serg]

MrsS,

Mormons do not try to convince christians how apostate they are. You are using apostate in the wrong context here.

You've never been a missionary huh? Just what do you think the purpose of the "restoration" is, if not evidence that the christian community is in a fallen state of apostasy?

I know the discussions have changed in the last 10 years, but we used to use the word "apostasy" when teaching our investigators.

The ex's and the anti's do it because they get a thrill out of it, and because they are trying to convince themselves that they were right by leaving the Church and for hating the Church. Thus what they say and do is done in hate and fear.

Perhaps this is true for some exmormons, but it's overgeneralizing to say the least. Many exmormons feel betrayed, lied to, and let down. They experience the same feelings as does the woman who discovers her husband is having an affair. Confusion and a total loss of trust is what they feel.

How can you understand it unless you've experienced it?

Bob,

I have to say that I joined this board for good positive LDS discussion and frankly I find that although in general the thoughts are good the over riding theme is not proactive in the LDS domain but in the LDS defending the faith.

Yeah, but Bob, whever the posts do become like this, people get bored and leave. You can only have so many posts about homemaking night, ya know?

I am challenged to see the number of posts that are negative toward the LDS teachings, the number of times the LDS leadership both past and present are addressed in a less than kind or respectful manner, I find referring to the Prophet of the restoration as “Smith” as insulting, but that is just me.

Consider our position. Do you refer to the founder of Islam as "The Prophet Mohamed" or simply as "Mohamed"? And why?

As for Jason, well I actually respect you for your honesty, knowledge and character and that you admit to being here to have fun, I just think it an incredible shame that you cannot put all that you have and all that you are to better use.

I don't make anything up Bob. I quote and reference everything I say. I consider my time here "fun", true enough, but I also consider that Im helping Mormons out as well. What I contribute may strengthen their testiomonies, or it may cause them to pause and reflect, with the possibility of leaving. Either way, Im doing something useful.

Again, now you see Jason why do I feel some times as i do, they just dont accept facts. Is it difficlut to accept that there is the SAME psicological effect on both parties? Ex and stills?

[Dror]

THWAACK!! ((head rolling))

[Dr T]

Wait Dror,

Who's head was that?

[Fiannan]

FWIW, I tried out your religion many years ago. The LDS are among the most outwardly kindest and helpful people I have come to know. But there were an awful lot of people like yourself who obviously didn't want people like me in your religion. Didn't fit the mold. And you know what? You usually get your way (it wasn't why in my case but it was with my ex). They leave..... and you then folks such as yourself often get superior by blaming it on them.

Why did you not fit the mold? I certainly am not the "average" Mormon, but I get along. I do say it is true that if you are different in some ways it can epset people. So what? Suppose people would freeak out a bit if J.Golden Kimble or Porter Rockwell came back to life and came into a testimony meeting to adress the audience?

Mormons aren't perfect -- heck most of them cannot even follow the spirit of the Word of Wisdom and work off some of the lard on their behinds a bit more. But if they were perfect they would wind up like Enoch. So this life is a learning experience, not an accident of evolution, and we have to allow for some people to be jerks -- maybe they can't help it, or maybe they'll mature past it in a few years.

We have to forgive them too -- not let them drive us from the Lord's church.

[dowi1]

Kind of a newbie here. Anyway, the believers need not fear the unbelievers and the questioners. In fact, it's the openess and honesty, intellectual and spiritual, that will strenghthen and deepen everyone's religious moorings. It's when we act like we're hiding something, particularly when we're asked well-thought-out, well-grounded questions, that we come off as being cultish. Maybe we are a cult. If we are, I would hope we were an enlightened one and that we can open our history and our tenets to the light of day. Fear that exposure will lead to misunderstanding and criticism is plain weird, both intellectually and spiritually. Do we choose to work in the light or in darkness?

It is easy to criticize any organization, particularly an established religion. After all, the humans involved are...human, and mistakes are being made at many levels. But the fear of criticism and public scrutiny is not making our youth or adults any stronger. If anything, hunkering down and criticizing our critics and their motives, rather than addressing the issues, only strenghthens their position...at least for the thoughtful people who follow the media and discussions.

It would be nice to have forums for the thoughtful, spiritually and non-spiritually inclined. I hope this is a safe and honest place where questioning and even criticism, veiled or overt, will be allowed and responded to without the tribal us-vs.-them mentality.

[sgallan]

Why did you not fit the mold? I certainly am not the "average" Mormon, but I get along. I do say it is true that if you are different in some ways it can epset people. So what? Suppose people would freeak out a bit if J.Golden Kimble or Porter Rockwell came back to life and came into a testimony meeting to adress the audience?

It is way more different than that. I come from an entirely different than the usual LDS background. Every member my family has lived together outside of marraige with no regrets. Some have had kids out of wedlock. There have been substance issues within the family. There is a mix of religions (not all Christian) and non-believers. We have gay family. All of which we just consider part of life, and most of which most to many members have no real concept of as just being normal. It is why I can go into the prisons without judging those guys (some of whom are lifers that did some serious crimes) in anyway other than how they are as a student and a person in the here and now.

I find members look down on such things and people in a big way. Sometimes it is a political partisan thing (like you do occasionally). Sometimes it is a 'of the world'. My peers are similar to me. We were a wild bunch as youth but we are in our 30-50's now and just mostly middle class folks living life. The life I am familiar with is so different as to be almost indistinguishable with the norm in this religion. And I wouldn't change much. The problem lies when - and you can probably imagine HP's doing this - in PH some of the folk start saying bad things about people I love and like. My family and peers, well it isn't all that condusive to "fitting in". And nowadays - if I were to accept an invite - I would probably say something very pointed and blunt. While the results it would give the folks something to talk for awhile, it would probably be not very nice on my part. Whose to say who is right. Me, or them? But they got the numbers in that environment so it is better to stay away.

Anyhow, those sorts of attitudes, and all of the little guilts (WOW/coffee and any number of 'rules') made my ex disticntly uncomfortable. As an addict alcoholic with a crap load of some serious guilt type stuff, she didn't the petty (by comparison) guilts of this religion. And with her recent foray into drugs/alcohol/dementia I somehow doubt those petty little guilts would be constructive. It's just a different world we've lived in I guess with a conservative hidebound type culture not real condusive to understanding such things.

Anyhow.... that's my view and you did ask. :)

[shanstress70]

This has probably already been discussed but....

Why are some of the ex-members so adament about convincing the others that Mormons are wrong? Some/MOst of the ex-members are peaceful and dont, but there are a few who every chance they get post that we're wrong, its not true, etc. Why come here if your convinced the church is not true? Not chastising I'm just curious!

Hmmm, since you posted a similar question in a thread where you were specifically addressing me, I have to think that you're talking about me, at least in part, here again. I will just ask you to kindly go back to the '2 Problems' thread under the 'Advice' section and read my reply.

In a nutshell, I don't try to convince anyone that they are wrong. Most of my discussions here are about things that are non-LDS specific. I have even been asked before to go into detail about what issues made me stop believing in the LDS church, and I declined to answer!

However, if someone gives me a hard time for not believing, I may sometimes see a need to defend myself.

Why come here since I'm convinced your church isn't true? Because I used to be LDS and made lots of friends here. I'm not the type of person who stops being friends with someone because we have different beliefs. :)

[Bob_oz]

Well Jason you must do as you must do and yes an opposition either strengthens or breaks down so you are fulfilling a purpose.

I have always smiled when people state the facts; science not so long ago stated the fact that the world was flat, sail too far, fall off the edge! Today learned man tells use "we know" as the facts for so much of life when I am sure that in a few hundred years time knowledgeable people will look back and say how blind were they at the turn of the millennium! But there again perception is fact for the one who perceives.

I don't find I am bored with learning but I am bored with conflict for conflicts sake.

[Jason]

I have always smiled when people state the facts; science not so long ago stated the fact that the world was flat, sail too far, fall off the edge!

Science stated no such thing. Religion on the other hand (and specifically Christian theologians) did teach the world was flat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_earth

Today learned man tells use "we know" as the facts for so much of life when I am sure that in a few hundred years time knowledgeable people will look back and say how blind were they at the turn of the millennium! But there again perception is fact for the one who perceives.

The key difference here is that Science does not pretend to advocate ultimate "truth". It just is. Religion, on the other hand, is constantly having to justify itself, in light of it's own failure (like the 2nd coming that's still never happened) and its increasing irrelavence in an enlightened age.

[Serg]

<div class='quotemain'>

I have always smiled when people state the facts; science not so long ago stated the fact that the world was flat, sail too far, fall off the edge!

Science stated no such thing. Religion on the other hand (and specifically Christian theologians) did teach the world was flat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_earth

Today learned man tells use "we know" as the facts for so much of life when I am sure that in a few hundred years time knowledgeable people will look back and say how blind were they at the turn of the millennium! But there again perception is fact for the one who perceives.

The key difference here is that Science does not pretend to advocate ultimate "truth". It just is. Religion, on the other hand, is constantly having to justify itself, in light of it's own failure (like the 2nd coming that's still never happened) and its increasing irrelavence in an enlightened age.

"Diamond Truth".

[MBASS]

<div class='quotemain'>

This has probably already been discussed but....

Why are some of the ex-members so adament about convincing the others that Mormons are wrong? Some/MOst of the ex-members are peaceful and dont, but there are a few who every chance they get post that we're wrong, its not true, etc. Why come here if your convinced the church is not true? Not chastising I'm just curious!

Hmmm, since you posted a similar question in a thread where you were specifically addressing me, I have to think that you're talking about me, at least in part, here again. I will just ask you to kindly go back to the '2 Problems' thread under the 'Advice' section and read my reply.

In a nutshell, I don't try to convince anyone that they are wrong. Most of my discussions here are about things that are non-LDS specific. I have even been asked before to go into detail about what issues made me stop believing in the LDS church, and I declined to answer!

However, if someone gives me a hard time for not believing, I may sometimes see a need to defend myself.

Why come here since I'm convinced your church isn't true? Because I used to be LDS and made lots of friends here. I'm not the type of person who stops being friends with someone because we have different beliefs. :)

I was not referring specifically to you. You are not hostile as some others are. I do apologize for being rude in the other thread. I was slightly irritated with a response to my post that struck a nerve and when similar advice was posted to another person, I misread it and took it personally. For that I do apologize. Trouble with these message boards...cant convey feeling through typing!

[Fiannan]

A few early Christian writers questioned or even opposed the sphericity of the Earth on theological grounds, but these writers are not thought to have been influential in the Middle Ages due to a scarcity of references to their work in medieval writings. The dominant textbooks of the Early Middle Ages supported the sphericity of the Earth. Even before the translation of the works of Aristotle and Ptolemy in the 1100s, the geocentric model had supplanted any doubts about the Earth's sphericity in the minds of the learned people of Europe.

Jason, I generally do not like quoting Wikipedia but the URL you supplied gave this information. Seems that not many Christians supported the idea that the world was flat. Urban legends die hard though.