Lds Concept Of The Godhead - Questions

[inactivetx]

Hi, its me again with another question. But I want to take a minute to introduce myself and explain my reasons for being here. I took the missionary discussions and was baptized 8 years ago into the LDS church from Espicopal Church. After 1 year of being active, I moved and slowly stopped attending and slowly started going back to the Episcopal Church. Now I am married with a 14 month old son and the missionaries found me in yet another new home. I have started taking the discussions again and am debating whether to become active again and attempt to bring my husband with me. Whew. So that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Now onto my question:

I have never really accepted the Trinity even when I was/am Espicopalian because it was obvious to me from scripture that Jesus was the Son of God, a created being, and thus, as I see it, could not be God. Anyway, the LDS concept confuses me more. I have read alot on it and I think alot of LDS people don't understand the concept of the Trinity as other denominations teach it, but regardless, and here is my question for real

How did Jesus become God?

From what I understand, Jesus is our spiritual brother, yet he was special from the get go creating the earth and all. What made him different from us - also spirt children of heavenly Father. If he completed the plan of salvation, was Jesus on the fast track to Godhood because he lived a sinless life or was Jesus part of the Godhead in Old Testament times? As you can see this can be very confusing and would appreciate your insightful comments.

TIA

[Outshined]

Howdy! First off, as a geek, I love your screen name! "inactivex"-I GET IT!!!

Your topic is a good one. Not only do many mainstream Christians not really "get" the trinity or what they actually believe about it, but many Latter-day Saints are in a bit of the same boat with the Godhead.

I found a few articles for you to read over when you get the time, just to see how others more eloquent than I have described the relationship. I hope things go well with you and the discussions, but more importantly, that you are happy with your decision and the beliefs you hold. How does your husband feel about the Church?

Oops! The articles: Some of it is from an awesome site, All About Mormons, 3000 pages strong of topics like this one. http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/c...hrist/index.htm

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/g...dhead/index.htm

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Relat...tionships.shtml

http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/emmain.asp?number=105

I don't want to overwhelm you with information, but at the same time want to provide you with interesting answers to your question. As a convert, I've been asking these questions myself for quite a while..... I do know that Christ was the Firstborn of God, and was chosen from His birth to be above all others. I suppose a lot of it is speculation, but the articles I gave you do a fair job of explaining things, much better than I can.

-Outshined

[Jenda]

There are basically two different ways to look at the Godhead (and millions in between them. ) There is the Trinity, and there is Modalism.

Trinity states (in not so many words) that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all separate personages with a common purpose. Three beings united in one purpose. (Tri-unity=Trinity)

Modalism is the belief that the Godhead is all one God with different modes of expression for different purposes.

God=God the Father + God the Son + God the Holy Ghost. They are one God with different expressions.

Christianity has traditionally accepted the Trinity model, the gnostics leaned more toward modalism. I personally believe closer to the modalistic belief. But it must be remembered that these models are "best expressions". No one model can fully describe the Godhead without discrepancies occuring.

[porterrockwell]

First off it is important to note that God created the Earth THROUGH Jesus Christ. Jesus is God in the sense that they possess the same nature and as being the obedient figure(and the Only-Begotten-seperate person) that Christ was and taking upon him the Sins of all mankind he stands to inherit all that he created as an instrument of the Father(but still at the right hand of the Father). He is God in that he glorifies God in all he does. Think of it in the same sense that we serve others. He who serves his fellow man also serves me(that's the gist of it anyway). Does that mean that the people we serve are actually Christ..no, but it is the nature of our works that we must focus on. God is the Father, Jesus Christ is the Son, and the Holy Ghost is the only means by which we shall know God because in our fallen state since the Garden of Eden we are cut off from the presence of the Lord. Also important to note, Jesus said "Those who have seen me have also seen the Father," not in the sense that they are one "being", but that in all likelyhood, he is the spittin image our Father in Heaven and that they possess the same nature and countenance. Which, aside from us not being perfect, is our goal...our purpose...to have the same nature as our Heavenly Father and Lord Jesus Christ in our countenance...in our heart. Hope I am at least making a teeny bit of sense.

[inactivetx]

Originally posted by Outshined@Mar 3 2004, 05:41 PM

I don't want to overwhelm you with information, but at the same time want to provide you with interesting answers to your question. As a convert, I've been asking these questions myself for quite a while..... I do know that Christ was the Firstborn of God, and was chosen from His birth to be above all others. I suppose a lot of it is speculation, but the articles I gave you do a fair job of explaining things, much better than I can.

-Outshined

Outshined,

Thanks for the links. I have checked out the JeffLindsay site but hadn't seen the other one. I am checking the lightplanet out. Lots of info there! Thanks! I'll be back with more questions, I'm sure!

[Maureen]

Originally posted by inactivetx@Mar 3 2004, 04:21 PM

How did Jesus become God?

Hello inactivetx,

I don't want to load you down with heaps of reading but this following link is quite indepth. So if you have the time, you may find it informative. Here are some excerpts from this link:

A definition of the Trinity is not easy to construct. Some are done by stating several propositions. Others err on the side either of oneness or threeness. One of the best is Warfield’s: “There is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence.”

(2) Jesus Christ, the Son is declared to be God. His deity is proven by the divine names given to Him, by His works that only God could do (upholding all things, Col. 1:17; creation, Col. 1:16, John 1:3; and future judgment, John 5:27), by His divine attributes (eternality, John 17:5; omnipresence, Matt. 28:20; omnipotence, Heb. 1:3; omniscience, Matt. 9:4), and by explicit statements declaring His deity (John 1:1; 20:28; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8).

http://www.bible.org/docs/theology/proper/trinity.htm

This 2nd link is titled <span style='color:blue'>"Why God became Man". I recommend this reading as well.

http://www.bible.org/docs/theology/christ/incarn2.htm

Good luck!

M.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Maureen@Mar 4 2004, 10:52 AM

http://www.bible.org/docs/theology/proper/trinity.htm

This 2nd link is titled "Why God became Man". I recommend this reading as well.

http://www.bible.org/docs/theology/christ/incarn2.htm

Good luck!

M.

Actually, all those links do is show how perverse and off-base the "trinity" is. The Godhead is the truth. That trinity diagram made me wanna throw up. Do you all not see just how pathetic Early Christian "doctrine" was. It was a fabricated piece of human theory based on flawed perspective, due to the absence of the Holy Ghost to discern between truth and fallacy. I have one question, who was the prophet at the time of the construction of the Nicene Creed. And dont get off on a tangent or try to spin a pretty answer, just simply tell me, who was the prophet during that period of time.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 4 2004, 02:21 PM

Actually, all those links do is show how perverse and off-base the "trinity" is. The Godhead is the truth. That trinity diagram made me wanna throw up. Do you all not see just how pathetic Early Christian "doctrine" was. It was a fabricated piece of human theory based on flawed perspective, due to the absence of the Holy Ghost to discern between truth and fallacy. I have one question, who was the prophet at the time of the construction of the Nicene Creed. And dont get off on a tangent or try to spin a pretty answer, just simply tell me, who was the prophet during that period of time.

Are you seeing a good psychiatrist? You really have some unresolved anger issues. I think we should pray for you.

[Ray]

This is the way I think about it:

We were all created in heaven as children of our Father in heaven. We all knew Him and wanted to be like Him, or at least have some of the qualities that He has, so He planned to create this Earth for us to live on.

Our life on Earth was said to be necessary so that we would have the opportunity to prove that we were willing to do what our Father taught us to do, without being intimidated or unduly influenced by His presence.

Once away from His presence, He knew that most of us would disobey His counsel at least once during our life on Earth, but He said that one of us must come to Earth and do everything that our Father commanded.

He then asked who He should send, and two people were mentioned.

The first said that he would do what our Father had proposed, giving glory to our Father for the plan. The second had another idea, which essentially involved compelling us to obey our Father’s counsel, and He wanted the glory for being able to accomplish it. This second plan was in opposition to plan presented by our Father, because He wanted us to choose to do His will, so He chose to send the first.

The creation of the Earth then began and the One who was chosen was given a prominent role by our Father. The person chosen was the person we now know as Jesus, and his role was to act as God over the Earth. The person whose plan was rejected is the person we now know as Lucifer, and he is still in opposition to the plan of our Father.

In the beginning, Jesus didn’t have all of the qualities of our Father in heaven, but he was as close as any one of us could be. He now is exactly like our Father in heaven, not only because He still does everything that our Father has taught us to do, but because he also has all the qualities of our Father in heaven.

All the rest of us can still become like our Father in heaven, but we must rely upon Jesus to cleanse us from our sins through His atonement, but Jesus did it all Himself, because He was totally obedient. And because of that, He now has the glory our Father gave Him.

Anyway, as I said, that’s how I think about it. I could have added some more details too, but I was trying to make it as simple to understand as possible.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 4 2004, 02:21 PM

I have one question, who was the prophet at the time of the construction of the Nicene Creed. And dont get off on a tangent or try to spin a pretty answer, just simply tell me, who was the prophet during that period of time.

The Catholics would probably say it was the Pope...although not technically a Prophet, he would have been the closest thing.

But it doesn't really matter since Trinitarians are not LDS, and therefore they do not have to believe Prophets are necessary to explain the nature of God.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by porterrockwell+Mar 4 2004, 02:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (porterrockwell @ Mar 4 2004, 02:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Maureen@Mar 4 2004, 10:52 AM

http://www.bible.org/docs/theology/proper/trinity.htm

This 2nd link is titled "Why God became Man". I recommend this reading as well.

http://www.bible.org/docs/theology/christ/incarn2.htm

Actually, all those links do is show how perverse and off-base the "trinity" is.

Well then porterrockwell, tell us what parts are perverse and why you think they are perverse.

M.

[inactivetx]

Originally posted by Maureen@Mar 4 2004, 10:52 AM

“There is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence."

2) Jesus Christ, the Son is declared to be God. His deity is proven by the divine names given to Him, by His works that only God could do (upholding all things, Col. 1:17; creation, Col. 1:16, John 1:3; and future judgment, John 5:27), by His divine attributes (eternality, John 17:5; omnipresence, Matt. 28:20; omnipotence, Heb. 1:3; omniscience, Matt. 9:4), and by explicit statements declaring His deity (John 1:1; 20:28; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8).

Thank Maureen for the links, I haven't checked them out yet, but wanted to comment on something your quotes brought up. Again, I will restate that I do not believe Jesus is God, but rather believe he is a god. Anyway, this is why I have a problem with in terms of creedal statements of the trinity.

1 - God's Omniscience (NIV translation)

Job 21:22 "Can anyone teach knowledge to God [LORD] since he judges even the highest?"

Isa 40:13,14 "Who has understood the Mind of the LORD or instructed him as his counselor?...Who was it that taught him knowledge or showed him the path of understanding?"

John 8:28 "I [Jesus] do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me" (Father taught Jesus)

Rev 1:1 "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place" (Father gave/taught Jesus revelation even after his ascension)

If God knows all and Jesus had to learn, then Jesus is not Omniscient

2 - God's Eternalness

Hab 1:12 (new american standard) "Are you not from eternity, O LORD, my holy God, immortal?"

Mark 15:43 "heard his cry and saw how he (Jesus) died"

How does God die? And Jesus had to die in order to redeem us.

3 - God's Omnipotence

Matt 20:23 "Jesus said unto them, 'You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not forme to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father" (Jesus doesn't have this authority - it comes from the Father alone)

1 Cor 11:3 "Now I want you to realize that the head of man is Christ and the head of the woman is man, and the Head of Christ is God" (Written after Christs death and risen, The Father has the ultimate authority)

1 Cor 15:24, 27-18 "[Jesus] hands over the kingdom to God the Father...Now when its says that 'everything' has been put under him [Jesus], it is clear that does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, the Son himself will be made subject to him [Father] who put everything under him, so that God may be in all" (Jesus will forever reamin in subjection to the Father)

I have thought alot about this and am can better relate to the LDS structure of the Godhead rather than the Creeds concept of Jesus as "true God from True God, light from light, begotten not made, of one being with the Father" - Nicince. I just don't fully 'get' the LDS version yet.

[inactivetx]

Originally posted by Outshined@Mar 3 2004, 05:41 PM

How does your husband feel about the Church?

Well, he's not too happy with it. He thinks it is terribly restrictive (he likes coffee, beer and keeping all of his income) and thinks JS is a crackpot. Other than that he is fine with it LOL! He knew I was LDS before we were married, but at the time we started dating I was inactive and attending the Episcopal Church and we agreed to attend together. Our son was Christened when he was only 2 months old. The missionaries called on me about 2 months ago in an effort to reactivate me and I agreed to the discussions. I originally hoped to just say we're Epsicopal, my husband will never join, and that would be the end of it. But....as I listened to the discussions and remembered what the Church was like, I am drawn to it again. Especially since the Epsicopalians just elected a Gay bishop which really made me mad.

My husband is anxious about me being active again and being the sweetheart he is (and that's why I married him!) he won't stop me, but won't be very enthusiaic about it either. We have discussed and I have told the missionaries that we go to church as a family and if my husband won't attend LDS church then WE won't attend LDS church. Anyway, the missionaries want to 'meet' my husband (I read as desire to descern his spirit if he might convert) and I asked my husband to agree. Becuase he loves me, he will try and open his mind but understands that if he says no, we say no. So to make a long story short, we hope to have him meet with the missionaries next week. Whew. TMI I'm sure, but I have been dying to talk about this! So thanks for asking!