Pornography's Lies

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Rodney+Mar 12 2004, 05:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rodney @ Mar 12 2004, 05:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Mar 12 2004, 06:12 PM

...shucks bricks...

Gosh and golly, that thar is some purdy hilarious word play--mighty jimminy flipping cricket injeaneeus!!

ROFL! sorry.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Helen Mar Kimball+Mar 12 2004, 10:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Helen Mar Kimball @ Mar 12 2004, 10:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Mar 5 2004, 07:03 PM

No offense Porterrockwell (odd that a guy who is so opposed to pornography would adopt the username of a serial killer ...

People who use the names of people from early LDS history as their screen names are really stupid.

No name calling please...

[Rodney]

Originally posted by Peace+Mar 13 2004, 01:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Mar 13 2004, 01:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Helen Mar Kimball@Mar 12 2004, 10:11 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Mar 5 2004, 07:03 PM

No offense Porterrockwell (odd that a guy who is so opposed to pornography would adopt the username of a serial killer ...

People who use the names of people from early LDS history as their screen names are really stupid.

No name calling please...

Especially if it's used in a self-deprecatory attempt at humor. Seems one of the many costs to a zealous ruler is the loss of comedic appreciation.

[sgallan]

I dunno..... if Peace was an overzealous ruler I probably wouldn't be here anymore. She's one of the few (perhaps only) moderator types with a fundamentalist mindset who hasn't banned or moderated me. If I am banned or moderated I tend not to go back to that board again.... and it's only happened 3, perhaps 4 times, over the years. All on Christian Fundamentalist boards. All while having the same sort of conversations we have here.

[Rodney]

Whaddy-ya mean ya'dunno? What don't you know? That Peace is a zealous ruler or that she's humor-challenged? I was just sort of stating that those bound to enforce rules might not find much enjoyment reading the funny papers. Seems Peace might (and I repeat, might) have missed Helen's humor.

[sgallan]

That Peace is a zealous ruler****

Nope.

*** or that she's humor-challenged? ****

SOrt of. It's a fundamentalist trait. She's got more one then most though.

*** I was just sort of stating that those bound to enforce rules might not find much enjoyment reading the funny papers.***

Sort of?

*** Seems Peace might (and I repeat, might) have missed Helen's humor. ***

Could be....

[Rodney]

Originally posted by sgallan@Mar 13 2004, 09:27 AM

Could be....

Could be?

[Cal]

Peace--a while back you said to sgallan----

"....you like to consider yourself better than 'my God'...."

I think what sgallan is saying is that he doesn't think your God exists. He believes in a different KIND of God than you do. Why do you and Porter find that so hard to believe.

As I have pointed out before, God's with mutual exclusive characteristics can not co-exist can they?

I think we mormons have INVENTED a God that meets OUR biases and prejudices. We are intolerant of those who chose different life styles than us, so we INSIST that God is ALSO as intolerant as we are.

We have decided that one sip of alcohol or one cup of coffee puts us at odds with the Holy Ghost, so we invent a God that thinks the same way.

I fear that the Mormon God is simply a reflexion of a set of values that are mostly traceable to Queen Victoria, not the kind of God some of the rest of us believe in.

BTW--there are a LOT of mormons that don't believe in the kind of God Peace and Porter believe in.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 12 2004, 11:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 12 2004, 11:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--srm@Mar 12 2004, 11:07 PM

No offense Porterrockwell (odd that a guy who is so opposed to pornography would adopt the username of a serial killer ... sex bad, murder okay)

Whom did he murder? what evidence is there? Was he convicted?

Let me make sure I understand your position SRM. You don't not believe that PR was a murderer. Is that correct?

Snow--as you have pointed out (and anyone who has read some relatively unbiased church history knows) Porter Rockwell was JS and BY's hit-man. He was essentially the major tough guy in the Danites. These were a bunch of religiously motivated "hood"s who would go around snuffing out anti-mormons at the behest of JS and By both in Missouri and Illinios, as well as in Utah.

[srm]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 12 2004, 11:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 12 2004, 11:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--srm@Mar 12 2004, 11:07 PM

No offense Porterrockwell (odd that a guy who is so opposed to pornography would adopt the username of a serial killer ... sex bad, murder okay)

Whom did he murder? what evidence is there? Was he convicted?

Let me make sure I understand your position SRM. You don't not believe that PR was a murderer. Is that correct?

I havent' stated a position. I asked for your proof.

[Snow]

Oh, I know what you did SRM, but I'm not inclined to evidence to support a position you pobably already hold.

Is it your contention that PR was not a murderer?

[srm]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 13 2004, 10:25 AM

Oh, I know what you did SRM, but I'm not inclined to evidence to support a position you pobably already hold.

Is it your contention that PR was not a murderer?

But you said that it was an "historical fact." Rather than play games...why not just provide the 'historical fact'

[Snow]

What games? Are you saying that it is not known and accepted that he was a murder. Obivously you accept that he was, else you would have stated your opinion instead or repeatedly ignoring the question.

A more interresting question is why do you want me to provide proof of something that you already believe? Although you intellectually accept that a murderer like PR played a significant role in LDS hx, it is important to you to maintain some plausible deniability, as if the lack of a murder conviction somehow supports the Church's case. The fact that Porter died before being convicted, on his last charge has nothing to do with if he actually committed the crime. It is just a hook to hang your plausible deniability on. Odd that you would attach such significane to something everyone else accepts.

Again, you want me to go to the trouble of providing evidence - then you have to put something into the kitty - in this case, a bit of you credibility. Do you believe that PR was not a murderer?

[Helen Mar Kimball]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=books&n=507846

Mormons should not try to cover up the history of the Danites.

They should revel in it.

It's the Cosa Nostra for guys whose names end in "quist" & "sen".

I have no problems in someone using Porter Rockwell as a screen name. But I do have problems with the state of Utah (or maybe it's Salt Lake County) naming a facility after a guy who may have committed the most religiously-inspired murders of anyone up until Sept 11, 2001.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 13 2004, 12:42 PM

What games? Are you saying that it is not known and accepted that he was a murder. Obivously you accept that he was, else you would have stated your opinion instead or repeatedly ignoring the question.

A more interresting question is why do you want me to provide proof of something that you already believe? Although you intellectually accept that a murderer like PR played a significant role in LDS hx, it is important to you to maintain some plausible deniability, as if the lack of a murder conviction somehow supports the Church's case. The fact that Porter died before being convicted, on his last charge has nothing to do with if he actually committed the crime. It is just a hook to hang your plausible deniability on. Odd that you would attach such significane to something everyone else accepts.

Again, you want me to go to the trouble of providing evidence - then you have to put something into the kitty - in this case, a bit of you credibility. Do you believe that PR was not a murderer?

Snow--it is obvious SRM doesn't want to commit to a position because he already knows we can disprove him if he denies that PR was BY's hit man.

SRM--There are a couple of books that document the facts surrounding his life that are just as reliable as any of the rest of church history that mormons commonly rely on to bolster their faith. Go to Amazon and look them up and read them for yourself, and quit harassing Snow. He doesn't have any obligation to satisfy a curiousity on your part that can be accomplished with a modicum of initiative.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Mar 14 2004, 08:47 AM

Snow--it is obvious SRM doesn't want to commit to a position because he already knows we can disprove him if he denies that PR was BY's hit man.

Ah but now I have to take SRM's side. Granted PR was a bad guy, acutally a facsinating juxtaposition of piety and violence, but when you put it in terms of being someone's (BY) hit man, taking orders from and carrying them out - now that's something I would like to see the evidence for...

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 14 2004, 11:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 14 2004, 11:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Mar 14 2004, 08:47 AM

Snow--it is obvious SRM doesn't want to commit to a position because he already knows we can disprove him if he denies that PR was BY's hit man.

Ah but now I have to take SRM's side. Granted PR was a bad guy, acutally a facsinating juxtaposition of piety and violence, but when you put it in terms of being someone's (BY) hit man, taking orders from and carrying them out - now that's something I would like to see the evidence for...

Actually, hit-man is probably a bit strong. It is based on some inferences I drew when I read about some of the circumstances of some of his activities. It seemed implausible to me that BY didn't know (and even order or condone) of some of his "activities".

[porterrockwell]

I find it funny that JS was also jailed heavily, and brought up on false charges a lot at that time. Let's not forget that at the time the Church was just getting started, people were hunting us down. No one likes to bring up how much hatred and opposition to FREEDOM, there was at that point. We even had a death order sent out on our heads. Orin Porter Rockwell along with other "spotlighted" mormon figures took a great deal of strife JUST because they were Mormon. Until a prophet of the Church says otherwise, and as long as JS's writings maintain it. PR is ok in my book. One thing is, none of us were there. And if I were to believe everything(or even half) of what was written about Mormons at that time(including JS) then JS would have to be a crackpot with an imagination far from anything religious. Sorry Snow, just don't buy it.

[Maureen]

Originally posted by srm@Mar 12 2004, 11:07 PM

Whom did he murder? what evidence is there? Was he convicted?

I'm adding my 2cents to this thread:

OPR murdered Lieutenant Frank Worrell of the Carthage Greys. One of the men acquitted of the murder of JS and Hyrum Smith. After the acquittals mayhem ensued between the Mormons and Gentiles (anti-Mormons). Several Mormon settlements were reduced to cinders. The county sheriff, Jacob Backenstos, was having problems raising a posse to capture marauders. He was accused of siding with the Mormons. Friends warned him about a plot against his life. The morning of Sept. 16, 1845, Backenstos drove his carriage to Carthage. From the book Orrin Porter Rockwell: Man of God / Son of Thunder (pp 138-139) it reads:

<span style='color:blue'>Lieutenant Frank Worrell of the Carthage Greys was flanked by two companions as he nudged his horse along the Warsaw road on the morning of September 16. Behind the three riders came five other men in a light rig and a two-horse wagon containing rifles. As they approached the Nauvoo road, Worrell pointed to a carriage nearing the crossroads in front of them. "It's that damn Backenstos," he shouted, spurring forward.

Backenstos had been eyeing the riders closely as they drew nearer, and when the lead horseman suddenly slapped his mount to a gallop, the sheriff laid on the whip and urged his own animal to top speed. Having the advantage of a two-hundred-yard lead, Backenstos disappeared over the brow of a hill before the rider could overtake him.

As it happened Rockwell and another Mormon, Return Jackson Redden, were watering their horses near a railroad siding when they spotted Backenstos charging straight at them. His pursuers were still out of sight beyond the rise. Rockwell and Redden, who had been assisting burned-out Mormon families in moving their possessions, sensed trouble and reached for their guns. The sheriff pulled hard on the reins and jerked to a stop in a cloud of dust. Backenstos sputtered in his haste to get the words out; he ordered the two Mormons to protect him "in the name of the state of Illinois, County of Hancock," from the "mob" at his heels. "Don't worry," Rockwell said, "We've got our pistols and two rifles."

No sooner had he spoken than two horsemen appeared on the crest of the hill and raced down on them. Worrell was well ahead of the closest man; the other had been thrown when his horse stumbled. Once the two were within hailing distance the sheriff shouted an order to stop. In answer, Worrell reached for his pistol. Before he could bring the gun to bear, a ball from Rockwell's rifle tore into his abdomen and catapulted Worrell from the saddle. At the sound of the shot the second rider frantically wheeled his horse and galloped to the wagon and buggy now arriving on the scene. The men gazed in disbelief at Worrell's crumpled form on the ground. Under Rockwell's cold gaze they gathered up their wounded leader and carried him to the wagon; he died before they reached Warsaw.

Footnotes show Peter Wilson Conover, "Autobiography," MS, p. 20; Gregg, History of Hancock County, pp. 340-341. At the watering hole there were witnesses who gave testimonoy at the sheriff's trial for murder.

Eventually around May 1846, OPR was arrested for the murrder of Frank Worrell. OPR: Man of God / Son of Thunder (pp 146-149) reads:

But his capture was in fact a carefully hatched plan to temporarily divert the attention of the anti-Mormon party and gain precious time for the Saints. Because Backenstos was prepared to testify that he had ordered Rockwell to shoot Worrell, church authorities were of the opinion that an impartail jury would not return a guilty verdict. Rockwell had agreed to face trial on first-degree murder charges, but the plan involved obtaining a change of venue to a court more favorable to the Saints.....Ultimately, the request for a change of venue to Galena, one hundred and fifty miles to the north in Daviess County , was granted - and not a moment too soon. A grand jury handed down an indictment against Rockwell by the first of June and ordered him to appear for trial the following month. Babbitt, after relieving his client of a gold watch as a fee for his services, subpoenaed his star witness, Sheriff Backenstos, and Rockwell was promptly freed.

M.

[srm]

Originally posted by Maureen+Mar 14 2004, 05:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Mar 14 2004, 05:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--srm@Mar 12 2004, 11:07 PM

Whom did he murder?  what evidence is there?  Was he convicted?

I'm adding my 2cents to this thread:

OPR murdered Lieutenant Frank Worrell of the Carthage Greys. One of the men acquitted of the murder of JS and Hyrum Smith. After the acquittals mayhem ensued between the Mormons and Gentiles (anti-Mormons). Several Mormon settlements were reduced to cinders. The county sheriff, Jacob Backenstos, was having problems raising a posse to capture marauders. He was accused of siding with the Mormons. Friends warned him about a plot against his life. The morning of Sept. 16, 1845, Backenstos drove his carriage to Carthage. From the book Orrin Porter Rockwell: Man of God / Son of Thunder (pp 138-139) it reads:

<span style='color:blue'>Lieutenant Frank Worrell of the Carthage Greys was flanked by two companions as he nudged his horse along the Warsaw road on the morning of September 16. Behind the three riders came five other men in a light rig and a two-horse wagon containing rifles. As they approached the Nauvoo road, Worrell pointed to a carriage nearing the crossroads in front of them. "It's that damn Backenstos," he shouted, spurring forward.

Backenstos had been eyeing the riders closely as they drew nearer, and when the lead horseman suddenly slapped his mount to a gallop, the sheriff laid on the whip and urged his own animal to top speed. Having the advantage of a two-hundred-yard lead, Backenstos disappeared over the brow of a hill before the rider could overtake him.

As it happened Rockwell and another Mormon, Return Jackson Redden, were watering their horses near a railroad siding when they spotted Backenstos charging straight at them. His pursuers were still out of sight beyond the rise. Rockwell and Redden, who had been assisting burned-out Mormon families in moving their possessions, sensed trouble and reached for their guns. The sheriff pulled hard on the reins and jerked to a stop in a cloud of dust. Backenstos sputtered in his haste to get the words out; he ordered the two Mormons to protect him "in the name of the state of Illinois, County of Hancock," from the "mob" at his heels. "Don't worry," Rockwell said, "We've got our pistols and two rifles."

No sooner had he spoken than two horsemen appeared on the crest of the hill and raced down on them. Worrell was well ahead of the closest man; the other had been thrown when his horse stumbled. Once the two were within hailing distance the sheriff shouted an order to stop. In answer, Worrell reached for his pistol. Before he could bring the gun to bear, a ball from Rockwell's rifle tore into his abdomen and catapulted Worrell from the saddle. At the sound of the shot the second rider frantically wheeled his horse and galloped to the wagon and buggy now arriving on the scene. The men gazed in disbelief at Worrell's crumpled form on the ground. Under Rockwell's cold gaze they gathered up their wounded leader and carried him to the wagon; he died before they reached Warsaw.

Footnotes show Peter Wilson Conover, "Autobiography," MS, p. 20; Gregg, History of Hancock County, pp. 340-341. At the watering hole there were witnesses who gave testimonoy at the sheriff's trial for murder.

Eventually around May 1846, OPR was arrested for the murrder of Frank Worrell. OPR: Man of God / Son of Thunder (pp 146-149) reads:

But his capture was in fact a carefully hatched plan to temporarily divert the attention of the anti-Mormon party and gain precious time for the Saints. Because Backenstos was prepared to testify that he had ordered Rockwell to shoot Worrell, church authorities were of the opinion that an impartail jury would not return a guilty verdict. Rockwell had agreed to face trial on first-degree murder charges, but the plan involved obtaining a change of venue to a court more favorable to the Saints.....Ultimately, the request for a change of venue to Galena, one hundred and fifty miles to the north in Daviess County , was granted - and not a moment too soon. A grand jury handed down an indictment against Rockwell by the first of June and ordered him to appear for trial the following month. Babbitt, after relieving his client of a gold watch as a fee for his services, subpoenaed his star witness, Sheriff Backenstos, and Rockwell was promptly freed.

M.

he was ordered by an officer of the law to protect him and then shot a man who was charging them AND drawing his weapon. This is murder to you?

[srm]

Originally posted by Cal+Mar 14 2004, 08:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Mar 14 2004, 08:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Mar 13 2004, 12:42 PM

What games? Are you saying that it is not known and accepted that he was a murder. Obivously you accept that he was, else you would have stated your opinion instead or repeatedly ignoring the question.

A more interresting question is why do you want me to provide proof of something that you already believe? Although you intellectually accept that a murderer like PR played a significant role in LDS hx, it is important to you to maintain some plausible deniability, as if the lack of a murder conviction somehow supports the Church's case. The fact that Porter died before being convicted, on his last charge has nothing to do with if he actually committed the crime. It is just a hook to hang your plausible deniability on. Odd that you would attach such significane to something everyone else accepts.

Again, you want me to go to the trouble of providing evidence - then you have to put something into the kitty - in this case, a bit of you credibility. Do you believe that PR was not a murderer?

Snow--it is obvious SRM doesn't want to commit to a position because he already knows we can disprove him if he denies that PR was BY's hit man.

SRM--There are a couple of books that document the facts surrounding his life that are just as reliable as any of the rest of church history that mormons commonly rely on to bolster their faith. Go to Amazon and look them up and read them for yourself, and quit harassing Snow. He doesn't have any obligation to satisfy a curiousity on your part that can be accomplished with a modicum of initiative.

Snow wouldn't allow someone to make such claims without evidence...why should I?

[Snow]

Originally posted by srm@Mar 14 2004, 06:04 PM

Snow wouldn't allow someone to make such claims without evidence...why should I?

I don't think I am making a claim. I am stating an accepted fact. Maybe I am wrong. Do you know of anyone who disputes that Rockwell was a murder?

Your own unwillingness to dispute it, what is it, 4 times now, tells me that you don't.

[srm]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 14 2004, 06:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 14 2004, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--srm@Mar 14 2004, 06:04 PM

Snow wouldn't allow someone to make such claims without evidence...why should I?

I don't think I am making a claim. I am stating an accepted fact. Maybe I am wrong. Do you know of anyone who disputes that Rockwell was a murder?

Your own unwillingness to dispute it, what is it, 4 times now, tells me that you don't.

A fact accepted by whom? Your 'claim' is that he was a serial killer. here is what you said, "odd that a guy who is so opposed to pornography would adopt the username of a serial killer ... sex bad, murder okay"

Again, A fact accepted by whom? Whom did he murder? When was he convicted?

[Snow]

Never mind SRM,

There's nothing in this debate for me.

If you ever want to take a position (what is that? 5 times you have refused to state your position) and put some credibility into the kitty, then I gladly deal you in, and after I take the hand, I'll smile ever so nicely and thank you for your participation.

[porterrockwell]

From what I can read, of course he is going to made out to be a murderer. The fact is he defended the early Mormons that took aggregious assault from various parties. It's never fun when someone on the defense has the ability to protect and detear is it! I do not believe that the Church would stand behind Orin Porter Rockwell had he been a cold-blooded assassin. I thoroughly believe that he was a "Destroying Angel", one that held the opposition of Mormonism from overtaking what meager beginnings we had. Joseph Smith held him as a close and dear friend. PR reminds me of Joshua, minus the whole prophet thing. Joseph Smith also recieved revelation about PR, he said(in short)"As long as you faith is strong in the Lord, you will never fear your enemies." And I don't think he ever did.