Guest pogi Posted October 3, 2011 Report Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) Thanks semiraysnoozer, I have enjoyed this conversation as well. The reason I am so passionate about it is because I have been in the grips of addiction. I know the "pull of the flesh" that you speak of better than the average person. For this reason, it is hard for me to budge an inch, because I once held the same views that you have. While similar as they may be, the consequences are drastic. I contended against the flesh for many years and it got me nowhere. It only brought deeper shame and a deflated self-worth as relapse after relapse occured. I thought my spirit was strong enough, I was wrong! It wasn't until the Lord guided me to examine my heart that I discoverd the root of my addiction. It was not a problem of the flesh after all, it was a sick, deflated spirit. The flesh was simply a means of filling a spiritual hole. In my case, both shame and pride coexisted in an ironic fellowship which led me to seek false security through fantasy bonds (pornography). I had to admit that "I have no control" over my addiction before true healing could happen. I had to let go of my prideful belief in the integrity of my spirit and let Christ take over. I like that quote by Joseph Wirthlin that you offer: "the world sees the outside, the Lord sees the inside." This is because the battle is on the inside. This is where victory or defeat happens. The acts of the flesh are nothing more than symptoms of the condition of the spirit. The flesh has no real power! Satan often deceives well meaning Christians to look on the outside (contend with/overcome the flesh) while he thrashes the spirit unawares. Forget about the flesh and its weakness and assess your heart, your spirit, and its weakness. The more you fight against your holy temple, the more he laughs as you tear down and defame the sanctuary of true healing, the temple of the spirit of God. We have contended with it and defiled it enough through the unholy beliefs of the spirit. It is time we start building it up by looking on the inside, as Christ does, not the outside. This is our foundation. My body is not my enemy, it is my ally in the war against Satan. It is the victim, not the perpetrator. It is a resource, not a hinderance in our persuit of God. We simply need to learn how to use them properly, this only happens in the battle ground of the spirit. The flesh is a decoy. Edited October 3, 2011 by pogi Quote
Guest pogi Posted October 3, 2011 Report Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) To James12, Your body cannot rule over your spirit. This is not doctrinal. The body is not a threat to the spirit. It is your spirit that violates the flesh and defiles the temple, not the other way around; but I think that I have made this very clear in my previous posts. Christ was not worried about the temple defiling the money changers, he was worried about the money changers defiling the temple! The outside was not corrupt, it was the inside. Edited October 3, 2011 by pogi Quote
Vort Posted October 3, 2011 Report Posted October 3, 2011 While I like that saying, it is not to be taken literally. It is simply pointing to the truth that fleshly desires can be good or bad.Actually, I believe it is literal. Our spirits are from God and respond to Godly things. Our bodies are of the dust and respond (by definition) to carnal things, which Satan uses to entice. Those who follow their carnal lusts lose the Spirit. Those who follow the promptings of the Spirit overcome the flesh. This is scriptural doctrine, taught not just in the Bible but in all scripture.Our flesh and its desires get a bad wrap that they don't deserve!I disagree. That is, I do not believe that our Church or its leaders give a bad rap to fleshly desires.Give our bodies a break people, they, nor their desires can be our masters.I have seen and known too many people ruled by their carnal appetites to believe this. Quote
Seminarysnoozer Posted October 3, 2011 Report Posted October 3, 2011 It wasn't until the Lord guided me to examine my heart that I discoverd the root of my addiction. It was not a problem of the flesh after all, it was a sick, deflated spirit. The flesh was simply a means of filling a spiritual hole. In my case, both shame and pride coexisted in an ironic fellowship which led me to seek false security through fantasy bonds (pornography). I had to admit that "I have no control" over my addiction before true healing could happen. I had to let go of my prideful belief in the integrity of my spirit and let Christ take over. Thanks. I have some experience with this too as I was a nurse on a neurology ICU floor for many years and have seen many diseases that cause people to not be themselves. I am happy for your victory! I am sure you are the better person for it. I would propose to you, again, that we are talking about the same things even though it is just semantics. If the spirit is sick or deflated, the body takes over. If the spirit is not flying the plane, the autopilot takes over (every person having a different autopilot tailored for their test here). I think that process of letting Christ take over, which is through the spirit and opposed by pride is the process of not letting the natural man hold control as best we can. The whole reason this conversation came about is because it was proposed that somehow we can redo the test that takes place here after Kingdom assignment. I don't think we will ever have this kind of test again because the test is created by the corrupted body and world we are in. Once eternally secured to a perfect body, that set of temptations and challenges will no longer be. Come unto my rest. This is our one chance to show who we really are and learn from this kind of challenge only found in this type of setting. We don't believe in reincarnation, it can't be redone. Quote
Guest pogi Posted October 3, 2011 Report Posted October 3, 2011 Vort, God made our spirits from matter that he created. God made our bodies from matter that he created. Are they not both from God and respond to him? Yes, Satan uses flesh to entice us, but only after a well orchestrated attack on the spirit. Give me one example of a man being controlled by his carnal appetietes, and I will show you a man with a spiritual problem not a physical one. Show me one scripture that says we need to overcome the flesh? Overcoming the lusts of the flesh is different. The lusts of the flesh is a symptom of a sick spirit. SS, I agree that there will be no retest. Cool, I am also a nurse. Man will not be held accountable for a bodily defect. The body does not take over, Satan does. I'm done guys, but thanks for the ride! Quote
Vort Posted October 4, 2011 Report Posted October 4, 2011 God made our spirits from matter that he created. God made our bodies from matter that he created.Not so, at least not if by "created" you mean the larger (and false) Christian idea of "zapped into existence out of nothing". D&C 93:33 "...the elements are eternal..."Are they not both from God and respond to him? Yes, Satan uses flesh to entice us, but only after a well orchestrated attack on the spirit.Why obfuscate the issue? The scriptural teachings are clear. Is there a need for you to draw this particular line?Give me one example of a man being controlled by his carnal appetietes, and I will show you a man with a spiritual problem not a physical one.Give me one example of a man who died by disease, and I will show you that the man actually died because oxygen didn't reach his brain. Thus, I contend that all death is caused by oxygen deprivation to the brain, and all this talk about supposed "disease" is just nonsense that distracts from the real root of the problem.No, I don't think that works well.Show me one scripture that says we need to overcome the flesh? Overcoming the lusts of the flesh is different.No, it is not different. Nephi wrote, "my heart sorroweth because of my flesh," not "my heart sorroweth because of the lusts of my flesh". Earlier, he had written, "because of the weakness which is in me, according to the flesh, I would excuse myself.""The flesh" is shorhand for "the lusts of the flesh." I see no advantage in making a separation of the terms, especially when the scriptures make no such separation. Quote
Seminarysnoozer Posted October 4, 2011 Report Posted October 4, 2011 Man will not be held accountable for a bodily defect.Yes. This is why only God knows our "true self", our true nature as all of our bodies have a defect. Do you know anybody who does not have a defect? We all have a 'thorn in the flesh' of one kind or another. To me, a "bodily defect" is the same thing as saying a corrupted, fallen body as a result of the Fall of Adam. Quote
Traveler Posted October 4, 2011 Report Posted October 4, 2011 ... Give me one example of a man who died by disease, and I will show you that the man actually died because oxygen didn't reach his brain. Thus, I contend that all death is caused by oxygen deprivation to the brain, and all this talk about supposed "disease" is just nonsense that distracts from the real root of the problem.... Hmmmmm. If we want to be technical - it is my understanding that a person does not die unless the spirit leaves the body. The Traveler Quote
Seminarysnoozer Posted October 4, 2011 Report Posted October 4, 2011 Hmmmmm. If we want to be technical - it is my understanding that a person does not die unless the spirit leaves the body. The TravelerThen maybe that is a clue as to where and how the spirit communicates with the body, via the brain. The spirit leaving the heart, for example (i.e - heart transplant) does not kill a person or change who they are. Quote
pogi Posted October 4, 2011 Report Posted October 4, 2011 (edited) This will be my last post so I hope we can all agree on these few points of our discussion. So, in summary… We can only have one master, God or Satan; unless you are counting the flesh, then we can have two masters. And what a fearsome master the flesh is...literally! Our flesh is in "opposition to our spirit", yet our flesh obeys our spirit. We should "contend with the flesh"; AND love, respect, and protect our bodies. The flesh can control the spirit if we are not careful; yet the spirit controls the flesh, Period! Only our bodies are subject to the pull of sin; yet pride or shame (spiritual sin/death) is the driver of all physical sin (there really is no such thing). "Satan tempts the flesh while God speaks to the spirit"; yet Christ spoke to Lazurus' body and Satans most useful temptation is pride (temptation of the spirit). "Our spirits are pure and our flesh is corrupt"; yet spiritual death (corruption) happens before physical death. "Our bodies are a tool of the adversary"; yet our children are God’s creation and not the devils. "Carnal things lead only to carnality"; yet our carnal bodies are a holy temple for the Spirit of the Lord. "The body doesn’t provide spiritual growth any more than Satan"; yet Godhood is impossible without one. Our spirit is inclined toward God and our flesh is inclined toward Satan; yet God has a body of flesh and Satan is a spirit. The body has its own “force” and its own “pull”, in other words: the "temptations of the flesh"; yet we can only be tempted by the one or the other, meaning God or Satan. The body is responsible for the “works of the flesh”; yet our spirits will be held accountable. Always remember this: our bodies are a gift; so be sorrowful for the flesh. Finally: all disease related death is due to oxygen not reaching the brain; yet death does not happen until the spirit leaves the body. :) Edited October 4, 2011 by pogi Quote
pogi Posted October 4, 2011 Posted October 4, 2011 (edited) · Hidden Hidden Ooh a new one. Spiritual renewal is a mighty change of heart; yet the spirit communicates only to the brain. Edited October 4, 2011 by pogi
Seminarysnoozer Posted October 6, 2011 Report Posted October 6, 2011 (edited) This will be my last post so I hope we can all agree on these few points of our discussion.The flesh can control the spirit if we are not careful; yet the spirit controls the flesh, Period! We don't agree, but that is okay. Controlling and having a greater influence are two different things. For me, this was our biggest differing point. The spirit does not control the body and the body does not control the spirit. We are dual beings in this mortal life. Our life is like an airplane with two pilot seats. If pilot-spirit takes the plane, the pilot-spirit is not controlling pilot-body and if pilot-body controls the plane that does not mean it is controlling pilot-spirit. The plane representing the actions of this life. There are many times where both pilots have control and even work in union. But if pilot-spirit let go of the controls then pilot-body would take the plane in the wrong direction. Pilot-body doesn't have to grab pilot-spirits hands to control the plane or convince the pilot-spirit to do anything. All the pilot-body has to do is to what for pilot-spirit to let down his guard and slightly let loose of the steering. It doesn't have to control the other pilot. If the pilot-spirit gets tired or lets down his guard, he may over time decide just to go along with what the pilot-body is doing and in that way learn to like how the pilot-body does things and then go along with it. That is still a choice for the pilot-spirit, it wasn't "controlled". One pilot being a stronger influence over the other is not being "controlled" it is just having a greater influence in the output, the actions of this life. Luckily, we choose who we want to give power too, that is the test but the body in this life is always stronger than the spirit, at least in the beginning, as we all crash the plane (we all die) and we all sin (get pulled off course). Edited October 6, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer Quote
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