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I Have 6 Questions....

JoshuaFKon

By JoshuaFKon
in LDS Gospel Discussion

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Ray

Ray

Posted
Posted

<div class='quotemain'>

I'm sorry you believe my site is Anti-Mormon

That's because it is. I'm just stating facts.

Why don't you answer them?

I've seen people answering you quite well, and watched you dance around the answers because they don't fit your agenda. You don't want any "answers"; your mind was made up before you came here.

It's hard to avoid the fact that EricM's post on the first page contained links that answer every one of "your" questions. http://www.fairlds.org/apol :hmmm:

Read the links on my site for your answers. There's more than enough there to satisfy you. B)

Sometimes I think I should post a lot less to see what some others will say... there are lots of good posts on this website... and sometimes I think I should post what I think because nobody has posted what I think... only God knows who would if I didn't... and sometimes I think that I should just say that God is there to bare what is the truth... there is nobody here who can bear what is truth without love for God and what He tells them.

It's a dilemna, sometimes, but it's still a lot of fun to see what gets posted when it's good. :)

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Dr T

Dr T

Posted
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... there is nobody here who can bear what is truth without love for God and what He tells them.

untrue statement Ray. There are a lot of truth that come from people that do not know God. "Water is wet" for example. God doesn't have to tell you that.

Dr. T

Princess3dward

Princess3dward

Posted
Posted

... there is nobody here who can bear what is truth without love for God and what He tells them.

untrue statement Ray. There are a lot of truth that come from people that do not know God. "Water is wet" for example. God doesn't have to tell you that.

Dr. T

....... :glare: ....... that was mouthy! lol.

I think he means hard to answer questions, particularly about religion... like where will we go after death, and whatever.

Ray

Ray

Posted
Posted

... there is nobody here who can bear what is truth without love for God and what He tells them.

untrue statement Ray. There are a lot of truth that come from people that do not know God. "Water is wet" for example. God doesn't have to tell you that.

Dr. T

No, it's still true, you simply misunderstood what I meant... and what I know to be true.

All of us know God to a certain extent... whether we realize that fact or not... and the extent to which we know Him is the extent to which we know truth... because ALL truth comes ONLY from God.

And btw, whether you know it or not, you pray to God more than you realize. Anytime you want to know a truth, and accept what is true, you have accepted what God told you was truth.

Or in other words, nobody knows a truth because they have chosen to believe what Satan and others through his influence told them. We only know truth by relying on God and the messages He gives us through His influence.

Be still, and know who is God.

Dr T

Dr T

Posted
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Hi Ray,

I would agree that all truth is God's truth. The part I disagreed with was they they have to know God to know truth. :)

Dr. T

Ray

Ray

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Posted

Depends on the truth.

Sorry to have to disagree with you, Sweetie Pie (I'm not flirting, just trying to be cute).

All truth comes from God. We learn truth from God. Each and every thought that is true.

And btw, I think you're pretty cute too. :)

Princess3dward

Princess3dward

Posted
Posted

<div class='quotemain'>

Depends on the truth.

Sorry to have to disagree with you, Sweetie Pie (I'm not flirting, just trying to be cute).

All truth comes from God. We learn truth from God. Each and every thought that is true.

And btw, I think you're pretty cute too. :)

COOL! I AM CUTE! (I get that alot actually... but I love hearing it anyway!!!!)

*thinking about your post* I think it depends on the view you look at it from. :huh:

Like... we have a little more knowledge about how things are because of God, but someone maybe "Seeking truth" may think differently.

Also, I took a psychology (sp?) class, and basically learned (not attached to religion, so I thought this one through ALOT, and still have no real conclusion.... so I am just throwing this out there) that truth is "what is accepted among a group of people". I would come up with an example, but my dad shot my only good one down by saying that it was a myth that people thought the earth was flat... and I feel under pressure. lol.

I will get back with an example.. btw.. that was the point of view given by my teacher, not me.

Ray

Ray

Posted
Posted

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

Depends on the truth.

Sorry to have to disagree with you, Sweetie Pie (I'm not flirting, just trying to be cute).

All truth comes from God. We learn truth from God. Each and every thought that is true.

And btw, I think you're pretty cute too. :)

COOL! I AM CUTE! (I get that alot actually... but I love hearing it anyway!!!!)

*thinking about your post* I think it depends on the view you look at it from. :huh:

Like... we have a little more knowledge about how things are because of God, but someone maybe "Seeking truth" may think differently.

Also, I took a psychology (sp?) class, and basically learned (not attached to religion, so I thought this one through ALOT, and still have no real conclusion.... so I am just throwing this out there) that truth is "what is accepted among a group of people". I would come up with an example, but my dad shot my only good one down by saying that it was a myth that people thought the earth was flat... and I feel under pressure. lol.

I will get back with an example.. btw.. that was the point of view given by my teacher, not me.

Okay. Thank you for the clarification. I guess I should take this up with your teacher.

Or maybe you could just tell him/her for me, that truth is not:

"what is accepted among a group of people"

...at least not if they don't accept the truth.

Truth is simply what is, and what was, and what will be. That's it. That is truth.

Truth does not depend on what people think. Truth is what it is regardless.

I wonder who taught that teacher. :hmmm:

Princess3dward

Princess3dward

Posted
Posted

She is still taking psychology in university.

She is not a member of any church...just cause some of her theories would change...and make that a harder field to study.

I don't know... that definition is very general...

That is why I am soo unsure about it...

Ray

Ray

Posted
Posted

She is still taking psychology in university.

She is not a member of any church...just cause some of her theories would change...and make that a harder field to study.

I don't know... that definition is very general...

That is why I am soo unsure about it...

Well then ask God about that. He can even tell you the truth about the truth. :)
JoshuaFKon

JoshuaFKon

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Hello everyone :)

Sorry I havn't been on today, I'm sure you all missed me.... ;)

My Dad was taken to the Hospital Last Night....(He's doing fine now, and all the tests are good so far. I don' t think anything was wrong...but better to be on the safe side )

So we decied to come home from vacation early, So I've been driving, and unpacking all day.

A happier piece of news is someone answered one of my questions to my satisfation, and so I have removed it from my site.

See: http://joshuafkon.googlepages.com/josephsm...#39;sprophicies

"This Questions was answered to my satisfaction by Justin of http://justinodhans.googlepages.com (a pro-mormon site)

Finding Treasure in Salem, Massachusetts"

Josh B)

of course I'm still waiting for answer on the Book of Abraham....

Princess3dward

Princess3dward

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Posted

Hello everyone :)

Sorry I havn't been on today, I'm sure you all missed me.... ;)

Ofcourse we did. Today was too easy without you. I almost took a whole day off the foroms myself. :P

My Dad was taken to the Hospital Last Night....(He's doing fine now, and all the tests are good so far. I don' t think anything was wrong...but better to be on the safe side )

That is very scary.

I hope nothing goes wrong!

It may not seem like it at times, but we all are totally here for you!

Even me, although you definitly have suggested you don't like me. lol.

So we decied to come home from vacation early, So I've been driving, and unpacking all day.

That just sux!

A happier piece of news is someone answered one of my questions to my satisfation, and so I have removed it from my site.

I didn't think that was possible. :blink:

Have a good evening Josh!

JoshuaFKon

JoshuaFKon

Posted
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Sorry I havn't been on today, I'm sure you all missed me.... ;)

Ofcourse we did. Today was too easy without you. I almost took a whole day off the foroms myself. :P

Lol...well I'll be back on as soon as I can.... :)

That is very scary.

I hope nothing goes wrong!

It was scary last night at 2 in the morning...but He's doing fine.

It may not seem like it at times, but we all are totally here for you!

Thank you, appreciate that :)

Even me, although you definitly have suggested you don't like me. lol.

Me not like you?! :blink: You're one of my favorite people on this site! :) I really mean that. ( of course it would be nice if you read my posts)

A happier piece of news is someone answered one of my questions to my satisfation, and so I have removed it from my site.

I didn't think that was possible. :blink:

As long as the answers make sense...I'm a reasonable person (I hope)

Have a good evening Josh!

You too Desiré :)

Josh B)

Ray

Ray

Posted
Posted

Okay, Josh, I took a little more time to go over your comments.

I will read Nibley's Book as soon as I can,

That would be good. I recommend that. And I hope you will read it in the spirit of trying to understand all his knowledge, without finding fault with his lack of ALL knowledge.

…<do> you realize that the scroll you don't believe was the correct scroll was actually "attached" to Facsimile No.1?

Yes, I understand that is the claim that is being made. I’m saying that the scroll, or part of the scroll, attached to Facsimile No. 1 may not have been the scroll from which the Book of Abraham was translated.

For instance, the scroll (which may have been a piece or section of a larger scroll) attached to Facsimile No. 1 may have only been a copy or translation of the text in Facsimile No. 1… written by Egyptian or Hebrew scribes on another scroll, a scroll other than the original scroll written on by Abraham or by a scribe who received knowledge from Abraham… not the source for what’s written in the Book of Abraham.

Or in other words, the source of the text from which the Book of Abraham was written may have been another scroll not attached to Facsimile No. 1.

… it is clear that all the Church ever possessed were “Two rolls of papyrus” (i.e. “The writings of Abraham and Joseph”

That may be true, but let’s look at the evidence to see what we can see, shall we?

Here’s the evidence you offered to me, with my emphasis added instead of yours:

“On the 3d of July, Michael H. Chandler came to Kirtland to exhibit some Egyptian Mummies. There were four human figures, together with some two or more rolls of papyrus covered with hieroglyphic figures and deices. (History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 235, emphasis added.)

Okay, these facts came from a source known as the volume of books called “History of the Church”, an official publication of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the source of these facts was basically stating that two or more rolls of papyrus covered with hieroglyphic figures and deices were exhibited by someone named Michael Chandler who came to Kirtland.

“Soon after this, some of the Saints at Kirtland purchased the mummies and papyrus…and with W.W. Phelps and Oliver Cowdery as scribes, I commenced the translation…and much to our joy found that one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another, the writings of Joseph of Egypt.(Ibid., p. 236, emphasis added.)

Okay, these facts should be considered in light of the other facts stated… since these facts came from the same source… and this source was basically stating that, on the two or more rolls of papyrus exhibited in Kirtland, one contained the writings of Abraham, and another contained the writings of Joseph of Egypt. (the son of Jacob, aka Israel)

“Upon the subject of the Egyptian records, or rather the writings of Abraham and Joseph, I may say a few words. This record is beautifully written on papyrus with black, and a small part red, ink or paint, in perfect preservation. (Cowdery, op. cit., emphasis added.)

Okay, these facts came from a source other than the source of the first two quotes, a source identified as “Cowdery, op. cit.” The source is not clearly identified. The source may in fact be Oliver Cowdery, but without some more research I can’t tell for sure.

At this point I’ll entertain that possibility.

If the source is in fact none but Oliver Cowdery, Oliver was basically stating that the subject of the Egyptian records, or rather the writings of Abraham and Joseph, was beautifully written on papyrus with red and black ink or paint in perfect preservation.

.

“On opening the coffins he discovered that in connection with two of the bodies, were something rolled up with the same kind of linen, saturated with the same bitumen, which when examined probed to be two rolls of papyrus, previously mentioned. I may add that two or three other small pieces of papyrus, with astronomical calculations, epitaphs, &c. were found with other of the mummies . (Ibid, emphasis added)

Okay, these facts came from the same source as the last quote, and again, IF it was in fact Oliver Cowdery, Oliver was basically stating that the two rolls of papyrus previously mentioned were discovered along with two or three other small pieces of papyrus, with astronomical calculations, epitaphs, etc.

Cowdery proves that there were two, and only two, “rolls of papyrus,” which he believed, because of Joseph Smith’s identification of them, were “the writings of Abraham and Joseph, “though there were also a few fragments “similar to the astronomical representation” [i.e. Facsimile No. 2] with the papyri. –“By his own hand upon papyrus, p. 133.

Heh, not much source information is given, other than stating that it came from page 133 of a book titled “By his own hand upon papyrus”, and I don’t know who wrote that book. But aside from the point that I really don’t know who I’m hearing from, the fact that only two rolls were discovered with writings from Abraham and Joseph doesn’t mean the records some Egyptologists found recently were those two rolls with those writings.

Or in other words, the rolls the Egyptologists found recently could have been some of those “two or three other small pieces of papyrus” (or sections of rolls) that Oliver, if it was Oliver, said contained astronomical calculations, epitaphs, etc… which may have included Facsimile No. 1 and anything else that was attached to that scroll or piece of scroll.

If I had my scanner I think I could prove that at least the Book of Joseph is not really a "Book of Joseph"

Heh, do we (LDS) even have a “Book of Joseph”???

What on Earth are you talking about now???

p.s. I just read your comment about your Dad. I hope you and your family are now doing well. :)

JoshuaFKon

JoshuaFKon

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Ray,

Thanks for your post, I'll answer as soon as I can...but I just found out my Dad is being taken to Philidelphia for more tests....So it may be quite some time before I can answer.

Thanks

Josh

Princess3dward

Princess3dward

Posted
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( of course it would be nice if you read my posts)

You write alot! I read the short ones!! I will try though...

If I had my scanner I think I could prove that at least the Book of Joseph is not really a "Book of Joseph"

Heh, do we (LDS) even have a “Book of Joseph”???

What on Earth are you talking about now???

I was thinking that to... I said nothing though..

Thanks for your post, I'll answer as soon as I can...but I just found out my Dad is being taken to Philidelphia for more tests....So it may be quite some time before I can answer.

No hurry.

Help him get well!

JoshuaFKon

JoshuaFKon

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Desiré,

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
If I had my scanner I think I could prove that at least the Book of Joseph is not really a "Book of Joseph"

Heh, do we (LDS) even have a “Book of Joseph”???

What on Earth are you talking about now???

I was thinking that to... I said nothing though..

The Book of Joseph, was the other scroll found with the Book of Abraham, Joseph Smith identified it as the Book of Joseph (of Egypt) However, he died before he got the chance to translated it.

The pictures discribed in it match the other papyrus scroll re-discovered with the book of Abraham.

I will get them up as soon as possible but, since I'm sure someone would argue about it...I just don't feel up to arguring right now....

josh :(

Princess3dward

Princess3dward

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josh :(

*pats back.* It is okay.

I will do my own research on it to see if I come up with anything..

but... to my knowledge, it doesn't exist.

I will see what I find... okay?

Where did the shades go?

EDIT for Josh :(: Josh B)

There we go!

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