Regarding Stephen seeing a physical God

[mikbone]

But representations of the Father are more problematic. It seems to me that most artists choose to avoid depicting the Father at all. Seems like I read something very recently saying that Church-approved productions must avoid all physical depiction of the Father (i.e. voice is okay, but no apparitions).

Excepting of course, the temple...

[Juan_P]

Juan_P

Yes, I understand that to be the LDS view, my point is that Gen 1:26 God clearly says man was made in "Our image, after Our likeness" NOT just the image of the Father but also the in the image of the Son and Holy Spirit, and they did not have bodies of flesh and bone, so whatever is meant by image and likeness cannot be a physical body.

That is implied in your view but as you say nowhere is a heavenly mother mentioned in any scripture. Scripture in many places though does tell us that in fact Jesus created all things (John 1:3) (Col. 1:16-17) etc. and surely had to be one of the "Us" mentioned in Gen 1:26 Who"s image you and I are made in.

Thanks

Maybe one way of looking at that, but why can't you and I be made in the 'image' of a spirit that is the image of God, the Spirit that resides in an immoratal body? Spirits have to look like something too and our belief is that they look just like a mortal does with hands, feet, tongue etc etc. So we could be in the image of Jesus the spirit who is also in the image of God the Father the spirit inside an immortal body...

but remember that all our dealings with God and the Godhead are all between our spirit and God's spirit, with our bodies -mortal for us and immortal for the Father- not taking part in that exchange.

Jesus did create this world, we claim under the direction of the Father, but Jesus is that verb John speaks of who made all things we see here in mortality. And yes, he was one of the 'us' mentioned in Genesis, but they also mention in there 'male and female' and Jesus isn't both, so somewhere there has to be a female around.

Note that our 'extra' scriptures like the book of mormon or doctine and covenantes also do not mention a heavenly mother. In fact the first time heavenly parents are mentioned formally (not in same vague talk) is in the recent declaration on the family where our 'apostles and prophets' state in '95, very succinctly, about our heavenly parents, and implying that its the explanation for Gen 1: 26 however no one wants to push this too much because God doesn't push this either but demands we worship him as the Father through Jesus as our mediator and advocate by the power of the Holy Ghost ie a spiritual exchange and not a physical one.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Juan_P

[Soninme]

Maybe one way of looking at that, but why can't you and I be made in the 'image' of a spirit that is the image of God, the Spirit that resides in an immoratal body?

I agree we are a spirit and we will exist after death, until the resurrection, without a physical body.

Spirits have to look like something too and our belief is that they look just like a mortal does with hands, feet, tongue etc etc.

Not sure what the Holy Spirit looks like in the LDS view or for that matter Satan and other angels who are "ministering spirits", (Heb. 1:7) for spirits don't have the things you mentioned. Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

Jesus did create this world, we claim under the direction of the Father, but Jesus is that verb John speaks of who made all things we see here in mortality.

Not sure what you mean here.

And yes, he was one of the 'us' mentioned in Genesis, but they also mention in there 'male and female' and Jesus isn't both, so somewhere there has to be a female around.

God, Who is Father , Son and Holy Spirit, is Spirit (John 4:24) and is neither male nor female.

Adam was made in the image of God from the dust of the ground, Eve was made from Adam’s rib and so is also made in the image of God.

[Guest gopecon]

"The Father, Son and Holy Spirit talk to each other throughout the Bible. They are distinct persons. We do not deny this. So, though God is one, when Jesus speaks to the Father, God is not speaking to himself." - PrisonChaplain

PC - based on this statement of yours, and others in many threads here I want to see if I can clarify my understanding a bit. Are the primary differences between LDS and Trinitarian understanding of deity (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) that we believe that the Father has a body while you believe He is Spirit, and that Jesus was not created as a spirit child of the Father before this world, but was co-eternal with the Father? If I'm right here, couldn't many of our disputes over this issue be resolved with the understanding that "one God" to a Trinitarian is essentially the same statement as there is one "Godhead" to a Mormon (as the Trinitarian's God encompasses 3 persons)? Could much of this debate be the result of misunderstood semantics, rather than big differences?

I do understand that our (LDS) view of the nature of God and eternal progression is different, as we believe that we are not just His creations, but His children who were created spiritually before this Earth, and who can progress to become like Him to some degree. Taking that issue aside, I don't think we are as far apart as many think with regard to the makeup of the Godhead/Trinity.

[Juan_P]

I agree we are a spirit and we will exist after death, until the resurrection, without a physical body.

I agree with this too.

Not sure what the Holy Spirit looks like in the LDS view or for that matter Satan and other angels who are "ministering spirits", (Heb. 1:7) for spirits don't have the things you mentioned.

For us they are all just as humans but of spirit matter or material or whatever a spirit is made off; we aren't told what they are made off except that it is 'spirit' that will either look like a man or a woman if its a 'she'.

Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

Here, as we understand this to be, that Jesus was pointing out the He was of flesh and bones and the apostles could touch his hands, and spirits aren't of flesh and bones, but a substance mortals cannot touch nor normally see. He wasn't pointing out that the spirit is formless, wasn't the point of the discussion, from the LDS point of view or understanding of this text.

"Jesus did create this world, we claim under the direction of the Father, but Jesus is that verb John speaks of who made all things we see here in mortality.

Not sure what you mean here."

That we basically agree that Jesus was the creator of the world and just about the entire universe we know off. Ie we do agree with traditional christianity that Jesus is the creator but differ in saying that he did so under the direction of God the Father. So both could be considered creators in different ways and scenarios or in different definitions. The 'Verb' is from John 1.

God, Who is Father , Son and Holy Spirit, is Spirit (John 4:24) and is neither male nor female.

Yes, he is a Spirit but inside an immortal body just as we are Spirit inside a mortal body. Doesn't say anything about gender though. Note that John 4 is talking about prayer, ie that it is our spirit that prays to or communicates with God's spirits and our body or God's body doesn't take part in the equation. As to gender: Why? God has always been addressed to as 'he' not 'she'.

And Adam was made in the image of God from the dust of the ground, Eve was made from Adam’s rib and so is also made in the image of God.

If he was made in the image of something then that image is something to view and see or it is not an image. Maybe then in that scripture, as in others, were only a generic God term is used and not God the Father, maybe it refers to our heavenly parents ie God: a Father and Mother together, since we are in their image. If the situation was considered in a mortal setting there would be no misunderstanding -we are in the image of our biological parents. So for me, and many LDS but not all, when Adam is made in the image of God then he is actually being created in the image of his parents: a mother and father or 'God'. Off course for this point of view one would have to start accepting a polytheistic view of eternity where there are at least four God's : the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, and a Mother who is also at that level to be able to create life.

Here , once again, we start to see why we mormon's aren't a part of traditional christianity since the 4 Gods view would be heresy to most christian ministers even though most ordinary rank and file christians would probably say it makes sense!