peteolcott Posted November 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 That does not answer my question. I can take these words precisely without having to treat them as a precise mathematical specification. I am not really impressed by you direct revelation bit either. I am not required to believe any revelation contradicting established doctrine unless it comes from the Lord's designated and authorised representative on this earth. You'll have to do better to establish the validity of your prooftext for panentheism. Watch the video below. Is he really saying that the bathroom does not, has never, and never will exist? I can provide plenty of examples of how "one" in the Bible and the world surrounding it was not a precise mathematical specification.The bible confirms what I say in many ways. It is okay if you don't accept it very few ever will, except in the dispensation of the fulness of times when it becomes utterly undeniable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volgadon Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Isaiah 45:6 I am the Lord and there is none else. (Nothing besides God exists)Read v. 5 & 7 for the context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteolcott Posted November 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Read v. 5 & 7 for the context.Two Hebrew bible scholars agree with the meaning that I have proposed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volgadon Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Two Hebrew bible scholars agree with the meaning that I have proposed.Names? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteolcott Posted November 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Names?Stan Udd at the Grace University of the Bible and someone else on a Jewish newsgroup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volgadon Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Stan Udd at the Grace University of the Bible and someone else on a Jewish newsgroup.You mean a Stan Udd who is nowhere on the faculty or staff of Grace University and an anonymous individual on a nameless Jewish newsgroup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volgadon Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Ok, I need to make a correction, Stan Udd seems to have been a professor of Bible, but all his degrees are theology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteolcott Posted November 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Ok, I need to make a correction, Stan Udd seems to have been a professor of Bible, but all his degrees are theology.Yes. He was their Hebrew bible scholar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volgadon Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Yes. He was their Hebrew bible scholar.Not all that impressive when we consider that he has degrees in a field not known for rigorous biblical scholarship and worked at an institution not known for rigorous biblical scholarship, to say the least. Where has he supported your reading and who is the anonymous individual? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteolcott Posted November 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Not all that impressive when we consider that he has degrees in a field not known for rigorous biblical scholarship and worked at an institution not known for rigorous biblical scholarship, to say the least. Where has he supported your reading and who is the anonymous individual?Like I already said, ultimately it is only the confirmation by the Holy Spirit that counts. It is the fact that Mormons are so good at this that I am drawn to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volgadon Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Like I already said, ultimately it is only the confirmation by the Holy Spirit that counts. It is the fact that Mormons are so good at this that I am drawn to them.Smacks of a dodge. If you have sources supporting your reading, please provide them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytebear Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Prophet trumps professor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteolcott Posted November 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Prophet trumps professor.God trumps man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteolcott Posted November 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 Smacks of a dodge. If you have sources supporting your reading, please provide them.The Holy Spirit has confirmed it. Choose to disbelieve if that is what you want to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunkyTown Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 The Holy Spirit has confirmed it. Choose to disbelieve if that is what you want to do.Thank you for your permission, Pete. That is exactly what I will choose to do: I will choose to disbelieve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volgadon Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 The Holy Spirit has confirmed it. Choose to disbelieve if that is what you want to do.So why bring up scholars then in the first place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteolcott Posted November 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 So why bring up scholars then in the first place?Because you suggested that I had not studied the verses well enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volgadon Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Because you suggested that I had not studied the verses well enough.Why would a vague appeal to authority help out any? Where has Udd supported your reading and who is that anonymous scholar on a Jewish newsgroup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteolcott Posted November 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Why would a vague appeal to authority help out any? Where has Udd supported your reading and who is that anonymous scholar on a Jewish newsgroup?You suggested that I had not even bothered to read the verse in its context. In actuality I spend very many hours researching the orginal Hebrew. I found the single unifying thread (of meaning) that unites every major religion (except atheism) to the same essential message. The Holy spirit will confirm this as long as your mind is not closed by a disbelief system. I have been going to the Mormon church every week for three years specifically because I find them the most open minded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volgadon Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 You suggested that I had not even bothered to read the verse in its context.What I was suggesting is that the context does not support your reading. In essence, you have divorced it from the preceding and following verses. In actuality I spend very many hours researching the orginal Hebrew.How very nice. We can definitely go down this path. I've been reading it in Hebrew since 2nd grade. That would make it close to 20 years.I found the single unifying thread (of meaning) that unites every major religion (except atheism) to the same essential message. Panentheism is certainly widespread, but you are overstating your case.The Holy spirit will confirm this as long as your mind is not closed by a disbelief system. Or as long as it is not false.I have been going to the Mormon church every week for three years specifically because I find them the most open minded.Good for you.Why the reluctance to actually support your position with the sources you appealed to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteolcott Posted November 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Prophet trumps professor.God trumps any human, including prophets. It does seem that the current prophet is doing a very good job though. I base this on a single quote:"May I speak first about the courage to refrain from judging others."This single quote is almost enough for me to conclude that Thomas S. Monson is a true prophet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteolcott Posted November 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 What I was suggesting is that the context does not support your reading. In essence, you have divorced it from the preceding and following verses. How very nice. We can definitely go down this path. I've been reading it in Hebrew since 2nd grade. That would make it close to 20 years.Panentheism is certainly widespread, but you are overstating your case.Why the reluctance to actually support your position with the sources you appealed to?So then God himself is an insufficient source? God has confirmed this to me hundreds of times in dozens of ways. Are you reluctant to test this source? I am not proposing pantheismPantheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaWhat I am proposing is more along the lines of John Lennon's famous song: Imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volgadon Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 So then God himself is an insufficient source? God has confirmed this to me hundreds of times in dozens of ways.You see, God has confirmed the opposite to me more than once. When I served a mission I never told someone that they had to believe in the restoration because God told me so. I always said that they shouldn't believe based on my experiences, but should pray and wait confirmation from God. If they had questions I was never afraid to discuss it rationally with people.Are you reluctant to test this source? I am not, but why won't you say where Udd supports your reading, and who that anonymous scholar is? I am not proposing pantheismPantheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaWhat I am proposing is more along the lines of John Lennon's famous song: Imagine.I said panENtheism, not pantheism. It is exactly what you are proposing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteolcott Posted November 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 You see, God has confirmed the opposite to me more than once. When I served a mission I never told someone that they had to believe in the restoration because God told me so. I always said that they shouldn't believe based on my experiences, but should pray and wait confirmation from God. If they had questions I was never afraid to discuss it rationally with people.I am not, but why won't you say where Udd supports your reading, and who that anonymous scholar is?I asked Stan whether or not Isaiah 45:6 is saying that {Only God exists, and that nothing besides God exists} and he agreed that it what I was saying this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volgadon Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 I asked Stan whether or not Isaiah 45:6 is saying that {Only God exists, and that nothing besides God exists} and he agreed that it what I was saying this.Thank you. Was it really that hard?So it was a private conversation, not anything that can be examined or verified.Who is the anonymous scholar?Since I don't believe in appeal to authority, lets discuss the verses, see if your reading is justified. I'm sure that with all of your hours of Hebrew study you won't mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.