Are Temple ceremonies derived from Freemasonry?

[livy111us]

I would again disagree with you. I believe Literski takes a more unfaithful view on the endowment to justify his alternative lifestyle. His review has as many holes as he claims are in Matt's book

I'll write more tomorrow when I'm not typing on my phone which is very difficult

[livy111us]

OK, I'm back home again. Thanks for your patience. In regards to the Literski review on Amazon, I will address a few points. But before I start, I think it should be known that Matt's book was never meant to be exhaustive by any stretch of the imagination. As mentioned earlier, he has 20x the material that he did not publish in that book due to the directive of the publisher, writing a book instead of a 12-part encyclopedia, and being able to address an audience that is mostly made up of people who are not well-versed in the Mormon/Masonry controversy. So some of his arguments would have been answered if Matt was able to publish what he wanted to publish.

My comments will be in red, while Literski's in black.

The title given to this ‘review’ by the ‘reviewer’ on Amazon.com is: “Same Old Arguments, New Costumes and Makeup.” This is a remarkably uninformed claim and shows how little the ‘reviewer’ understands about the text he is ‘reviewing.’ All of chapter 3 is new (pp. 42–68); all of chapter 5 is new (pp. 86–103); chapter 7 has lots of new information throughout it (pp. 126–70); appendix 1 has never been done before (pp. 172–78). And then there is material presented in such places as pp. 30–31; p. 37 nt. 10; p. 60 nt. 35; p. 63 nt. 66; p. 64 nt. 75; p. 65 nt. 83; p. 66 nt. 84; p. 82; pp. 108–112; pp. 114–16; 118 nt. 15; p. 122 nt. 71. Thus, the basic premise behind this entire ‘review’ is bogus.

Literski wrote "Suggesting that it is “not possible” for the current volume to address every aspect of his topic, Brown assures his readers that he will deal with the “core” issues."

As mentioned earlier, this really was *not* possible. The author was strictly told by the publisher *not* to deal with certain subjects. If someone wants to get their book into Deseret Book, they had better follow certain watered down guidelines.

Literski "For example, Brown refers to a candidate in the three essential degrees of Masonic initiation as being “given a piece of clothing that is modified as he progresses through these rites,” evidently referring to the distinct folding (not “modification”) of a white apron in each degree."

However, synonyms of ‘modify’ include ‘adjust,’ ‘alter,’ ‘change’ and ‘transform’ – which is precisely what happens to the apron as the Mason passes through each degree. A pretty lame argument on Literski's part, yet he tries to make it into a big deal in order to dismiss Matt's book.

Literski "While such misconceptions might be forgivable, coming from a non-Mason, Brown reveals his true intent How does Literski know what Matt's "true intent" was? Is he a mindreader? of vilifying the Fraternity Contrary to this accusation, Matt has spoken highly of masonry in prior radio interviews, books, DVD's and in personal conversation. Literski is trying to put words in Matt's mouth

Twice in this chapter, Brown claims, without citing any source, that “many (but not all) forms of Freemasonry” involve expectations that Masonic initiation will enable the candidate to enter the presence of deity This is from 1800’s and modern ritual texts. Matt's book states explicitly that it will not be an expose’ of Masonic ritual so no Masonic ritual sources were cited within it (since Masonic secrets are revealed within them). Brown takes pains to emphasize this false claim “we are taught, in the ritual of the First Degree, that, ‘by the lambskin the Mason is reminded of that purity of life and rectitude of conduct which is so essentially necessary to his gaining admission into the Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe forever presides’” (Mackey, Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, 1:96) Likewise, Brown alleges that the “fundamental natures” of Freemasonry and Mormonism are “completely opposite each other,” claiming that while LDS temples are places of “profound religiosity,” discussion of religion is “forbidden” at “all times” in a Masonic lodge building “the United Grand Lodge of England and other regular Grand Lodges . . . ban the discussion of politics and religion at their meetings” (United Grand Lodge of England, Booklet, “Your Questions Answered,” 1999, 14 – on the UGLE website at the time of his book’s publication). Contrary to Brown’s criticism, Masonic ritual is built on a religious foundation Which is emphasized in Matt's book. How could Literski miss this major point? making extensive reference to the Holy Bible. While Freemasons do refrain from discussing religion in a partisan manner during lodge meetings, in order to avoid contention between brothers, it is both false and absurd to claim that all discussion of religion is “forbidden” within the building see the quote above. The discussion of politics and religion was "banned" Further, notwithstanding Brown’s promise to avoid specific discussion of Masonic ritual I don't recall Matt making any such promise. But despite that, Literski earlier said that Matt claimed he would not “inappropriately discuss” such things. Which is it, Literski? he employs a footnote of two full pages to list alleged “elements in the first three Masonic initiation ceremonies that have no connection whatsoever with Mormon ordinances.” Most of the listed “elements” are, in fact, specific references to the clothing, furnishings, words, and actions of Masonic ritual but they do not include the secret modes of recognition Here too, Brown misrepresents the Fraternity, making it falsely appear that Masons worship “the ancient pagan deity called Fides,” REALLY!?!?! Pages 22–24 of his book identifies elements mentioned in a 19th century historical source written by a Freemason – THERE IS NO USE OF THE WORD “WORSHIP” and engage in political discussions during their degree ceremonies p. 23 of his book only has the word “politics” as an element mentioned in a 19th century ritual text written by a Freemason. THERE IS NO USE OF THE WORD “DISCUSSION.” The United Grand Lodge of England website, as of September 2010, says specifically – “The discussion of politics at Masonic meetings has always been prohibited” (Frequently Asked Questions).

Anyway, it goes on and on. It is lengthy and this would turn into a book itself if I continue, but I just wanted to show that Literski's "review" isn't as accurate as he'd like you to think. He has left the Church and is openly gay. Perhaps he just wants to believe the Church is not true so he doesn't have the guilt associated with sin. If you'd like me to continue please let me know.

Edited January 24, 2012 by livy111us

[HiJolly]

Nick's story is his own -- and you are correct that he is now living an openly gay lifestyle. This is one reason why he has passed on the manuscript for his book "Method Infinite" to Joe Swick for completion.

And clearly Nick's 'bad' experience in and with the Church has deeply colored his comments, here and elsewhere. He is pretty bitter about the Church, IMO (which he denies). But I would caution folks to avoid the ad hominem fallacy that these things mean his scholarship is lacking in accuracy or rigor. His attitude aside, his knowledge of Freemasonry is exceptional, specifically in regard to the Church.

HiJolly

[livy111us]

I didn't base the comments above on his lifestyle, but gave a possible reason why he was swayed against a more faithful conclusion, which is just that, a possibility. I (obviously) disagree with him and made sure I didn't use ad hominem attacks in the comments above to show why I disagree with him, but used examples and evidence as to why I believe he is wrong on this subject.

[a-train]

I've read this many times. How much truth is there in it?

Completely. Joseph Smith just copied Masonic methods making many changes in the process.

[uniderth]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned these links yet. George Miller has done some AMAZING research into Freemasonry and Mormonism. I can't recommend this podcast series enough. George Miller as an active member of the Church and an active Freemason.

The first two links discuss the history of Freemasonry. The last four cover Masonry in relation to Mormonism. It covers from Joseph Smith, Jr.'s youth to the modern Church.

George Miller takes his covenants in the temple seriously and also his Masonic oaths. He discusses masonry in relation to Mormonism while at the same time maintain the sacredness of the temple endowments.

This is revolutionary research into Masonry and Mormonism.

Episode 144a: Mormonism and Masonry: The Background Part 1

Episode 144b: Mormonism and Masonry: The Background Part 2

Episode 145a: Mormonism and Masonry: Into the Restoration Part 1

Episode 145b: Mormonism and Masonry: Into the Restoration Part 2

Episode 149: Mormonism and Masonry part 3: The Book of Abraham and Nauvoo

Episode 152: Mormonism and Masonry part 4: Joseph Smith and Beyond

[cwald]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned these links yet. George Miller has done some AMAZING research into Freemasonry and Mormonism. I can't recommend this podcast series enough. George Miller as an active member of the Church and an active Freemason.

The first two links discuss the history of Freemasonry. The last four cover Masonry in relation to Mormonism. It covers from Joseph Smith, Jr.'s youth to the modern Church.

George Miller takes his covenants in the temple seriously and also his Masonic oaths. He discusses masonry in relation to Mormonism while at the same time maintain the sacredness of the temple endowments.

This is revolutionary research into Masonry and Mormonism.

Episode 144a: Mormonism and Masonry: The Background Part 1

Episode 144b: Mormonism and Masonry: The Background Part 2

Episode 145a: Mormonism and Masonry: Into the Restoration Part 1

Episode 145b: Mormonism and Masonry: Into the Restoration Part 2

Episode 149: Mormonism and Masonry part 3: The Book of Abraham and Nauvoo

Episode 152: Mormonism and Masonry part 4: Joseph Smith and Beyond

+1

These podcasts were amazing and gives one a lot of detailed facts WITH REFERENCES, about how Masonry was started, where they came from, and when, and what their ceremonies entails --- and how they relate to Joseph Smith's beliefs and the temple endowment.

From the George Miller perspective, who is an active LDS members and high ranking mason --- the pre-1990 LDS temple ceremony and the mason ceremonies are strikingly similar in there rituals, wordage and symbolism.

[HiJolly]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned these links yet. George Miller has done some AMAZING research into Freemasonry and Mormonism. I can't recommend this podcast series enough. George Miller as an active member of the Church and an active Freemason.

Thanks for the links. I enjoyed listening to these when they first came out. I am an acquaintance of "George", having 'met' him over 10 years ago on the internet, his perspective is refreshing and well informed.

I'm hoping his book will be published this year. Just as I've been hoping for the book "Method Infinite" to be published for (it seems like forever). Go Joe!!

HiJolly