Caitlyn Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 (edited) I've read this many times. How much truth is there in it? Edited November 20, 2011 by pam Links must be in the signature and not in the body of the message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 (edited) If you go to this site you'll find it has a wealth of information on a variety of questions: FAIR Website Guide You'll be able to get answers a lot quicker than here and then, if you still feel like you need more understanding, feel free to ask here with a bit of background to the question under your belt. If you do a search for "temple freemasonry" you'll get some articles that should give you some understanding on your question. Edited November 20, 2011 by Dravin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caitlyn Posted November 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 (edited) Ok thanks. Edited November 20, 2011 by pam Links must be in the signature and not in the body of the message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livy111us Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 There are similarities in less than, I'd say 2% of the endowment, but much of that can be found in ancient Christianity and Judaism. Here are a few resources which show the endowment to be ancient (pre-freemasonry)The Israelite Temple and the Early ChristiansLDS Temple EndowmentThe Temple in Time and Eternity by Donald W. Parry, and Stephen D. RicksRestoring the Ancient Church, Chapter 6Early Christian and Jewish Rituals Related to Temple PracticesThe Mormon Temple Ceremony and Mormon Temples: Temples, Mormons and Masons - The Authentic Ancient Nature of the LDS Templehttp://www.templestudy.com/2009/09/27/lord-speaks-ancient-temple-patterns-dc-124/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caitlyn Posted November 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Thanks. Certainly a lot of info there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annewandering Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 thats backwards for a simple answer. freemasons say they were holding the knowledge of the ceremonies to be used again at some future time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caitlyn Posted November 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 thats backwards for a simple answer. freemasons say they were holding the knowledge of the ceremonies to be used again at some future time.Freemasonic ceremonies were constantly being changed and rewritten anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annewandering Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 which is why they werent accurate even if they had gotten them from the ancient temple rites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytebear Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Symbols in Freemasonry have been around for a very long time. The all seeing eye for example is a freemason symbol, but it was also a symbol of ancient Egypt (perhaps adopted from Hebrew slaves. It is also on the one dollar bill, and on countless churches and religious buildings, and although not part of the temple ceremony, it is found on the Salt Lake Temple, along with a bunch of other symbols, like star, moon and sun stones. (Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars). The temple experience is very symbolic, and so is freemasonry. Some symbols of both can be found in other cultures/religions/rituals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitsuneFox Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 · Hidden Hidden I hate to sound like an old record, but I was watching a video on Youtube and came across this little anti-mormon/ex-mormon gem. The guy was asking this of the guy who posted the video: guy: How old are you dawg? Did you go through the temple when we still had to make ritual gestures of bloody, nasty suicide if we revealed the secret crap that Joseph Smith invented to scare and deceive people? Do you remember the fake phrase "Pay Lay Ale"? video poster: what the crap are you talking about? guy: Never mind. I just checked your channel. You're too young to remember the blood oaths from the temple ritual.. They were removed in 1992. There were three of them. One involved slitting our throats, another was cutting our hearts out, and the third was slashing our bellies open. Our own thumb symbolized the knife. They were symbolic of the punishment for talking about Smith's fake rituals outside of the temple. Ask an OLDER Ex-Mormon who went through the temple. Members will lie. video poster:That's not part of LDS doctrine whatsoever. Of course ex-mormons are gonna talk crap about it anyways...by the way, the age I gave to youtube is not my actual age. I am MUCH older than it says because I do not want to give out my info. guy:So, let me ask you a question. Did you ever get a temple endowment in an LDS temple before 1992, yes or no? Are you calling me a liar? I'm not a liar. I'm an ex-Mormon who was offended by the temple ritual invented by Joseph Smith. Even after I left the church, I didn't talk about the temple ceremony even when people would ask me. But then I thought, I'm not in this cult anymore, why should I keep their secrets? I would do the same thing with a college fraternity, the Freemasons, the Elks Lodge, or any other childish crap. I hate ritual secrecy and cults of any kind, ESPECIALLY when accompanied by THREATS!! My guess is that this guy IS a liar but I want to make sure. Did anyone go to any kind of endowment ceremony before 1992? Link to comment
annewandering Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 We arent supposed to talk about temple rituals. I went to the temple in 1980 and no one threatened me anywhere. People will say about anything wont they. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beefche Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 Moderator warning: Be careful about what you post about temple ceremonies. If you have questions relating to a direct ceremony, phrase, or other specific temple ordinance, please go to the temple and inquire there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiJolly Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 I've read this many times. How much truth is there in it? A few things were borrowed. All of it was re-defined. Except maybe the 5 points of fellowship, which was borrowed straight across until it was removed in 1990. HiJolly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livy111us Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 A few things were borrowed. All of it was re-defined. Except maybe the 5 points of fellowship, which was borrowed straight across until it was removed in 1990. HiJollyI beg to differ. There is evidence of this being an ancient practice. I believe this information will be published this summer. Joseph Smith did not have to borrow or steal anything because it was a revealed ordinance from God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiJolly Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 I beg to differ. There is evidence of this being an ancient practice. I believe this information will be published this summer. Joseph Smith did not have to borrow or steal anything because it was a revealed ordinance from God.Never said it wasn't an ancient practice. An article written years ago by Arturo de Hoyos lays it out very clearly as to what happened, and in what timeframes. The Freemasons only used it as we did for about (IIRC) 30 years, and then made changes post 1844 that we did not make. So then at that point we were the only ones using it exactly as it had been, only we kept it going unchanged for over 150 years. HiJolly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livy111us Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 I think there is a disconnect between both camps (ancient for from freemasonry) on the origin of the endowment. I have called many people out after comments that they've made about the endowment coming from masonry, but after discussing the issue, they believe that masonry got it from Christianity or Judaism. Personally, I find it easier to believe and explain to say that the endowment is ancient and the masons borrowed from existing rituals when they came up with their ceremonies a few hundred years ago. I believe it isn't accurate to say that Joseph Smith borrowed from the masons, because both are pulling from an ancient source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jezebel2011 Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 I have a very good friend whom is a Freemason and has been for 30 years. Freemasonry dates back to the patriarch Noah. Not going to discuss the LDS Temple since we make covenants not to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beefche Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Freemasonry dates back to the patriarch Noah. I've never heard that before. Where do you get that information? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiJolly Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Freemasonry dates back to the patriarch Noah. In Joseph Smith's day, 99% of the Freemason believed this, some even going to Adam for the source of Freemasonry. Today, maybe 10% still believe this, because they don't believe the historical research of the past 100 years or so. Sad. Not going to discuss the LDS Temple since we make covenants not to do so.You made specific covenants not to reveal certain select portions of the endowment. About maybe 5% of the endowment, or less. HiJolly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annewandering Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Well I dont know what 5 % that might be. ^^ Better to 'err' on the side of caution and maybe not discuss any of them. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jezebel2011 Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 In Joseph Smith's day, 99% of the Freemason believed this, some even going to Adam for the source of Freemasonry. Today, maybe 10% still believe this, because they don't believe the historical research of the past 100 years or so. Sad. You made specific covenants not to reveal certain select portions of the endowment. About maybe 5% of the endowment, or less. HiJollyI was told NOT to reveal any of the Endowment to anyone, and I will stick by that.Nobody revealed any of the Endowment to me prior to my taking it for myself.I will certainly not discuss any of it with anyone, whether on an internet Forum or not.If you go into current Freemason history you will find that Noah is behind the practices and beliefs of the Freemasons - that is actual fact. Speak to someone whom is a Freemason and you will find out that it is true. Nothing to do with the history of the LDS Church or JS.You can look at the Freemasonry's own reference books - (Mackey, Lexicon of Freemasonry, page 324, 2004, Barnes and Noble Publishing, Inc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livy111us Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 There is A LOT of speculation on the exact origins of masonry, but it is a modern organization that is only a few centuries old. I am completely convinced that the ordinances are ancient and they borrowed from Christianity/Judaism, but they are religious ordinances not masonic ordinances. So one *could* make the argument that their rituals are ancient, but that does not mean the organization is ancient. The best book on the subject is written by the late Matthew Brown. He is/was the leading expert in freemasonry and Mormonism. This book discusses the origin of masonry and any possible connection with the endowment (which there is none). He has 20x the material in his personal notes that most will never see the light of day but other scholars are going through it to finish some of his work and publish this summer if all goes well.FAIR LDS Bookstore - Exploring the Connection Between Mormons and Masons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiJolly Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 The best book on the subject is written by the late Matthew Brown. He is/was the leading expert in freemasonry and Mormonism. This book discusses the origin of masonry and any possible connection with the endowment (which there is none). He has 20x the material in his personal notes that most will never see the light of day but other scholars are going through it to finish some of his work and publish this summer if all goes well.Honestly, I don't like disagreeing with you on these things, but I just can't in good conscience let this go. I really appreciate most of what Matthew Brown did, but his book on Masons & Mormons was just awful. Misleading comments, gaping holes of information he *could* have included but didn't, facts pertinent to the case but not mentioned -- it was just awful. The leading experts on Freemasonry & Mormonism are those who are, or who have been, members of both. I would cite Joe Steve Swick III, Nick Literski, Clinton Bartholomew and Arturo de Hoyos as just four who exceed Matthew Brown's knowledge and understanding of Freemasonry *and* who are, or have been, LDS. Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Exploring the Connection Between Mormons and Masons HiJolly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beefche Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 If you go into current Freemason history you will find that Noah is behind the practices and beliefs of the Freemasons - that is actual fact. How do you define fact? There are no records to show freemasonry is attributed to Noah. In fact, when I go to wikipedia, freemasonry, and askafreemason, none of them mention anything about Noah. They all mention masonry beginning sometime in the 16th or 17th centuries.Perhaps your point it more along the lines that masonry is not related to LDS temple ceremonies. If that is the case, then simply state that. But stating that masonry originates with Noah is not a fact. If you believe so, then please provide a reference. From your reference in your post, it states: Noachidae, Noachites. The descendents of Noah. A term applied to Freemasons. Noah having alone preserved the true name and worship of God, amid a race of impious idolaters. Freemasons claim to be his descendents, because they still preserve that pure religion which distinguished this second father of the human race from the rest of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason_J Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Honestly, I don't like disagreeing with you on these things, but I just can't in good conscience let this go. I really appreciate most of what Matthew Brown did, but his book on Masons & Mormons was just awful. Misleading comments, gaping holes of information he *could* have included but didn't, facts pertinent to the case but not mentioned -- it was just awful. The leading experts on Freemasonry & Mormonism are those who are, or who have been, members of both. I would cite Joe Steve Swick III, Nick Literski, Clinton Bartholomew and Arturo de Hoyos as just four who exceed Matthew Brown's knowledge and understanding of Freemasonry *and* who are, or have been, LDS. Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Exploring the Connection Between Mormons and Masons HiJollyHa! I was just about to recommend that book Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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