All things are present with God

[Colirio]

Seminary, I agree that we might be talking about two different things.

It seems that you are arguing that time exists and that it would be impossible for time not to exist. I'm not arguing.

The manual states it plainly and I simply tried to point out how it could be both scripturally based and scientifically sound.

The science is quantum physics and also theory of relativity.

The faster an object moves, the slower time passes for that object. Eventually, if an object moves fast enough, well beyond the speed of light, the object would eventually be able to travel into the past as well as the future. Eventually, given a certain speed, all time would be before the object at once; past, present, and future.

One thing that helped me was to see some scriptural basis for it.

The scriptures speak of being "quickened." Here are a couple for reference from the Guide to the Scriptures:

QUICKEN:

To make alive, to resurrect, or to change a person so that he can be in the presence of God.

God hath quickened us together with Christ, Eph. 2:4–5 (Col. 2:6, 12–13).

Christ was put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit, 1 Pet. 3:18 (D&C 138:7).

No man has seen God, except quickened by the Spirit, D&C 67:11

Redemption is through him that quickeneth all things, D&C 88:16–17

The Saints will be quickened and caught up to meet Christ, D&C 88:96

Adam became quickened in the inner man, Moses 6:65

If a Being were so quickened to such speeds as our Father in Heaven, all time would be before that Being at once. It is not that time ceases to exist, it is simply that all time is present at once.

Our Heavenly Father is not limited by time. If time were to pass the same for God as it does for us, then only the present exists. God would be guessing concerning the future because it hasn't happened yet. As you have agreed, however, time does not pass the same for God as it does for us.

To take it one step further is what is stated in the lesson manual and previously quoted by Jayanna:

Moses1:6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

In which the lesson manual then states:

Elder Neal A. Maxwell, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, explained: “God does not live in the dimension of time as do we. We are not only hampered by our finiteness (experiential and intellectual), but also by being in the dimension of time. Moreover, God, since ‘all things are present’ with him, is not simply predicting based solely on the past. In ways that are not clear to us, he sees rather than foresees the future, because all things are at once present before him” (Things As They Really Are [1978])

It states plainly that we are in the dimension of time. God is not.

It is not that time does not exist, it is that all time, past, present, and future are at once before him.

Whether or not you believe in this way is fine with me as it doesn't affect my salvation or faith one way or the other. I would rather discuss how such ideas could be plausible and how they potentially shed light on misunderstood teachings, however, rather than attempting to prove what we already know about the passage of time in our dimension. :)

Edited January 5, 2012 by Colirio

[Seminarysnoozer]

Seminary, I agree that we might be talking about two different things.

It seems that you are arguing that time exists and that it would be impossible for time not to exist. I'm not arguing.

The manual states it plainly and I simply tried to point out how it could be both scripturally based and scientifically sound.

The science is quantum physics and also theory of relativity.

The faster an object moves, the slower time passes for that object. Eventually, if an object moves fast enough, well beyond the speed of light, the object would eventually be able to travel into the past as well as the future. Eventually, given a certain speed, all time would be before the object at once; past, present, and future.

One thing that helped me was to see some scriptural basis for it.

The scriptures speak of being "quickened." Here are a couple for reference from the Guide to the Scriptures:

If a Being were so quickened to such speeds as our Father in Heaven, all time would be before that Being at once. It is not that time ceases to exist, it is simply that all time is present at once.

Our Heavenly Father is not limited by time. If time were to pass the same for God as it does for us, then only the present exists. God would be guessing concerning the future because it hasn't happened yet. As you have agreed, however, time does not pass the same for God as it does for us.

To take it one step further is what is stated in the lesson manual and previously quoted by Jayanna:

In which the lesson manual then states:

It states plainly that we are in the dimension of time. God is not.

It is not that time does not exist, it is that all time, past, present, and future are at once before him.

Whether or not you believe in this way is fine with me as it doesn't affect my salvation or faith one way or the other. I would rather discuss how such ideas could be plausible and how they potentially shed light on misunderstood teachings, however, rather than attempting to prove what we already know about the passage of time in our dimension. :)

Thanks for at least appreciating where I am coming from and seeing those differences. Even if you take a certain stance, I appreciate the discussion because it helps me work through the "why" a person believes one way or another and helps me develop my understanding. (I appreciate Jayana's discussion as well)

The issue about bringing in science to this discussion is that 1.) they are just theories and 2.) We believe that the "physics" of spiritual matter is different than our current material world. To assume that spiritual matter behaves and reacts in the same manner as our corrupted and maybe simple world is to assume a lot in my opinion.

As far as the Maxwell quote, I think if one reads that with the definition I gave above of "time" just referring to having a beginning and end, meaning "mortality" then it makes perfect sense without requiring any definition of the passage of time. To have an eternal view of things takes away the view that we have which is temporal. To see things through spiritual or eternal eyes is different than temporal vision. How our obedience and faith and work relates to the bigger picture of eternity would certainly change our view over the common temporal view of immediate gratification or doing things to better our temporal world. There is no need to apply an additional made-up description of this possibility that there is no passage of time.

"Being in the dimension of time" could simply mean a state in which there is a beginning and end, could it not? Why does it have to mean anything more than that? Being in this state of having a finite existence which includes having a veil and a corrupted body and everything that goes along with it obscures our view of things past and obscures our view of the eternities. The veil which goes along with this "dimension of time" does that.

Does God have a past? How can we talk about "God once was..." if there is no past? Does God have a future? How can we talk about eternal increase or eternal progression if there is no future? I think the concept of timelessness or no passage of time takes away these essential aspects of LDS gospel with that view and yet I see no benefit in ascribing to such a view.

If God can "see" everything in the past and in the future as if it was present but still experiences the passage of time, how does that lessen who God is from a view that time does not pass for God?

What additional quality am I missing that makes people so passionate about that view that I wouldn't get from a God that can "see" the past and future as if it is present but still experiences the passage of time, thus having a past and a future maintaining His ability to have eternal increase?

[jayanna]

Seminary, I agree that we might be talking about two different things.

It seems that you are arguing that time exists and that it would be impossible for time not to exist. I'm not arguing.

The manual states it plainly and I simply tried to point out how it could be both scripturally based and scientifically sound.

The science is quantum physics and also theory of relativity.

The faster an object moves, the slower time passes for that object. Eventually, if an object moves fast enough, well beyond the speed of light, the object would eventually be able to travel into the past as well as the future. Eventually, given a certain speed, all time would be before the object at once; past, present, and future.

One thing that helped me was to see some scriptural basis for it.

The scriptures speak of being "quickened." Here are a couple for reference from the Guide to the Scriptures:

If a Being were so quickened to such speeds as our Father in Heaven, all time would be before that Being at once. It is not that time ceases to exist, it is simply that all time is present at once.

Our Heavenly Father is not limited by time. If time were to pass the same for God as it does for us, then only the present exists. God would be guessing concerning the future because it hasn't happened yet. As you have agreed, however, time does not pass the same for God as it does for us.

To take it one step further is what is stated in the lesson manual and previously quoted by Jayanna:

In which the lesson manual then states:

It states plainly that we are in the dimension of time. God is not.

It is not that time does not exist, it is that all time, past, present, and future are at once before him.

That is really cool!!!

I don't remember feeling like I was moving very fast, but then I was there in spirit, I think. I also remember no sound at all, none. When he spoke it was like when the Holy Spirit speaks, not hearing it with my ears, only a bit deeper voice, not the same voice, very short not usuing extra words, mostly like, "look" and I couldn't help but look. the seeing was more than just watching. When you saw someone it was as if I SAW them, like their very nature of their heart/intent was there. I think that is why Nephi could look at Mary and know that she was a virgin just by the sight of her. I also don't remember feeling anything like hot or cold or wind or even gravity. I keep thinking surely I'm not the only one, come on there are 14 million of us now, somebody tell me I'm not crazy

[Colirio]

Jayanna, that is such a neat experience you have shared! I do not believe it to be a typical experience. While our Father in Heaven does indeed bless many in what we would consider to be "extreme" ways, the experiences are often so different from one person to the next.

As for being quickened, there are certainly different levels of glory to be quickened to:

D&C 88: 28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

Concerning the resurrection, we will apparently be quickened to a state of glory in which we will reside.

The scriptures also state that in order to see God we must be quickened. (D&C 67:11) Did you experience a particular quickening? I don't know. Apparently, it has been a mystery even to some prophets:

3 Nephi 28:13 And behold, the heavens were opened, and they were caught up into heaven, and saw and heard unspeakable things.

14 And it was forbidden them that they should utter; neither was it given unto them power that they could utter the things which they saw and heard;

15 And whether they were in the body or out of the body, they could not tell; for it did seem unto them like a transfiguration of them, that they were changed from this body of flesh into an immortal state, that they could behold the things of God.

16 But it came to pass that they did again minister upon the face of the earth; nevertheless they did not minister of the things which they had heard and seen, because of the commandment which was given them in heaven.

17 And now, whether they were mortal or immortal, from the day of their transfiguration, I know not;

Regardless, what a great experience you have had! I appreciate that you have shared it, knowing it must be very sacred to you.

[Seminarysnoozer]

That is really cool!!!

I don't remember feeling like I was moving very fast, but then I was there in spirit, I think. I also remember no sound at all, none. When he spoke it was like when the Holy Spirit speaks, not hearing it with my ears, only a bit deeper voice, not the same voice, very short not usuing extra words, mostly like, "look" and I couldn't help but look. the seeing was more than just watching. When you saw someone it was as if I SAW them, like their very nature of their heart/intent was there. I think that is why Nephi could look at Mary and know that she was a virgin just by the sight of her. I also don't remember feeling anything like hot or cold or wind or even gravity. I keep thinking surely I'm not the only one, come on there are 14 million of us now, somebody tell me I'm not crazy

I appreciate you sharing your experience, that is brave of you.

If this is the description of what you said earlier, "I was there" then I would point out that you describe events that require the passage of time. "When he spoke" and "I couldn't help but look" suggests there were events that occurred one before the other. Even though the experience, I'm sure, would be hard to describe as it is different from what we experience here, it still seems to me that there was a passage of time, albeit immediate reactions, there was something that happened then something else.

[jayanna]

Thanks, seminary, but it really isn't brave at all when it's anonymous :\ I wish I didn't feel so alone about it. I wish I could share it...

Oh, listen, I don't know how to explain it, you, mister, you are draggin me down

You could ask, "How did you look if you didn't have eyes?" You could ask, "ooo ooo what did you get to see?" You could ask, "Do men wear dresses in Heaven?" But noooo, you gotta say, he told you and then you did it.....Listen to me when I say He speaks and it exists, he speaks and it happens, no wait that's it.....sigh....you're just gonna hafta wait see...I give up...you got me you win

Are you happy now?

[jayanna]

Jayanna, that is such a neat experience you have shared! I do not believe it to be a typical experience. While our Father in Heaven does indeed bless many in what we would consider to be "extreme" ways, the experiences are often so different from one person to the next.

As for being quickened, there are certainly different levels of glory to be quickened to:

Concerning the resurrection, we will apparently be quickened to a state of glory in which we will reside.

The scriptures also state that in order to see God we must be quickened. (D&C 67:11) Did you experience a particular quickening? I don't know. Apparently, it has been a mystery even to some prophets:

Regardless, what a great experience you have had! I appreciate that you have shared it, knowing it must be very sacred to you.

I don't mind talking about what it was like there, but I don't really talk about what I learned, because it was just for me, and if He wanted everyone to know, He would tell them or tell the prophet to tell them. So I won't talk about those things, because it might hurt someone who is not ready for it, but I can share about what it is like there, or at least the bit I got to see...

I don't know exactly where I was. It was another place, there was a book I did get to look at though. I didn't read much, but I learned a whole lot. There was a very very studious missionary here who supposed something about the scriptures, about how things worked a very very long time ago. He was actually being somewhat uncharitable. I told him he was wrong, because I read it, and he was wrong. He didn't really believe me, so he asked his MP, and the MP asked a GA, and the GA said I got it exactly right. (so maybe the GA read it too :) ) For a long time I thought I would be able to find what I had read in the scriptures, but it isn't there. I was kinda sad I couldn't show it to anyone, but someday everyone can read it, so I'm just being impatient, it is not time for it yet.

I can tell you I was so shy, I couldn't look Him in the face, I just couldn't I just looked down at His feet, I just couldn't bear anything more bold. There is a picture of Christ teaching and just to His side and a little behind Him there is a young man who is listening, but not looking at Him, just listening intently...that was me. http://www.jesuswalk.com/manifesto/images/bloch-sermon-on-the-mount815x912.jpg

It was so funny when I went to the temple to get my endowments and I saw something so familiar!!!...I couldn't wait to show my hubby waiting for him to be endowed so I could finally show him....That's the color of the floor!!!! IT really is!!! I couldn't get enough of the silly floor, of all things, the floor You know how babies put things in their mouths to learn about the object, I just wanted to touch that floor, knock on it, rub it, scrape it, lick it even just to find out what it was made of!! Snicker I'm such a goof ball, I wish I could have licked the floor of heaven? what? I know I'm silly, but what IS that stuff? I don't know, but somebody else has seen it 'cause let me tell ya the bro's and sis's working on the temple info, they nailed it. I can't say any more about it, if you've been to the temple you will understand what I'm talking about I hope

I'm still looking for a temple dress made out of material like what He was wearing. I haven't found anything as close as I would like it to be though.

Time is a burden, it drags at me, it weighs on me, and there in order to really focus and learn and understand, time is not a factor. The stillness is a lot like the celestial room, but not quite. There is a feeling of complete rest. It's great, really, and it will be wonderful when we all get there and I can run around and share!

Edited January 7, 2012 by jayanna

[Seminarysnoozer]

Thanks, seminary, but it really isn't brave at all when it's anonymous :\ I wish I didn't feel so alone about it. I wish I could share it...

Oh, listen, I don't know how to explain it, you, mister, you are draggin me down

You could ask, "How did you look if you didn't have eyes?" You could ask, "ooo ooo what did you get to see?" You could ask, "Do men wear dresses in Heaven?" But noooo, you gotta say, he told you and then you did it.....Listen to me when I say He speaks and it exists, he speaks and it happens, no wait that's it.....sigh....you're just gonna hafta wait see...I give up...you got me you win

Are you happy now?

I am sorry that you are seeing this as some kind of battle that could be won or lost. That was never the intent. It is only, like yourself, the thirst for knowledge. And I am glad you are willing to go the rounds as far as you have to ponder these things.

All of our testimonies are based in different things and experiences. We all have been given various gifts to build upon. And I think they were meant to be shared for the most part. Of course there are some things that are just for the individual but that is rare. For some it is given to just believe without understanding. Others it is given to believe in the witness of someone else. But not all have that gift in this life to all things.

A big part of my testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel lies in the idea that there is eternal progression and increase. To me it gives purpose to this life, it drives me forward. It relates to the importance of families and the eternal family. I hold onto that fairly strongly because I think it is different than most religions.

Of the little bit that we have been given in the description of the eternal celestial realms there is nothing that we are told in general (which may be different than you have been given I suppose) that suggests that the passage of time does not exist in some manner. The very description of light requires time. The idea of eternal increase and progression which is the very reward for making it into the celestial kingdom requires the passage of time by definition. Whether it passes slowly or at a different perceived rate or some new type of perception that we don't have here is fine, that still doesn't go against the idea of having one moment which passes then another moment, one round then another round, one work then another work.

A timeless being could never present himself to one that is in the dimension of time (as in Joseph Smith's vision) even if the person is transfigured as how would the timeless being say something to the effect of "Okay, now is the moment in which I need to bring this person into my presence and now is the moment I need to go back to timelessness"? That could never be with one who is timeless as there is no moment. The timeless being would have to visit with the transfigured being endlessly as there is no end to that moment in which the visit took place. A timeless being could not interact with beings that experience the passage of time, that is simply impossible. To me that is as bizarre as saying that God is so powerful he could destroy himself completely to be non-existent and then bring himself back. Of that God is so powerful that he could make something out of nothing. Man made concepts are like that though, they just end up creating a bunch of confusion and frustration.

Maybe someday we will find out that it is possible to be timeless but I suppose at that moment we learn about timelessness we would tell ourselves that there was never a time that we ever thought about there being no timelessness as that would be giving into the idea that there was a time different than the moment that we are in.

[Gargantuan]

I have copied the link and shared it with a few more of my friends. Thank you very much for sharing this.

[onefour1]

The fact that all things are present with God is not only an idea, it's doctrine.

Whether or not it affects free will is mention in the Pearl of Great Price lesson manual linked in the first post.

It says

God’s foreknowledge of all things does not hinder or limit our freedom to choose good or evil. Elder James E. Talmage, who was a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, wrote: “Many people have been led to regard this foreknowledge of God as a predestination whereby souls are designated for glory or condemnation even before their birth in the flesh, and irrespective of individual merit or demerit. This heretical doctrine seeks to rob Deity of mercy, justice, and love; it would make God appear capricious and selfish, directing and creating all things solely for His own glory, caring not for the suffering of His victims. How dreadful, how inconsistent is such an idea of God! It leads to the absurd conclusion that the mere knowledge of coming events must act as a determining influence in bringing about those occurrences. God’s knowledge of spiritual and of human nature enables Him to conclude with certainty as to the actions of any of His children under given conditions; yet that knowledge is not of compelling force upon the creature” (The Articles of Faith, 12th ed., [1924], 191).

I have been without internet and in the hospital for some time and haven't been able to reply to this thread. I want to reply to this post in particular because I think I have been misunderstood or haven't explained myself well enough. I believe that God can see and know the future. This to me is indisputable in scripture. My arguments are not geared toward whether God can or cannot see or know the future by in how this is accomplished. I do not believe that the future exists in reality. It may be seen and known by God but I do not believe that God knows it because it has already occurred before him. I don't believe that God has already seen our lives played out in reality. If this were the case, then the existence that we are playing out now has already occurred and we would be doing nothing more that following a prewritten script for our lives. I do not believe in such a dual existence. I believe that if our lives have in reality been played out prior to our current existence, then we do not have the free will to do otherwise than that which was played out already in a previous existence. I am not arguing that God does not know and see the future but only that he is not knowing and seeing it from an already played out existence.

I don't know how God sees and knows the future, but I dont' believe that it is from an existence that we already existed in.

Edited January 17, 2012 by onefour1

[Seminarysnoozer]

I have been without internet and in the hospital for some time and haven't been able to reply to this thread. I want to reply to this post in particular because I think I have been misunderstood or haven't explained myself well enough. I believe that God can see and know the future. This to me is indisputable in scripture. My arguments are not geared toward whether God can or cannot see or know the future by in how this is accomplished. I do not believe that the future exists in reality. It may be seen and known by God but I do not believe that God knows it because it has already occurred before him. I don't believe that God has already seen our lives played out in reality. If this were the case, then the existence that we are playing out now has already occurred and we would be doing nothing more that following a prewritten script for our lives. I do not believe in such a dual existence. I believe that if our lives have in reality been played out prior to our current existence, then we do not have the free will to do otherwise than that which was played out already in a previous existence. I am not arguing that God does not know and see the future but only that he is not knowing and seeing it from an already played out existence.

I don't know how God sees and knows the future, but I dont' believe that it is from an existence that we already existed in.

I agree with you and I believe that most LDS see it that way too (but that could be my biased view). I would add to your reasons the fact that there is value in accomplishing tasks, in other words, "bringing to pass" things which is supported by scripture. If things are already brought to pass by some future being played out already then there is no value in bringing anything to pass. To maintain some significance to the idea that something is done or brought to pass is to say that there is a past. If there is a past then there is a future not just a now.

I think the typical argument is that we can't understand it because we exist in this realm with time. Well, I think we can't understand it because it is a man-made concept that there is a possibility for the non-passage of time existence. There is nothing in the scriptures that supports the lack of passage of time. The only reference to time may suggest that for God there is no beginning and end, which is one definition for "time". And that is true but does not refute the idea of the passage of time or having a past and a future. That is simply what we call "eternal". "Eternal" being the opposite of "time". But both maintaining the passage of time or in other words the maintaining of a past present and future. Everything is only "as if" it is present. Like watching an old world war 2 movie, it is "as if" it is present ... I believe it is in that sense even though we don't understand how.

[HiJolly]

That is really cool!!!

I don't remember feeling like I was moving very fast, but then I was there in spirit, I think. I also remember no sound at all, none. When he spoke it was like when the Holy Spirit speaks, not hearing it with my ears, only a bit deeper voice, not the same voice, very short not usuing extra words, mostly like, "look" and I couldn't help but look. the seeing was more than just watching. When you saw someone it was as if I SAW them, like their very nature of their heart/intent was there. I think that is why Nephi could look at Mary and know that she was a virgin just by the sight of her. I also don't remember feeling anything like hot or cold or wind or even gravity. I keep thinking surely I'm not the only one, come on there are 14 million of us now, somebody tell me I'm not crazy

FWIW, you are *not* crazy. :) All who have experienced these things know what you mean.

In the Catholic church, there is a community of mystics that share these experiences and thus have good reason to see they are not crazy.

In the Islamic world, these are called Sufis and they know through the process of community that they are not crazy.

Same for Hindus, Buddhists, Magicians and Occultists.

Mormonism is a young religion and therefore this inner group has not yet formed, though there is a connection to a portion of the Western Mystery Tradition that may help accelerate the process. Maybe.

HiJolly

[onefour1]

I agree with you and I believe that most LDS see it that way too (but that could be my biased view). I would add to your reasons the fact that there is value in accomplishing tasks, in other words, "bringing to pass" things which is supported by scripture. If things are already brought to pass by some future being played out already then there is no value in bringing anything to pass. To maintain some significance to the idea that something is done or brought to pass is to say that there is a past. If there is a past then there is a future not just a now.

I think the typical argument is that we can't understand it because we exist in this realm with time. Well, I think we can't understand it because it is a man-made concept that there is a possibility for the non-passage of time existence. There is nothing in the scriptures that supports the lack of passage of time. The only reference to time may suggest that for God there is no beginning and end, which is one definition for "time". And that is true but does not refute the idea of the passage of time or having a past and a future. That is simply what we call "eternal". "Eternal" being the opposite of "time". But both maintaining the passage of time or in other words the maintaining of a past present and future. Everything is only "as if" it is present. Like watching an old world war 2 movie, it is "as if" it is present ... I believe it is in that sense even though we don't understand how.

Yes I believe that understanding concepts such as time and eternity is critical to understanding scripture. My concept of time and eternity are as follows:

1. The passage of events - If an event has not happened, and then happens, and finally stops happening, then we understand that the event was forthcoming and thus a future event, then a current or present event, and finally a past event. Because we as humans have the capacity to plan to do things at a future time, and have cognizance of what is currently happening, and have a memory of past events, we have an inner sense of time passage. I believe that this sense of time is an eternal reality. With God, do events not happen, then happen, and finally stop happening? I would answer yes. God created the world, Jesus has finished his atonement, and as you have stated so clearly, God has brought to pass the immortality and eternal life of some of us. God remembers all that he has done. He is not perpetually creating the earth, Jesus is not perpetually suffering in the garden, God has already spiritually begotten our spirits before coming to this earth, etc, etc. Because God experiences the passage of events in eternity as well as in time, can we not conclude that he experiences the passage of time in this manner? I find it to be very odd that God would never experience a beginning and end to events. I cannot fathom that no event ever has a beginning or end in eternity.

2. A measure of eternity - I believe we all exist in eternity and that time is only a measure of a part of eternity. I believe that God has set us upon this earth and given us a beginning and end for our mortal existence. I don't believe that the reckoning of time in this fashion is an eternal constant. In other words, God creates these reckonings. According to the Book of Abraham, God created the sun and set this earth in motion around the sun and also created the rotation of the earth on its axis. We on earth have reckoned our time according to the revolutions and rotations of our planet and thus have years, months, and days. We have divided the day further into hours, minutes, and seconds. But all these are a creation. We compare events in our lives with the motions of our stars and planets as well as the hands on our clocks. By synchronizing our clocks we are able to keep better order in our lives. I think God knew how important it would be for us to have a reckoning of time. But here on this earth, we base all our science and daily activities on our reckoning. If we were to hie to Kolob, we would have a totally different reckoning of time. I believe it says that Kolob is one of the first of God's creations. Around the time he created Kolob, God gave it its reckoning. Thus time as a measure is arbitrarily set by God in different parts of eternity. Perhaps our reckoning after this mortal existence will change and thus time, in this fashion, will exist no longer.

3. My concept of eternity is that it is the ever present NOW. Or in other words, it is what exists. I believe that change occurs within eternity and gives us a sense of a past and future. But I don't believe that the future or past have a real existence. They are what the NOW will be or what the NOW once was. What exists is what is. Change may occur in eternity, but eternity is an eternal constant. I don't believe that eternity flows through time. I believe that time is merely a perception or measure of change that occurs within eternity. Unless we compare our events to a mesure of time, we perceive the passage of events but we don't really know how long it took to occur. The upper limit on our measure of time would be eternity at which point no mesure really exists. Everything within eternity moves or changes at differing rates. Only if we take on one of those motions to be a meature can we say how much time has past. Take away the measure and we don't really know how much time has past. If all change were to cease within eternity, we would neither have a measure or perception of time.

So, in my mind, because change exists within eternity and we are cognizant of it and have memory we thus have a concept of time.

Edited January 18, 2012 by onefour1