Gospel Principles or the 2nd Coming

[Snow]

In Priesthood this Sunday we had a lesson on the 2nd coming from Chapter 43 of Gospel Principles.

In response to the question: How will we know when Jesus' coming is near, the text quoted Mark 13:28-29.

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

"So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors" .

... as if that was something that was going to occur in the future prior to the 2nd coming.

The text (and the lesson) completely ignored verse 30: "Verily I say unto you, that this ageneration shall not pass, till all these things be done.'[/]

Obviously the text was referring to something that happened or was to have happened 1900 years ago, not something that is yet to occur in the future?

Edited December 7, 2011 by Snow
sorry for the spelling error in the title

[jayanna]

You can read some in D & C 45 about this. Also there is a JST of this chapter of Mark which makes more sense. It reads to me that the generation that is on the earth at the time these signs begin will not pass away before all of the signs have been given, that it will all happen within 1 generation. But read the JST for yourself and maybe it will make more sense.

Joseph Smith?Matthew 1:34 

[Snow]

You can read some in D & C 45 about this. Also there is a JST of this chapter of Mark which makes more sense. It reads to me that the generation that is on the earth at the time these signs begin will not pass away before all of the signs have been given, that it will all happen within 1 generation. But read the JST for yourself and maybe it will make more sense.

Joseph Smith?Matthew 1:34*

I don't think this is an issue of what Joseph said or revealed on the subject. Rather this was about what the author of Mark said about the subject.

[Guest]

You're a boy?!

[Just_A_Guy]

(Of course, the standard answer is that John the Beloved was there, and he never died. But I suspect some may view that as sort of a cop-out. )

I don't know whether the earliest Greek (Aramaic?) manuscripts support this, but it strikes me that verses 5-23 are a direct answer to the disciples' question, which was about the destruction of the Temple of Herod and not about Jesus' second coming. Verses 24-27 then refer to additional events that take place just prior to the second coming.

Could verses 28-31 then be seen as Jesus coming back to the original question (i.e. "when will the temple be destroyed?"), and the "these things" alluded to in verse 30 be interpreted to exclude the actual Second Coming and the events immediately preceding it?

I suppose that one might make a text-based argument that even verses 32-37 refer to the impending destruction of the temple and not the Second Coming. The first five words of verse 34 are italicized, meaning that they were added for clarification by the translators and not present in the actual manuscripts. Not sure what the Church leadership (let alone the curriculum department!) would think of that one, though.

But I guess the principle of verses 28-29 is still sound: God has given us the signs preceding the event, and when we see those particular signs we can know that the event is imminent.

[i suppose the major problem with my bolovating here, is that Matthew 24 doesn't seem to allow for the same kind of neat separation that my proposed reading of Mark allows.]

Edited December 7, 2011 by Just_A_Guy

[jayanna]

YEs, but if the translation you are reading is incorrect, then you don't know what Mark said about it. IF you have the correct translation I think it would help quite a bit. the JST was not Joseph Smith's opinion, but a correct translation of what he was reading. If you would look at it you would know that. Mark didn't write it in English.

You know, have you asked this question in prayer and sought personal revelation about it? I think that would be much more important than conjecture.

Edited December 7, 2011 by jayanna

[Snow]

YEs, but if the translation you are reading is incorrect, then you don't know what Mark said about it. IF you have the correct translation I think it would help quite a bit. the JST was not Joseph Smith's opinion, but a correct translation of what he was reading. If you would look at it you would know that. Mark didn't write it in English.

So, what, exactly (which words), are you suggesting is mistranslated and what is the correct translation of those words.

You know, have you asked this question in prayer and sought personal revelation about it? I think that would be much more important than conjecture.

By the way - I am not conjecturing. I quoted the passages verbatim... but anyway, if I prayed about it and got an answer, would you accept that answer as correct and factual?

[Snow]

You're a boy?!

You mean gender-wise?

[rameumptom]

I think that if Christ was quoted correctly by Mark, it may be he was just wrong in his assumption of how soon it would occur. After all, even the Son of Man would not know when it would happen. Many early members believed the Second Coming would shortly come.

That said, there is the ancient concept of cycles. It may be that Christ saw that a cycle for the Jews was nearing completion, which would mean the end of the nation of Israel. With the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70AD, and then the destruction during the Bar Kokhba Revolt, we can ostensibly see this as a partial fulfillment of the prophecy.

This fits in with Peter stating that Joel's prophecy was fulfilled in their day, even though the sun did not turn black, or the moon to blood. Partial fulfillment meant people could (as Nephi taught) apply the word to their own day. This is also attested to in some of the Dead Sea Scrolls, such as the Habakkuk Commentary/Midrash, where the "Kittim" are taught to be the enemy of the day (Romans most likely), even though Habakkuk himself probably did not have Romans in mind when he wrote it.

[Traveler]

In Priesthood this Sunday we had a lesson on the 2nd coming from Chapter 43 of Gospel Principles.

In response to the question: How will we know when Jesus' coming is near, the text quoted Mark 13:28-29.

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

"So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors" .

... as if that was something that was going to occur in the future prior to the 2nd coming.

The text (and the lesson) completely ignored verse 30: "Verily I say unto you, that this ageneration shall not pass, till all these things be done.'[/]

Obviously the text was referring to something that happened or was to have happened 1900 years ago, not something that is yet to occur in the future?

Anciently the word we translate as generation can be interpreted in other ways - this is called variant readings. In essence a variant reading is foretelling the restoration. - Thus in stead of passing away it is made anew - completely.

The Traveler

[Martain]

You mean gender-wise?

Yes, you indicate what you learned in priesthood last week. Usually only priesthood holders attend priesthood. Within the LDS community at least.

Then I noticed that you don't indicate that you're of an LDS denomination?

Since everyone here has assumed you're a woman based on your picture... such a comment caused a double take.

[Justice]

I go with the JST.

[lds2]

Here are some Latter-Day quotes from my studies, hope they help with yours...

"The fulness of the Master’s ministry lies in the future. The prophecies of His Second Coming have yet to be fulfilled."

Elder Russell M. Nelson, The Peace and Joy of Knowing the Savior Lives

December 2011 Ensign

"...but I wish to remind you of the warnings of scripture and the teachings of the prophets which we have had constantly before us. I cannot forget the great lesson of Pharaoh’s dream of the fat and lean kine and of the full and withered stalks of corn. I cannot dismiss from my mind the grim warnings of the Lord as set forth in the 24th chapter of Matthew."

The Times in Which We Live (2001)

President Gordon B. Hinckley

"Those of us who read and believe the scriptures are aware of the warnings of prophets concerning catastrophes that...are yet to come to pass. There was the great Flood, when waters covered the earth and when, as Peter says, only “eight souls were saved” (1 Pet. 3:20). "If anyone has any doubt concerning the terrible things that can and will afflict mankind, let him read the 24th chapter of Matthew." …

If Ye Are Prepared Ye Shall Not Fear (2005)

President Gordon B. Hinckley

“When shall these things be . . . and what is the sign of thy coming?” ( JS—M 1:4 ). His lengthy answer provides one of the most detailed revelations on the signs of the times and of the Second Coming. Known as the Olivet Discourse because it was given on the Mount of Olives, the full sermon is given in Matthew 24–25 . Joseph Smith’s inspired corrections of the Olivet Discourse are so significant that they have been included in the Pearl of Great Price (see Joseph Smith—Matthew ). Mark and Luke also recorded portions of the discourse, though not as fully as did Matthew (see Mark 13:1–37 ; Luke 21:5–36 ).

The Lord’s citation of the same discourse in Doctrine and Covenants 45 begins in verse 16 with the words “As ye have asked of me.” The Savior interrupts the quotation after verse 33 to make an explanatory comment but continues it in verse 35 with “Be not troubled.” He seems to end the account at the end of verse 59 and begins speaking directly to Joseph Smith in verse 60 .

Doctrine and Covenants Institute Student Manual - Section 45 - "Looking Forth for the Great Day of the Lord

Edited December 8, 2011 by lds2