Becoming more submissive, obedient.

[Hala401]

From my own point of view, the years have made me want to be really submissive and obedient to God, and those he places in authority around me. In a mostly upbeat meeting with my Bishop, he did mention that I need to work on being more submissive. It seemed to be a passing comment and not the focus of our meeting.

Wow, now, the next day, I am thinking about it. Do I understand submissiveness? I did tell a certain person who was being really forceful with me about tithing that he was a bully. I mean do I really have to take it when a male gets loud and finger pointy with me? I mean I was already intending to do as the scripture says. He was just so busy being authoritative that he ran me over, or I felt like it.

That's the only incident I can think of where I got willful. Oh, did tell a couple women that were gossiping with me to stop it. I don't know, maybe I lack something in my own delivery?

Much peace

Hala

[sister_in_faith]

Being submissive does not mean allowing yourself to be run over, disrespected, or abused. Remember that!

[LittleWyvern]

I think what your Bishop meant here was submissiveness to God, not to mean people.

EDIT: Finally found the quote I was looking for. This is Brigham Young, wish an excellent definition of submission and how it relates to God.

If you have gold and silver, let it not come between you and your duty. I will tell you what to do in order to gain your exaltation, the which you cannot obtain except you take this course. If your affections are placed upon anything so as to hinder you in the least from dedicating them to the Lord, make a dedication of that thing in the first place, that the dedication of the whole may be complete. … If my heart is not fully given up to this work, I will give my time, my talents, my hands, and my possessions to it, until my heart consents to be subject. I will make my hands labour in the cause of God, until my heart bows in submission to it. … I have now told you what course to pursue to obtain an exaltation. The Lord must be first and foremost in our affections; the building up of his cause and kingdom demands our first consideration (DNW, 5 Jan. 1854, 2).

Edited December 8, 2011 by LittleWyvern

[Hala401]

I think what your Bishop meant here was submissiveness to God, not to mean people.

EDIT: Finally found the quote I was looking for. This is Brigham Young, wish an excellent definition of submission and how it relates to God.

Thank you. To be certain, after what I have experienced in the last few years, both consequences and mercy, submissiveness and obedience to God is like a veil before my eyes. I think that wearing the Niqab when I was Muslim, now helps me to put some physical substance into the idea.

So, far being with LDS, goodness, love and mercy have taken on new meaning for me. I have no one, and very little material goods, though my retirement income takes care of me. So, now seems like a God created opportunity to reach out to others, helping in any way that the Holy Spirit guides me.

The Bishop also asked me if I would accept a husband? I had not been prepared for that one! Wow! I never thought that would be posible.

Hala

[Guest gopecon]

Submissiveness is good when we submit ourselves to God. This can include submitting ourselves to the advice of leaders that He has called to help us, even when we disagree. With regard to tithing, your payments are between you and the bishop. You don't need to share how much you pay with anyone else. Now if you share your opinion in class and someone disagrees, it is probably best to let it go and not get into something ugly right there.

I'd agree with sister_in_faith that being run over and abused does not have to be a part of being a disciple of Jesus.

[Guest mirancs8]

Being submissive and obedient are both good things, but it doesn't give others the right to treat you with disrespect. You should always be respected.

Though this book Surrendered Wife is about married relationships I go back to this one part in the book often. Note I replaced "she" with "I".

Vulnerable where I use to be a nag

Trusting where I use to be controlling

Respectful where I use to be demeaning

Grateful where I use to be dissatisfied

Has faith where I once had doubt

When I think about the word submissive it brings to my mind the word criticism. Both these words make many feel uncomfortable as well as vulnerable. Both these words effectively take you out of your comfort zone. What I personally find interesting is when we put the word "constructive" before criticism the idea now of being critized doesn't seem as bad.

Being submissive is like releasing control and opening the mind to different ideas and the way of seeing things around us. Being submissive from a spiritual perspective (which I assume would be the direction your Bishop is coming from) might be to open your mind to the scriptures and the lessons.

Sorry I haven't read through all your post so not sure what culture you are from. Myself being from a middle eastern culture I can see where you are coming from when you hear these words. In many cultures the words submissive and obedient means something entirely different to those of other cultures. When a spiritual leader tells you to be more submissive and obedient in a culture/religion that by others may be viewed as oppressive well it doesn't translate the same to others.

I'm sure everything he is talking about has to do with the spiritual and not that you are to bow down and take crap from people.

BTW, get use to being asked about marriage. You're going to hear that a lot. Family and eternal marriage is very important to the LDS so your Bishop is going to bring it up.

As Salamu Alaykum

[Hala401]

Being submissive and obedient are both good things, but it doesn't give others the right to treat you with disrespect. You should always be respected.

Though this book Surrendered Wife is about married relationships I go back to this one part in the book often. Note I replaced "she" with "I".

Vulnerable where I use to be a nag

Trusting where I use to be controlling

Respectful where I use to be demeaning

Grateful where I use to be dissatisfied

Has faith where I once had doubt

When I think about the word submissive it brings to my mind the word criticism. Both these words make many feel uncomfortable as well as vulnerable. Both these words effectively take you out of your comfort zone. What I personally find interesting is when we put the word "constructive" before criticism the idea now of being critized doesn't seem as bad.

Being submissive is like releasing control and opening the mind to different ideas and the way of seeing things around us. Being submissive from a spiritual perspective (which I assume would be the direction your Bishop is coming from) might be to open your mind to the scriptures and the lessons.

Sorry I haven't read through all your post so not sure what culture you are from. Myself being from a middle eastern culture I can see where you are coming from when you hear these words. In many cultures the words submissive and obedient means something entirely different to those of other cultures. When a spiritual leader tells you to be more submissive and obedient in a culture/religion that by others may be viewed as oppressive well it doesn't translate the same to others.

I'm sure everything he is talking about has to do with the spiritual and not that you are to bow down and take crap from people.

BTW, get use to being asked about marriage. You're going to hear that a lot. Family and eternal marriage is very important to the LDS so your Bishop is going to bring it up.

As Salamu Alaykum

Wa Alaykom Salaam Sister: ! Wow, never did I expect this on LDS site! Wallah !

So, maybe you will understand the feeling that inspite of my becoming LDS, Islam and the culture will always be a part of me. I still feel the same about God (Allah SWT), and eat the same, and dress the same, minus Hijab. Though I still long for it at times, for the security and respect of it. The difference is that Jesus Christ died on the cross, and of course the atonement. The rest is much the same.

It is astonishing to me how loving the LDS are. I hope that will feel true in a few years.

Salaam

Hala

PS: You are of Middle Eastern descent? Would you share more? It is not my intention to make you uncomfortble.

[Guest mormonmusic]

One thing, though, don't let Brigham Young's statement titter you over into extremism which, in bringing your heart up to extreme levels, causes you to neglect other important things in your life. Church is only one such thing, there is so much more, and things tend to jockey for positions of importance over time.

[JudoMinja]

Asking someone to be more submissive can often be a trigger word that brings up rebellion because it has such mixed connotations. I know if someone ever told me I needed to be more submissive, I would have an adverse reaction, because I would be internally translating it to "you just need to shut up and do what you're told". Well, that just isn't something I'm going to do- especially if I feel like I'm getting walked over or if I don't think what I'm being told to do is correct. It is also, often used as a tool to "put someone in place", for the one asking you to be submissive to exert power and control. Basically, you need to submit to me because I'm better/stronger/bigger etc and I'm in charge. It's a bully tool, and nobody likes bullies...

We need to remove ourselves from this "bully" connotation though that is so wrapped up in the word "submissive", because we are all told in the scriptures to be more submissive and less confrontational. In particular, I think of this scripture:

Mosiah 3:19 "For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father." (emphasis added)

When I think of being submissive in the way this scripture implies, I think of being calm, centered, and "slow to anger". I picture someone who is not easily riled, is stalwart and steady in their beliefs, and who is willing to "go and do" when given a task without complaint or murmur. I think of someone who, when confronted by someone trying to exert that "bully" control, lets the disrespect roll over their shoulder and moves on. Someone who shows respect even to those who are disrespectful. Who is kind even to those who are cruel. Calm when others are angry. And someone who acts on their personal beliefs and will do what is "right" without stopping to think about how hard it will be or if it is even possible.

This scripture also brings to mind a sense of "trust". A child who is submissive to his father is usually so because he trusts that his father knows more than he does, can see the whole picture while the child can't, knows what is best for the child, and will not lead the child astray. This trust is typically naturally present in a child and does not disappear until the father gives the child reason to doubt or mistrust. To be truly submissive, we need to have that trust in our Father in Heaven. We need to recognize that he does indeed know and understand far more than we do, that he wants what is best for us, and that he will not lead us astray.

We could all work on being more submissive.

[Hala401]

One thing, though, don't let Brigham Young's statement titter you over into extremism which, in bringing your heart up to extreme levels, causes you to neglect other important things in your life. Church is only one such thing, there is so much more, and things tend to jockey for positions of importance over time.

LOL, I was Muslim when I started this journey with the LDS Sisters, so things like polygamy did not concern me. It was easy to take the step from Muhammad PBUH to Joseph Smith and all that comes with it. At the time, as things developed, I wondered if I would wind up a sister wife, on some farm out in Idaho or something? Muslims practice polygamy, even in the USA, so it was not an issue for me.

It is later that I read the book of Jacob and it set me back for a time. Perhaps there are also similar admonishments in the Qur'an. But to be clear, I know that the Salt Lake LDS do not participate in polygamy. Those who do it number only about 3000 people who have been disfellowshipped.

Yes, I did live extremisim for a time in Islam, and now know better.

[Hala401]

JudoMinja: Thank you. It is relatively hard for a forceful person to arouse me to ire, but when it happens, I feel sad. Taking my Bishop's words to heart, I will ask God to search me. (PS 139:23). I still have much to learn.

[Guest mirancs8]

Wa Alaykom Salaam Sister: ! Wow, never did I expect this on LDS site! Wallah !

So, maybe you will understand the feeling that inspite of my becoming LDS, Islam and the culture will always be a part of me. I still feel the same about God (Allah SWT), and eat the same, and dress the same, minus Hijab. Though I still long for it at times, for the security and respect of it. The difference is that Jesus Christ died on the cross, and of course the atonement. The rest is much the same.

It is astonishing to me how loving the LDS are. I hope that will feel true in a few years.

Salaam

Hala

PS: You are of Middle Eastern descent? Would you share more? It is not my intention to make you uncomfortble.

masā' al-khayr Hala!

No discomfort here. My family is from Lebanon. My Arabic is just enough to have basic conversation but mashallah I can do at least that much lol!

I do very much so understand. And though we live here in America those behaviors/cultural differences carry on with us throughout our lives no matter where we are living. You know as well as I do what being submissive and obedient really means whether in your marriage or with spiritual leaders in our culture. Like you said the wearing of the Hijab is a sign that you are submissive to Allah and all it encompasses. It gives you a sense of comfort and in some ways makes it easier to be submissive. It's a constant reminder of what this person believes and their committment.

Well that's how I feel about my garments. Though if you passed me on the street from the outside you would never know that I am wearing it, but it's a constant reminder for me of the covenants I've made and the commandments I am to follow.

Humdulillāh that the Gospel has touched your life and that you are taking the steps. It will be a hard journey let me warn you. I can assure you your family... well I won't bring that part up but it will be hard. I'm not going to sugar coat it for you.

BTW, I never gave up my culture when I joined the church. NEVER will I give up the food!! So much of our faith is ingrained in our culture it's almost like the both are one. What you need to do is seperate them.

Your heritage is who you are and where you come from... your faith is where your heading and beyond.

[Hala401]

masā' al-khayr Hala!

No discomfort here. My family is from Lebanon. My Arabic is just enough to have basic conversation but mashallah I can do at least that much lol!

I do very much so understand. And though we live here in America those behaviors/cultural differences carry on with us throughout our lives no matter where we are living. You know as well as I do what being submissive and obedient really means whether in your marriage or with spiritual leaders in our culture. Like you said the wearing of the Hijab is a sign that you are submissive to Allah and all it encompasses. It gives you a sense of comfort and in some ways makes it easier to be submissive. It's a constant reminder of what this person believes and their committment.

Well that's how I feel about my garments. Though if you passed me on the street from the outside you would never know that I am wearing it, but it's a constant reminder for me of the covenants I've made and the commandments I am to follow.

Humdulillāh that the Gospel has touched your life and that you are taking the steps. It will be a hard journey let me warn you. I can assure you your family... well I won't bring that part up but it will be hard. I'm not going to sugar coat it for you.

BTW, I never gave up my culture when I joined the church. NEVER will I give up the food!! So much of our faith is ingrained in our culture it's almost like the both are one. What you need to do is seperate them.

Your heritage is who you are and where you come from... your faith is where your heading and beyond.

Shukrah Jazillian. I am American; born and raised here. However my 6 years of being Muslim left a deep mark on me; a good one I think, and I would like to keep those things. I know that Muslims, Christians and Jews over there do not get along, but I think that is tribal feuding rather than pure Islam, I think. The trouble is shameful and makes Allah SWT sad, I think.

I still love Goat Shwarma, and Humus, Wallah! To not eat with the left hand and only with the right, even tearing the bread with one hand, for me was a constant reminder of who I was. I think the Halal/Haraam food rules got out of hand, because some of the Halal meat here in America is just awful. Still, the idea is there, and I respect that.

I respected and felt secure that my whole day was supposed to be ordered around Allah SWT. The Wudu (cleansing of the body), the morning prayer, and then the rest. The covering in public, the submission to God, and eventually to a husband, if it ever happened.

All this taught me and prepared me to be LDS. Many times in Islam, I thought about the significance of Isa PBUH (Jesus), and I never felt settled about it. Eventually, I knew that I could not solve the problem of the crucifixion on my own. I left it to God to lead me.

Here in Portland, they have been kind and gentle with me. They even let me continue to use my Arabi name. :) I had no idea what so ever that those first weeks in Kirtland would lead to this. Alhumduallah! (Thank God)

Ma Salaama

Hala

[Guest mirancs8]

I always find it interesting when someone converts to Islam. It must be a big change. Is your family Islamic or no? BTW, I was born here too.

Yes the Halal meat here in America it's not good most of the time (though I would imagine in highly populated areas like Deerborn it's much better). I'm not Arab and my family are all Christian so we never did the Halal, but we go to the Arabic store to buy other things. I follow more of the Kosher law though not consistent by any messure. Most my life I've had Orthodox Jewish friends so I guess it rubbed off on me For years I even dressed very much like the Orthodox Jewish women (long skirt, elbows covered, snood etc.). It would never fail when in the city the OJ men would mistaken me as one of their own.

It is interesting when you look at the laws when it comes to what we wear, eat, and drink. Or even how and when we we do these things whether its in Islam, the law of Kosher, or the WoW. When we have to think about each action it reminds us of why we are doing it. There is a level of committment we make to do obey these laws/commandments.

[Hala401]

I always find it interesting when someone converts to Islam. It must be a big change. Is your family Islamic or no? BTW, I was born here too.

It was such a confusing time. The church had thrown me out for some perceived sin, when I had actually not done a thing wrong. I knew I could not do anything else but that did not mean that I was going to do evil things.

I felt awful and lost. I had asked the jesus people for help and they hurt me instead. There is just a lot to the story that I no longer wish to talk about, but I was done with them and their "plastic Jesus", or thought so.

The first commandment was still stuck in my head. I could not escape it, no matter how I wanted to run. So, if you eliminate those who name the name of Jesus Christ, who is left? Why didn't I become a Jew? I have no idea. So, when I listened to a Muslim man say, "There is no God but Allah SWT", I knew that part was right.

In my mind I was screaming, "How can Jesus be real if his followers can treat me like they did?" It took me years for my hurt to dull enough to listen to reason. I became quite radical, and at one time if I had been treated well, could have done unspeakable things. The radical Muslims wanted 16 year old girls, they could control, not an old divorcee.

As time passed, I became much more moderate and devoted my time to volunteer work. So, in truth, it was the will of God that I spend the time as a Muslim, cooling off and learning to be devout, meek, obedient, compassionate and all those things that God wants from us.

At first, when I strayed into the Historical Center at Kirtland, I had no idea why I was there except I wanted to see the Temple across the street and up the hill. Weeks later, I took a tour of it, fearing that I might not ever get a chance to enter a temple again.

Those weeks starting in early March and ending around the first of June, were so uncertain, painful, wonderful, and healing. It was an emotional time for me and writing about it even now brings it back with great clarity.

Here I was a very observant Muslimah, entering into a place where there were those who believed in Jesus! What was I doing there? Even now, it does not always make sense to me. I was Muslim, what did I have in common with christians? The people of Jesus had hurt me, why would I let them do it again?

I have to think about what happened next, try to make sense of it.

Hala