What's The Point?

[Ray]

Why do we talk about the gospel with people? Is it because we are genuinely concerned about other people, with hopes that they will accept what we tell them, or do we simply like to talk about the gospel?

If it’s because we’re genuinely concerned about other people, with hopes that they will accept what we tell them, are we careful to explain things so that the other people will understand us? Do we avoid ridiculing other people when they don’t seem to get it?

What if other people do understand us and still do not accept what we tell them as truth?

Is there a limit to how much we should share with other people who don’t accept what we tell them? And if so, are there some things we should concentrate on talking about first?

It seems to me that we try awfully hard sometimes to convince other people that we are telling the truth, and that what we understand is what everyone else should understand.

Why do we do that? Is that our job? Even if we could tell the truth in such a way that everyone could understand what we’re saying, with no misunderstandings at all, is our testimony and reasoning going to convince anyone that we know and are telling the truth? Is that even possible?

I’ve given a lot of thought to this idea for quite a while now, and more and more I’m starting to see the wisdom in doing what we’ve been counseled to do when we talk about the gospel with others. When I only talk about the first principles of the gospel, taking care to testify and explain what Faith in Jesus Christ is all about, I’ve noticed that I can see pretty quickly whether talking about something else is worth my time.

If someone doesn’t understand how they can know the truth, which is by receiving a testimony from the Holy Ghost, they will be always be able to come up with their own reasoning to explain things without ever coming one step closer to knowing the truth.

They will always be able to come up with reasons why they shouldn’t change anything about themselves without ever knowing the true condition of their life.

They will always be able to come up with reasons for believing whatever they believe because they neither know God nor how they can come to know the truth about Him.

Can anyone tell me why we should talk to people like that or listen to anything they have to say?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Ray@Mar 8 2004, 05:45 PM

What's The Point?, of talking about anything with others?

I do it because I need the money. Daddy needs a new pair of shoes.

[sgallan]

**** Can anyone tell me why we should talk to people like that or listen to anything they have to say? ****

You shouldn't Ray. You really don't like us, because we don't see it your way, and most people are not stupid. We can tell.....

[porterrockwell]

Good insight Ray. I have a little story that put things into perspective. I am 20, however, have always stayed close to the youth of the Church. During a combined activity, my former bishop, who is now the presiding High Priest of our ward, had us play a game-if you will. Everyone sat in chairs in a HUGE circle. Then, a large, brown, paper bag with skittles was passed around. The objective was to take two skittles out. If they matched in color, you could start chewing. The minute someone ahead of you got doubles you had to stop. If you didn't get a pair, you had to keep them in your mouth. Well the process repeated itself for nearly 15 minutes, and I had developed a mouthful, likened unto that of a major leaguers chaw. It had gotten so big it was tucked tightly within my lower lip and cheek. Then, he told us to stop and to keep whatever we had left in our mouths. Then, his story and lesson related that which was in our mouths(for me the gigantic, sugary lump of what use to be skittles) to the word of God. The whole message was that if we possess truth and knowledge that is of good fruit and valued by those seeking the light of Christ and the true nature of the Lord(i.e. the Godhead, and not the trinity) why should it remain there. By now, the sugar was seeping into my roots and the three teeth that the skittles were now stuck to were starting to sting. So I gained a great deal of perspective that day. Allbeit from a somewhat sophmoric(for lack of a better phrase) exercise(spiritually speaking). We have a duty to share the Gospel with those who do not it. Whether or not they accept it is between them and the Lord, we must only be worthy instruments in the Lord's hands. He converts, we are the vessel by which that message can be shared. Likewise, if one does not agree or even is maliciously seeking to desicrate our sacred truths, we must not contend. This unfortunately is my GREATEST struggle. At the same time maintaining defense of plain and simple truths(for me, drawing that line is tough). So in the end, even the greatest of scoffers ye shall not convert, but plant a seed for that conversion. One thing I took to heart in the book "Tools for a Missionary", was that we will not baptize or convert every person we see, but we can plant a seed in every willing household. For there will be those of future generations that come upon those that have had that seed planted and will be able to be baptized because of what you did at an earlier time. My baby sitter (about 8 years ago) in my earlier years was a convert to the Church. Her comment to my mother on conversion, was that sometimes it takes 12 years of fellowship(which was her case). We must only have faith that by sharing the word, the Lord's chosen shall hear the word and heed it, and return to the fold. When and how is not for us to judge, nor to worry(again, I struggle mightily with this one). However, the Lord does know that we care, and that care for others can sometimes be seen and taken as judgement. And in some cases(including some of my own) it is judgement, which is not good. But none are perfect save it be the Lamb of God. So all I can say is, put your shoulder to the wheel, and walk in the manner that your Father in Heaven has instructed you.

[sgallan]

Let me tell you a little true story Ray......

We had been inactive for about 6 months or so. And a couple Brothers came over to our house, I guess to try to reactivate us. I just stayed quiet. My wife did the talking. She said she loved God and Jesus Christ, felt the spirit stronger, felt more at peace, worshipping God without the trappings of the church/religion. It was very kindly and sincerely said. After all of that one of those gentlemen said to her, "since you've decided not to have Christ in your life".... well Denise knows me, and she knew what was coming, so she left the room. Suffice it to say it was a good thing he was an older and somewhat simple guy as it could have been worse. He disrespected my wife in a blatant way. A REALLY bad thing to do with a Gallan male around (lots of family stories in this regard). I firmly, stridently, and just barely politely, gave them a piece of my mind. When they tried to interrupt, I raised my voice accordingly, until it became a bit of a lecture. It was my house afterall. Funny, that was over two years ago; no one has returned.

Ray, I see a lot of you in that gentlemen I lectured out of my house never to return.....

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by sgallan@Mar 8 2004, 07:15 PM

Let me tell you a little true story Ray......

We had been inactive for about 6 months or so. And a couple Brothers came over to our house, I guess to try to reactivate us. I just stayed quiet. My wife did the talking. She said she loved God and Jesus Christ, felt the spirit stronger, felt more at peace, worshipping God without the trappings of the church/religion. It was very kindly and sincerely said. After all of that one of those gentlemen said to her, "since you've decided not to have Christ in your life".... well Denise knows me, and she knew what was coming, so she left the room. Suffice it to say it was a good thing he was an older and somewhat simple guy as it could have been worse. He disrespected my wife in a blatant way. A REALLY bad thing to do with a Gallan male around (lots of family stories in this regard). I firmly, stridently, and just barely politely, gave them a piece of my mind. When they tried to interrupt, I raised my voice accordingly, until it became a bit of a lecture. It was my house afterall. Funny, that was over two years ago; no one has returned.

Ray, I see a lot of you in that gentlemen I lectured out of my house never to return.....

You rejected a servant of Christ? Why? I would hope that Ray would have a great deal of the same qualities that a servant of the Lord would have. That comment that you no longer wish to have Christ in your life was not ment in Gest. By what do you base your "knowing of Christ in your life?" I have been blessed because I do not struggle with that of the Gospel. And I cannot say I understand what standpoint you come from. The fact that you still feel loved is a feeling that everyone should have, but Christ said that he even loved those that sinned to the highest degree. So is feeling his love a basis of truth. I don't really think so, it's part of it, but the underlining factor is the Holy Ghost. I was up from 1-5 a.m. this morning scouring the Bible for that which signifies the plain and simple truths. I found a great deal of information and I am stumped, what is it that makes you feel as though the Church is trapping you, or confining your ability to know Christ? Also, those men that came to your did so out of love and charity, whether you believe so or not. Remember what the Savior said EVEN TO SIMON PETER when Peter was trying to convince him not to enter into Jerusalem and the ensuing torment. "Get behind me Satan". I'm pretty sure those words cut deep, but sometimes, the harshness of the word comes to those who are offenders of the truth. I am not accusing you of anything, but I am confused. You claim that in your perspective we are not the one true Church, nor do you wish to have such precepts brought upon you in any manner, yet you continue to visit an LDS forum, in which most of us are only trying to spread the Gospel to those who don't have it. In this case, we are not coming into your home, you are coming into ours.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 8 2004, 06:34 PM

You rejected a servant of Christ?  Why?

Because true servants of Christ are not arrogant dorks.

I think it was disrespectful for this "servant of christ" to tell Sgallan's wife that she had decided not to have Christ in her life", when she very clearly said that she "loved God and Jesus Christ, felt the spirit stronger, felt more at peace, worshipping God without the trappings of the church/religion".

He is not making a distinction between Christ and The Church, and implying that if you are not LDS, you are not Christian.

It is the same thing Anti-Mormons say to Mormons. Antis like to say Mormons don't believe in the "real" Christ. This LDS brother was doing the same thing in reverse.

I don't even think the LDS Church leaders take that sort of fanatical view...correct me if I am wrong.

[sgallan]

You rejected a servant of Christ? Why?*****

Because he disrespected my wife. He was lucky I didn't kick his butt. Really. Had it been my dad or late grandpa, or had my dad or late grandpa been there, THEY would have kicked his butt.

*** I would hope that Ray would have a great deal of the same qualities that a servant of the Lord would have.****

Arrogance and lack of humility is strength of your faith? Funny, I went for awhile, that's not what they taught..... though many seem to have missed those lessons.

*** That comment that you no longer wish to have Christ in your life was not ment in Gest. By what do you base your "knowing of Christ in your life?"****

That's my wifes thing. I wouldn't want YOUR Christ in my life.

*** I have been blessed because I do not struggle with that of the Gospel. ****

That's nice.

*** And I cannot say I understand what standpoint you come from.****

I know you can't. Which is why you would make a lousy member missionary to people like my family. You would chase us off. Kind and humble people converted us at one time. These are attributes you do not seem to have. But you are young. I pretty much knew everything at 20 as well. About as immature in my own way even.

*** I found a great deal of information and I am stumped, what is it that makes you feel as though the Church is trapping you, or confining your ability to know Christ?****

That would be my wife. I don't care. She did not like the culture of the church. She is not a young conservative. She has had life experiences you cannot even begin to understand. Really. She is much happier outside of this religion. Worshipping God in her own gentle way. Your church put her in a very bad place emotionally. Bad places emotionally are not safe nor functional for recovering addict/alcoholics.

*** Also, those men that came to your did so out of love and charity, whether you believe so or not.****

That much I will concede. But they were too arrogant to really get across this love and charity you speak of. And to stupid to realize it's not a good idea to insult somebodies spouse in their house. Smart enough however to not try it again. LOL.

*** You claim that in your perspective we are not the one true Church, ****

Nothing personnal. I believe in no church, religion, or god.

nor do you wish to have such precepts brought upon you in any manner, yet you continue to visit an LDS forum, in which most of us are only trying to spread the Gospel to those who don't have it. In this case, we are not coming into your home, you are coming into ours. *****

Yeah, but this is a thread about sharing to folk like me. If you want to reach people even remotely like me; using the techniques those idiots who visited used are hardly functional. Consider this advice if you will. Otherwise, technically I am still a member. Again Porter, if I am so offensive to your sensibilities, you have my information (I'll repeat it if you like). Anytime you want me out of your church..... forward this stuff to the Lake Havasu City SP. I'll back you up on it being me. Just so you know though..... I probably spend more time defending your church than not. AND I have a couple of LDS forums I could send you too, where the true believing members would shred worse for your attitudes than I am. A lot worse. They don't like arrogant and pious attitudes anymore than me. Even the arrogant ones. Would you like the links? I kind of enjoy watching the carnage. The forums are at Delphi and About.com and they ARE LDS forums. I am one of the beloved regulars. Go figure.

[sgallan]

**** I don't even think the LDS Church leaders take that sort of fanatical view...correct me if I am wrong.*****

Tao-

I think they take the view of "not having the fullness of the gospel". But I believe you are correct in they are not so fanatical about it and would have been far gentler and kinder. Well save perhaps BKP and his denizons.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Ray@Mar 8 2004, 05:45 PM

Can anyone tell me why we should talk to people like that or listen to anything they have to say?

I don't quite understand your question Ray. I generally talk to people because I'm interested in their lives and "where they are coming from." If I have nothing in common with them or if they were to reject me as their friend because of religious differences than I would not force myself on them. I would certainly not try to change someone unless they wanted my help changing. If they were already my friend, I would drop the subject of religion if they weren't interested in my opinion. I would not stop being someone's friend if they weren't interested in my religious beliefs.

[Snow]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 8 2004, 06:34 PM

You rejected a servant of Christ? Why?

Hey Porter,

You're only 20 years old. What's the hurry? You have plenty of time to be a self-rigtheous, santimonious, demagogue when you're older. Why be in such a rush right now?

Which by the way, elder, what does your companion say about you posting of the internet? Shouldn't you be out harvesting or something. Forget your your sickle?

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 8 2004, 06:07 PM

Good insight Ray. I have a little story that put things into perspective. I am 20, however, have always stayed close to the youth of the Church. During a combined activity, my former bishop, who is now the presiding High Priest of our ward, had us play a game-if you will. Everyone sat in chairs in a HUGE circle. Then, a large, brown, paper bag with skittles was passed around. The objective was to take two skittles out. If they matched in color, you could start chewing. The minute someone ahead of you got doubles you had to stop. If you didn't get a pair, you had to keep them in your mouth. Well the process repeated itself for nearly 15 minutes, and I had developed a mouthful, likened unto that of a major leaguers chaw. It had gotten so big it was tucked tightly within my lower lip and cheek. Then, he told us to stop and to keep whatever we had left in our mouths. Then, his story and lesson related that which was in our mouths(for me the gigantic, sugary lump of what use to be skittles) to the word of God. The whole message was that if we possess truth and knowledge that is of good fruit and valued by those seeking the light of Christ and the true nature of the Lord(i.e. the Godhead, and not the trinity) why should it remain there. By now, the sugar was seeping into my roots and the three teeth that the skittles were now stuck to were starting to sting. So I gained a great deal of perspective that day. Allbeit from a somewhat sophmoric(for lack of a better phrase) exercise(spiritually speaking). We have a duty to share the Gospel with those who do not it. Whether or not they accept it is between them and the Lord, we must only be worthy instruments in the Lord's hands. He converts, we are the vessel by which that message can be shared. Likewise, if one does not agree or even is maliciously seeking to desicrate our sacred truths, we must not contend. This unfortunately is my GREATEST struggle. At the same time maintaining defense of plain and simple truths(for me, drawing that line is tough). So in the end, even the greatest of scoffers ye shall not convert, but plant a seed for that conversion. One thing I took to heart in the book "Tools for a Missionary", was that we will not baptize or convert every person we see, but we can plant a seed in every willing household. For there will be those of future generations that come upon those that have had that seed planted and will be able to be baptized because of what you did at an earlier time. My baby sitter (about 8 years ago) in my earlier years was a convert to the Church. Her comment to my mother on conversion, was that sometimes it takes 12 years of fellowship(which was her case). We must only have faith that by sharing the word, the Lord's chosen shall hear the word and heed it, and return to the fold. When and how is not for us to judge, nor to worry(again, I struggle mightily with this one). However, the Lord does know that we care, and that care for others can sometimes be seen and taken as judgement. And in some cases(including some of my own) it is judgement, which is not good. But none are perfect save it be the Lamb of God. So all I can say is, put your shoulder to the wheel, and walk in the manner that your Father in Heaven has instructed you.

Please, Porter, PLEASE OH PLEASE use paragraphs! My aging eyes will thank you.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Mar 8 2004, 06:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taoist_Saint @ Mar 8 2004, 06:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 8 2004, 06:34 PM

You rejected a servant of Christ?  Why?

Because true servants of Christ are not arrogant dorks.

I think it was disrespectful for this "servant of christ" to tell Sgallan's wife that she had decided not to have Christ in her life", when she very clearly said that she "loved God and Jesus Christ, felt the spirit stronger, felt more at peace, worshipping God without the trappings of the church/religion".

He is not making a distinction between Christ and The Church, and implying that if you are not LDS, you are not Christian.

It is the same thing Anti-Mormons say to Mormons. Antis like to say Mormons don't believe in the "real" Christ. This LDS brother was doing the same thing in reverse.

I don't even think the LDS Church leaders take that sort of fanatical view...correct me if I am wrong.

Excellent points Tao. :)

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by curvette+Mar 8 2004, 09:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Mar 8 2004, 09:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Mar 8 2004, 05:45 PM

Can anyone tell me why we should talk to people like that or listen to anything they have to say?

I don't quite understand your question Ray. I generally talk to people because I'm interested in their lives and "where they are coming from." If I have nothing in common with them or if they were to reject me as their friend because of religious differences than I would not force myself on them. I would certainly not try to change someone unless they wanted my help changing. If they were already my friend, I would drop the subject of religion if they weren't interested in my opinion. I would not stop being someone's friend if they weren't interested in my religious beliefs.

I agree. My best friend is an X mo...she is my next door neighbor and I would die if I lost her as my friend. She is like a second mom to my kids....

We just don't talk about religion.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 8 2004, 10:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 8 2004, 10:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 8 2004, 06:34 PM

You rejected a servant of Christ?  Why?

Hey Porter,

You're only 20 years old. What's the hurry? You have plenty of time to be a self-rigtheous, santimonious, demagogue when you're older. Why be in such a rush right now?

Which by the way, elder, what does your companion say about you posting of the internet? Shouldn't you be out harvesting or something. Forget your your sickle?

Oh, actually Snow, I only got through two weeks of the MTC. About 3 months before before I went into the MTC(I went in January 14th)things got rough, I as other had to go through my test. Unfortunately I did something that I will never do again. I allowed me to judge me instead of the Big Man Upsturs. I blew little transgressions way out of proportion, and I tried to be perfect. And when I fell short, I got on myself hard. I thought I was humbling myself....but it was actually a self-destructive pattern that was developing. Finally, when I was set apart as a missionary, a certain load lifted from me, like a large part of just getting there was already being accomplished. Throughout this 3 month period I slept maybe 3 hours of actual unconcious, good sleep. However, even in those 3 hours it felt like I was living another life, so when I woke up I was hardly refreshed. There were some things of concern to me that I thought would keep me from a mission, but upon talking to my bishop he told me to stop worrying and that I was ok. However, by this time, the word UNWORTHY was branded in to my brain, so even if I was, I couldn't bring myself to believe it. When I got into the MTC, I still didn't sleep, the first night I was an AP(so I got to deal with a lot of DRAMA), I was reading scriptures for 12 hours a day, and I had 2 ear infections and a sinus infection. Thus if I even laughed I was HACKING up a lung like I had been a habitual chain smoker or something. So all in all, I was in a downward spiral. Eventually they had to send me home on medical leave so I could resolve things, and then come back when everything was ok. The counselor I have now was a Chaplain for our church and knows 5 or 6 of the 12 very well, they have definately had a very big impression on him. He has been a bishop about 3 times as well, so it is like talking to a GA. I really like it. They got me on PAXIL CR to see if that will help me sleep and cut down some of the stress. That was my problem anxiety/depression. So now I am home reading the scriptures like a gangbuster and I have to admit, this time off is good for me, when and if I go back I will be prepared and ready to ship out. As far as being self-righteous, people only really like to consider themselves when speaking of this equation. How is showing concern, and charity towards a person arrogance or self-righteousness??? Harshness of words only has applied(when spoken with a loving intent) to those who have fallen from truth and such statements bruise their pride. Now granted noone is perfect, so how can you call someone arrogant know they are not perfect when ALL they want to do is help you. Life isn't candy coated when you decide to choose a different path from that of the Lord. Also, remember Jesus Christ himself said to an Apostle that was trying to convince him to stay away from his eventual fate, "Get behind me Satan"! Now, let's examine that, a loyal follower, a concerned follower who is trying to look out for his King, and the Lord say what is out there plain of day...GET BEHIND ME SATAN!!! The Lord to an Apostle. Let us not forget that none(in this forum)can claim such foreordained standing upon this earth as those who walked and died for Jesus Christ and the Gospel. And still the Lord did not hesitate to say get behind me Satan. Now, the prideful thing to do for Peter would have been to revolt against such a remark and lament the situation and despise the comments. But what would that tell you?? You wanna know why I am so young and so determined, because I understand very greatly the evils of the world and what weaknesses I have unto those evils. I don't want to toil in things such as fornication, unatural sexuality, alcohol, nicotine, drugs, pornography, loud laughter, evil speaking, murder, theft, Idolatry, blasthfemie. I am not perfect nor will I ever be in this probationary state, but I am more concerned with the Celestial Kingdom and the gifts I have instore if I lose myself in the work and work to build my faith upon the Rock(which is Christ, the Cornerstone). You can call me conceted, or arrogant, or even self-righteous...but I am not here to please you, for I do not worship my God with respect of persons. I understand at least somewhat that of a Eternal perspective, so if I sound like I am cocky, it's just because I want Eternal life more than money, or meaningless sex, or recognition among men. This is just a small part of my progression, so why on Earth would I schuck my conviction, because someone's pride was hurt. You say those men were dorks that visited your home, I say otherwise, God bless those that show concern. If Christ himself came into your own living and ask, why hast thou forsaken thy covenants that thou hast made unto my Father in my name? Would you tell him off? You can play the arrogance card all you like, call me self-righteous, insult me if you like. But I stand by my MORAL CONVICTION. I try every day to walk in a way that Christ would have walked. Judge lest ye be Judged.

[sgallan]

**** Judge lest ye be Judged.****

I just LOVE the irony.....

[inactivetx]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 8 2004, 07:34 PM

You rejected a servant of Christ? Why?

I think the Elder in sgallan's post forgot about the 11th Article of Faith:

"We claim the privlege of worshipping Almighty God according tot he dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privlege, let them worship, how, where, or what they may."

This is encompass respecting the religious practices of those who are not LDS. According to LDS Doctrine, all who live a good life will inherit a glory regardless of whether they believe in an LDS Christ or not. Therefore, the Churches mission is to prepare the Saints for the celestial kingdom and if people aren't interested, then let them be - it is part of God's plan of Free Agency.

[inactivetx]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 9 2004, 02:58 AM

I don't want to toil in things such as fornication, unatural sexuality, alcohol, nicotine, drugs, pornography, loud laughter, evil speaking, murder, theft, Idolatry, blasthfemie. I am not perfect nor will I ever be in this probationary state, but I am more concerned with the Celestial Kingdom and the gifts I have instore if I lose myself in the work and work to build my faith upon the Rock(which is Christ, the Cornerstone).

Loud Laughter is a sin?? Well, count me a sinner!

Dude, you soooooo need to lighten up. I would recommend a book by Stephen E. Robinson called Believing Christ. It is a wonderful book that will helps people understand better the true saving nature of the atonement of Christ. Whiles God's law does require perfection, we only achieve it by linking our imperfection to His and accepting His sacrifice on our behalf. If we keep trying to do it all ourselves, then we are in essence saying we don't need Christ and we are making His sacrafice null and pointless. Don't know about you, but I am thankful that Christ's atonement is available for when I screw up and know that God expects me to screw up and provided a way to repair my relationship with Him. Yes, we are to keep his commandments, but perfection is not to be achieved in this life.

HTH

[Guest bizabra]

BIZ: Is this sooooo hard?

Porter sez:

Oh, actually Snow, I only got through two weeks of the MTC. About 3 months before before I went into the MTC(I went in January 14th)things got rough, I as other had to go through my test. Unfortunately I did something that I will never do again. I allowed me to judge me instead of the Big Man Upsturs. I blew little transgressions way out of proportion, and I tried to be perfect. And when I fell short, I got on myself hard.

I thought I was humbling myself....but it was actually a self-destructive pattern that was developing. Finally, when I was set apart as a missionary, a certain load lifted from me, like a large part of just getting there was already being accomplished. Throughout this 3 month period I slept maybe 3 hours of actual unconcious, good sleep. However, even in those 3 hours it felt like I was living another life, so when I woke up I was hardly refreshed.

There were some things of concern to me that I thought would keep me from a mission, but upon talking to my bishop he told me to stop worrying and that I was ok. However, by this time, the word UNWORTHY was branded in to my brain, so even if I was, I couldn't bring myself to believe it.

When I got into the MTC, I still didn't sleep, the first night I was an AP(so I got to deal with a lot of DRAMA), I was reading scriptures for 12 hours a day, and I had 2 ear infections and a sinus infection. Thus if I even laughed I was HACKING up a lung like I had been a habitual chain smoker or something. So all in all, I was in a downward spiral. Eventually they had to send me home on medical leave so I could resolve things, and then come back when everything was ok.

The counselor I have now was a Chaplain for our church and knows 5 or 6 of the 12 very well, they have definately had a very big impression on him. He has been a bishop about 3 times as well, so it is like talking to a GA. I really like it. They got me on PAXIL CR to see if that will help me sleep and cut down some of the stress. That was my problem anxiety/depression. So now I am home reading the scriptures like a gangbuster and I have to admit, this time off is good for me, when and if I go back I will be prepared and ready to ship out.

As far as being self-righteous, people only really like to consider themselves when speaking of this equation. How is showing concern, and charity towards a person arrogance or self-righteousness??? Harshness of words only has applied(when spoken with a loving intent) to those who have fallen from truth and such statements bruise their pride.

Now granted noone is perfect, so how can you call someone arrogant know they are not perfect when ALL they want to do is help you. Life isn't candy coated when you decide to choose a different path from that of the Lord. Also, remember Jesus Christ himself said to an Apostle that was trying to convince him to stay away from his eventual fate, "Get behind me Satan"! Now, let's examine that, a loyal follower, a concerned follower who is trying to look out for his King, and the Lord say what is out there plain of day...GET BEHIND ME SATAN!!! The Lord to an Apostle.

Let us not forget that none(in this forum)can claim such foreordained standing upon this earth as those who walked and died for Jesus Christ and the Gospel. And still the Lord did not hesitate to say get behind me Satan. Now, the prideful thing to do for Peter would have been to revolt against such a remark and lament the situation and despise the comments. But what would that tell you??

You wanna know why I am so young and so determined, because I understand very greatly the evils of the world and what weaknesses I have unto those evils. I don't want to toil in things such as fornication, unatural sexuality, alcohol, nicotine, drugs, pornography, loud laughter, evil speaking, murder, theft, Idolatry, blasthfemie. I am not perfect nor will I ever be in this probationary state, but I am more concerned with the Celestial Kingdom and the gifts I have instore if I lose myself in the work and work to build my faith upon the Rock(which is Christ, the Cornerstone).

You can call me conceted, or arrogant, or even self-righteous...but I am not here to please you, for I do not worship my God with respect of persons. I understand at least somewhat that of a Eternal perspective, so if I sound like I am cocky, it's just because I want Eternal life more than money, or meaningless sex, or recognition among men. This is just a small part of my progression, so why on Earth would I schuck my conviction, because someone's pride was hurt.

You say those men were dorks that visited your home, I say otherwise, God bless those that show concern. If Christ himself came into your own living and ask, why hast thou forsaken thy covenants that thou hast made unto my Father in my name? Would you tell him off? You can play the arrogance card all you like, call me self-righteous, insult me if you like. But I stand by my MORAL CONVICTION. I try every day to walk in a way that Christ would have walked. Judge lest ye be Judged.

[Guest curvette]

Porter: I am dead serious. You need some real professional help, not some former Bishop who prescribes non stop scripture reading. I'm not being critical of you, but you seriously sound like a manic depressive. The Paxil sounds like it is leaving you in your manic state and pushing you towards psychosis. You are only 20 years old and have your whole life in front of you which could be a good, stable life if you get the help you need and get some counseling and the appropriate medications. If you don't, the swing back could very well be worse than the last one.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Ray@ Mar 8 2004, 05:45 PM

Can anyone tell me why we should talk to people like that or listen to anything they have to say?

Heh, I see that I was misunderstood again, so I’ll try to clarify what I meant.

Should we continue to talk to people about the truth if they don’t accept what we tell them? To what extent should we continue to talk to them, and what should we continue to talk about?

If we can see that people clearly understand what we have already told them, and they keep responding with their own reasoning and rationalizations for refusing to accept what we tell them, when should we stop testifying and trying to explain what we know to be the truth?

This question came up in my mind because I keep seeing people on this forum who seem to go on and on forever trying to help other people understand and accept what we tell them, even after they seem to clearly understand what we have already told them. Does that really do any good?

If there is a limit to how much other people will accept what we tell them, or if there are certain issues we should focus on talking about first, maybe we should agree on what we should talk about and at what point we should stop talking to them when they don’t accept what we tell them?

I first thought that if there are limits to what we should talk about with other people, or if there are certain issues that we should talk about first, that maybe we should focus on talking about the gospel and stop talking to those people about the gospel after it seems clear that they will not accept what we tell them about our knowledge of the gospel. But now I’m wondering why we should talk to other people about anything, after it seems clear that they don’t accept what we tell them. If people don’t accept what we tell them about one thing, why would they accept what we tell them about something else?

I’d also like you to understand that I try to be a good neighbor to the people who live around me, most of whom are not LDS. One neighbor, who lives across the street from me, has a very nice shop in his garage and we often chat about the things he has made or is planning to make. He works with wood and metals, and I like to work with wood too, so we have a fairly good relationship because of that common interest.

I also know that he is very active in his religion, and he knows that I am an active latter-day saint, and even though we sometimes talk about issues related to the gospel, we both only seem to talk about the issues that we know we both agree on. I did give him a video last Christmas, together with a plate of goodies that my wife had made, but since he has never talked about the video I have never talked about it either. I figure that he knows what I believe and that he knows that he can talk to me about my beliefs whenever he wants to, so I leave it up to him to bring those issues up.

My reason for starting this thread was in hopes of getting some input and agreement about ideas concerning what we (LDS) should talk to other people about, and how much we should talk to them when it seems clear that they understand our beliefs, but still do not accept what we tell them.

curvette,

Your response is basically in agreement with what I believe, and I try to do that too. It’s good to see that we can agree about some things. :)

Scott,

I believe that brother of ours should have spoken with a lot more tact and concern for you and your wife, but I wasn’t there and am not sure that I understand all of the details concerning why he said what he said.

If it had been me, based on the details you provided, I would have tried to help your wife understand that our Lord expects certain things from her, and that the so-called “trappings of church/religion” serve a purpose.

That our Lord not only wants her to feel at peace with herself, but that He also wants other people to feel at peace with themselves. That “organized religion” is organized so that other people can find out what things our Lord requires from those of us who wish to follow Him, and that involves serving other people.

It also involves meeting with other people who share common beliefs, to associate and be strengthened by each other, and that involves a place or places where we can meet together. A place that our children can associate with other children, and adults can associate with other adults, as we form and strengthen each other as a society of people who follow our Lord. A society of our Lord’s disciples on Earth that will someday be joined by a society of our Lord’s disciples in heaven, with our Lord coming someday soon to reign on Earth as our King.

It’s not just about what she gets out of knowing God, it’s about helping other people to know God too, and if there is no organized way of doing that, then all is confusion.

[sgallan]

**** If it had been me, based on the details you provided, I would have tried to help your wife understand that our Lord expects certain things from her, and that the so-called “trappings of church/religion” serve a purpose. ****

That would have been fine and polite.

**** That our Lord not only wants her to feel at peace with herself, but that He also wants other people to feel at peace with themselves. That “organized religion” is organized so that other people can find out what things our Lord requires from those of us who wish to follow Him, and that involves serving other people. ****

Ah, here is the hang-up.... there was no peace for her in this church. And we do plenty with regards serving other people

***It also involves meeting with other people who share common beliefs, to associate and be strengthened by each other, and that involves a place or places where we can meet together. ****

A good thing to be sure. But the beliefs in our case were, and are not, remotely common. Quite the opposite actually.

*** A place that our children can associate with other children, and adults can associate with other adults, as we form and strengthen each other as a society of people who follow our Lord. A society of our Lord’s disciples on Earth that will someday be joined by a society of our Lord’s disciples in heaven, with our Lord coming someday soon to reign on Earth as our King. ****

Well and nice for those who "fit in". But she was not remotely being strengthened. Quite the opposite actually. The spirit she had was drifiting away. And the inumerable petty guilts which are part and parcel of this "instructed in all things" religion put her in just a terrible place emotionally. Put her back in the bad ol' addiction days when she had some SERIOUS stuff to feel guilty about.

*** It’s not just about what she gets out of knowing God, it’s about helping other people to know God too, and if there is no organized way of doing that, then all is confusion. ****

Given the number of religions, god beliefs and faiths...... it doesn't really look all that organized to me. But you found one which works well for you. Good. But given the destructive nature of this particular religion on Denise's mental and emotional well being, and given how much more spirit and closeness she feels to her God without the religion attached, she personally is in a far better place without a religion.

[Ray]

Well, Scott, since I’m not in favor of trying to convince people that they should do what I think they should do, I will only say that this is a matter your wife needs to take up with her Lord. She is entitled to come up with her own religion, if she really wants to, but I hope what she really wants is to know what her Lord wants her to do, so she can do that. If she allows other people to prevent her from doing what her Lord assures her that she should do, she isn’t following anybody but herself, or her own ideas about what she should and should not be doing.

And btw, I know from personal experience that sometimes some people in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints let their own personal ideas get in the way of what they should be doing, and I also know that the Church is better society of people when more people in this society are willing to discover and do what our Lord requires from us. We’re not all perfect, but the more of us who try, relying upon the mercy and power of our Lord to help us, the more of us there are to help strengthen and support other people as we all try to discover and do what our Lord requires from us.

In other words, tell her not to freak out when she sees some people in the Church who aren’t perfect yet. There are people who do only what they want to do everywhere.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by bizabra@Mar 9 2004, 08:50 AM

You say those men were dorks that visited your home

No, I said that

[sgallan]

**** Well, Scott, since I’m not in favor of trying to convince people that they should do what I think they should do, I will only say that this is a matter your wife needs to take up with her Lord. ******

She did and is comfortable with her decision.

*** And btw, I know from personal experience that sometimes some people in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints let their own personal ideas get in the way of what they should be doing, and I also know that the Church is better society of people when more people in this society are willing to discover and do what our Lord requires from us. ****

As far as we are concerned your Lord more or less requires people to be like conservative males in SLC. Now if this is cool for the membership, and you..... I have no problem with that. But it didn't work for her. Just caused her a bunch a petty little guilts, which snowballed into bigger guilts, over petty BS stuff. And had little to nothing to do with local members, but instead was more a function of the culture of the entire religion.

**** We’re not all perfect, but the more of us who try, relying upon the mercy and power of our Lord to help us, the more of us there are to help strengthen and support other people as we all try to discover and do what our Lord requires from us.****

It is nice it works for you. Very few members have a clue as to what folks like us are about. Goodness, people in this institution get freaked out about coffee and sleeveless clothing. LOL.... in our world that is almost beyond the pale. We might as well be from different planets.

**** In other words, tell her not to freak out when she sees some people in the Church who aren’t perfect yet. There are people who do only what they want to do everywhere.****

It's not the people dude. It's the entire culture. People like my wife (or me) do not fit in. We do not share many of the same values. It seemed so at first. We are family oriented for example. Fitness buffs who eat right. Faithful to one another. Doting parents. Seemed like a good fit at one time. The details however were not even close. To how we spend time with our family (Sunday's were about it for time with my dad and step-mom as we both live busy lives). To what we do on Sunday in general. To (my opinion) the cultural interpetation of the WOW. To how we want to raise our child. To the clothes we wear. To the movies we watch. To what we believe on most issues. It's ALL different. We are adults. We can make our own decisions. Have been doing so for a long time. Got through some hellacious times while doing so. And do not really need eccalistical authorities suggesting pretty much our every move.