What's The Point?

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by curvette@Mar 10 2004, 11:42 AM

I sorta wondered if Ray went to highschool with Porter's mom.

Hey you guys...curvette and snow...you know the bashing rule... (peace)

Sorry Peace. Looking at Snow's dainty little shoes walking, walking, walking, walking...kinda hypnotizes me. The strangest thoughts start popping off my keyboard!

[sgallan]

Good works are good works...but they don't necessarily equate to godliness. You are familiar with 1 Cor. 13:1-3...right? ****

Don't much care for such Gods.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by sgallan@Mar 10 2004, 12:35 PM

Good works are good works...but they don't necessarily equate to godliness. You are familiar with 1 Cor. 13:1-3...right? ****

Don't much care for such Gods.

Yeah I know...that is why I wanted you to see why there is some opposition to your 'attitudes'...vs your life's experiences.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by curvette+Mar 10 2004, 12:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Mar 10 2004, 12:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--curvette@Mar 10 2004, 11:42 AM

I sorta wondered if Ray went to highschool with Porter's mom.

Hey you guys...curvette and snow...you know the bashing rule... (peace)

Sorry Peace. Looking at Snow's dainty little shoes walking, walking, walking, walking...kinda hypnotizes me. The strangest thoughts start popping off my keyboard!

LOL...I know...those darn walking walking shoes....

[Snow]

Peace,

Like I said, they aren't bad or immoral or wrong or stupid. They have both chosen to be self-righteous and preachy. It's a choice. Obviously it's noticable. I comment of what is noticed. They find value in that approach. I find that approach annoying. That doesn't make them wrong and me right. It means that I find it annoying.

That's all.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 10 2004, 12:34 PM

Looks as if I pegged the Ray-Porter connection perfectly.

Porter,

I don't think you are bad, or evil, or immoral, or stupid or even particularly wrong; just annoying and self-righteous and pretentious and preachy. You know... Ray-in-training.

I appreciate your insight, and your opinion I really do. And Ray, don't worry, I won't let it get to my head. I have about 3 million years of things to learn about this gospel and only about 60 years and clicking to do so. I have been greatly humbled in the past, and let's just say that I am not stupid enoug to repeat the years of my life from 11-18. So I am glad that I come off(to you at least) as self-righteous and preachy, rather that than drinking, screwing, and smoking. the "Eat, Drink, and be Merry for tomorrow we die!" approach just don't cut it for me personally. As far as your perception on me being preachy, I don't live my life in a forum. Plus, we are in a forum that discusses GOSPEL DOCTRINE and PRINCIPLES. So how do you convey principle, consequence, and reason for being without sounding preachy. I have been around those types, they speak with LIPSERVICE, then turn around and do exactly what they are "supposedly" against. I in no way wish to abide by lipservice. It's just like a foil gum wrapper. If you have a cavity, and you bite down on it...it gonna hurt. Why, because their is a flaw, a neglect or abuse of some sort. That nerve is subjective to pointing out flaw when exposed to proper elements that otherwise would not affect a healthy tooth. The same thing with the Gospel, only we all ALWAYS have something to work on. We just believe that we as members or the Church have the opportunity and Doctrine at our disposal to become more like Christ and take advantage of his atoning sacrifice through sacrament and renewing our baptismal covenants.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 10 2004, 01:09 PM

Peace,

Like I said, they aren't bad or immoral or wrong or stupid. They have both chosen to be self-righteous and preachy. It's a choice. Obviously it's noticable. I comment of what is noticed. They find value in that approach. I find that approach annoying. That doesn't make them wrong and me right. It means that I find it annoying.

That's all.

But it is still not good manners to label unfavorably...hmmm? ...............

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by sgallan@Mar 9 2004, 07:07 PM

**** Btw, thank you for that update on my Dad. *****

Small world.

As what you said too Porter - you aint gonna convince nor convert many people by using your religious beliefs as a weapon. Or by using arrogance (Porter always does this and you have your moments). It turns people off. Sure nothing will convince me. But others may lurk. If they think a religious beliefs seems to spawn jerks.... they won't give it a second thought. Denise went to church a couple months ago as a favor to friend whose kid got back from his mission. She ran into a Porter type who tried to drag Reni into Primary. Reni got scared. Denise got annoyed. And that was that. You gotta remember not everybody is like me - a lost cause. You chase those others off before they even get a hint of a testimony, or a strong testimony, then you got nothing. Same sort of thing happened to my in-laws. First Sunday in church after Baptism and people said fairly nasty things about homosexuals. Their kid was of course Gay. So they left after Sacrament..... never to return. I always thought your goal was to BRING people in..... not chase them off.

It's your choices I guess. Something I mention to more conventional fundamentlists as well.

Again, you don't know me bro. I don't force people to do things, nor have I grown up in an environment that has forced me to do things. At about 11 my parents told me that I had a CHOICE on whether I would like to go to church or not. They didn't ever force me and I would go through 6 month intervals where I wouldn't go to church. I have had more ability to choose than any person I know. So to imply that I am the forcing type is not very correct. You can also ask my bishop, he was the youth leader at the time and currently has a son who has kind of fallen away(he's 18) and has been going that route since he was 12. Well, we used to be in the same Sunday School class, and he is one of those rebellious MTV-generation kids. Every Sunday, instead of marching straight laced and buttoned up into Sunday School I would walk with him down the street from our church and just talk. Most sundays we would get down about a mile and a half and then his Dad(who is one of the coolest people I know) would drive up next to us and heard us back in to the church. So I don't think you get a grip on who I am. We are in a discussion forum, in which we are discussing LDS Doctrine, I tend to cut through the posturing and get right down to the heart of the issue. And if you haven't noticed, it helps me keep in mind what I believe in. If you don't review and practice what you "preach" you become a hypocrite, and a liar. A hypocrite is not someone that is imperfect, but at heart has no love or conviction for that which they profess.

[Guest Starsky]

Actually a hypocrite is someone who isn't.

hypocrisy is pretence, deceit, not real.

To be...one must exist in reality.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 10 2004, 06:47 PM

Actually a hypocrite is someone who isn't.

hypocrisy is pretence, deceit, not real.

To be...one must exist in reality.

Peace that is exactly what I said. If I go around preaching LDS Doctrine, then retire each night to every malicious deviant sin that I am opposing daily in public. I am a hyprocrite and no better than those who have need of the spirit.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Peace+Mar 10 2004, 05:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Mar 10 2004, 05:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Mar 10 2004, 01:09 PM

Peace,

Like I said, they aren't bad or immoral or wrong or stupid. They have both chosen to be self-righteous and preachy. It's a choice. Obviously it's noticable. I comment of what is noticed. They find value in that approach. I find that approach annoying. That doesn't make them wrong and me right. It means that I find it annoying.

That's all.

But it is still not good manners to label unfavorably...hmmm? ...............

I'm saying that I don't like it that they're preachy and annoying.

...and you're saying that you don't like that that I take notice of it.

Guess we both state what we don't like in others.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 10 2004, 06:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 10 2004, 06:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Mar 10 2004, 05:31 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Mar 10 2004, 01:09 PM

Peace,

Like I said, they aren't bad or immoral or wrong or stupid. They have both chosen to be self-righteous and preachy. It's a choice. Obviously it's noticable. I comment of what is noticed. They find value in that approach. I find that approach annoying. That doesn't make them wrong and me right. It means that I find it annoying.

That's all.

But it is still not good manners to label unfavorably...hmmm? ...............

I'm saying that I don't like it that they're preachy and annoying.

...and you're saying that you don't like that that I take notice of it.

Guess we both state what we don't like in others.

I know you aren't that thick snow...even though it was a heavy winter....LOL LOL LOL..

Okay...the reason this is funny to me is that my daughter had snow white hair and we called her snowy....when she was little..

We often make jokes about the snow in her behave as well...

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 10 2004, 07:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 10 2004, 07:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Mar 10 2004, 05:31 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Mar 10 2004, 01:09 PM

Peace,

Like I said, they aren't bad or immoral or wrong or stupid. They have both chosen to be self-righteous and preachy. It's a choice. Obviously it's noticable. I comment of what is noticed. They find value in that approach. I find that approach annoying. That doesn't make them wrong and me right. It means that I find it annoying.

That's all.

But it is still not good manners to label unfavorably...hmmm? ...............

I'm saying that I don't like it that they're preachy and annoying.

...and you're saying that you don't like that that I take notice of it.

Guess we both state what we don't like in others.

And I am saying that I don't like the fact that some have chosen base, worldly values, and conciously refute LDS beliefs because it calls to attention the inappropriate(or lack there-of)values of said persons lifestyle. And that I am considered to be self-righteous because I want to be the best person I can possibly be. My intent and your perception are two very different things. I don't look down on others for choosing to indulge in their carnal lusts, but I do not agree with them, nor do I take exception to them. I refuse to worship the Lord with respect of persons. And I am perfectly capable of humbling myself and shrugging those immoral things which weigh me down.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by porterrockwell+Mar 10 2004, 07:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (porterrockwell @ Mar 10 2004, 07:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Snow@Mar 10 2004, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by -Peace@Mar 10 2004, 05:31 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Mar 10 2004, 01:09 PM

Peace,

Like I said, they aren't bad or immoral or wrong or stupid. They have both chosen to be self-righteous and preachy. It's a choice. Obviously it's noticable. I comment of what is noticed. They find value in that approach. I find that approach annoying. That doesn't make them wrong and me right. It means that I find it annoying.

That's all.

But it is still not good manners to label unfavorably...hmmm? ...............

I'm saying that I don't like it that they're preachy and annoying.

...and you're saying that you don't like that that I take notice of it.

Guess we both state what we don't like in others.

And I am saying that I don't like the fact that some have chosen base, worldly values, and conciously refute LDS beliefs because it calls to attention the inappropriate(or lack there-of)values of said persons lifestyle. And that I am considered to be self-righteous because I want to be the best person I can possibly be. My intent and your perception are two very different things. I don't look down on others for choosing to indulge in their carnal lusts, but I do not agree with them, nor do I take exception to them. I refuse to worship the Lord with respect of persons. And I am perfectly capable of humbling myself and shrugging those immoral things which weigh me down.

I guess what it "appears" like, Porter, is that you are superhuman. You can do anything, you know everything, but you don't seem to be operating like someone who knows that all things are only possible through Christ. You come across as someone who relies on his own understanding and don't give God any of the credit or glory. Aside from that one glaring fault, you seem to have it all under control.

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+Mar 9 2004, 01:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taoist_Saint @ Mar 9 2004, 01:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--bizabra@Mar 9 2004, 08:50 AM

You say those men were dorks that visited your home

No, I said that

YES! Give the man proper credit!

Dorks, I LIKE that word. . . . (goes off, skipping lightly and humming under her breath)

[Snow]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 10 2004, 07:55 PM

And I am saying that I don't like the fact that some have chosen base, worldly values, and conciously refute LDS beliefs because it calls to attention the inappropriate(or lack there-of)values of said persons lifestyle. And that I am considered to be self-righteous because I want to be the best person I can possibly be. My intent and your perception are two very different things. I don't look down on others for choosing to indulge in their carnal lusts, but I do not agree with them, nor do I take exception to them. I refuse to worship the Lord with respect of persons. And I am perfectly capable of humbling myself and shrugging those immoral things which weigh me down.

Can I get an "amen" brother!

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jenda@ Mar 10 2004, 08:34 PM

I guess what it "appears" like, …, is that you are superhuman. You can do anything, you know everything, but you don't seem to be operating like someone who knows that all things are only possible through Christ. You come across as someone who relies on his own understanding and don't give God any of the credit or glory. Aside from that one glaring fault, you seem to have it all under control.

Porter has made it clear to me that he considers Jesus to be the person who helps him become the person he strives to be, and I believe I have made it clear that Jesus is the person who helps me become the person I strive to be too. Is there anyone on this board who doesn’t realize that I constantly talk about Faith and what Faith is?

I’m not really concerned with what you guys think about me and what I think. I’m trying to draw your attention to what our Lord has revealed to me and will reveal to each one of you who wants to know the truth. If you disagree with anything I have to say, either try to educate me with what God has revealed to you or ask God whether or not what I have said is true. If you think I’m wrong about something, I believe you should want to help me understand the truth to the best of your abilities, with kindness, but if anybody hopes to teach me something based only on what makes sense to you, stop wasting your time. I’m only interested in hearing what Jesus has revealed to you and discussing what He has revealed to me.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 10 2004, 07:55 PM

And I am saying that I don't like the fact that some have chosen base, worldly values, and conciously refute LDS beliefs because it calls to attention the inappropriate(or lack there-of)values of said persons lifestyle.  And that I am considered to be self-righteous because I want to be the best person I can possibly be.  My intent and your perception are two very different things.  I don't look down on others for choosing to indulge in their carnal lusts, but I do not agree with them, nor do I take exception to them...

That's fine, but why does that justify a "servant of Christ" telling people that they have not accepted Christ, just because they don't accept the LDS version of Christ?

Sgallan's wife admitted she believed in Christ and followed him in her way.

Furthermore, why is belief in Christ necessary to live a righteous life?

Just because Sgallan and his wife do not believe in the LDS version of Christ's Gospel...or even if they did not believe in Christ at all... that doesn't mean that they are "indulging in carnal lusts".

They might be living lives that are just as righteous as yours, based on their own human morality...without needing the authority of the Church and the LDS Gospel to govern their lives.

In fact, I find it admirable that a person can live a moral life without being told to do so by Church authority. It speaks volumes for the basic goodness of humanity.

[sgallan]

"indulging in carnal lusts". *****

I rather like carnal lusts. But only with my wife. Otherwise, I stopped picking on Porter. I think he needs to do what he's doing right now. It maybe the only thing holding him together. I just hope he can outgrow, or get help, for his demons.

[Ray]

Scott has admitted that he enjoys watching pornography, Tao. Do you condone that?

Here’s an excerpt from an article in one of the latest Church News editions:

“Pornography…is destroying countless lives, addicting minds and robbing people of uplifting passions and feelings. It causes people to view one another as objects for their own selfish pleasure, not as humans worthy of respect and basic dignities. It makes them weak and subject to the flesh.

By contrast, the true gospel of Jesus Christ builds moral and inner strength in every man and woman by acquainting them with the eternal truth that they are the sons and daughers of an all-powerful God, and heirs to all that He has. It rescues the finest qualities deep down inside each individual and teaches people how to communicate with the Father of us all.

The most empowering act of all time was the atonement of Jesus Christ, which gives all humans the opportunity to return into the presence of a loving God. Throughout His life, the Savior taught by example, and the example He gave was always as one concerned about others, not His own pleasure.”

I was once addicted to pornography and I know how well how it can degenerate those who are involved in it. It isn’t a harmless pleasure to anyone, whether they’re creating it or “just watching” other people do it.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by sgallan@Mar 11 2004, 02:32 PM

"indulging in carnal lusts". *****

I rather like carnal lusts. But only with my wife. Otherwise, I stopped picking on Porter. I think he needs to do what he's doing right now. It maybe the only thing holding him together. I just hope he can outgrow, or get help, for his demons.

My impression (correct me if I am wrong) is that "carnal lusts" is just a general term for indulging in everything physical that makes you happy, even if it has bad consequences.

It implies "sex" but might not necessarily be confined to that category.

It might include drinking, drugs, smoking, over-eating, violence, etc.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Ray@Mar 11 2004, 02:34 PM

Scott has admitted that he enjoys watching pornography, Tao. Do you condone that?

I didn't know about that. I guess its none of my business.

Is it the business of missionaries to harass him until he stops?

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Ray@Mar 11 2004, 02:34 PM

Scott has admitted that he enjoys watching pornography, Tao. Do you condone that?

Ok, lets forget about Sgallen for right now.

What about someone who lives a righteous life, free from carnal lusts, but does not believe in Christ?

Someone like the Dalai Lama?

Is it justified to tell that person that their religion (or lack of it) is inferior?

[sgallan]

**** I was once addicted to pornography and I know how well how it can degenerate those who are involved in it. ****

Perhaps. But it's their choice and they get paid. It's legal.

**** It isn’t a harmless pleasure to anyone, whether they’re creating it or “just watching” other people do it. ****

I never got addicted. And I can't think of a single person I know who is. I have no doubt it happens. I can also honestly say I have spent less than $100 in my lifetime on any sort of porn. Video rentals or whatever. But I also think religion has "issues" with things sexual. Unhealthy ones at that. Way too many boogeymen.

And Ray, you wonder why my wife doesn't feel welcome in your church. LOL..... listen to yourself sometimes. You say these things, as do others in the supposedly safe enclaves of the Chapel, and do you know who you are talking about? Our family. Our friends. Our peers. Our siblings. Basically most of the people in the world we have come to love and care for. And given our advancing years..... people who have grown up to be decent human beings and contributing members of society. And you would basically call all of them (and us by extension) scum. I can only imagine what would happen if I sat in PH with a bunch of HP's. It would be interesting for sure.

[sgallan]

*** I didn't know about that. I guess its none of my business. ****

Oh yeah; big fan. Lets see, it's been over a year at least. I don't really remember as it's not really an issue in my life. But of course I'm terribly addicted. I watch it with the wife as foreplay from time to time. Guess that makes me a Satan worshipper?