lds2 Posted January 22, 2012 Report Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) Some years ago I received a thrilling call from my doctor saying that in some months I could expect a long awaited and longed for first-born child. Eventually the thrill I felt in this wonderful news turned to trepidation as I realized that there was no way around some unpleasant days ahead. As it turned out there were some trials, yet as I held my baby for the first time I knew that all that I had recently suffered was totally and completely worth him. I look at what lies ahead for us in much the same way. I wish that there were a way around some difficult days but realize that the only way to the glorious promises of the future is through. Yet some day we will be able to look back with joy and know that any trials faced were totally and completely worth Him...His return to Earth! I love the vision of the future…can you imagine when there will be no sick or afflicted, poor or needy, unemployed or homeless, or fear of those who would harm or take advantage? Jesus admonished us to “be not troubled.” I believe the best way to do that is to keep the vision of the new Jerusalem, the redemption of the old, the return of Enoch’s Zion and Christ’s millennial reign continually before our minds…now that vision is truly thrilling!1Yet many of my friends tell me that this last-days stuff is too scary to contemplate…I think Elder Bednar understood such feelings when he said, "Now brothers and sisters, these teachings from modern and ancient prophets about latter-day tests and trials are sobering and solemn. But they should not be discouraging, and we should not be afraid. For those with eyes to see and ears to hear, spiritual warnings lead to increasingly vigilant watching. You and I live in ‘a day of warning.’ And because we have been and will be warned, we need to be, as the Apostle Paul admonished, ‘watching …with all perseverance.’ As we watch and prepare, truly we have no need to fear.”2President Packer gave wonderful hope and promises to the youth this past conference. He said we shouldn’t think that, “The way things are going, the world’s going to be over with. The end of the world is going to come before I get to where I should be.” He then promised, “You can look forward to doing it right—getting married, having a family, seeing your children and grandchildren, maybe even great-grandchildren. If you will follow these principles, you will be watched over and protected and you yourself will know by the promptings of the Holy Ghost which way to go..."Oops…did you get the IF there, I didn’t the first time I heard it. President Packer had shared how his peaceful youth was interrupted by a world war. After joining the military he wondered if he would survive it to see his family again. He was promised in a blessing that if he obeyed the commandments and followed the guidance of the spirit he would be warned of danger so that he “might again be united with your loved ones.” He wanted that blessing very much so he diligently sought to learn how to “listen” to the Holy Ghost so he could feel the “warnings” he was promised. President Packer promised us that we too can hear and listen to the promptings of the Spirit and as we live righteous principles we can also be “watched over and protected.”3A few years ago President Packer speaking again to younger members said, “We move from a generation of ease and entertainment to a generation of hard work and responsibility. We do not know how long that will last...the future will hold trials and difficulties for you...However, fear is the opposite of faith. Do not be afraid! I do not fear.”4 Elder Nelson’s message in the Ensign last month was equally courageous, he said that “difficult days lie ahead” as we expect the prophecies of Paul concerning the persecution of members of the Church to be fulfilled. He gives us assurances, “Yoked with Him, each of us can rise above all of our challenges, no matter how difficult they may be.” He also promised if we “keep ourselves unspotted from the world, worthy to attend His holy temple” we can have “the peace of knowing that we are prepared to meet Him.”5In the August Ensign, President Packer’s son Elder Allan F. Packer wrote, "To gain courage for what lies ahead, we need to be connected to the gospel of Jesus Christ....This is not a time to be naive, unprepared, or unaware...We need to have the Spirit and look to the prophets and our priesthood leaders for guidance."6I decided to “look to the prophets” and went to the last conference messages from the First Presidency. All I can say is WOW! For the Saints who snoozed through their messages it is a great time to wake up! Snoozing reminds me of what I heard Elder Bednar say a year or two ago, “The Lord has on the earth some potential spiritual giants whom He saved for some six thousand years to help bear off the Kingdom triumphantly, and the devil is trying to put them to sleep…what good is a sleepy, neutralized, lukewarm giant...?”7 So what did the First Presidency say while we were sleeping?...specific counsel and direction for what lies ahead.President Uchtdorf was the first to speak saying, "Like two sides of a coin, the temporal and spiritual are inseparable...The Giver of all life has proclaimed, ‘All things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal.’...Unfortunately, there are those who overlook the temporal because they consider it less important. They treasure the spiritual while minimizing the temporal...The one complements the other. The one without the other is a counterfeit of God’s plan of happiness...This work of providing in the Lord’s way is not simply another item in the catalog of programs of the Church. It cannot be neglected or set aside. It is central to our doctrine; it is the essence of our religion. We must not turn aside our hearts or our heads from becoming more self-reliant...The temporal is intertwined with the spiritual. God has given us this mortal experience and the temporal challenges that attend it as a laboratory where we can grow into the beings Heavenly Father wants us to become." President Uchtdorf went on to say that we must not assume that we know what the Lord wants us to know and do…he instructed us to learn what is meant by “providing in the Lord’s way” by searching out its meaning in Provident Living, in the June Ensign and Church handbooks. He said, "It will take all of us working together to successfully apply the principles of welfare and self-reliance.”8After reading President Uchtdorf’s counsel I went to Providentliving.org and was shocked to find that it is now a whole NEW SITE featuring President Uchtdorf’s message and what the Lord wants us to know about providing in His way.9Next President Eyring warned, "We are being prepared for…service that will become more challenging with time" and we must "form a habit of pushing on through the fatigue and fear that might make you think of quitting...staying power comes from working past the point when others would have taken a rest."10Perhaps there was significance for us in President Monson’s titles for his conference addresses, “Stand in Holy Places”11 and “Dare to Stand Alone?”12 In his talks he assured us “you will be entitled to His inspiration and guidance in your life—necessities for each of us if we are to survive spiritually during our sojourn here on earth…it is essential that we are able to face-with courage-whatever challenges come our way…Lest we at any time feel inadequate for the tasks ahead for us….we represent some of His strongest children,” and we must live worthily to have blessings through the ministering of angels.President Eyring has said a few years ago,13 as well in his conference address7 that when the brethren quote other prophets or repeat themselves we should give particular heed to their messages. So I paid special attention when President Monson quoted another prophet, "Said President Benson: ‘In all ages, prophets have looked down through the corridors of time to our day. Billions of the deceased and those yet to be born have their eyes on us. Make no mistake about it—you are a marked generation…For nearly six thousand years, God has held you in reserve to make your appearance in the final days before the second coming of the Lord. Some individuals will fall away, but the kingdom of God will remain intact to welcome the return of its Head—even Jesus Christ…While this generation will be comparable in wickedness to the days of Noah, when the Lord cleansed the earth by flood, there is a major difference this time: [it is that] God has saved for the final inning some of His strongest…children, who will help bear off the kingdom triumphantly.’”11President Benson finished off that paragraph with this prophetic statement, “And that is where you come in, for you are the generation that must be prepared to meet your God."14 In rereading this talk I found it interesting where President Benson talked of “our generation” and then talked to the young adults specifically saying “your generation.”So how are we to prepare? President Monson said in October Conference of 2009, “I am reminded of the words of the Lord found in the book of Ether in the Book of Mormon. Said the Lord, ‘Ye cannot cross this great deep save I prepare you against the waves of the sea, and the winds which have gone forth, and the floods which shall come.’ My brothers and sisters, He has prepared us. If we heed His words and live the commandments, we will survive…”15 While President Monson was talking of spiritual survival, the example he used was of how the Lord prepared a way for the physical survival of his people. Regardless, we are assured that if we heed His words and live the commandments we will be blessed.What are His words we should “heed?" Several years ago the First Presidency sent a “Message” to the Church which they wanted all members to read…at least I believe this was their intent as they gave it to the Bishop’s for distribution to all ward members and then sent it to all of us again in the Ensign a few months later. It said, “Our Heavenly Father created this beautiful earth, with all its abundance, for our benefit and use. His purpose is to provide for our needs as we walk in faith and obedience. He has lovingly commanded us to ‘prepare every needful thing’ so that, should adversity come, we may care for ourselves and our neighbors and support bishops as they care for others. We encourage members worldwide to prepare for adversity in life by having a basic supply of food and water and some money in savings.” (This publication is also where they introduced the new guidelines of a 3-month supply of foods we eat, water storage, a financial reserve and longer-term home storage.)16The First Presidency recently sent the Church a letter in their special section of the June Ensign. Their letter said we should, "become more self-reliant…and help people help themselves. As you review this special section, we encourage you and your family to prayerfully consider and act upon self-reliance and other welfare principles.”17 Later in this section they repeated this counsel, “To provide in the Lord’s way, we must develop our own self-reliance and then seek to help others become self-reliant.”18 Also they define what that means, ”Self-reliance involves several facets of a balanced life, including (1) education, (2) health, (3) employment, (4) family home production and storage, (5) family finances, and (6) spiritual strength.”19 This was the final message from President Monson, “Living welfare principles is about putting our faith in Jesus Christ into action—by eliminating unnecessary debt, living within our means, and establishing family home storage and financial reserves…Our faith leads us to educate our minds and our hands and to work every day of our lives to be self-reliant. Having taken care of our own needs, we are better able to provide for ourselves and serve others. May we follow the counsel not only to do good but strive to be good, not just to do better but to be better. Obedience to the Lord’s counsel brings temporal and spiritual blessings. It allows us to face the challenges of life armed with courage and confidence rather than fear and doubt.”20 May we be courageous and confident as we follow this counsel to have faith and be obedient to His counsel...is my prayer for all of us as we look towards the difficult days in the future as well as the "triumphant" times ahead.__________________1 Elder Marion G. Romney, “Be Not Troubled,” October Conference 19662 Elder David A. Bednar, “Who’s on the Lord’s Side? Now is the Time to Show,” BYU-I Education Week Address, July 20103 Elder Boyd K. Packer, “Counsel to Youth," October Conference 2011 4 President Packer, “Counsel to Young Men,” Ensign, May 20095 Elder Russell M. Nelson, “The Peace and Joy of Knowing the Savior Lives," Ensign, December 2011; BYU Devotional, December 10, 20026 Elder Allan F. Packer, “Solidly Anchored in Our Testimonies,” Ensign, August 20117 Elder David A. Bednar, “Who’s on the Lord’s Side? Now is the Time to Show,” BYU-I Devotional, July 30, 2010 8 President Dieter F. Uchtdorf, “Providing in the Lord’s Way,” October Conference 20119 Welfare and Self Reliance Principles | ProvidentLiving.org10 President Henry B. Eyring, “Preparation in the Priesthood, I Need Your Help,” October Conference 201111 President Thomas S. Monson, “Stand in Holy Places,” October Conference 201112 President Thomas S. Monson, “Dare to Stand Alone,” October Conference 201113 Pres. Henry B. Eyring, “Safety in Counsel,” Ensign, Jun 2008; Video “Providing in the Lord’s Way,” October Conference 201114 President Ezra Taft Benson, “In His Steps,” CES Fireside, Feb. 8, 1987; “In His Steps,” BYU Devotional 1979 15 President Thomas S. Monson, “Closing Remarks,” October Conference 200916 https://lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/04008_eng.pdf?lang=eng (page 2)17 “First Presidency Letter,” June 1, 2011, Ensign, June 201118 “Providing in the Lord’s Way,” Ensign, June 201119 “Catching the Vision of Self-Reliance,” Ensign, June 201120 President Thomas S. Monson, “The Way of the Lord,” Basic Principles of Welfare and Self-Reliance; “Making Principles of Welfare Part of Your Life,” Ensign, June 2011 Edited February 12, 2012 by lds2 Quote
lds2 Posted January 22, 2012 Author Report Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) Every new year for years I have been updating and adding to my original collection of prophets quotes called "Be Not Afraid" as a gift to my friends and family and as a way to keep track of all the last-days quotes I like to collect. Originally, I wrote it as a talk that I wish that someone could have given to my area as my ward and stake do not have a preparedness specialist and many are confused about what we are actually supposed to be doing as instructed by the apostles and prophets. As this is again a collection of quotes gathered to clear up some of that confusion I do not feel "ownership" of it and would be delighted if it encouraged someone to become self-reliant so that should calamity come they would be in a position to survive and help others survive rather than being numbered among the poor and needy. As you know only a very few families in each ward are prepared to survive something like a pandemic or far-reaching earthquake. After the big Chilean earthquake there were very few that had any water or food to share with a missionary that had just arrived in the field 3 weeks before...I will always be grateful to that one family in that ward prepared to have sufficient to share with him and others. Since some have asked already you have my permission if you feel so inspired to e-mail this (parts or whole) to family, friends and those with stewardship for others, use it on faithful LDS blogs or your personal LDS social network, use it for LDS talks or lessons, or use it as a handout at LDS preparedness fairs. To save us all from reading something 20+ pages long this year, I decided to just include the most recent quotes from the apostles and prophets. My previous "collection" is also here with a similar title. While I did my best, if you noticed any inaccuracies from my copying or paraphrasing the prophets words or something that needs to be edited please let me know. I hope you like it. Char Van Kouwenhoven Edited January 22, 2012 by lds2 Quote
Matthew0059 Posted January 22, 2012 Report Posted January 22, 2012 Very good article! Thank you for sharing, lds2. Quote
lds2 Posted February 12, 2012 Author Report Posted February 12, 2012 Thanks Matthew...I appreciate your thanks. I like to collect the quotes on this from the prophets and there have been A LOT in the last year. It's a good resource if anyone needs to give a talk as I included the sources at the bottom. I hope it will be useful to someone. Quote
lds2 Posted March 29, 2012 Author Report Posted March 29, 2012 This talk is what they said last year...can't wait to hear what guidance we will get this weekend!!! I LOVE CONFERENCE. I LOVE CONFERENCE. I LOVE CONFERENCE. I LOVE CONFERENCE. :) Quote
lds2 Posted April 1, 2012 Author Report Posted April 1, 2012 (edited) Some notes to remember as there were some interesting quotes this April conference... I wondered what Elder Holland meant when he said, "It is getting late." Elder Hales talked of "temporal self-reliance" and getting on higher ground so that we can help others. He then talked about doing this so that we won't regret what we didn't do for others. Elder Richard G. Scott's words on receiving Heavenly Guidance to help us through adversity was important I thought. Sister Beck talked of becoming spiritually and temporally self-reliant. President Monson talked of how trivial matters lose their importance in times of crisis. He later said that "we live in troubled times." Elder L. Tom Perry talked about the Lord's ability to deliver. Brother Pieper reminded us to remember our sacred experiences when life gets difficult Elder Neil L. Andersen tells us that there is a difficult road ahead. Edited April 1, 2012 by lds2 Quote
Timpman Posted April 5, 2012 Report Posted April 5, 2012 “You can look forward to doing it right—getting married, having a family, seeing your children and grandchildren, maybe even great-grandchildren. If you will follow these principles, you will be watched over and protected and you yourself will know by the promptings of the Holy Ghost which way to go..."I really hope Pres. Packer is talking about raising families DURING the millennium. I am one of those guys who wants the world to end NOW. Quote
Vort Posted April 5, 2012 Report Posted April 5, 2012 I really hope Pres. Packer is talking about raising families DURING the millennium. I am one of those guys who wants the world to end NOW.That's because we think that "the end of the world" means all the wicked will be wiped off the face of the globe. I'm concerned that too many people I care about, including myself, might not make the cut. More time for repentence is a good thing. Quote
Dravin Posted April 5, 2012 Report Posted April 5, 2012 More time for repentence is a good thing.Yep, even if one is ready that doesn't mean everybody is. And while the end will come at some point later means more time for others to repent and come unto Christ. Which in the end, despite what trials it entails, is a good thing.If my desires could affect when the end of the world occurred (I don't believe they do) I'd hate to think I effectively cut short someone else's mortal probation for my own benefit. Not that one shouldn't look forward to the coming of the Lord of course, but in wishing for our great day (once again, suppose one is ready) we're wishing for other's terrible day. It's something to keep in mind. Quote
Timpman Posted April 5, 2012 Report Posted April 5, 2012 Okay, I see your point. I just happen to not like weeds, disease, murder, war, etc. :) Quote
HEthePrimate Posted April 5, 2012 Report Posted April 5, 2012 Two points:(1) When, since the Garden of Eden, have people not lived in troubled times?(2) I hope that when people talk about "having faith in Christ," they don't mean sitting on their hands waiting for God to come, fix all our problems for us, and hand us a wonderful life on a silver platter. If that's what they mean, then I'm afraid they will be sorely disappointed, because I don't think that's what God has in mind.IMHO, we are responsible for our own lives and for solving our own problems. Christ may come again and guide us, but much of the very hard work of fixing our society will be up to us. I'm not even convinced that when Jesus comes again he is necessarily going to destroy all our enemies, as that would run counter to what he teaches ("turn the other cheek," "love your enemies," etc.). Perhaps he'll use his power to stop whatever fighting is going on at the time, get our attention, and convince us to work out our differences with other people in a peaceable manner.One concern that I have is that people who expect God to do everything for us will throw up their hands and not even try to make things better, which in my opinion makes them part of the problem, not the solution. Faith involves more than just believing in something--it involves acting upon your belief. Quote
Timpman Posted April 5, 2012 Report Posted April 5, 2012 I'm not even convinced that when Jesus comes again he is necessarily going to destroy all our enemies, as that would run counter to what he teaches ("turn the other cheek," "love your enemies," etc.)He will definitely destroy MOST of them. WE are taught to turn the other cheek in day-to-day life, but God can destroy nations. See Old Testament Student Manual - Enrichment I - The Battle of Armageddon: A Prophetic ViewIn what will be one of the blackest moments of Israel’s history, just as it appears that they are about to be annihilated, the Lord’s fury will be unleashed upon the kingdoms of the world (see Ezekiel 38:18 ), and the Lord will “go forth, and fight against those nations” ( Zechariah 14:3 )....The result will be that only one-sixth of the invading army will survive the Lord’s judgments (see Ezekiel 39:2 ), and their power to make war will be destroyed. Quote
HEthePrimate Posted April 5, 2012 Report Posted April 5, 2012 (edited) Sorry, but I don't believe that any more than I believe that God commanded the Israelites to commit genocide (See Deut. 20:16-18 where he supposedly tells them to kill every man, woman, and child.) That may have been the Israelites' excuse to kill lots of people, but I don't believe God actually commanded that. God is good, he is not a monster. Actually, let me qualify this. Perhaps God would kill wicked people in order to prevent them slaughtering the righteous and innocent. But wholesale slaughter of millions of non-combatants? I don't buy it. Edited April 5, 2012 by HEthePrimate Quote
Timpman Posted April 5, 2012 Report Posted April 5, 2012 Okay, I guess it's your right to discount the scriptures. :) Quote
Vort Posted April 5, 2012 Report Posted April 5, 2012 God is good, he is not a monster.Actually, let me qualify this. Perhaps God would kill wicked people in order to prevent them slaughtering the righteous and innocent. But wholesale slaughter of millions of non-combatants? I don't buy it.Whether or not you "buy" it is irrelevant. As you say, God is good (by definition), not a monster. Therefore, whatever God orders to happen is good. Including the willful killing of a helpless man, or the destruction of an entire civilization.Your opinion is inconsistent. Do you believe that God takes the life of anyone, innocent children or guilty adults? If so, what is the difference between God doing so and God commanding his authorized servants to do so? Quote
Timpman Posted April 5, 2012 Report Posted April 5, 2012 Innocent people who were slaughtered got to leave their dreadful mortal life. It helps to have a more eternal perspective. Quote
BenRaines Posted April 5, 2012 Report Posted April 5, 2012 As I mentioned in an earlier thread mortal life is just a moment in eternity. Death or suffering in this life will be a faint memory. We will learn and gain experience in this life. I have a scar on my hand. I remember vividly how it got there. I don't remember if it hurt when it happened but I remember how it happened. I am hoping that is how mortal life is. We will remember the things we learned but the pain and suffering will be forgotten. Ben Raines Quote
mrmarklin Posted April 5, 2012 Report Posted April 5, 2012 Sorry, but I don't believe that any more than I believe that God commanded the Israelites to commit genocide (See Deut. 20:16-18 where he supposedly tells them to kill every man, woman, and child.) That may have been the Israelites' excuse to kill lots of people, but I don't believe God actually commanded that.God is good, he is not a monster.Actually, let me qualify this. Perhaps God would kill wicked people in order to prevent them slaughtering the righteous and innocent. But wholesale slaughter of millions of non-combatants? I don't buy it.If one looks at history, God usually lets the wicked kill each other. A lot of wickedness was destroyed in WWI and II as an example. A lot of wicked people are being destroyed in the current war on terror. A lot of evil dictatorships have fallen in the last several years, and those dictators and their minions are being punished. I think this is the kind of stuff God means when He talks about the destruction of the wicked.Don't know about Deut 20:16-18., but I'm inclined to think that certain crimes were being punished in these wars, and that God wanted to have those people put to death. And when it didn't always happen that way, He punished Israel! I don't think that God would have ordered indiscriminate killing. Quote
lds2 Posted April 6, 2012 Author Report Posted April 6, 2012 Okay, I see your point. I just happen to not like weeds, disease, murder, war, etc. :)I don't like all the children and others that are neglected, abused, starved, or molested. I feel a bit guilty sometimes that they suffer while I can have more days of hot showers, hot food, a warm bed and a loving family. Not saying I don't want these things, just that when I realize how millions of children suffer each day...Did you read how 500,000 - 700,000 Christians have been told to move out of Sudan by April 8th or else? "The ethnic cleansing of over half a million Christians is only a first step. What's notable about this is the hideous silence." Articles: Silent Scream: The Sudan Ethnically Cleanses Its Christians Quote
HEthePrimate Posted April 6, 2012 Report Posted April 6, 2012 (edited) Okay, I guess it's your right to discount the scriptures. :)It's not about discounting the scriptures. Unless you're talking about paying a lower price for a quad at Deseret Book. What it's about is interpreting the scriptures and deciding what is true or untrue, useful or not useful. When it comes right down to it, if you want a coherent set of beliefs, we are all forced to "pick and choose" from the scriptures, because scriptures are often unclear or contradictory, and can be used to support virtually any point of view. So the real question is how to sift out the scriptural chaff so you can use the scriptural wheat.One thing that may help is to determine what the general message of the scriptures is, rather than focusing on one or two verses exclusively. For example, if you have one verse in the Bible that says it's evil to eat broccoli and you'll go to hell if you eat it, but you have twenty verses that say that broccoli is good, that show prophets eating broccoli, or state that all nutritious vegetables are for the use of God's children, it's probably safe to eat broccoli.Continuing revelation is another way to determine what scriptures mean and which ones carry the most weight. We talk enough about that at church it's not necessary to elaborate further.Personal revelation can also be useful. If you're confused about the meaning of scriptures, or dismayed by how they contradict each other, it's entirely fair to ask God to give you insights and guidance.Finally, there's Moroni chapter 7, which teaches how to tell if something comes from God. If it teaches you to believe in Christ and do good things, then it's probably from God. If you're hearing voices telling you to burn down your neighbor's house, it's probably not from God, because burning down your neighbor's house is bad (even if you do believe in Christ!).And of course, that goes along with the Light of Christ, which serves as a general guide to right and wrong. Because of the Light of Christ, pretty much everybody knows it's not good to walk up to somebody in the street and punch them in the face. If a missionary from another church gives you their book of scripture that says you should punch someone in the face at least once a month, you'll probably scoff at it and have nothing to do with their religion. (At least, I hope you would!)It seems to me that the preponderance of evidence indicates that it's wrong to commit genocide. The general message in the scriptures is "Thou shalt not kill," "love thy enemies," and "turn the other cheek," etc. Modern prophets exhort us to treat others kindly, and not kill each other. The Light of Christ tells me not to kill innocent people, and personal revelation (as well as logic) backs that up, and elaborates, telling me that genocide is bad because it involves killing innocent people. Moroni 7 says if something persuades people to do evil, then it is of the devil. Genocide is evil, and therefore clearly not of God, and so I conclude that God did not command the Israelites to commit genocide.I rather like Ockham's Razor, which states that the simplest explanation is usually correct. You have to do all kinds of mental gymnastics to explain why a benevolent God would command people to commit genocide, or why an extremely violent god would be worthy of worship. It seems more sensible to me to go with the far simpler explanation that God did not command the Israelites to commit genocide, and those verses in the Bible are either a mistake or a whitewash of the real reasons they committed a war crime.Too many people in this world think that God approves of them commiting violence. The 9/11 terrorists thought they were doing God's will, after all, punishing the "infidel" Westerners for our sins. It makes me nervous to hear Mormons use similar reasoning. Edited April 6, 2012 by HEthePrimate Quote
HEthePrimate Posted April 6, 2012 Report Posted April 6, 2012 If one looks at history, God usually lets the wicked kill each other. A lot of wickedness was destroyed in WWI and II as an example. A lot of wicked people are being destroyed in the current war on terror. A lot of evil dictatorships have fallen in the last several years, and those dictators and their minions are being punished. I think this is the kind of stuff God means when He talks about the destruction of the wicked. Don't know about Deut 20:16-18., but I'm inclined to think that certain crimes were being punished in these wars, and that God wanted to have those people put to death. And when it didn't always happen that way, He punished Israel! I don't think that God would have ordered indiscriminate killing.It makes sense to me that if people are being wicked, God would not have to impose a punishment per se, but that the wicked would essentially punish themselves and each other. "Those who live by the sword die by the sword." There's that old saying, "Righteousness is its own reward." Maybe wickedness is its own punishment, too?That said, I can picture a righteous God stepping in at times to protect the innocent from the wicked. Maybe he does that sometimes, but from watching the evening news, it's obvious that he doesn't intervene all the time. Or even most of the time. I suppose that's a topic for another thread, though. Quote
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