Hypocrisy

March 11, 2004

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 10 2004, 05:08 PM
yes or no will do(actually kind of a self reflecting question). Let's say that you walked with the Savior during his ministry...Would you with disbelief in your heart require a miracle of the Savior as physical proof of his ability and true nature? Or would you rely on prayer and true intent to know the Savior and his mission by the confirmation of the Holy Ghost? I would choose the latter myself, so my answer to the first question is NO!

How on earth could anybody answer that question? His disciples all witnessed his miracles. Jesus didn't expect them to sacrifice their lives for His gospel until they had witnessed those things. They had their proof and they gave their lives for it. Even Paul (who didn't live side by side with the Savior) had an indisputable witness. None of them did what they did strictly by faith.

March 11, 2004

Originally posted by curvette+Mar 10 2004, 05:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Mar 10 2004, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 10 2004, 05:08 PM
yes or no will do(actually kind of a self reflecting question). Let's say that you walked with the Savior during his ministry...Would you with disbelief in your heart require a miracle of the Savior as physical proof of his ability and true nature? Or would you rely on prayer and true intent to know the Savior and his mission by the confirmation of the Holy Ghost? I would choose the latter myself, so my answer to the first question is NO!

How on earth could anybody answer that question? His disciples all witnessed his miracles. Jesus didn't expect them to sacrifice their lives for His gospel until they had witnessed those things. They had their proof and they gave their lives for it. Even Paul (who didn't live side by side with the Savior) had an indisputable witness. None of them did what they did strictly by faith.

Again with the good points Curvette!

porterrockwell · March 11, 2004

Originally posted by curvette+Mar 10 2004, 06:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Mar 10 2004, 06:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 10 2004, 05:08 PM
yes or no will do(actually kind of a self reflecting question). Let's say that you walked with the Savior during his ministry...Would you with disbelief in your heart require a miracle of the Savior as physical proof of his ability and true nature? Or would you rely on prayer and true intent to know the Savior and his mission by the confirmation of the Holy Ghost? I would choose the latter myself, so my answer to the first question is NO!

How on earth could anybody answer that question? His disciples all witnessed his miracles. Jesus didn't expect them to sacrifice their lives for His gospel until they had witnessed those things. They had their proof and they gave their lives for it. Even Paul (who didn't live side by side with the Savior) had an indisputable witness. None of them did what they did strictly by faith.

We are also asked not to tempt our Lord for a sign. The only proof I need is the Holy Ghost. I can answer that question. And again it is a resounding NO! They didn't say, prove to me that ye are the Christ or I can in ways follow thee! They had faith, they witnessed things that were miracles sufficient to their faith. Granted their faith was not perfect, but did not Peter in one instance walk on water because of his faith. I guess again, I have had an easier time grasping faith, and really can't understand the other side of it. Maybe that is what I am here for, is to understand just how someone can have such a lack of faith.

March 11, 2004

It is true that faith preceeds the miracle...but not everyone who witnessed those miracles had the faith which produced them.

porterrockwell · March 11, 2004

I guess that my point is, from now till Christ comes, if I don't see one miracle, or one grain of sand of historical evidence that the BOM existed as written by ancient prophets, it's not going to change my belief, because the true witness is the Holy Ghost. I also agree with your statement, which is why it kills me that people ask for proof and signs. If you base your belief on worldly proof, well, then you won't stand in any one camp too long.

March 11, 2004

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 10 2004, 05:58 PM
I guess that my point is, from now till Christ comes, if I don't see one miracle, or one grain of sand of historical evidence that the BOM existed as written by ancient prophets, it's not going to change my belief, because the true witness is the Holy Ghost. I also agree with your statement, which is why it kills me that people ask for proof and signs. If you base your belief on worldly proof, well, then you won't stand in any one camp too long.

That is good Porter....and your last statement is very true ... :)

March 11, 2004

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 10 2004, 05:58 PM
I guess that my point is, from now till Christ comes, if I don't see one miracle, or one grain of sand of historical evidence that the BOM existed as written by ancient prophets, it's not going to change my belief, because the true witness is the Holy Ghost. I also agree with your statement, which is why it kills me that people ask for proof and signs. If you base your belief on worldly proof, well, then you won't stand in any one camp too long.

You are really full of yourself. You're a young pup though, so there's still hope. :)

Jenda · March 11, 2004

Originally posted by curvette+Mar 10 2004, 06:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Mar 10 2004, 06:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 10 2004, 05:58 PM
I guess that my point is, from now till Christ comes, if I don't see one miracle, or one grain of sand of historical evidence that the BOM existed as written by ancient prophets, it's not going to change my belief, because the true witness is the Holy Ghost. I also agree with your statement, which is why it kills me that people ask for proof and signs. If you base your belief on worldly proof, well, then you won't stand in any one camp too long.

You are really full of yourself. You're a young pup though, so there's still hope. :)

You know, that is how I kind of viewed myself 20 years ago and now I'm kind of sad that that person died somewhere along the way. She has been reborn, thank goodness, but I would have liked to have held onto those characteristics instead of following the ways of the world.

Way to go, Porter. (But tone it down a notch or two. )

March 11, 2004

Originally posted by Peace+Mar 10 2004, 05:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Mar 10 2004, 05:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Taoist_Saint@Mar 10 2004, 01:01 PM

The historical facts of the Bible (and the possible proofs for the BoM) only prove that the HISTORY is true.
It does not prove the theology is true.
That is the point I am trying to make.
In both cases (Traditional Christianity and Mormonism) it is all up to faith.

Well that is interesting...but I don't know how you could separate the two.

Well, we can prove certain historical things from the Bible.

For example, we know Jerusalem existed and was under Roman rule.

But the miracle stories (The Flood, The Virgin Birth, The Resurrection, etc.) cannot be proven and must be based on faith.

The Theology is based more on the miracle stories, not the history and geneologies listed in the Bible.

March 11, 2004

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 10 2004, 04:33 PM
You are right, it is about faith. Anybody who could believe in Mormonism clearly has 10x the faith I have.

Anyone who can believe in Christianity in any form has 1000x the faith I have.

Many people have allowed their faith to overstep their intelligent judgment.

No argument here

porterrockwell · March 11, 2004

Originally posted by Jenda@Mar 10 2004, 08:11 PM
You are really full of yourself. You're a young pup though, so there's still hope. :)

Way to go, Porter. (But tone it down a notch or two. )

1...I am confident that if I am worthy and longsuffering I will be capable of that which the Lord has called me to this earth to do. Your as much as an ignorant, base, fool as I am full of myself. Only you aren't a young pup I would hope that you sense of urgency is a lot more abrupt and motivating than mine at this point.

Secondly, I am one of the most mellow, fellowshipping people you would know. This forum is for discussion, if you think you can come in here, refute principles, challenge doctrine, and slam LDS for believing what they believe and being honest with you, and then get offended when we defend ourselves and our principals valiantly. If I was to do as I do in the REAL WORLD I probably wouldn't have posted by now. BUt that is what these forums are for, if we are not allowed to be as passionate in defense as those against us are in accusation then what is the point of this board.

It's always fun to ruffle a few feathers until you take one in the grill, then it's gone too far(typical)!

I'll tone it down, when the attitude of those here is too learn and not scoff.

March 11, 2004

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 10 2004, 07:48 PM
if you think you can come in here, refute principles, challenge doctrine, and slam LDS for believing what they believe and being honest with you, and then get offended when we defend ourselves and our principals valiantly.

I AM LDS you dummy.

porterrockwell · March 11, 2004

Originally posted by curvette+Mar 10 2004, 08:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Mar 10 2004, 08:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 10 2004, 07:48 PM
if you think you can come in here, refute principles, challenge doctrine, and slam LDS for believing what they believe and being honest with you, and then get offended when we defend ourselves and our principals valiantly.

I AM LDS you dummy.

Coulda fooled me!

March 11, 2004

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 10 2004, 08:04 PM
Coulda fooled me!

Why? Because I can't happen to stand my LDS brethren who are Nephi wannabes?

Snow · March 11, 2004

Originally posted by porterrockwell@Mar 10 2004, 07:48 PM

I'll tone it down, when the attitude of those here is too learn and not scoff.

Okay Capitan.

I'd like to hear you speak of one thing, one single little thing that, um, say, I, could learn from you.

Cal · March 11, 2004

Originally posted by Peace+Mar 10 2004, 06:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Mar 10 2004, 06:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 10 2004, 05:58 PM
I guess that my point is, from now till Christ comes, if I don't see one miracle, or one grain of sand of historical evidence that the BOM existed as written by ancient prophets, it's not going to change my belief, because the true witness is the Holy Ghost. I also agree with your statement, which is why it kills me that people ask for proof and signs. If you base your belief on worldly proof, well, then you won't stand in any one camp too long.

That is good Porter....and your last statement is very true ... :)

Now Peace--- before we decide that it is ok to believe in something that has no basis in reality, shouldn't we also allow for other things, that also have no basis in reality, to be true?
For example---lots of Japanese believe that their dead ancestors are the ones that watch out for them, not a God. They have strong belief in this--every bit as strong as our belief in mormonism. Can we then say they are right also?

March 11, 2004

Originally posted by Cal+Mar 10 2004, 10:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Mar 10 2004, 10:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -Peace@Mar 10 2004, 06:09 PM
<!--QuoteBegin--porterrockwell@Mar 10 2004, 05:58 PM
I guess that my point is, from now till Christ comes, if I don't see one miracle, or one grain of sand of historical evidence that the BOM existed as written by ancient prophets, it's not going to change my belief, because the true witness is the Holy Ghost. I also agree with your statement, which is why it kills me that people ask for proof and signs. If you base your belief on worldly proof, well, then you won't stand in any one camp too long.
That is good Porter....and your last statement is very true ... :)

Now Peace--- before we decide that it is ok to believe in something that has no basis in reality, shouldn't we also allow for other things, that also have no basis in reality, to be true?
For example---lots of Japanese believe that their dead ancestors are the ones that watch out for them, not a God. They have strong belief in this--every bit as strong as our belief in mormonism. Can we then say they are right also?

I allow nothing that the Spirit hasn't confirmed as truth.

Cal · March 11, 2004

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 10 2004, 11:28 PM

I guess that my point is, from now till Christ comes, if I don't see one miracle, or one grain of sand of historical evidence that the BOM existed as written by ancient prophets, it's not going to change my belief, because the true witness is the Holy Ghost. I also agree with your statement, which is why it kills me that people ask for proof and signs. If you base your belief on worldly proof, well, then you won't stand in any one camp too long.
That is good Porter....and your last statement is very true ... :)
Now Peace--- before we decide that it is ok to believe in something that has no basis in reality, shouldn't we also allow for other things, that also have no basis in reality, to be true?
For example---lots of Japanese believe that their dead ancestors are the ones that watch out for them, not a God. They have strong belief in this--every bit as strong as our belief in mormonism. Can we then say they are right also?
I allow nothing that the Spirit hasn't confirmed as truth.

Peace--I hear "born agains", and Catholics and many other religious people claim the SAME "confirmation of the Spirit" of their beliefs that you do. How do we know they are wrong and you are right?

March 11, 2004

Well...I have learned one thing....the Lord goes with the best choice you have at the moment.

If all you have is the choice between the devil and the Christian faith...(in general) he will confirm their faith in that.

But if they get the opportunity to hear the gospel as JS restored it, and they are sincerely ready, hungering and thirsting for the truth, they will be given a confirmation of it....also...but on a progressive level.

I learned this once when i asked for an answer about leaders and who to follow. The Lord told me to follow one whom I knew wasn't perfect....over the one who I thought was better.

At the time I wondered why....I later found out some pretty hairy things about the one I thought was better...and found that the other one was awesome...and I just didn't know it at the time.

I don't know if that all made sense to you or not.

What I am trying to say is...the Lord will answer you according to what you have and what you need...He won't come down to a Catholic who is not looking beyond his own backyard, and say...go over to the Mormons they have the truth.

However, If a Catholic investigates the book of Mormon and Joseph Smith with a sincere, humble, earnest desire to know the truth, even if it takes him out of his comfort zone.... he will be given to know that they are true....even if earlier on...before he came into contact with the Mormons...he received a confirmation that his religion was right by the Spirit.

This because....it was what he needed to hold on to until the further light and knowledge came to him through the missionaries.

Do you understand what i am saying?

Tr2 · March 12, 2004

Anyone who can believe in Christianity in any form has 1000x the faith I have

Just when I think I have you figured out, you leave me speechless. Don't you consider yourself to be mormon (mormonism professes to be christianity)?

March 12, 2004

I don't know if I have ever prayed about the BoM with a totally open and sincere heart. I tried to be sincere when I prayed, but recieved nothing. However, I did find some of the stories in the book inspiring. I may be a member of the Church, and I may not have many problems with it...but I haven't had any luck changing my beliefs.

I wonder if I just don't have a sincere, humble, earnest desire to know the truth?

I wonder how many LDS who were born into the Church took time to step out of their comfort zone and truly investigate another religion or philosophy with a sincere heart?

I know a lot of LDS who have done this (from talking on message boards), and they have left the Church...either to join another religion, or to live with no religion. I wonder if they were investigating the other religions and philosophies, and examining the LDS religion with a sincere, humble, earnest desire to know the truth?

How does one know if they are being humble and sincere?

Jenda · March 12, 2004

How does one know if they are being humble and sincere?

They are willing to ask with an open heart and an open mind. (I think the open mind thing is harder to attain.)

They aren't afraid to admit they made a mistake when presented with the truth God reveals to them.

They are willing to put aside their own carnal lusts to embrace the mission the Lord gives.

They understand that the Lord's will is more important than their own.

For starters.

March 12, 2004

Hmm...I thought I was praying with an open heart and open mind.

I guess I wasn't.

Either that or the Holy Ghost is testing me.

Cal · March 12, 2004

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 11 2004, 08:40 AM
Well...I have learned one thing....the Lord goes with the best choice you have at the moment.
If all you have is the choice between the devil and the Christian faith...(in general) he will confirm their faith in that.
But if they get the opportunity to hear the gospel as JS restored it, and they are sincerely ready, hungering and thirsting for the truth, they will be given a confirmation of it....also...but on a progressive level.
I learned this once when i asked for an answer about leaders and who to follow. The Lord told me to follow one whom I knew wasn't perfect....over the one who I thought was better.
At the time I wondered why....I later found out some pretty hairy things about the one I thought was better...and found that the other one was awesome...and I just didn't know it at the time.
I don't know if that all made sense to you or not.
What I am trying to say is...the Lord will answer you according to what you have and what you need...He won't come down to a Catholic who is not looking beyond his own backyard, and say...go over to the Mormons they have the truth.
However, If a Catholic investigates the book of Mormon and Joseph Smith with a sincere, humble, earnest desire to know the truth, even if it takes him out of his comfort zone.... he will be given to know that they are true....even if earlier on...before he came into contact with the Mormons...he received a confirmation that his religion was right by the Spirit.
This because....it was what he needed to hold on to until the further light and knowledge came to him through the missionaries.
Do you understand what i am saying?

Well, your "test of the truth" is a Catch 22". If a person doesn't get your 'confirmation' then he didn't pray hard enough. You eliminate the alternative answer and you turn away and say, "he didn't pray hard enough". So, no matter what the truth REALLY is, it can never be tested in Mormonism because the very thing that COULD either verify it or disprove it is eliminated from the test by your "he didn't pray hard enough".
IOW according to you, there can be only ONE answer to the question, which means that it is not REALLY a question at all. So why bother to pray, when there is only ONE possible answer?
There are lots of people that either get no "answer" at all, or get the answer of NO, it's not true. But according to you, that can't be a REAL answer.
You are always back in the same place, no matter where you start. The mormon test of "truth" is really no test at all.

March 12, 2004

I guess I didn't pray hard enough

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