Latter-day Saint Movement

[Tyler90AZ]

It is clear that anything billed as a movement people join quickly, the youth that is. It is also clear the mormon.org advertising was successful. Why not advertise to get people to join Gods movement? It is pertinent that we continue to make being Mormon "hip." There are many youth looking where they will go.

What does everyone think?

Edited March 8, 2012 by Tyler90AZ

[RipplecutBuddha]

It could work, but I have a feeling there would be many that join for the wrong reasons. Heck, there are some that do so anyway.

My thought on this is while it's a sound theory, the reason I think the LDS Church has been so enduring is because it has consistently been the opposite of a 'movement'. It's never been popular or fashionable to be a Mormon outside of large LDS population centers. I think it needs to be that way because for the time being, it's a built-in method of weeding out those who never have the faith, or never desire to have the faith required of membership.

We already have issues within the church regarding inactivity and convert retention. I think using the 'movement' notion would possibly gain some traction in convert baptisms, but in the long haul, I think the problems with retention would balloon from where they are now.

Being a Mormon shouldn't be considered 'hip' so much as it is considered normal, and that's what I think the point of the recent ad campaign is. When you go down the road of trendy, you're marking the beginning of the end as well. MP3 players were 'hip' for quite a long time, but now with most phones having them as standard features, you see fewer of them for sale, so the stand-alone MP3 is going to cease to be sold at some point.

When someone looks at joining the LDS Church it needs to be understood that the association is intended for the long haul, not just until something else 'hip' comes along to make your life all about. After all, the LDS Church really is for what life is all about. It's far more significant than any 'movement' society can dream up. The presentation of the Church to the public needs to reflect that.

[Tyler90AZ]

It could work, but I have a feeling there would be many that join for the wrong reasons. Heck, there are some that do so anyway.

My thought on this is while it's a sound theory, the reason I think the LDS Church has been so enduring is because it has consistently been the opposite of a 'movement'. It's never been popular or fashionable to be a Mormon outside of large LDS population centers. I think it needs to be that way because for the time being, it's a built-in method of weeding out those who never have the faith, or never desire to have the faith required of membership.

We already have issues within the church regarding inactivity and convert retention. I think using the 'movement' notion would possibly gain some traction in convert baptisms, but in the long haul, I think the problems with retention would balloon from where they are now.

Being a Mormon shouldn't be considered 'hip' so much as it is considered normal, and that's what I think the point of the recent ad campaign is. When you go down the road of trendy, you're marking the beginning of the end as well. MP3 players were 'hip' for quite a long time, but now with most phones having them as standard features, you see fewer of them for sale, so the stand-alone MP3 is going to cease to be sold at some point.

When someone looks at joining the LDS Church it needs to be understood that the association is intended for the long haul, not just until something else 'hip' comes along to make your life all about. After all, the LDS Church really is for what life is all about. It's far more significant than any 'movement' society can dream up. The presentation of the Church to the public needs to reflect that.

I guess hip was the wrong word, maybe honorable is a better word. As Latter-day Saints we all know that it is honorable to be a Saint, or we should. I think if we "sold" that point, we would gain more converts. I also mean hip as in cool/different for the youth. We already "sell" that anyway, The Church establishes itself as the opposite of the World.

As far as a movement goes, we are already a movement in my eyes. The movement is about getting people to God, not a temporary movement. The Church just needs to sell what were already doing. I am not proposing adding something completely new to The Church, just making it fit this generation(change wording). Use the following, Gods Movement, join the movement, be a part of something good and make a difference in this world. You would be surprised at how much interest that would generate in The Church.

You make an interesting point about convert retention. However, I don't see a difference about gaining a convert that way or from the I'm a Mormon commercials, it is the same thing. In my mind, the problem with retention would not be worse, since this would attract youth. Also the commercials don't really gain converts they just generate interest in the church.

I agree with you on the I'm a Mormon ad campaign, that was about making us look normal. That is why it is important to capitalize on that media attention(when Mormon is done running for Pres) and run another campaign behind it. Think of the I'm a Mormon campaign as an elias. The elias principle holds true in many facets of life, something needs to soften the ground.

[HEthePrimate]

I think it needs to be that way because for the time being, it's a built-in method of weeding out those who never have the faith, or never desire to have the faith required of membership.

I'm sorry, but I don't think the Spirit of Christ is about "weeding people out." Jesus tries to draw all people to him, and we should follow his example.

We already have issues within the church regarding inactivity and convert retention.

That is an important problem. I don't think we're going to solve it by saying "Screw what people think/want/need, we have our own special way of doing things," but by showing them how the Gospel is relevant to their lives, and making the Church helpful to them in a real-life way. Edited March 10, 2012 by HEthePrimate

[Traveler]

I'm sorry, but I don't think the Spirit of Christ is about "weeding people out." Jesus tries to draw all people to him, and we should follow his example.

That is an important problem. I don't think we're going to solve it by saying "Screw what people think/want/need, we have our own special way of doing things," but by showing them how the Gospel is relevant to their lives, and making the Church helpful to them in a real-life way.

Are you familiar with the parable of the wheat and the tears? The meaning of tears is weeds - looks like “weeding out” to me.

From the very beginning G-d has been about separating the light from the darkness - He will finish that process in what is called the final judgment - Again it looks a lot like weeding out to me.

The Traveler

[HEthePrimate]

Are you familiar with the parable of the wheat and the tears? The meaning of tears is weeds - looks like “weeding out” to me.

From the very beginning G-d has been about separating the light from the darkness - He will finish that process in what is called the final judgment - Again it looks a lot like weeding out to me.

The Traveler

The tares are those who think they're better than everybody else and would therefore exclude "undesirables" from their company. In other words, they're like the self-righteous Pharisees who Jesus reprimanded, as opposed to the sinners, who Jesus reached out to. Essentially, the tares weed themselves out. It has nothing to do with not having enough faith, as implied in the OP, or not holding orthodox beliefs, or anything like that. It's about the attitude people have about others, and how they treat other people.

[Just_A_Guy]

HEthePrimate, what scripture or authoritative commentary backs up your proposed interpretation? Jesus Himself identified the tares as the "children of the wicked one" - full stop.

Mormonism is kind of an odd dichotomy because we do teach that, at the last days, the vast majority of earth's population--even the liars, adulterers, etc. who we think of as "telestial" - will inherit a form of salvation and go to a version of heaven. On the other hand, a number of features of Mormonism are set up to divide the Mormons from the non-Mormons. Whether it be word of wisdom adherence, dress and grooming/number of earrings, the advice against R-rated movies, exclusive temples and secret (yes, sacred too, but to all intents and purposes, secret) liturgies, temple garments . . . so much of Mormon culture reinforces, in the mind of the worshiper, the idea that he or she is somehow different than "the world"; and I think it's that way by design.

We certainly don't want to be obnoxious or self-righteous. I have no problem with PR so long as it remains true to the fundamental values of the Gospel. But on the other hand--I don't know that we do the Church, ourselves, investigators/new converts, or our decidedly non-Mormon friends any favors when we try to minimize our differences, downplay the code of righteous living and (occasionally) socially divisive behavior that Mormonism does in fact emphasize, or pretend that Jesus doesn't understand that conformance to His Gospel will be inherently divisive.

[HEthePrimate]

On the other hand, a number of features of Mormonism are set up to divide the Mormons from the non-Mormons. Whether it be word of wisdom adherence, dress and grooming/number of earrings, the advice against R-rated movies, exclusive temples and secret (yes, sacred too, but to all intents and purposes, secret) liturgies, temple garments . . . so much of Mormon culture reinforces, in the mind of the worshiper, the idea that he or she is somehow different than "the world"; and I think it's that way by design.

Maybe certain LDS leaders set up certain things to divide Mormons from non-Mormons, but God's commandments are meant to bring people together, not divide them. That's what atonement is about. It's what sealing the entire human race together is about. It's what the missionary work is about. Satan drives people apart, and it is Satan's children (like the Pharisees) who insist on setting themselves apart (that's even what the word "Pharisee" means) from everybody else. Yes, a division will occur, but it's not God doing the dividing, except to protect the innocent from "ravening wolves" and the like. But God would rather convert the wolves so they are no longer a threat.

Things like the prohibition on multiple earrings, beards, and insisting on guys wearing white shirts are superficial indications of false righteousness. You are right that they are meant to separate Mormons from non-Mormons, but they have nothing to do with morality or worthiness, and are not commandments from God. The ancient church had its pharisees, and the modern church has its pharisees.

The garments and the temple ordinances have nothing to do with dividing Mormons from others. They have to do with making covenants with God, and teaching us things we need to know for our eternal exaltation, and building up Zion, and reminding us of our covenants. God, and the Church, would like for everybody to eventually come to the temple and receive those things.

For the most part the tares (or the goats, if you will) will separate themselves from the wheat. Only the predatory ones that insist on attacking people and disrupting the work will be forcibly cast out in order to protect the innocent. People like the pharisees.

So, after saying all that, I guess we're both right. As Joseph Smith said, "By proving contraries, truth is made manifest!"

Edited March 10, 2012 by HEthePrimate

[Tyler90AZ]

Are you familiar with the parable of the wheat and the tears? The meaning of tears is weeds - looks like “weeding out” to me.

From the very beginning G-d has been about separating the light from the darkness - He will finish that process in what is called the final judgment - Again it looks a lot like weeding out to me.

The Traveler

I think his point was that it is not our job to weed out anybody, that is Christ's job during the Second Coming.

[Tyler90AZ]

HEthePrimate, what scripture or authoritative commentary backs up your proposed interpretation? Jesus Himself identified the tares as the "children of the wicked one" - full stop.

Mormonism is kind of an odd dichotomy because we do teach that, at the last days, the vast majority of earth's population--even the liars, adulterers, etc. who we think of as "telestial" - will inherit a form of salvation and go to a version of heaven. On the other hand, a number of features of Mormonism are set up to divide the Mormons from the non-Mormons. Whether it be word of wisdom adherence, dress and grooming/number of earrings, the advice against R-rated movies, exclusive temples and secret (yes, sacred too, but to all intents and purposes, secret) liturgies, temple garments . . . so much of Mormon culture reinforces, in the mind of the worshiper, the idea that he or she is somehow different than "the world"; and I think it's that way by design.

We certainly don't want to be obnoxious or self-righteous. I have no problem with PR so long as it remains true to the fundamental values of the Gospel. But on the other hand--I don't know that we do the Church, ourselves, investigators/new converts, or our decidedly non-Mormon friends any favors when we try to minimize our differences, downplay the code of righteous living and (occasionally) socially divisive behavior that Mormonism does in fact emphasize, or pretend that Jesus doesn't understand that conformance to His Gospel will be inherently divisive.

It is not The Church's fault that we are so far apart from the world. Last conference the Prophet eluded to the fact that the world is getting farther apart from us. The Church's standards have always been the same, the world is causing the chasm. The only things that set us apart are the Garments and Temple. When The Church was 'created' the world was not even suppose to know about them.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Tyler90AZ

[Just_A_Guy]

It is not The Churches fault that we are so far apart from the world. Last conference the Prophet eluded to the fact that the world is getting farther apart from us. The Churches standards have always been the same, the world is causing the chasm. The only things that set us apart are the Garments and Temple. When The Church was 'created' the world was not even suppose to know about them.

In some respects, you're absolutely right--dishonesty, vulgarity, and promiscuity, for example, are much more tolerated now; and the Church hasn't changed on those.

On the other hand - the Word of Wisdom was, in a sense, counter-cultural from the time Joseph Smith received it--even if you place it in the historical context of the Grahamite movement, it was still an aberration from the larger society. The original garment design did rule out some popular clothing styles for women and men even in Victorian times. (Off-the-shoulder gowns were practically standard for women at formal social events; and just the other day I came across a photograph of early 20th century workmen wearing short sleeves--the original temple garment would have ruled out both of these, as it extended to the wrists and the ankles.) Popular entertainment has not always been as squeaky-clean as it was during the period when the Hays Code was enforced.

As for the world not being supposed to know about the garment and the temple liturgy originally - you may be right; but the Mormons knew about them; and to the extent that I suggest the Church deliberately fosters a sense of exclusiveness my suggestion is that it attempts to do so among its members, not among outsiders.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Just_A_Guy

[RipplecutBuddha]

My point was that we are supposed to be separate from the world around us. It's how the whole thing has been designed from the beginning. Heck, The city of Zion was so separated from the world around it, God took it from the earth itself.

The real issue, to me, is that yes there is a temptation to follow trends in the world around us to become more palatable to those who might be interested in learning more. But....therein lies a slippery slope. After all, Jesus is the head of the church, and there don't seem to be any indications that we ought to try to 'fit in' more.

Yes there are honorable movements, however it really isn't in the program of the church to 'keep up with the times' as it were. The lasting power of the doctrines we teach speak for themselves. Any time you want true lasting happiness, follow Christ. No other organization delivers what the LDS Church offers in my experience. Many come close, but none match it.

Jesus himself said that the gospel he taught was a two-edged sword that would divide families and nations. While it's not a desired outcome, he knew it would happen, and he's right. The gospel is what it is, and the exclusivity of the LDS church need make no apologies for itself.

"What I the Lord have spoken I have spoken and excuse not myself. And though the heavens and the earth shall pass away, my word shall not pass away but shall all be fulfilled. Whether by mine own voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same."

We want people to join the church, of course, but it's got to be in accordance with Christ and his teachings. Nothing less is enough.

[HEthePrimate]

The only things that set us apart are the Garments and Temple.

I sincerely hope that's not true. What ought to set the Saints apart is their Christlike behavior and open arms to other men (and women), not their underwear and special temple ceremonies. In fact, I would argue that Christlike attitude is exactly what the temple teaches. The temple is not meant to be a secret club for the "cool" people who are more righteous than everybody else to pat themselves on the back. It's supposed to be a school where we learn how to become more like God by treating our fellow beings as he would. Edited March 10, 2012 by HEthePrimate

[HEthePrimate]

My point was that we are supposed to be separate from the world around us. It's how the whole thing has been designed from the beginning. Heck, The city of Zion was so separated from the world around it, God took it from the earth itself.

I think you're missing my point. We are supposed to keep ourselves as unspotted from the world's sins as we can, but we are not supposed to be separate. The Plan of Salvation is not a long exercise in sorting out the "good guys" from the "bad guys"--it's about trying to bring the "bad guys" into our bosom by converting them to the ways of God. If they refuse, and many do, well, we can't force them. But we need to keep trying to bring them unto Christ. The Gospel is about At-one-ment, not separation.

[Tyler90AZ]

My point was that we are supposed to be separate from the world around us. It's how the whole thing has been designed from the beginning. Heck, The city of Zion was so separated from the world around it, God took it from the earth itself.

The real issue, to me, is that yes there is a temptation to follow trends in the world around us to become more palatable to those who might be interested in learning more. But....therein lies a slippery slope. After all, Jesus is the head of the church, and there don't seem to be any indications that we ought to try to 'fit in' more.

Yes there are honorable movements, however it really isn't in the program of the church to 'keep up with the times' as it were. The lasting power of the doctrines we teach speak for themselves. Any time you want true lasting happiness, follow Christ. No other organization delivers what the LDS Church offers in my experience. Many come close, but none match it.

Jesus himself said that the gospel he taught was a two-edged sword that would divide families and nations. While it's not a desired outcome, he knew it would happen, and he's right. The gospel is what it is, and the exclusivity of the LDS church need make no apologies for itself.

"What I the Lord have spoken I have spoken and excuse not myself. And though the heavens and the earth shall pass away, my word shall not pass away but shall all be fulfilled. Whether by mine own voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same."

We want people to join the church, of course, but it's got to be in accordance with Christ and his teachings. Nothing less is enough.

That is just it, what I said in the OP was not to make the church more 'palatable.' The Church is already a movement, we are trying to change the world. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints wants everybody to come unto Christ. A lot of educated non members also view us as part of the 'Mormon Movement.' The Church should market that, it is what would make this generation interested in The Church.