Coming unto Christ

[skalenfehl]

After reading various posts over time, I want to share some personal insight based on prayerfully studying the scriptures and countless hours of prayer and supplication. I hope this helps all true seekers of Christ.

James 1

1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

Moroni 10

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Moroni, who abridged the book of Ether is speaking to YOU and to ME:

Ether 4

1 And the Lord commanded the brother of Jared to go down out of the mount from the presence of the Lord, and write the things which he had seen; and they were forbidden to come unto the children of men until after that he should be lifted up upon the cross; and for this cause did king Mosiah keep them, that they should not come unto the world until after Christ should show himself unto his people.

2 And after Christ truly had showed himself unto his people he commanded that they should be made manifest.

3 And now, after that, they have all dwindled in unbelief; and there is none save it be the Lamanites, and they have rejected the gospel of Christ; therefore I am commanded that I should hide them up again in the earth.

4 Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.

5 Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should seal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord.

6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.

7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

Furthermore in Ether 4 we read:

11 But he that believeth these things which I have spoken, him will I visit with the manifestations of my Spirit, and he shall know and bear record. For because of my Spirit he shall know that these things are true; for it persuadeth men to do good...

13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.

14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.

15 Behold,when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.

16 And then shall my revelations which I have caused to be written by my servant John be unfolded in the eyes of all the people. Remember, when ye see these things, ye shall know that the time is at hand that they shall be made manifest in very deed.

Moroni continues to expound things to us in his own Book of Moroni:

Moroni 7

3 Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peaceable followers of Christ, and that have obtained a sufficient hope by which ye can enter into the rest of the Lord, from this time henceforth until ye shall rest with him in heaven...

9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.

Right here Moroni is telling us how to pray. He is telling us to have fullness of purpose and fullness of heart. Remember King Lamoni and his father?? They both gave up their kingdoms and all their sins to know God. Their people were the most righteous in all the land after their conversion! This is what God wants and what He requires, naturally. Why should He give us heavenly gifts that we will not take seriously? The entire chapter of 7, Moroni is preparing us to receive the Book of Mormon and what kind of heart we need to have to receive it. But we must believe! After all, the spirit of revelation or prophecy is the testimony of Jesus Christ as John tells us in the New Testament!

27 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased because Christ hath ascended into heaven, and hath sat down on the right hand of God, to claim of the Father his rights of mercy which he hath upon the children of men?

28 For he hath answered the ends of the law, and he claimeth all those who have faith in him; and they who have faith in him will cleave unto every good thing; wherefore he advocateth the cause of the children of men; and he dwelleth eternally in the heavens.

29 And because he hath done this, my beloved brethren, have miracles ceased? Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither have angels ceased to minister unto the children of men.

30 For behold, they are subject unto him, to minister according to the word of his command, showing themselves unto them of strong faith and a firm mind in every form of godliness.

If we aren't experiencing miracles in our lives, it is because we aren't offering up our hearts. And I hope everyone is experiencing miracles in their lives today. I know that I am. And if you've received your patriarchal blessings, I hope you've experienced many that are promised to you.

35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?

36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?

37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain...

48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

Don't just pray once in a while. The brother of Jared had some repenting to do because he stopped praying. And yet he saw great things, greater than any man has ever seen. Do we have a testimony of the Book of Mormon? Do we pray like Enos did? The way Alma prayed and fasted? People like Nephi and Enos, Alma, etc, they prayed and fasted for days at a time. And they understood the law of sacrifice, of having a broken heart and contrite spirit. They had absolutely no care for Babylon, they were not distracted by even the smallest worldly things. If they were alive today, they would not be wasting time on Facebook or watching garbage on television. They would not go shopping or to football games or doing anything in Babylon that distracted them from "the work." What work? The Lord's work in His vineyard. "When thou are converted, strengthen thy brethren." They would be feeding and clothing strangers, doing their hometeaching, attending all their meetings, paying full tithes and giving everything in church offerings. This is why they had access to heavenly things.

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things...

8 And again, I exhort you, my brethren, that ye deny not the gifts of God, for they are many; and they come from the same God. And there are different ways that these gifts are administered; but it is the same God who worketh all in all; and they are given by the manifestations of the Spirit of God unto men, to profit them.

per Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. I am breaking it up into paragraphs (One big paragraph is too cumbersome).

Section One 1830-34, p.12

Every man lives for himself. Adam was made to open the way of the world, and for dressing the garden. Noah was born to save seed of everything, when the earth was washed of its wickedness by the flood; and the Son of God came into the world to redeem it from the fall. But except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. This eternal truth settles the question of all men's religion. A man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit. He may receive a glory like unto the moon, [i.e., of which the light of the moon is typical], or a star, [i.e., of which the light of the stars is typical], but he can never come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels; to the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, unless he becomes as a little child, and is taught by the Spirit of God.

Wherefore, we again say, search the revelations of God; study the prophecies, and rejoice that God grants unto the world Seers and Prophets. They are they who saw the mysteries of godliness; they saw the flood before it came; they saw angels ascending and descending upon a ladder that reached from earth to heaven; they saw the stone cut out of the mountain, which filled the whole earth; they saw the Son of God come from the regions of bliss and dwell with men on earth; they saw the deliverer come out of Zion, and turn away ungodliness from Jacob; they saw the glory of the Lord when he showed the transfiguration of the earth on the mount; they saw every mountain laid low and every valley exalted when the Lord was taking vengeance upon the wicked; they saw truth spring out of the earth, and righteousness look down from heaven in the last days, before the Lord came the second time to gather his elect; they saw the end of wickedness on earth, and the Sabbath of creation crowned with peace; they saw the end of the glorious thousand years, when Satan was loosed for a little season; they saw the day of judgment when all men received according to their works, and they saw the heaven and the earth flee away to make room for the city of God, when the righteous receive an inheritance in eternity.

And, fellow sojourners upon earth, it is your privilege to purify yourselves and come up to the same glory, and see for yourselves, and know for yourselves. Ask, and it shall be given you; seek and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.--E&MS August, 1832. DHC 1:282-284.

Ether 3

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

But not only the brother of Jared, but many others from Moses to Nephi to Moroni...

D&C 93

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

[prisonchaplain]

Something we share is our tendency to complain loudly, offer a few passionate prayer-protests, and then to curse the very tarrying that the Lord gives us. He would refine us through the fires of waiting, purifying us and bestowing strength upon us. None of that meshes well with our preferences, which have been fashioned mostly by the invention of the microwave. Great stuff Skalenfehl!

[skalenfehl]

PC, beautifully and concisely put. I may well quote you and often!

[cryophil]

I appreciate you inviting me to read this. What I saw was a lot of advocacy to leaping with faith, nothing waivering, trusting and keeping the faith, so that in the end you can have a true witness and see God.

One of the difficulties I have with this path is that it uses confirmation bias to get an answer.

This is a well known psychological phenomena used to get belief in something that has no evidence.

If I get a witness from the Holy Ghost which is prescribed, consistently verified and clearly not self-created, then I have a much better starting point. That is why I asked my question in the other thread.

Unfortunately, no one really seems to have a clear answer for that process. I'm surprised that if the Supreme Intelligence wants us to find his truth that he would use faith, rather than humble acceptance of facts, as the way. Faith and confirmation bias makes one susceptible to unfounded claims.

[skalenfehl]

In your thread I asked you two, no three questions:

1. What did Christ tell the Nephites to do when they couldn't understand what He was expounding to them? (The Son of God was IN THEIR PRESENCE and they still couldn't understand what he was trying to teach them.

2. What else did Christ admonish them to do? Hint: He told them to search ______.

3. Have you read the Book of Mormon completely through at least once?

You say that no one really seems to have a clear answer for that process, but it's there in front of you. I laid it out clearly above. It is simple, though not necessarily easy and countless prophets have told you how they did it and how you can do it. Christ already taught us HOW to experiment on His words, if you MUST use some empirical means.

[HiJolly]

I appreciate you inviting me to read this. What I saw was a lot of advocacy to leaping with faith, nothing waivering, trusting and keeping the faith, so that in the end you can have a true witness and see God.

One of the difficulties I have with this path is that it uses confirmation bias to get an answer.

This is a well known psychological phenomena used to get belief in something that has no evidence.

But confirmation bias is not evil or bad. It simply *is*. Yet you attempt to influence our perception of it by use of negative verbiage.

The vigor with which we evaluate makes all the difference. The bias is, therefore, not negative nor misleading, especially when we recognize that it exists.

If I get a witness from the Holy Ghost which is prescribed, consistently verified and clearly not self-created, then I have a much better starting point. That is why I asked my question in the other thread.

Yep. Worthy of vigorous pursuit.

Unfortunately, no one really seems to have a clear answer for that process.

Sorry about that. We tried.

I'm surprised that if the Supreme Intelligence wants us to find his truth that he would use faith, rather than humble acceptance of facts, as the way. Faith and confirmation bias makes one susceptible to unfounded claims.

Sure, that's possible. Even likely. Nevertheless, Alma 32 nails it. Just add patience, and it's a lock. Sorry you are surprised. Faith is clearly the *first* principle of the Gospel.

1. Trust that belief can make you happy & safe.

2. Trust that acting in accordance with belief is a good thing.

3. Trust that feelings that come from actions are meaningful and valid.

4. Trust that you can properly interpret your feelings.

5. Evaluate your interpretations in light of steps 1-4.

6. Based on #5, continue your path, or change your path.

7. Repeat.

In the Psalms, it says "Who shall ascend into the House of the Lord? Or Who shall stand in His holy place? He that hath clean hands and a pure heart." What a gem of wisdom. It is with these "clean hands" and "pure heart" that we can trust in steps 1-4 above.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

In your thread I asked you two, no three questions:

1. What did Christ tell the Nephites to do when they couldn't understand what He was expounding to them? (The Son of God was IN THEIR PRESENCE and they still couldn't understand what he was trying to teach them.

2. What else did Christ admonish them to do? Hint: He told them to search ______.

3. Have you read the Book of Mormon completely through at least once?

You say that no one really seems to have a clear answer for that process, but it's there in front of you. I laid it out clearly above. It is simple, though not necessarily easy and countless prophets have told you how they did it and how you can do it. Christ already taught us HOW to experiment on His words, if you MUST use some empirical means.

Your #1 is priceless. Beautiful. Thanks for that.

It seems to me that we have given all that can be given. I feel that our approaches in answering were very diverse and coming from different viewpoints, and that this is a good thing, to approach 'truth' from such different vantage points.

Thanks.

HiJolly

[skalenfehl]

I'm surprised that if the Supreme Intelligence wants us to find his truth that he would use faith, rather than humble acceptance of facts, as the way. Faith and confirmation bias makes one susceptible to unfounded claims.

Not with God. The Israelites, liberated by Moses from Egypt witnessed many facts and still hardened their hearts. The Jews, even the leaders of the Jews witnessed facts with their own eyes and still denied Jesus Christ, despite those marvelous and miraculous facts. Laman and Lemuel along with many others in the Book of Mormon witnessed countless facts and they still hardened their hearts and rejected the gospel!!

How many countless of millions in history witnessed facts and miracles and even had the privilege of being in Christ's presence and STILL rejected Him? You see, facts only convince, not convert. This is why Christ told the Nephites to do a couple things. The hard hearted will reject Christ, with or without a witness, even if it is with their own eyes. This is why His perfect system of having the Holy Ghost testify to the penitent, the meek, the contrite works and would only work to the unbelieving to their condemnation. Think about it.

Edited April 25, 2012 by skalenfehl
added emphasis

[cryophil]

In your thread I asked you two, no three questions:

1. What did Christ tell the Nephites to do when they couldn't understand what He was expounding to them? (The Son of God was IN THEIR PRESENCE and they still couldn't understand what he was trying to teach them.

2. What else did Christ admonish them to do? Hint: He told them to search ______.

3. Have you read the Book of Mormon completely through at least once?

You say that no one really seems to have a clear answer for that process, but it's there in front of you. I laid it out clearly above. It is simple, though not necessarily easy and countless prophets have told you how they did it and how you can do it. Christ already taught us HOW to experiment on His words, if you MUST use some empirical means.

I believe what you're getting at is that he told them to search the scriptures (Isaiah in particular). He told them to find the prophesies about him and these events.

However, since 3 Ne is written after Isaiah, we cannot know if this isn't just begging the question/using a conclusion in the answer.

Yes, I've read the BoM several times.

As for the experimental process, the trouble I see is that it has several logical fallacies. First, it requires you to have belief before you test. This makes one very susceptible to confirmation bias. It uses an appeal to emotional experience and it puts the burden of proof on the questioner, because if you can't get the right answer, then you are the problem. You're not humble enough. You're not sincere. You're not trying/praying/fasting enough.

Edited April 25, 2012 by cryophil

[cryophil]

But confirmation bias is not evil or bad. It simply *is*. Yet you attempt to influence our perception of it by use of negative verbiage.

Yes, it's bad. It leads to results which may have no basis in fact. If science operated this way, it would never have produced the abundance of technology. Likewise, if I use confirmation bias to learn truth of morality and God, it will not lead to an abundance of blessings.

[skalenfehl]

Perfect! Yes, he commanded them to search Isaiah. Isaiah is such a key prophet since the days of Adam, so much so that Nephi, after sharing with us his journey, expounded on Isaiah and even taught his people and us, how to understand Isaiah. He is such a key prophet that Jesust Christ, the Son of God commanded them to search Isaiah. Isaiah truly testified of Jesus Christ's coming, His ministry, His purpose and his Second Coming, along with the critical importance of the "marvelous work and a wonder" to usher in the gathering of Israel.

The first thing Christ told the Nephites was to go home and pray unto the Father for an understanding of His words because they were weak. Did he insult them? No. He was telling them that they still hadn't accepted His gifts: the scriptures. The scriptures are accounts and witnesses of Jesus Christ.

You are on the right path. But like I said in my previous post, knowing isn't necessarily believing, even if you see with your own eyes. Wicked men walked with Christ and they still turned away. Jesus Christ wants you not only to believe Him but also to follow Him. Without conviction, which begins with a trial of your faith, you will never set foot on His path.

[HiJolly]

Yes, it's bad. It leads to results which may have no basis in fact. If science operated this way, it would never have produced the abundance of technology. Likewise, if I use confirmation bias to learn truth of morality and God, it will not lead to an abundance of blessings.

But your chart includes evaluation. Yet you leave it out. That's bad methodology.

It's simply not the way you say it is.

HiJolly

[Guest]

How do you verify the truthfulness or goodness of anything without taking the word of those who know about it and have proven it for themselves, and ultimately trying it out yourself?

[HiJolly]

How do you verify the truthfulness or goodness of anything without taking the word of those who know about it and have proven it for themselves, and ultimately trying it out yourself?

As I interpret what cryophil has said, he/she has tried them out. And got mixed/confusing/negative results.

HiJolly

[cryophil]

But your chart includes evaluation. Yet you leave it out. That's bad methodology.

It's simply not the way you say it is.

I left out evaluation? When/where?

How do you verify the truthfulness or goodness of anything without taking the word of those who know about it and have proven it for themselves, and ultimately trying it out yourself?

That's not the issue. The issue is if you believe with faith unwavering, without skepticism, then you're prone to confirmation bias.

The other issue is, what is the indicator that yields evidence that the Book of Mormon/LDS church is true? We're told through the promptings of the Holy Ghost. Then I asked what is that? How will I know?

This was in the other thread I started...

[Guest]

If I give you my reasons for knowing, though, you call it confirmation bias. Nevertheless, here are my best answers:

Moroni 7:16

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.

Doctrine and Covenants 6:23

23 Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?

Doctrine and Covenants 9:9

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

Matthew 7: 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

edited to add the most important to me:

Alma 32:27

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Eowyn

[Guest]

For what it's worth, I felt a "burning in my bosom" and the confirmation of the truth of these scriptures, even as I posted them. My faith in the words has waxed and waned, but I do feel of their truth and I am thankful for that. The last one, especially. I've had to work with that desire only, as in the last one I posted, and I know that with time and patience and prayer, that desire has worked in me to increase my faith. I don't know if you're looking for hard and fast evidence, or what, but I value the aspects of my testimony that I've had to work harder for more, I think.

[skalenfehl]

I will add my witness to Eowyn's. When your heart is right and the Lord sees fit to send you that confirming witness, you will feel that unmistakable burning in the bosom. I have felt it in degrees in my life. Sometimes, it's just a tangible "burning" that envelopes my being, but it has also been a tangible fire that seems to consume the entire room for a period of time. You will know it when you receive it. Aside from this it feels like an overwhelming sensation of love, as if you are literally embraced by the Savior. Just know that until then, this is the trial of your faith and conversion, not just convincing. Most anyone can be convinced. There is a difference.

[HiJolly]

I left out evaluation? When/where?

right here:

Originally Posted by cryophil

Yes, it's bad. It leads to results which may have no basis in fact. If science operated this way, it would never have produced the abundance of technology. Likewise, if I use confirmation bias to learn truth of morality and God, it will not lead to an abundance of blessings.

That's not the issue. The issue is if you believe with faith unwavering, without skepticism, then you're prone to confirmation bias.

I believed that way before my mind matured. Now, I never think/believe that way. I have a love/hate relationship with doubt.

HJ

[cryophil]

If only it were about having a witness where you feel burning in your chest, elation, heart is right, peace and comfort and...

Here's a witness from Muslim women, testifying of Allah.

Women Embracing Islam: Gender And Conversion in the West - Karin Van Nieuwkerk - Google Books

“Many women described a feeling of euphoria after they committed to following Allah . . . . One woman described a feeling of peace; she said: ‘It is like you are born again and you can start all over again, free from sin.’”

Another:

How can you be sure of what happens after death if.... (beliefs, religion) - Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Atheism, God, Universe, Science, Spirituality, Faith, Evidence - Page 7 - City-Data Forum

" While on my journey, I was asking God what the truth was. I mean I was angry and I truely wanted to know. After a few weeks, I stumbled onto a web site that talked about the very things I was curious about. It answered my questions in a way that I had not heard of before. I read everything on the web site and I even tried the experiment of asking God for His love, His Divine Love. After about 6 weeks, I felt a burning in my chest and a sensation that was unlike anything I had ever felt. It was pure happiness and peace. I knew then that God had sent His love to me." (post by Reverend1111)

The above is about New Age.

And a surprising one:

"As I sat and gazed upon the surrounding hills gently sloping to an inland sea, a feeling of peace came over me. It soon grew to a blissful stillness that silenced my thoughts. In an instant, the sense of being a separate self—an “I” or a “me”—vanished. . . . The experience lasted just a few moments..."

(Atheist Sam Harris)

On Faith Panelists Blog: Selfless Consciousness Without Faith - Sam Harris

So which God, which gospel, which witness is correct?

[Guest]

I believe they're all the same God, so they are all correct. As for the athiest's experience, I believe we can all commune with nature and feel peace. God created it, after all. The others received a witness of God's existence, maybe under a different name, but our Heavenly Father nonetheless. I've received that same witness of Him, and of the divinity of Christ, and of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

[cryophil]

I believe they're all the same God, so they are all correct. As for the athiest's experience, I believe we can all commune with nature and feel peace. God created it, after all. The others received a witness of God's existence, maybe under a different name, but our Heavenly Father nonetheless. I've received that same witness of Him, and of the divinity of Christ, and of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

So the Holy Ghost witnesses of polytheistic and other doctrines contrary to LDS belief?

If many paths lead to a witness and to the same God, all correct, then why do we LDS try so hard to convert abroad? Why does it matter if one is a mormon at all?

Have all/any of you sincerely read and prayed about the Qu'Ran? The bhagavad gita? Did you not receive the same witness that the Muslims and Hindus receive as great peace, elation in your chest and elevation of mind? Because I have tested them. Just like I did for the Book of Mormon. And I got the answer just the same. Why? They can't all be true to the same level.

Edited April 25, 2012 by cryophil

[HiJolly]

If only it were about having a witness where you feel burning in your chest, elation, heart is right, peace and comfort and...

Here's a witness from Muslim women, testifying of Allah.

Women Embracing Islam: Gender And Conversion in the West - Karin Van Nieuwkerk - Google Books

“Many women described a feeling of euphoria after they committed to following Allah . . . . One woman described a feeling of peace; she said: ‘It is like you are born again and you can start all over again, free from sin.’”

Another:

How can you be sure of what happens after death if.... (beliefs, religion) - Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Atheism, God, Universe, Science, Spirituality, Faith, Evidence - Page 7 - City-Data Forum

" While on my journey, I was asking God what the truth was. I mean I was angry and I truely wanted to know. After a few weeks, I stumbled onto a web site that talked about the very things I was curious about. It answered my questions in a way that I had not heard of before. I read everything on the web site and I even tried the experiment of asking God for His love, His Divine Love. After about 6 weeks, I felt a burning in my chest and a sensation that was unlike anything I had ever felt. It was pure happiness and peace. I knew then that God had sent His love to me." (post by Reverend1111)

The above is about New Age.

And a surprising one:

"As I sat and gazed upon the surrounding hills gently sloping to an inland sea, a feeling of peace came over me. It soon grew to a blissful stillness that silenced my thoughts. In an instant, the sense of being a separate self—an “I” or a “me”—vanished. . . . The experience lasted just a few moments..."

(Atheist Sam Harris)

On Faith Panelists Blog: Selfless Consciousness Without Faith - Sam Harris

So which God, which gospel, which witness is correct?

All of them, of course.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

So the Holy Ghost witnesses of polytheistic and other doctrines contrary to LDS belief?

If many paths lead to a witness and to the same God, all correct, then why do we LDS try so hard to convert abroad? Why does it matter if one is a mormon at all?

Already answered you, I did.

HiJolly

[Guest]

Who said anything about polytheism? What I was driving at is that I believe that God and Allah are the same being, called by different names in different places. He goes by many names. We are all His children, and of course he would manifest His existence and love to any of His children who will receive it. That doesn't mean that others have all of the truth. I didn't see where any of them asked whether they belonged to the correct faith or what that was, or whether the Book of Mormon was His word or the LDS Church was His true church. It seems to me they were just seeking for God and His peace, however they were open to it. Who is using confirmation bias now?