eternal elements and creation

[Finrock]

Good afternoon cryophil!

Moses 3:8 Adam is first man--dispelled overwhelmingly by science

2 Ne 2:22 all things were kept from death until fall -- again dispelled

D&C 77:6 earth's temporal (mortal) age is a few thousand years -- dispellled

Alma 10:3 Lehi's family descends from Israel/manasseh -- dispelled by DNA anthropology

3 Nephi ch 8-10 destruction of dozens of cities in a few short days -- dismantled by archaeology

4 Nephi utopian society of christians spread across the land of America and live in peace for 200 years -- archaeology, anthropology, and more demolished

Abraham 3:3 & Fac 2,Fig 5 Our sun is governed by and receives its light from Kolob -- demolished by astronomy as a principle

Egyptian (regular and reformed) translations by Joseph Smith -- smashed by linguists

D&C 89 alcohol & coffee bad -- demolished by science, when used in moderation

You do realize that just because you are a physicist and just because you say that science has "dispelled" something doesn't make it so? Not only that, many of your arguments are framed in a way that doesn't represent the actual view of Latter-day Saints or the arguments represent a personal interpretation of a belief. In other words, your arguments are using strawman arguments and then when you "smash" the strawman, you parade around the forums as if you've demonstrated your point! Proof by assertion, strawman arguments, and an appeal to authority are fallacious forms of reasoning. All of those points are a part of very common anti-Mormon literature and they have been addressed by many people, ad nauseum, across the world and you can find answers to your supposed "dispelled" proofs by doing a little studying and by listening to the folks who are addressing you here.

It is fun to have a discussion and to even question things about our religion but it should be done with an eye of faith AND with real intent. On the other hand, when you see a person who repeatedly employs fallacious forms of reasoning in their arguments then you are forced to question whether that person is approaching the questions with faith and with real intent or are they motivated by other purposes. When this happens the discussion loses its appeal because reasoning with someone who is being intentionally irrational is a waste of time, for everyone involved.

I suspect that you aren't interested in knowing the truth, or even having questions answered. I suspect that you are more interested in justifying your life decision to abandon faith and follow the arm of flesh.

Regards,

Finrock

[rameumptom]

Before the Big Bang, everything existed. Big Bang does not mean creatio ex nihilo (creation from nothing), but creation from everything. It all existed. It cannot be destroyed, only transformed. And that is exactly what we see with the Big Bang. So, Joseph Smith was exactly right.

[rameumptom]

Conjecture is not the same thing as hypothesis.

What you raised was that the answer to my question lies in spirit matter that belongs to a realm that we cannot measure. That's conjecture and is not helpful because it cannot be used for experimentation. If you cannot observe it under controlled or at least repeatable/verifiable conditions, and you cannot find a way to negate the "conjecture" then it cannot serve as a hypothesis. So as such, it doesn't help the discussion.

But this applies to anything related to a singularity (such as the "time" prior to the Big Bang). We cannot measure it in any way, so we really cannot know what was happening. We cannot do an experiment to show whether matter existed or did not exist prior to the Big Bang.

So, it is conjecture.

As it is, most of the Big Bang theorists I've studied believe that it wasn't an ex nihilo creation, but a creation from everything. All matter and energy existed in one point. The key is: it existed.

[Traveler]

But this applies to anything related to a singularity (such as the "time" prior to the Big Bang). We cannot measure it in any way, so we really cannot know what was happening. We cannot do an experiment to show whether matter existed or did not exist prior to the Big Bang.

So, it is conjecture.

As it is, most of the Big Bang theorists I've studied believe that it wasn't an ex nihilo creation, but a creation from everything. All matter and energy existed in one point. The key is: it existed.

The problem is how "nothing" is defined or how "nothing" is explained. For example if everything is removed from a jar - do it contain "nothing"? would we say dimensional space is nothing? Or if "nothing" is detected or can be measured can we say "nothing" exist?

In the course of science can we say that love or justice exist? or are such concepts conjecture and efforts at such things unworthy of hypothesis? Kind of a backward approach to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Which presents another problem - if we measure one principle of a quantum particle do the other (which is not unmeasurable) become nothing and no longer exists?

One of the classic problems of science is defining what we are measuring. A very resent example is Dark Matter and Dark Energy. Are we measuring the actual existence of something that actually exist "within" our universe or are we detecting a symptom of something outside our universe (such as another dimension) that has created such an effect.

Why is the expansion of our universe accelerating? 20 years ago we had no idea this was even happening. At the rate our universe's expansion is accelerating; our universe is theorized to be mostly made up of this stuff we call "Dark Energy" - but other than the accelerated expansion this most plentiful stuff is undetectable; unlike Dark Matter that at least creates gravitational lensing. But an even greater problem is - as old as our universe is - why is the expansion still accelerating? In fact, how can we even assume the universe is isotropic? or that any calculation of age is accurate? Since all hypothesis of age are based on our universe coming from a single point and expanding at a ever decelerating rate following a Big Bang?

The Traveler

[rameumptom]

Traveler, here's another thought. If the Big Bang theory is correct, then was Dark Energy also a part of the initial Big Bang, or was it a separate entity already present, just not detected? If we cannot directly measure dark energy, how do we know if it has always been causing the expansion of the Big Bang, or if it just took over later? Perhaps it emerged along the way from another dimension, etc?

[Traveler]

Traveler, here's another thought. If the Big Bang theory is correct, then was Dark Energy also a part of the initial Big Bang, or was it a separate entity already present, just not detected? If we cannot directly measure dark energy, how do we know if it has always been causing the expansion of the Big Bang, or if it just took over later? Perhaps it emerged along the way from another dimension, etc?

Ram,

I was reading over your post (more than once) because something - a feeling - hard to explain kept driving me to think about it. Then it hit me like a ton of bricks. One of the great problems and criticisms of the Big Bang is that there is too much stuff that resulted - our universe is too big. All calculations concerning a Big Bang would cause it to go off much sooner than it did. So in essence - what contained the Big Bang so it could occur? Possible answer - Dark Energy!

Thanks for your post - I am going to have to investigate this idea for a while.

The Traveler

[rameumptom]

Ram,

I was reading over your post (more than once) because something - a feeling - hard to explain kept driving me to think about it. Then it hit me like a ton of bricks. One of the great problems and criticisms of the Big Bang is that there is too much stuff that resulted - our universe is too big. All calculations concerning a Big Bang would cause it to go off much sooner than it did. So in essence - what contained the Big Bang so it could occur? Possible answer - Dark Energy!

Thanks for your post - I am going to have to investigate this idea for a while.

The Traveler

Well, when you find the solution and they look to present you with a Nobel Prize in Science, make sure I'm in there too!

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