Knowing, Testimony, and Ambiguity

[Misshalfway]

Thinking a lot about knowing (like the way we all talk about knowing truth) and the inherent ambiguity that accompanies the Telestial/veiled state of things down here on earth. To me it feels like humility combining with the knowing and not knowing parts.

What are your thoughts? How do you grapple with it? Do you ever think we are afraid of not knowing? Like being afraid of doubt? I mean, is doubting part of the process of getting to the knowing, or a stumbling block/character flaw sort of deal?

And....just for fun I'll quote a line from the musical "Wicked" that makes me laugh and illustrates a sister point. In the song "Wonderful", the Wizard sings.... "there are precious few at ease with moral ambiguities, and so we act as though they don't exist!" :)

Edited May 28, 2012 by Misshalfway

[bytor2112]

Seems like I "know" the most when I am the most engaged in seeking after Spiritual things and doubt occurs when I am not. When I doubt...or maybe question what I believe I "know".....I usually can trace the source of my doubts or questions to having "wandered"...as I am prone to do.

[HiJolly]

Certainty (or, in LDS terminology, testimony) is a result of the subconscious mental processes underlying our rational, conscious thought. And ambiguity?

"Living with ambiguity is a form of intellectual honesty, of

humility. It is only when we admit that we don't know that we

are receptive to what lessons may be taught. In some strange

way, it also brings an inner peace since we are no longer

fighting reality to maintain our inner fantasies on how things

should be. While I am characterizing it as an intellectual

process, it also has spiritual implications, since only an open

mind is capable of hearing God."

-- Andy Piereder

HJ

[Iggy]

First of all, Welcome Back:bouncingclap:- missed you a lot, am so happy you are back posting!

Now to your questions. I have a testimony of the rightness of the Gospel. I have a testimony of the aid, comfort and direction from the Holy Ghost. Because of these testimonies, I walk with faith in believing in Jesus Christ.

I doubt lots of things, ideas, etc.,etc. When I am at a crossroads in which path to take regarding my spirituality, I turn to Jesus and to the Holy Ghost. When I have a clarity of thought, clarity of purpose then I know from past experience this is the path that Father says is okay to follow.

Afraid of not knowing. Yes, we all are afraid of not knowing. Pick nearly any subject and at first we will be afraid of not knowing. Experience teaches us to either fear or not fear.

I was fearful of my first husband. He said he would kill me and hurt my family if I displeased him, or if I left him. For 20 years I believed him. AFTER I came back to Church, learning the principles of the Gospel AND the Doctrines of the Gospel and the experiences where I was learning my testimonies and trusting the Holy Ghost in how He was guiding me, and comforting me, I came to the realization that 1st Husband would not make good his threats.

So with faith in Father I left husband. I did not hide, or cower or go to great pains to avoid him. All of his threats were empty hot air.

It was with a great leap of faith that I married husband #2. The Holy Ghost had witnessed to me that marrying Mr Iggy was T H E R I G H T move. I only knew Mr Iggy for 13 days. We married, I moved from Oregon to Arizona and not once have I ever regretted it. I thank Father daily for bringing Mr Iggy and myself together!

I look at Mr Iggy now, as he is watching a Netflix program and my heart does a flip flop. I love this man, and I am Oh So Thankful we are together for eternity.

[HiJolly]

Certainty (or, in LDS terminology, testimony) is a result of the subconscious mental processes underlying our rational, conscious thought.

Misshalfway,

I need to add more to my comment. As it stands, it's just a little stark and uninviting. So.

The subconscious mind is a gatekeeper of the soul; it is the underlying heart. It is also the connection point with the mind or spirit of God. So if we have been taught to live the commandments, that sets an expectation within the subconscious mind that we should so live our lives. Then in reality we live our lives, and if that living is in complete agreement with our values, then the key turns in the lock and we have Faith.

This Faith gives us power - real, heavenly power. The heavens are opened, revelations come to us, visions follow, and the whole shooting match unfolds, just as we are taught.

Even if we are unable to live all the commandments, there is no need for despair, for our subconscious mind also knows about repentance. We are baptized, and we are 'pure'. We take the sacrament, and the gatekeeper within us, in conjunction with the Holy Spirit, wipes the slate clean. So then we are indeed able to again turn the key.

If we find ourselves unable to obey and repent then we are stuck. The key no longer turns, and we are estranged from God and internally our mind is conflicted. This is a dark path of sadness, bad dreams and despair. There are two ways out.

First is to repent and repent again and struggle and hope and finally find our way to hope and life through forgiveness, repentance and the redemption of Christ.

Second is to re-set our subconscious expectation of what is 'right' or 'good'. This path I cannot recommend. It is difficult and requires much more than simply thinking your way through. And the results are usually not amenable to faith in Christ. So I'll stop talking about it.

Anyway. The interplay of the mind (conscious and subconscious) and the holy spirit is remarkable and beautiful to me. The Gospel makes it all redemptive and full of light.

HiJolly

[Traveler]

Thinking a lot about knowing (like the way we all talk about knowing truth) and the inherent ambiguity that accompanies the Telestial/veiled state of things down here on earth. To me it feels like humility combining with the knowing and not knowing parts.

What are your thoughts? How do you grapple with it? Do you ever think we are afraid of not knowing? Like being afraid of doubt? I mean, is doubting part of the process of getting to the knowing, or a stumbling block/character flaw sort of deal?

And....just for fun I'll quote a line from the musical "Wicked" that makes me laugh and illustrates a sister point. In the song "Wonderful", the Wizard sings.... "there are precious few at ease with moral ambiguities, and so we act as though they don't exist!" :)

Very early on in my experiences as a scientist (student) I was working on a lab experiment with another student name Tracy Hall. We were working on the Millikan oil drop experiment. Tracy Hall’s father (also named Tracy Hall) was the graduate assistant to Robert Millikan involved in first “successful performance of this experiment. We were unable to produce the same numbers at the accuracy that produced the “accepted results”. I was having some “doubts” about the “accepted results”. Tracy suggested we talk to his dad – which we did.

I came away from this whole thing with serious doubts about science – in particular particle physics and especially electrons. It was my first introduction into the weirdness of quantum mechanics and that electrons really do not live up to what we think they are.

I have spent much of my life believing that it is impossible in this life to really know much of anything. Rather I was convinced that having faith and believing (but always seeking more understanding) was a much more accurate and reliable approach to reality. I use to roll my eyes at the “memorized phrases” that started out with “I know that ---“and ended with things like “the Church is True”, “the Gospel is True”, Joseph Smith was a Prophet” and so on – thinking that in general people are not really aware of much and jump to conclusions a lot without much research or idea about what they are really talking about. And that what they really meant to say should have been things like “They strongly believe” or “Have a lot of faith” but for knowing – they are way over their head and have not even scratched the surface of reality.

As I continued in my personal quest for “Truth” I became increasingly more skeptical of knowing the ever elusive truths. However, like Iggy, being married to a devoted spouse and having a family began to influence me in ways I did not know or think possible. I came to the conclusion that one thing I did know for sure was that I loved my wife and children. But even more fascinating to me as a scientist – was that I could not measure nor explain precisely why. The specifics were as elusive as the dad-gum electrons. I experienced the exact same epiphany with my understanding of many things in the gospel, such as the mission and calling Jesus to be our “Christ” our “Redeemer” and our “G-d” and with the Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints.

The things that are knowable – that can be experienced without doubt or some degree of not quite knowing are not the things that can be measured, quantified, accurately demonstrated and proven beyond question. They are the things we come to know by the very center of our being and thus are spiritually discerned and to the skeptic – are unexplainable the only hope is that we experience truth. Not as an experiment but with commitment, beginning with faith and hope (which is an answer to another thread – why Faith the first principle of truth).

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Misshalfway,

I need to add more to my comment. As it stands, it's just a little stark and uninviting. So.

The subconscious mind is a gatekeeper of the soul; it is the underlying heart. It is also the connection point with the mind or spirit of God. So if we have been taught to live the commandments, that sets an expectation within the subconscious mind that we should so live our lives. Then in reality we live our lives, and if that living is in complete agreement with our values, then the key turns in the lock and we have Faith.

This Faith gives us power - real, heavenly power. The heavens are opened, revelations come to us, visions follow, and the whole shooting match unfolds, just as we are taught.

Even if we are unable to live all the commandments, there is no need for despair, for our subconscious mind also knows about repentance. We are baptized, and we are 'pure'. We take the sacrament, and the gatekeeper within us, in conjunction with the Holy Spirit, wipes the slate clean. So then we are indeed able to again turn the key.

If we find ourselves unable to obey and repent then we are stuck. The key no longer turns, and we are estranged from God and internally our mind is conflicted. This is a dark path of sadness, bad dreams and despair. There are two ways out.

First is to repent and repent again and struggle and hope and finally find our way to hope and life through forgiveness, repentance and the redemption of Christ.

Second is to re-set our subconscious expectation of what is 'right' or 'good'. This path I cannot recommend. It is difficult and requires much more than simply thinking your way through. And the results are usually not amenable to faith in Christ. So I'll stop talking about it.

Anyway. The interplay of the mind (conscious and subconscious) and the holy spirit is remarkable and beautiful to me. The Gospel makes it all redemptive and full of light.

HiJolly

I would like to know where you got this information. As a neuroscientist and LDS I have looked all over for this type of information and I can't find it anywhere. I think your description of the subconscious mind as the gatekeeper of the soul is not correct. The subconscious contains many of the primitive responses that we would otherwise call the 'natural man'. The subconscious contains drives from the hypothalamus including hunger, thirst, anger, sexual drives, jealousy, greed, survival instincts, etc. I think it is best to separate it in terms of body and spirit, the dual being nature of self in this existence. The body influences include both conscience and subconscious circuitry in the brain. How our spirit influences those two aspects of the brain's anatomy is unknown and nowhere to be found in our gospel.

If it is spoken of, it certainly is spoken in metaphoric terms and should not be taken so literal as to say the actual physical body subconscious anymore than saying that our cardiac muscle can have desires.

It is not possible to "reset" the subconscious as you suggest. By definition, the subconscious is beneath our realization, beneath our consciousness. There is no ability to even recognize it, let alone change it as far as modern medical science is concerned. What we can change, though, is the amount of influence the spirit has over the body. Again, I think this is why it is best to describe these forces at play as those between the body and the spirit, not conscience and subconscious. The consciousness and subconscious are both pertaining to the body and not the spirit.

[HiJolly]

I would like to know where you got this information.

I'll bet. You can find it the same way I did. Research. Seek. Pray.

As a neuroscientist and LDS I have looked all over for this type of information and I can't find it anywhere.

ok.

I think your description of the subconscious mind as the gatekeeper of the soul is not correct.

And I'm OK with you thinking that.

The subconscious contains many of the primitive responses that we would otherwise call the 'natural man'. The subconscious contains drives from the hypothalamus including hunger, thirst, anger, sexual drives, jealousy, greed, survival instincts, etc. I think it is best to separate it in terms of body and spirit, the dual being nature of self in this existence. The body influences include both conscience and subconscious circuitry in the brain. How our spirit influences those two aspects of the brain's anatomy is unknown and nowhere to be found in our gospel.

The subconscious also contains the 'shadow', which I think you're basically describing, though I think it's a bit more ... ah ... 'focused' ... than the "natural man" is.

Unknown to most, yes. Certainly unknown to materialistic science.

If it is spoken of, it certainly is spoken in metaphoric terms and should not be taken so literal as to say the actual physical body subconscious anymore than saying that our cardiac muscle can have desires.

What should and should not be said is a subjective judgement based on many factors, including the shared experience and knowledge of the specific interlocutors.

I will admit that my comments probably will have few who will understand or resonate with them. Still, sometimes I am surprised.

It is not possible to "reset" the subconscious as you suggest.

On what basis do you make this claim? For me, it is demonstrably false. But then perhaps you're speaking of a superset of the unconscious whereas I'm speaking of a specific subset thereof. BTW, do you have a concise definition of the limbic system? Just curious.

By definition, the subconscious is beneath our realization, beneath our consciousness.

Generally, this is true. Not always, though. Remember dreams?

There is no ability to even recognize it, let alone change it as far as modern medical science is concerned. What we can change, though, is the amount of influence the spirit has over the body. Again, I think this is why it is best to describe these forces at play as those between the body and the spirit, not conscience and subconscious. The consciousness and subconscious are both pertaining to the body and not the spirit.

Also false. Although I do agree that the conscious mind can influence and even alter the subconscious mind, and we do it every day whether we realize it or not. Thus, yes, the spirit does have influence over the body.

The spirit influencing the conscious mind is happening all the time. This is much of what the Holy Ghost does.

HiJolly

Edited May 29, 2012 by HiJolly
clarity

[Seminarysnoozer]

I'll bet. You can find it the same way I did. Research. Seek. Pray.

ok.

And I'm OK with you thinking that.

The subconscious also contains the 'shadow', which I think you're basically describing, though I think it's a bit more ... ah ... 'focused' ... than the "natural man" is.

Unknown to most, yes. Certainly unknown to materialistic science.

What should and should not be said is a subjective judgement based on many factors, including the shared experience and knowledge of the specific interlocutors.

I will admit that my comments probably will have few who will understand or resonate with them. Still, sometimes I am surprised.

On what basis do you make this claim? For me, it is demonstrably false. But then perhaps you're speaking of a superset of the unconscious whereas I'm speaking of a specific subset thereof. BTW, do you have a concise definition of the limbic system? Just curious.

Generally, this is true. Not always, though. Remember dreams?

Also false. Although I do agree that the conscious mind can influence and even alter the subconscious mind, and we do it every day whether we realize it or not. Thus, yes, the spirit does have influence over the body.

The spirit influencing the conscious mind is happening all the time. This is much of what the Holy Ghost does.

HiJolly

Sorry to stir this up. I have a problem with the idea that the subconscious (and I admit this is not a very well defined term even in scientific works) somehow represents our true self. I think that idea is false. That is not where our testimony comes from or our basic knowledge. Out true testimony comes from our spirit self. To know something spiritually is not the same as saying it is in my subconscious, at all! Those two things are completely different things and not tied into each other any more than the spirit ties into the consciousness. If anything, I would say that the spirit deals less with the subconscious than it does with consciousness.

To remember a dream one has to have maintained some amount of consciousness while the active memory is holding onto what happened while unconscious. The active memory interpretation of the memory is a process that happens while conscious. So, what people are calling a "dream" is actually the interpretation of such ideas that occur while conscious. ... you are right, we already went over this.

How do you know that things like "shared experience" is not a spirit to spirit communication and feeling as opposed to somehow channeled through the subconscious? Things like "shared experience" does not prove any involvement of the subconscious.

I have made the claim about "reset"ing the subconscious because you can't reset something that wasn't set in the first place. If we could reset the subconscious or the conscious for that matter we would be God. And even then, in this life, the wiping clean is more on a spiritual level, it was not intended to be overcome in this life. Paul lived with the thorn in the flesh.

Our subconscious tendencies, our primitive, reflexive, natural behaviors and drives ("the natural man") was given us by being born into a mortal corrupted body. It learns things in error, reinforcements based in pleasure, avoiding pain, hunger, thirst, pride driven things, sexual gratification etc. That is how the system is set up, to pay attention to worldly matters and to learn from them and change the thought process based in those responses. If one wants to "reset" that system, they are going to have to wait until a new body is available. One that does not care so much about worldly concerns. For now, we have to deal with the subconscious drives as they present themselves and cannot really "reset" them to do anything more than they were intended to do until death.

[BenRaines]

Doctrine and Covenants 46 is where I learned that to some it is given to know. To others to believe on those who know.

No requirement that I know of for all to know.

Ben Raines

[HiJolly]

Sorry to stir this up. I have a problem with the idea that the subconscious (and I admit this is not a very well defined term even in scientific works) somehow represents our true self. I think that idea is false. That is not where our testimony comes from or our basic knowledge. Out true testimony comes from our spirit self. To know something spiritually is not the same as saying it is in my subconscious, at all! Those two things are completely different things and not tied into each other any more than the spirit ties into the consciousness. If anything, I would say that the spirit deals less with the subconscious than it does with consciousness.

Ok. I agree that the subconscious mind is not the "true self". Or, at least, not all of it. I think the "true self" is much more complicated and not completely subject to scientific inquiry. OTOH, I also think that is has been scientifically proven that the feeling of certainty is a function of the subconscious mind. See Robert Burton's "On Being Certain: Believing You Are Right Even When You're Not" Science would say there's no need for a "Ghost in the Machine". I don't know if there's a *need* per se, but it's in there, of that I'm certain.

How do you know that things like "shared experience" is not a spirit to spirit communication and feeling as opposed to somehow channeled through the subconscious? Things like "shared experience" does not prove any involvement of the subconscious.

I don't. Hmmm. Maybe so. I'm not making any claims along those lines. Revelation, inspiration, visions and pure intelligence and more, all happen. I would not limit *how* these things happen to the subconscious mind alone, but I know of myself that the subconscious mind does play a role. I also believe that the right hemisphere of the brain is very much involved in these things.

I have made the claim about "reset"ing the subconscious because you can't reset something that wasn't set in the first place. If we could reset the subconscious or the conscious for that matter we would be God. And even then, in this life, the wiping clean is more on a spiritual level, it was not intended to be overcome in this life. Paul lived with the thorn in the flesh.

Hmmm... I'm not sure really where you are going with all that. But what is in our subconscious mind is certainly formed by lived experience for the most part, with influences from the conscious thought processes as well as maybe other things. Not sure I'd care to clarify or break it all down, I'm pretty sure I cannot do so at this point. With any confidence, anyways.

What I mean by 'reset' is that our standards, our 'feelings' of what is right and wrong, have a root or essence in our subconscious thought. It is taught to us (or simply absorbed) over time, from our earliest experiences, according to scientific testing. And this is what can be changed within us. The power of faith NOT in Christ, but in other less righteous 'persons' reveals this to be so. The Light of Christ is not the only influence out there, unfortunately. Other influences might not be as powerful but they do exist.

Our subconscious tendencies, our primitive, reflexive, natural behaviors and drives ("the natural man") was given us by being born into a mortal corrupted body. It learns things in error, reinforcements based in pleasure, avoiding pain, hunger, thirst, pride driven things, sexual gratification etc. That is how the system is set up, to pay attention to worldly matters and to learn from them and change the thought process based in those responses. If one wants to "reset" that system, they are going to have to wait until a new body is available. One that does not care so much about worldly concerns. For now, we have to deal with the subconscious drives as they present themselves and cannot really "reset" them to do anything more than they were intended to do until death.

We are talking past each other. What you say is true to a point, but you are not considering the whole picture of what is involved with our subconscious minds. It is indeed important to consider the 'animal' side of our biology, but that's only a start.

HiJolly

Edited May 29, 2012 by HiJolly
Dang emoticon didn't work!

[Seminarysnoozer]

Ok. I agree that the subconscious mind is not the "true self". Or, at least, not all of it. I think the "true self" is much more complicated and not completely subject to scientific inquiry. OTOH, I also think that is has been scientifically proven that the feeling of certainty is a function of the subconscious mind. See Robert Burton's "On Being Certain: Believing You Are Right Even When You're Not" Science would say there's no need for a "Ghost in the Machine". I don't know if there's a *need* per se, but it's in there, of that I'm certain.

I don't. Hmmm. Maybe so. I'm not making any claims along those lines. Revelation, inspiration, visions and pure intelligence and more, all happen. I would not limit *how* these things happen to the subconscious mind alone, but I know of myself that the subconscious mind does play a role. I also believe that the right hemisphere of the brain is very much involved in these things.

Hmmm... I'm not sure really where you are going with all that. But what is in our subconscious mind is certainly formed by lived experience for the most part, with influences from the conscious thought processes as well as maybe other things. Not sure I'd care to clarify or break it all down, I'm pretty sure I cannot do so at this point. With any confidence, anyways.

What I mean by 'reset' is that our standards, our 'feelings' of what is right and wrong, have a root or essence in our subconscious thought. It is taught to us (or simply absorbed) over time, from our earliest experiences, according to scientific testing. And this is what can be changed within us. The power of faith NOT in Christ, but in other less righteous 'persons' reveals this to be so. The Light of Christ is not the only influence out there, unfortunately. Other influences might not be as powerful but they do exist.

We are talking past each other. What you say is true to a point, but you are not considering the whole picture of what is involved with our subconscious minds. It is indeed important to consider the 'animal' side of our biology, but that's only a start.

HiJolly

Thanks for engaging with me, I always enjoy your comments.

I agree, maybe we are talking past each other because it is mostly semantics that we are disagreeing with. Where the spirit ends and the body begins can be very difficult to define. I think the reason I responded to your post is the first statement of "Certainty (or, in LDS terminology, testimony) is a result of the subconscious mental processes underlying our rational, conscious thought. "

In that statement you left out spirit. How does our spiritual self and spiritual knowledge fit into this. I didn't see that you left any room for the spirit in your description of where the testimony comes from. Maybe you assumed the idea that the subconscious is where the spirit influences or at least reflects the spiritual influence is common knowledge but I don't think that is true. Then I suggested that the mind in both the subconscious and conscious parts can be described as a separate entity from spiritual processes (not that they don't interact - that wasn't what I was trying to say) but that they are separately generating thought patterns, spirit and body (body including subconscious paths and conscious). I think the better division that needs to come together in terms of testimony or knowledge is between the spirit and body, not between the subconscious (body) and conscious (body).

If the subconscious part of the brain, for example, says I need food; "I'm hungry" and the conscious part of the brain says "You can get more money by stealing it than earning it to get food" then they are in agreement. The subconscious and consciousness are in agreement, but that still can be different from what the spirit says. The spirit recognizes the moral implications of stealing and may prompt the logical parts of the brain to pull back and say "I am hungry and want to eat but it is not worth stealing to get the food". Exactly how the spirit communicates that, whether if it is through the subconscious or the consciousness or both is beside the point I am making. The point I am making is that the spirit and the subconscious are not the same thing.

So, where does the spirit fit into that first statement of yours?

[Misshalfway]

Hi Iggy!! Hello to everyone!! It's nice to be back and listen to all your wonderful ideas! And HiJolly, I really appreciated the quote about humility. That seems to be the most comforting sentiment so far.

It's interesting that this conversation has drifted into the workings of the subconscious. Ironically, the subconscious is something none of us can really "know". We can get glimpses, helpful glimpses at times, that can explain our motivations, defenses, and fears. But because I do tend towards Semsnoozer's view that the subconscious acts a lot like the natural man, I don't know if I really trust it as a motivator of higher living. Instead, I look within to see if I can hear the whisperings of self. That's where I find wisdom and I tend to think that is my eternal spirit self. The one that knows stuff from before. If there is something for me to know about the workings of my subconscious, I look to be led to it from self and from God. If others conceptualize "real self" as subconscious, who am I say not to? But for me the conceptualization is less helpful because I don't do my obeying, asking, or sacrificing in a subconscious state.

[Misshalfway]

Seems like I "know" the most when I am the most engaged in seeking after Spiritual things and doubt occurs when I am not. When I doubt...or maybe question what I believe I "know".....I usually can trace the source of my doubts or questions to having "wandered"...as I am prone to do.

Hi Bytor! Lovely to speak with you again. Hope you are well.

This is the answer I expected the most. And I felt myself react dismissively from that place that sometimes dislikes mormon culture. But I decided to look again and give this sentiment another look.

I can specifically recount similar experience. There is something about sanctification that unlocks spiritual tutorials. Of which I can only be grateful. And I do think "I know more" when I am engaged in that process. But I'm not sure I have always experienced doubt or not knowing (which I think are two different things) as only being associated with my disobedience or lack of focus. I think I've experienced most of my doubt in the gethsemane moments. Do you know what I mean? The times where I am doing my best in my own specially designed trials and when God leaves me for a time to learn. These are confusing times. Can anyone relate? It makes me wonder what it was like for Christ when he said, "Why has thou forsaken me?". I think its in these moments when God knows that giving the answers or intervening will not produce lessons learned. And so, He leaves me to grapple with my doubt about Him and what He is doing with me.

[bytor2112]

Hi Bytor! Lovely to speak with you again. Hope you are well.

This is the answer I expected the most. And I felt myself react dismissively from that place that sometimes dislikes mormon culture. But I decided to look again and give this sentiment another look.

I can specifically recount similar experience. There is something about sanctification that unlocks spiritual tutorials. Of which I can only be grateful. And I do think "I know more" when I am engaged in that process. But I'm not sure I have always experienced doubt or not knowing (which I think are two different things) as only being associated with my disobedience or lack of focus. I think I've experienced most of my doubt in the gethsemane moments. Do you know what I mean? The times where I am doing my best in my own specially designed trials and when God leaves me for a time to learn. These are confusing times. Can anyone relate? It makes me wonder what it was like for Christ when he said, "Why has thou forsaken me?". I think its in these moments when God knows that giving the answers or intervening will not produce lessons learned. And so, He leaves me to grapple with my doubt about Him and what He is doing with me.

Nice to hear from you as well....... :)

I sometimes dislike Mormon culture....but not for the reasons associated with my answer. I have found this (my answer) to be personally true. Surely we all learn differently....my learning generally comes from eyeballing the "great and spacious building" and desiring to enter in....more frequently than I care to admit. I am truly among the weakest of Saints and am certain that the Lord is long suffering and patient, because when I awake from my stupor induced by worldly desires, the Lord seems to reward and flood me with Spiritual light that I do not deserve.

As for Mormon culture....that would be a troublesome thread.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Hi Iggy!! Hello to everyone!! It's nice to be back and listen to all your wonderful ideas! And HiJolly, I really appreciated the quote about humility. That seems to be the most comforting sentiment so far.

It's interesting that this conversation has drifted into the workings of the subconscious. Ironically, the subconscious is something none of us can really "know". We can get glimpses, helpful glimpses at times, that can explain our motivations, defenses, and fears. But because I do tend towards Semsnoozer's view that the subconscious acts a lot like the natural man, I don't know if I really trust it as a motivator of higher living. Instead, I look within to see if I can hear the whisperings of self. That's where I find wisdom and I tend to think that is my eternal spirit self. The one that knows stuff from before. If there is something for me to know about the workings of my subconscious, I look to be led to it from self and from God. If others conceptualize "real self" as subconscious, who am I say not to? But for me the conceptualization is less helpful because I don't do my obeying, asking, or sacrificing in a subconscious state.

Thanks!

Yes, this is exactly why we don't do things like smoke Jimson weed to find God. Or search for God in our dreams or near death experiences, etc. We find God in prayerful, focused thought listening to a still small voice that requires extra concentration and consciousness, not the other direction of less consciousness.

[HiJolly]

Thanks for engaging with me, I always enjoy your comments.

I agree, maybe we are talking past each other because it is mostly semantics that we are disagreeing with. Where the spirit ends and the body begins can be very difficult to define. I think the reason I responded to your post is the first statement of "Certainty (or, in LDS terminology, testimony) is a result of the subconscious mental processes underlying our rational, conscious thought. "

In that statement you left out spirit. How does our spiritual self and spiritual knowledge fit into this. I didn't see that you left any room for the spirit in your description of where the testimony comes from. Maybe you assumed the idea that the subconscious is where the spirit influences or at least reflects the spiritual influence is common knowledge but I don't think that is true. Then I suggested that the mind in both the subconscious and conscious parts can be described as a separate entity from spiritual processes (not that they don't interact - that wasn't what I was trying to say) but that they are separately generating thought patterns, spirit and body (body including subconscious paths and conscious). I think the better division that needs to come together in terms of testimony or knowledge is between the spirit and body, not between the subconscious (body) and conscious (body).

If the subconscious part of the brain, for example, says I need food; "I'm hungry" and the conscious part of the brain says "You can get more money by stealing it than earning it to get food" then they are in agreement. The subconscious and consciousness are in agreement, but that still can be different from what the spirit says. The spirit recognizes the moral implications of stealing and may prompt the logical parts of the brain to pull back and say "I am hungry and want to eat but it is not worth stealing to get the food". Exactly how the spirit communicates that, whether if it is through the subconscious or the consciousness or both is beside the point I am making. The point I am making is that the spirit and the subconscious are not the same thing.

So, where does the spirit fit into that first statement of yours?

Ok, here's how I look at it. First, I separate the "mind" from the "brain".

The brain is a physical organ that can be analyzed, disected and examined scientifically. And it has been. And medical/scientific/academic examinations have revealed, and continue to reveal, fascinating details about the physiology of the brain. All the parts. What they do. How they do them. The speed of various nerve ganglion communications. The effect of many enzymes and chemicals. External electric stimuli. The left hemisphere(a kind of serial processor) of the cerebral cortex, as opposed to the right hemisphere(a sort of parallel processor). Connections between the hemispheres. Speach centers. Right brain - left body crossover(etc). The "pain" and "pleasure" center.

Nowhere in any of this is there any indication of or (scientifically speaking), a need for anything else such as a "spirit" or "soul". It's simply biology.

Then there's the mind. A whole different kettle of fish. Except it seems to be inseperably associated with the brain. Which both helps and complicates things.

Scientifically speaking, the mind is a sort of "black box", where we can measure inputs and outputs, but we can't see what's actually happening in the box. So the scientific study (in the guise of psychology, chiefly) has been more based in response to stimuli, or "behavioralism". This is changing, though, in recent years as the sophistication of brain physiology research has increased.

In the hidden 'box' of the mind, we think. We recognize "feelings" such as pain, and emotions such as happiness. We remember past events or emotions. We experience consciousness. And dreams. And none of it happens without brains.

I think of the 'mind' as having three basic functions. Thinking, feeling and doing. All three of these are done both consciously and subconsciously, with the majority of all of them occuring in the subconscious mind. In relation to the brain, we also see that for most people, the majority of our *conscious* processing occurs in the left brain, whilst the majority of our *subconscious* processing occurs.... HAH! Thought you'd catch me, didn't you? Well, we just don't know where the majority of that processing occurs, because we just can't see it happening (current science may reveal this to us, if it hasn't already -- I believe it's just a matter of time).

So let me say something now about the human conscience. That facility within us to sort out the 'right' from the 'wrong'. We have learned through at least one series of experiments that a 'universal' standard of what is right probably does not really exist. This complicates the LDS understanding of the Light of Christ as our conscience, where it seems that there's more to it than that. Thankfully the Book of Mormon sheds some light on this.

Alma 26:37

Now my brethren, we see that God is mindful of every people, whatsoever land they may be in; yea, he numbereth his people, and his bowels of mercy are over all the earth. Now this is my joy, and my great thanksgiving; yea, and I will give thanks unto my God forever. Amen.

and more especially:

2 Nephi 31:3

For my soul delighteth in plainness; for after this manner doth the Lord God work among the children of men. For the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding.

SQUIRREL!! my ADD is acting up SQUIRREL!!

Going to have to continue later. I welcome any comment, especially any based on science.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

If others conceptualize "real self" as subconscious, who am I say not to?

I don't know if you're thinking of me as you say this, but to repeat myself, I didn't say this and I don't believe it, either. FWIW.

But for me the conceptualization is less helpful because I don't do my obeying, asking, or sacrificing in a subconscious state.

Sometimes I do. You know, we *are* our subconscious mind as well as our conscious mind. We must own them both, scary as that can be. IMO.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

I think the reason I responded to your post is the first statement of "Certainty (or, in LDS terminology, testimony) is a result of the subconscious mental processes underlying our rational, conscious thought. "

In that statement you left out spirit. How does our spiritual self and spiritual knowledge fit into this.

So, where does the spirit fit into that first statement of yours?

I don't exactly know, but I do know that it does fit in there somewhere. How do I know? Because of personal experience. This is the subjective experience of the conscious mind that science finds it so difficult to analyze. But none of us, scientific or not, can deny that we experience things in our lives, and that the things while subjective are still none the less very real.

Let's do a test. Based on this statement from Dr. Burton's book, this will very likely help you FEEL and analyze within your own mind, the experience of moving from uncertainty to certainty.

A newspaper is better than a magazine. A seashore is a better

place than the street. At first it is better to run than to walk.

You may have to try several times. It takes some skill, but it is

easy to learn. Even young children can enjoy it. Once successful,

complications are minimal. Birds seldom get too close. Rain,

however, soaks in very fast. Too many people doing the same thing

can also cause problems. One needs lots of room. If there are no

complications, it can be very peaceful. A rock will serve as an

anchor. If things break loose from it, however, you will not get a

second chance.

Now you're probably wondering what this paragraph is referring to. When I name the object(and related activity) being described, you will within a second or two have the sensation of being certain that I am right. When you're ready, read on down and see what the thing is.

Pause.

Feel

the

flavor

of

the

transition

of

your

thought.

Here is the thing described:

A kite. Flying a kite.

Now. Ask yourself -- where is the spirit in this process? Is there a need for the spirit? Why or why not? Did you notice that you did not choose to know that "kite" was correct, but rather you just somehow *knew* it was right? That's because the choice was made in your subconscious thinking.

Any comments at this point? I absolutely loved reading this book, BTW.

HiJolly

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think of the 'mind' as having three basic functions. Thinking, feeling and doing. All three of these are done both consciously and subconsciously, with the majority of all of them occuring in the subconscious mind. In relation to the brain, we also see that for most people, the majority of our *conscious* processing occurs in the left brain, whilst the majority of our *subconscious* processing occurs.... HAH! Thought you'd catch me, didn't you? Well, we just don't know where the majority of that processing occurs, because we just can't see it happening (current science may reveal this to us, if it hasn't already -- I believe it's just a matter of time).

Thanks for your great response. I appreciate your willingness to have this conversation with me.

I think you limiting the brain to those three functions is probably why you equate the subconscious to spiritual activity. "Thinking", I am assuming (tell me if I am wrong) is what you would describe as conscious thought. I am not sure what you would call subconscious "thinking". "Feeling" is mostly a conscious thing but what would you call a reflex seen in a person who is in a coma? If I pinch the toe of a person in a coma they may still respond with a withdrawal reflex, was it felt? The person may wake up from the coma and not remember anything that occurred during that time. The sensory firing of the neuron can be measured with electromyelogram even when the person is in a coma, unconscious state.

Sleep is an unconscious state but if I spray a mist on someone's face while they are in dreaming sleep, suddenly they start dreaming that they are in a rain storm or swimming etc. Or people with sleep apnea often dream that they are drowning or choking. So how did they "feel" in an unconscious state? This is not unknown or some mystery. It has been measured over and over again. The sensory modalities within sleep are partially on even if they are not necessarily processed in the consciousness parts of the brain, in the frontal lobes and parts of the temporal lobes. The stimulus is registered with somatosensory evoked potential testing while in sleep. The brain uses as much energy at night, asleep, as it does during most of the day. Being in an unconscious state, in other words, is not shutting off the brain, the brain is "on" during that time. All the parts that are active in sleep, for example, is where the neuroanatomy of the subconscious lies. This is not an unknown or mysterious thing.

Doing can also be done in a subconscious frame of mind. Ask any drunk driver or someone who has frontal lobe seizures, they do many things they are not consciously aware of. I would then say, measuring the activity of the brain during those states of mind would be the neuroanatomy equivalent to where the subconscious is located. And this has been done over and over again a million times.

The thing, I think, you left out of what the brain does besides thinking, feeling and doing which is 'spontaneous imagination' and the creation of misinformation. I suppose you can put it into the "thinking" category but unlike your "black box" analogy, spontaneous imagination does not require any input. The brain is perfectly capable, on its own, without any input of making up various sensations, "mind's eye", fears, passions, likes and dislikes, preferences, filling in the holes of information with made up information, dreaming, psychosis, phobias, compulsions, automatisms, mannerisms, etc.

If someone, for example, has a visual association cortex seizure, they may experience seeing a "made up by the brain" image of a person that does not exist or some monster or alien being or just a blob or shimmering lights etc. Did that come from the spirit? No. Did it come from any thought? No. Did it come from anything felt or done? No.

When a person has Kluver-Bucy Syndrome and towards the end stages when they are not processing information very well and even become unaware of family members but become hypersexual and even develop sexual attractions to inappropriate objects where does that come from? Does it come from the spirit? No. Does it come from their own thought pattern, in other words they are doing it because they thought about acting that way and want to? No. So, where does it come from? It comes from uninhibited subconscious drives.

When a person with Alzheimer's wanders up to the podium and interrupts the speaker to proclaim that she has married Joseph Smith and is now undergoing transfiguration as she speaks (which actually happened in our ward a few months ago), where does that thought come from? The spirit? No. It is from subconscious, uninhibited thought, revealing in part some of the subconscious thought patterns that normally get put into check by the logical parts of the brain.

What is speaking when a person speaks under the influence of GHB? Is it the spirit? I would say no, I would say it is the subconscious speaking but in an altered way.

... you are getting my ADD going too, lol. Thanks for the conversation.

[Misshalfway]

Me thinks my thread has been hijacked by people who "know" stuff. :)

Just kidding, folks. Carry on...

[Guest]

Me thinks my thread has been hijacked by people who "know" stuff. :)

Just kidding, folks. Carry on...

I knew it!!!

[HiJolly]

Thanks for your great response. I appreciate your willingness to have this conversation with me.

I think you limiting the brain to those three functions is probably why you equate the subconscious to spiritual activity. "Thinking", I am assuming (tell me if I am wrong) is what you would describe as conscious thought. I am not sure what you would call subconscious "thinking". "Feeling" is mostly a conscious thing but what would you call a reflex seen in a person who is in a coma? If I pinch the toe of a person in a coma they may still respond with a withdrawal reflex, was it felt? The person may wake up from the coma and not remember anything that occurred during that time. The sensory firing of the neuron can be measured with electromyelogram even when the person is in a coma, unconscious state.

Sleep is an unconscious state but if I spray a mist on someone's face while they are in dreaming sleep, suddenly they start dreaming that they are in a rain storm or swimming etc. Or people with sleep apnea often dream that they are drowning or choking. So how did they "feel" in an unconscious state? This is not unknown or some mystery. It has been measured over and over again. The sensory modalities within sleep are partially on even if they are not necessarily processed in the consciousness parts of the brain, in the frontal lobes and parts of the temporal lobes. The stimulus is registered with somatosensory evoked potential testing while in sleep. The brain uses as much energy at night, asleep, as it does during most of the day. Being in an unconscious state, in other words, is not shutting off the brain, the brain is "on" during that time. All the parts that are active in sleep, for example, is where the neuroanatomy of the subconscious lies. This is not an unknown or mysterious thing.

Doing can also be done in a subconscious frame of mind. Ask any drunk driver or someone who has frontal lobe seizures, they do many things they are not consciously aware of. I would then say, measuring the activity of the brain during those states of mind would be the neuroanatomy equivalent to where the subconscious is located. And this has been done over and over again a million times.

The thing, I think, you left out of what the brain does besides thinking, feeling and doing which is 'spontaneous imagination' and the creation of misinformation. I suppose you can put it into the "thinking" category but unlike your "black box" analogy, spontaneous imagination does not require any input. The brain is perfectly capable, on its own, without any input of making up various sensations, "mind's eye", fears, passions, likes and dislikes, preferences, filling in the holes of information with made up information, dreaming, psychosis, phobias, compulsions, automatisms, mannerisms, etc.

If someone, for example, has a visual association cortex seizure, they may experience seeing a "made up by the brain" image of a person that does not exist or some monster or alien being or just a blob or shimmering lights etc. Did that come from the spirit? No. Did it come from any thought? No. Did it come from anything felt or done? No.

When a person has Kluver-Bucy Syndrome and towards the end stages when they are not processing information very well and even become unaware of family members but become hypersexual and even develop sexual attractions to inappropriate objects where does that come from? Does it come from the spirit? No. Does it come from their own thought pattern, in other words they are doing it because they thought about acting that way and want to? No. So, where does it come from? It comes from uninhibited subconscious drives.

When a person with Alzheimer's wanders up to the podium and interrupts the speaker to proclaim that she has married Joseph Smith and is now undergoing transfiguration as she speaks (which actually happened in our ward a few months ago), where does that thought come from? The spirit? No. It is from subconscious, uninhibited thought, revealing in part some of the subconscious thought patterns that normally get put into check by the logical parts of the brain.

What is speaking when a person speaks under the influence of GHB? Is it the spirit? I would say no, I would say it is the subconscious speaking but in an altered way.

... you are getting my ADD going too, lol. Thanks for the conversation.

thanks for the response. I am swamped at work so must wait to respond except for this -- yes, I think the subconscious mind actually thinks. and remembers. and more.

HJ