Faith And Works

[Dr T]

When Jesus told that lady to "go and sin no more" do you really think she was able? That verse makes sense in that she was to "go and sin no more (in that way-adultery)" not all sins-although that would be great! :)

[rosie321]

When Jesus told that lady to "go and sin no more" do you really think she was able? That verse makes sense in that she was to "go and sin no more (in that way-adultery)" not all sins-although that would be great

I am certain her motivation levels were increased !

[rosie321]

Seriously , the situation of the lady for example taught a few lessons in one.

Let it be said, When you have a grace extended like happened to the lady you certainly want to show your appreciation. A changed heart will want to do as directed.

God cannot say go and sin (mess up your house) . There is no excuse. He will not

She can learn how not to sin again (with a command like that she'd certainly have motivation to avoid troubling things) and to avoid tempatation.

Opportunities for cleansing, repentence, sacrament etc still are there to help her clean herself off.

[Ray]

This verse brings up a question for me:

2 Nephi 10:24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

I guess my issue in all this is Who reconciles with whom? Is it God's work that saves or is it the work of man that reconciles us to God?

Thanks for you input,

Dr. T

I think Nephi meant that it's up to us to reconcile our will to God's will... to always be "at one" with God.

Whenever we slip, and revert to our will, we should Repent and do God's will, again.

And I'm using the word "should" for all of us who want our will and God's will to be "one".

It is all up to us, now. We all have free will. And through the "atonement", and our will, we'll become God.

[Dr T]

Thanks again Rosie. That is understood-we are not to mess up the house thinking, "we're covered" that is not what I'm trying to say. A changed heart does happen (I suppose) but that is not what earns any salvation. As Ray's last post highlights-I have a problem with that type of thinking. See below.

Hello Ray,

the idea of "...to always be "at one" with God" would have to come from Jesus’ work not ours. We cannot earn our way into salvation. If your idea is the way it works and you are prideful just before death does that mean you are eternally separated from the presence of God? If it is all based on God's work and grace to save people, then there is a security of salvation. The last part about "becoming a god" is very hard for me to accept.

Dr. T

[Ray]

Hello Ray,

the idea of "...to always be "at one" with God" would have to come from Jesus’ work not ours.

Are you thinking that Jesus must somehow make (or will) our will to be God's will?

That it is God's will that makes our will His?

That God takes our free will without us giving God our consent to do what God wants with us?

I suppose you could say that. God gives us commandments. But God also lets us choose to obey them.

We cannot earn our way into salvation.

I agree with that thought totally.

Even when we choose to make our will conform to God's will, perfectly, it is still up to God to save us.

We can never do anything to "earn" it.

If your idea is the way it works and you are prideful just before death does that mean you are eternally separated from the presence of God?

Heh, please elaborate on what you mean by "being prideful"?

If any time our free will is not subject to God's will, I say we then are in big trouble... but if we choose to Repent, and make God's will our will, I believe God will ALWAYS forgive us.

That's what I believe the atonement was all about.

If it is all based on God's work and grace to save people, then there is a security of salvation.

Salvation IS based on God's work and God's grace, but we must let God have our free will.

Let go (of your will) and let God (save you). It is God's will that you choose to let Him help you.

The last part about "becoming a god" is very hard for me to accept.

Why is that, Doc? Try to get to what I'm thinking, despite my words.

When your will is God's will, you are doing God's works. It is no longer you, but God...

... at least as far as God is within you.

I'm not saying that you and God will be the very same person...

... you'll still keep your own identity.

[Dr T]

I used pride as an example. It could have been any sin. Say we did not tell the whole truth just before death and do not have time to repent. Jesus still covers that. That was my point.

[rosie321]

Its hard to break down in one easy thing a concept as great and enormous as this .

Ultimately it keeps coming back to me that the underlying thing beneath it all thats being asked. What must I do to be saved? Or will I every be worthy? Will I ever be perfect enough (especially if I'M in the picture). So thats why I keep taking it this way.

Let me take certain LDS concepts, with volumes of potential learning involved in each, to help me that might help and explain a basis for better understanding the topic. Hopefully I wont' confuse you more. Bear with me as a bounce around sharing some things that may be helpful (or not) I think this may be my worst post yet on this topic as I'm pulling from all over. But the hope is that despite the randomness understanding may be increased. Its more complex than it looks.

There is an overall plan we must follow. But as in everyplan there is much room to individualization. Thats why one blanket judgement will not cover all. We are warned not to judge.

Gods saving grace and salvation are there we just spend our lives trying to comprehend it. PC gave a good post about how you have one side grace the other works but ultimately its a unique marriage of the two .

As CK said our works lead us to greater understanding. Our obedience will not change it but it is a good indicator of where we are at. They are things put there to help us learn, grow and comprehend. Unfortunately, people have a tendancy to not care as much for the things that are free. People also like to take the easy way and put off serious decisions. If I can get away with things and hop on later then why now? Why make a decision that would make me stop or change certain things. I want to live it up now. Thus the BOm verse about do not procrastinate the day of your repentence. Once you start doing those things,

More than just this life on earth to consider. This life is but a brief time in a much bigger perspective. This takes off some of the pressure but it can also lead us to make bad choices which may eventually lead to our ripened destruction.

Everything happens in its own due time. When you plant seeds each one has its own span of time before they will grow and flourish.

Free Agency- Everyone will have an ultimate choice or moment of decision to act in faith or not. To follow the will of God or not. There are many people walking around that have never had an opportunity to know here on earth but there will be that time. Thus temple work.

Who would have thought Peter, working with Christ all the time would need to have the conversion. But Christ said that he prayed that he would be converted. That his heart would be changed. There is that changing point. The Lord knows our hearts and minds and probably has a good idea where and when that change will happen since he is God. Some will probably not have it here on earth. They are here for some other purpose to teach, sacrifice etc. Who knows...

We existed in the pre existance. We have different things we need to learn on earth. This is our probation. We have the temple work for those who did not know. One of the most poignant moments where I understood the power of everyone will learn is when I witnessed the death of an innocent child. This kid had nothing but evil happen to him. He knew nothing of God in this life and if he did I can only imagine that he probably hated him because of all that was done to him and why he couldn't be saved. I witnessed the moving tears as people worked furiously to save him. So he might taste one moment of hope in this life. There were a few loving Christians there who's hearts were broken because he never had an opportunity to know Christ. In my heart I bear the innocence on that child. He was dependent on others. He never really had the chance to choose or know. With the evidence I had I probably would never except a God that could be so cruel. But many lessons were taught from that kids death. I know strongly inside that he will not be turned away because he didn't pray or do everything perfectly. I know that everyone will have that moment or opportunity to accept or reject. His was not in this lifetime. But for many others there the horrible circumstances left some powerful messages to those who witnessed. Some may have been drawn to their moment of decision from the lessons they learned.

Prayer and scripture study will help reveal to us those things that we should be doing and bring us peace and God's grace.

Sacrament, baptism and ordinances while they are "works" we do. They are a visible display of Gods grace and reminds us of our dependance on it.

There is the law of the harvest or a basic fundamentals of physics Every action leads to some reaction. This carries through the eternities. We are being trained to choose and plant wisely. There is the valuable learning that comes through the doing. Focusing on I have this so there's nothing I need to do does not allow us the opportunity to really know and understand.

Some people never are able to experience a change of heart or see truth because of some fruits of their actions. They withdraw the spirit. Each person will be given at least once in their life the opportunity to accept or reject. When or how-talk to God. If you're thinking about it-decision time is there.

Lots of decisions shape our lifes and draw us closer or farther away from experiencing. But at one point and time comes that point of no return.

The change from black to white involves many changing grays to the visible eye. We are always learning and growing.

Not everyone will make it to where they are hoping. I think we all understand that. There's hell, outter darkness, three degrees of glory etc. Certain actions /thoughts do sway. Christ gives support to his elect that others do not get. He talks about how he is there for the elect. The ones who want him. So to some degree once you get into the inner circle then you're there. The probability of turning is probably little to none.

Ultimately God sees people clean and pure when they appear as His Son. Refusing to obey and follow His Son makes us dirty. Think about a person who bad talks a supervisor once they leave the room. I think the person who does what the supervisor asks would be a person preferable to that. There's just a dirtiness that covers the bad talking person who does not constructively bring the issues up to the supervisor.

God knows our hearts

We all have or will have a choice at some time. A turning point. In LDS its getting a testimony of something, or in christian faiths the turning to the Lord. A change of heart. Why and when it happens who knows. Thats the great mystery. But once its there you are HIs . Your works are worthless

Following the commands builds up greater immunity to the adversary and allows us to better help one another. Thus enabling others to reach their point of decision.

Gonna stop there hope it helped I guess the ultimate point of my ramblings was that many things affect our ability to understand, and to get one concept you have to understand others more. Those concepts I listed were ones that I think are relevant here to some degree..

[Ray]

Those were good thoughts, Rosie. I'm not being condescending. I appreciate what you said. I see truth.

I like to try to keep it simple, saying as much as I can, without saying a whole lot using words.

Say we did not tell the whole truth just before death and do not have time to repent. Jesus still covers that. That was my point.

Heh, I never tell the whole truth, if I know what you mean.

Do you know what that would really involve?

What you're seeing right now are some itty bitty pieces.

There is always some more truth I could share.

And there is no sin involved when I don't share the whole truth.

There is more I could share than you know.

There is more I could share than I know.

And there is more I will know when God shares the whole truth... as long as God shares it with me.

[Dr T]

Thank you for your thoughts Rosie. Again, in the end, "...reveal to us those things that we should be doing and bring us peace and God's grace." That is what I'm trying (poorly) to say-"we don't have to DO anything to bring His grace" beside belief and acceptance of his gift.

Ray,

You complicate even the simplest things sometimes (with your limited words that are so verbose)

[Ray]

Ray,

You complicate even the simplest things sometimes (with your limited words that are so verbose)

Heh, that's your opinion, Doc. They were already "complicated". I didn't do that. That tweren't me. :)

You try sharing your thoughts about how God saves us. Go on. I'll always listen. Can you help me?

I am truly beyond your ability to help me. I know that's true, but is it sad? I don't thinnnkkk sooo.

:)

[rosie321]

[

That is what I'm trying (poorly) to say-"we don't have to DO anything to bring His grace" beside belief and acceptance of his gift.

I hear you. But to me belief and acceptance of his gift are a work. Then you recieve the grace.

No matter how you look at it Which came first chicken or the egg, Grace and work are hand in hand forever. YOu can't have one without the other

[Ray]

Grace and work are hand in hand forever. You can't have one without the other.

Yes, but all good works are truly only God's works. Without God, we do nothing good.

God is the good tree. We can be branches. When we bear some good fruit, it's all His.

[rosie321]

Yes, but all good works are truly only God's works. Without God, we do nothing good.

God is the good tree. We can be branches. When we bear some good fruit, it's all His.

No argument there

[Maureen]

Ultimately it keeps coming back to me that the underlying thing beneath it all thats being asked. What must I do to be saved? Or will I every be worthy? Will I ever be perfect enough (especially if I'M in the picture). So thats why I keep taking it this way.

What must I do to be saved? Or will I every be worthy?

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:8-10)

When we accept God's grace, we accept his righteousness, his mercy, his judgement, his love. When we have become new due to God's grace we also become worthy. Only through faith in God's power to save us do we become worthy.

M.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

Ultimately it keeps coming back to me that the underlying thing beneath it all thats being asked. What must I do to be saved? Or will I every be worthy? Will I ever be perfect enough (especially if I'M in the picture). So thats why I keep taking it this way.

What must I do to be saved? Or will I every be worthy?

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:8-10)

When we accept God's grace, we accept his righteousness, his mercy, his judgement, his love. When we have become new due to God's grace we also become worthy. Only through faith in God's power to save us do we become worthy.

M.

Amen.

[rosie321]

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:8-10)

The red indicates to me that we must be shown by someone doing what they are supposed to -preaching.

The word even in thy mind in heart -indicates to me a sincerity and intensity. The person is not just passive. They are also required to believe in thine heart-in the raising of the dead (grace). So grace will save you as well as your actions.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness

and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I'm sorry but those to unto's I highlighted paint the picture for me that its not instantenous or as simple as one might think.

This is not to say you are wrong. As I said before, I do believe the two are undeniably intertwined. If you have been truly touched by grace and faith you will do all necessary for the unto's (righteousness and salvation).

[Maureen]

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness

and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I'm sorry but those to unto's I highlighted paint the picture for me that its not instantenous or as simple as one might think.

This is not to say you are wrong. As I said before, I do believe the two are undeniably intertwined. If you have been truly touched by grace and faith you will do all necessary for the unto's (righteousness and salvation).

Here's the translation from the NET Bible:

For with the heart one believes and thus has righteousness 11 and with the mouth one confesses and thus has salvation. 12 (Romans 10:10)

11 tn Grk “believes to righteousness.”

12 tn Grk “confesses to salvation.”

M.

[Ray]

Just one little alteration, if I may:

<strike>If</strike> When you have been truly touched by grace and faith you will have all the power you need to do all <strike>necessary</strike> God wants you to do for the unto's (righteousness and salvation).

It is then up to you do to "all you can do"... and with God, you'll be doing good works.

[rosie321]

Just one little alteration, if I may:

<strike>If</strike> When you have been truly touched by grace and faith you will have all the power you need to do all <strike>necessary</strike> God wants you to do for the unto's (righteousness and salvation).

It is then up to you do to "all you can do"... and with God, you'll be doing good works.

Totally greed Thanks

oops -thats agreed

[boyando]

Matthew chapter 19

¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

1Nephi chapter 22

31 Wherefore, ye need not suppose that I and my father are the only ones that have testified, and also taught them. Wherefore, if ye shall be obedient to the commandments, and endure to the end, ye shall be saved at the last day. And thus it is. Amen.

[Dr T]

Hi AMH,

The very next verse says:

vs. 26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Another reason that I conclude that it is God not us.

Dr. T

[rosie321]

vs. 26 But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Another reason that I conclude that it is God not us.

Dr. T

Thats why we want to be AT ONE with God's will?

I guess this raises the question for me so its God's fault that people do not follow him or start and then stop? How can someone just stop. For example Lucifer himself was a beloved angel of Light. He was in Gods presence yet he turned away.

For me I believe there is a defining moment where you choose to totally turn yourself over to the Will Of God. His will then does take control and all the blessings associated with following it. You will always have choice over the actions you do. But hopefully the goodness of the Lord will take away all desire towards bad. I believe this is one of the most beautiful parts of the gospel. That God has given us the opportunity to learn and grow and be like Him. It is a loving and unselfish thing. But a scarier thing for our mortal minds to understand.

For example. We might want to have the final graduate degree in our hand in kindergarten (before we finish all the work needed). The plan that I see presented through your questions is here have the piece of paper now. Because I know you'll finish it sometime. This school has the best educational program, the teachers are great.

Instead I tend to take the approach that no you will not graduate until you have completed all the work. YOu have to go through the motions no matter how great you are or whoever it is that you think you know. But understand and take hold of the promise you have been given that yes everyone who turns to me will make it through. I'll give you a curve if needed but you must give me the best efforts you can. There is important stuff you need to learn and understand. You will only get that through the doing. If I give you your degree now your hearts motivation would not be there.

Would you want a doctor working on you that had his degree given to him without the work or one who had gained experiences along the way?

Dare I say you can even see this among some of the welfare population forced to work. Well if I get fired who cares. I still get money coming in either way. That mentality has its flaws to me. I'd rather see someone work hard to benefit their family and go down trying. To me that example means more than just collecting free money?

Does that help?

One extra thought to get our degree we do need to go through a program.

God's program is from the ivy league school and will give us what we need. Why would you want to go elsewhere? We will get the best education that will take us wherever we want to go from there. When people get into His program most recognize this and they stay there and follow his degree program. But not everyone probably chooses to do so.

You can go to some "papermill" type school which may open up a few doors here or there. But without the degree and sometimes from the right program we will not get to where we had hoped to go.

So yes with God all things are possible but with man's plans they might not get us to the same place

[Ray]

It's really just a matter of the words we choose to use to express all our thoughts and our feelings.

I think we are in agreement on this issue, basically.. It IS only God who saves us.

What "keeping the commandments" means, to use some other words, is "keeping God's will as our will".

Does anyone believe we can choose to commit a sin and, without Repenting, be allowed in God's presence?

That God allows us to do "whatever" we want to do... as long as we know what Jesus did?

I don't think anyone is saying that.

I think we're giving God the credit for what God is helping us do.

It's not what I do that saves me at any time, aside from letting God work in my life.

And whose works do I do when my will is God's will?

They're God's works... they're not my works. It is not me.

[Dr T]

I have not read the whole post-I will later but I have to run. Just wanted to say that Lucifer fell because he wasnted to be God. That is another reason that I had a problem with Rays statement of "we can become God."