New here with questions - please bear with me

[SisterSarah]

Hello,

My name is Sarah. I am new to this forum but have been reading posts for quite a while.

To begin please bear with me because this post may be kind of long. And please do not judge me regarding my questions. I believe in mutual respect. I say this up front because I have been a member of the LDS church for almost 10 years and if ever I have a question at church I am either avoided, or I am ignored and subject changed.

I am not here to change anyone's view points; rather I simply want my questions respected and maybe I can find some answers that can put things in much better perspective for me.

I have so many questions that one post could not do it justice but will begin with some things that have been on my mind for as long as I have been a member and even before.

Both my husband and I were brought up Catholic. Typical Catholic school through elementary, public high school, and university. We married in the catholic church, raised two daughters and pursued our professional careers. The early part of of marriage was oriented toward our careers and raising our two girls. Our church life consisted of having the girls baptized, first communion and catholic school during the elementary school years.

This was mainly because we preferred sending our girls to a private school where we felt the education was better than the public school alternative. Other than that, our church attendance was mainly attending friends weddings, christenings, and midnight mass on Christmas Eve. We never really bought into the teachings of the Catholic church, however, we did believe in God, the bible and much of what Jesus taught during his time on earth.

When our daughters graduated from high school, and moved away to college, my husband and I developed what some call the "empty nest" syndrome. It was around this time that we got a knock on our door from the missionaries. We took the lessons and started attending church, and during this time we developed a lot of new friendships. In the height of our careers and raising children, we didn't make a lot of time for close friendships and much structured social life. At this point in our lives with children raised, careers established and more free time, we really welcomed our new friendships and structured social life.

Truth be told at the time our main reason for joining the church was the social life. We became active and held several callings over the years. Since our daughters were already in college, they never joined the church with us or afterward. Our oldest daughter married a catholic, are very involved in the Catholic church and have three children of their own. Our younger daughter is more recently married after taking more time to pursue post graduate work and her career. She and her husband travel a lot with their professional careers and made a firm decision before getting married not to have children. And although they believe in God and are not atheists, they choose not to practice any organized religion.

That's the background so perhaps that will give you a perspective on our religious background.

Now when it comes to questions:

My husband and I accepted an opportunity to moved to another town where both our children wound up settling. The good part is we can be closer to them. The down side is the old LDS friendships trailed away. And the new Ward does not seem to offer the kind of friendships we had left behind. For the past three years at out new Ward, we have been active in body but not exactly fully in mind and spirit.

More and more when my husband and I return home from church we have discussions about things that we cannot bring up in church for fear of being apostates. Our new Ward seems much more Christian fundamentalist with a LOT of strong emphasis on salvation, "enduring to the end" planning for impending disasters, striving to be sure we are worthy for the celestial kingdom and the urgency to do Temple work. These things of course are the teachings of the church, and they are good solid teachings. However, it seems to us that the focus is so negative. It seems like the fun is out of life in this Ward and it's just all about struggling, striving, enduring, waiting for impending disasters. Honestly when we get home from church we are beginning to feel frustrated and depressed over this fatalistic approach.

We don't want to leave, and yes we have spent a decade in prayer, fasting, scripture study and church involvement. When we go to fast and testament we can no longer share our feelings, ideas, or be built up spiritually. The new meetings are simply everyone saying the Same thing.... I know this church is true, I know God lives, I know we have a living prophet. Yes we get that, we agree and we understand that but repeating the exact same words isn't any different than the memorized prayers of our catholic catechism days.

So here are my questions:

1. Is it wrong to focus on the positive? The love of God. The teachings of Jesus while he walked the Earth. The Gospels that show what Jesus actually said while on this earth were positive, forgiving, healing, inspirational. In fact Jesus spent more time healing people than he even preached. So why at church are their only priesthood blessings but no healing focus? Jesus did say to go out and do likewise which included healing miracles yet it is not a focus in the church even though it was a very strong focus of Jesus.

2. What about unconditional love? The unconditional love of God our creator? We are now hearing so much about "conditional love". God loves us more when we tithe, refrain from coffee and tea, alcohol and smoking, and sustain the leaders of the church. Don't get me wrong, we do sustain the leaders of the church, we do tithe and follow the words of wisdom, and we know what is healthy and not healthy and what is good for our bodies. But is a person not worthy enough in the eyes of God because they don't drink coffee but they eat tons of junk food, become obese from not caring for themselves, but they are more worthy than the ones drinking a cup of coffee? Jesus told people that were about to stone a prostitute to cast the first stone if they were without sin, and no one did because everyone has there sins/faults etc: Yet why is it thought that God would lock up the gates of the Celestial Kingdom to the coffee drinkers, smokers but not the sugar addicts?

3. Regarding families being sealed? God blessed us with two beautiful daughters. We raised them well. We never heard of the church when they were growing up. It is hard to imagine a loving creator God opening the Celestial Kingdom gates to "worthy" parents yet not allowing the children that he blessed them with to be with them. And in the same note, it would be hard to imagine this and yet allowing the ancestors admission even though they lived a life that was far from worthy by nay standards but they are welcome into the celestial kingdom because they were baptized after their death. This seems in just since if that is the case because people living good lives are denied entry for not being members of the church. Yet if that is the case why wouldn't people just live however they pleased, smoking, drinking, living a life of sin but still get to the celestial kingdom because someone baptized them after they died.

We have other questions but all are basically along this line. We would really love to go to church and walk out three hours later feeling uplifted, inspired and spiritually whole. We wish there was a focus on the unconditional love of God because there is no love when it's conditional. We wish we could have a lot of lesson time about the miraculous healings that Jesus performed and instructed his followers to perform also. And we wish most of all that the concentration of our church teachings was in how to live the fullness of joy not simply endure to the end. In other words, learning to live and not simply preparing to die.

Again this is in no way meant to challenge or offend anyone. We respect everyone's beliefs, both LDS members and non members.

I hope some come here and share their perspective. Please don't judge us because we have questions or see things differently.

Sarah

[Heber13]

Sarah,

Welcome to the forum! It is great to read your story. You have some good questions.

Here are some of my thoughts:

Is it wrong to focus on the positive? The love of God.

No, it is the right thing to do. Sometimes, although others are going through trials, we can be a positive example in our ward of positive and optimistic outlooks. Others may need to hear your views on that.

Yet why is it thought that God would lock up the gates of the Celestial Kingdom to the coffee drinkers, smokers but not the sugar addicts?

I think we can sometimes place too much emphasis on the Word of Wisdom standards, instead of the wisdom of the words found in the D&C 89. It is a good thing to commit to and live up to the standards the church has, including avoiding coffee, tea, and smoking. That does not mean everything else is ok. The Lord wants us to learn the spirit of the law, and grow in maturity so we don't need to be commanded in all things, but take correct principles and choose wisely. So, temperance in all things, including sugar, is what we should internalize. We should not shun others who smoke or drink. Because we don't live it, doesn't mean we don't love others who live differently. I think there will be more things God will use to determine who gets into the CK than coffee, tea, and smoking. We should keep things in perspective, and as you said, use love. Love is the great commandment.

Regarding families being sealed? ...It is hard to imagine a loving creator God opening the Celestial Kingdom gates to "worthy" parents yet not allowing the children that he blessed them with to be with them.

I love the teaching families can be sealed together forever. But I also see God's teachings that we must choose and want to be with God. Even the power of the priesthood and sealings cannot over ride freedom of choice.

It is like my sister whose son was just married in the temple, and she did not have a recommend to see her first son married. It hurt her. It can be hard to understand why the church would keep her from wanting to be with him on a special occasion.

But the rules and standards and known and are set. Just because the family wants to be in the temple, doesn't give them the right to be in the temple. But a way is provided they can choose to be in the temple. IF they choose otherwise, there are consequences they don't get to choose.

However, I think God is merciful and wants families together. But He has also set the rules so people can choose. The good news is that the Atonement, and repentance in this life and the spirit world give us hope that nothing is final in our families to be together.

We just need to have faith. And trust in God's plan.

I hope that helps. Those are my thoughts.

[Just_A_Guy]

1. Is it wrong to focus on the positive? The love of God. The teachings of Jesus while he walked the Earth. The Gospels that show what Jesus actually said while on this earth were positive, forgiving, healing, inspirational. In fact Jesus spent more time healing people than he even preached. So why at church are their only priesthood blessings but no healing focus? Jesus did say to go out and do likewise which included healing miracles yet it is not a focus in the church even though it was a very strong focus of Jesus.

Sounds like a critical mass of your ward members have "gospel hobby horses". Maybe the reason God wants you there is to be an example of a more positive and holistic Gospel lifestyle?

2. What about unconditional love? The unconditional love of God our creator? We are now hearing so much about "conditional love". God loves us more when we tithe, refrain from coffee and tea, alcohol and smoking, and sustain the leaders of the church.

Don't get me wrong, we do sustain the leaders of the church, we do tithe and follow the words of wisdom, and we know what is healthy and not healthy and what is good for our bodies. But is a person not worthy enough in the eyes of God because they don't drink coffee but they eat tons of junk food, become obese from not caring for themselves, but they are more worthy than the ones drinking a cup of coffee?

I accept Elder Nelson's remarks about conditional love generally; but I do not think they mean (nor do I think Elder Nelson would have them interpreted as saying) that God loves you less when you don't tithe or violate the Word of Wisdom.

Jesus told people that were about to stone a prostitute to cast the first stone if they were without sin, and no one did because everyone has there sins/faults etc:

(Just a note here: They didn't throw a stone because under Mosaic law, the first stone had to be thrown by an accuser who a) had first-hand knowledge of the accused's sin, and b) had not been an accomplice in the accused's sin. No one in the mob facing the Savior met both of those criteria. Jesus, of course, would have known this. :) )

Yet why is it thought that God would lock up the gates of the Celestial Kingdom to the coffee drinkers, smokers but not the sugar addicts?

Mormonism is actually quite singularly universalistic. We basically teach that the conventional Christian notion of Heaven will be open to pretty much everyone except the vilest, most hardened rebels against God.

The "Celestial Kingdom" entails actual Godhood, and IMHO it is quite rational (and even prudent) for God to decline to give divine power to those who have shown they are not willing or able to use it correctly.

3. Regarding families being sealed? God blessed us with two beautiful daughters. We raised them well. We never heard of the church when they were growing up. It is hard to imagine a loving creator God opening the Celestial Kingdom gates to "worthy" parents yet not allowing the children that he blessed them with to be with them. And in the same note, it would be hard to imagine this and yet allowing the ancestors admission even though they lived a life that was far from worthy by nay standards but they are welcome into the celestial kingdom because they were baptized after their death.

I like to think of myself as a pretty orthodox Mormon. However, I don't buy into the conventional LDS notion that different kingdoms = eternal separation. Yes, we are told that the purified earth will someday be a home for the Celestial. And yes, we are also told that people who attain different levels of glory will enjoy different degrees of intimacy with the Father and the Son. However, a close reading of 1 Corinthians 15 seems to indicate (at least, to me) that the difference between "Celestial" and "Terrestrial" is a difference in the bodies with which people resurrect; not necessarily in the physical locations where those resurrected beings reside. God's ability to send angels from His domain into our own suggests to me that in the eternities, time and space need not be barriers to companionship. (You want to go see your daughter? Just think it, and suddenly, you're there!) (That's not necessarily doctrine, but I don't think it's inherently false doctrine, either.)

As far as I can remember, nothing in the temple sealing ceremony promises physical proximity between family members. "Families can be together forever" is a nice catchphrase, but I think it barely scratches the surface of what the temple sealing really is.

This seems in just since if that is the case because people living good lives are denied entry for not being members of the church. Yet if that is the case why wouldn't people just live however they pleased, smoking, drinking, living a life of sin but still get to the celestial kingdom because someone baptized them after they died.

Temple ordinances aren't a "get into Heaven free" pass. They are merely the last piece to a puzzle of personal development and progression that includes learning, repentance, obedience, love, and subjection to God. The temple liturgy won't get you Celestialized if the other pieces of the puzzle aren't there.

We have other questions but all are basically along this line. We would really love to go to church and walk out three hours later feeling uplifted, inspired and spiritually whole. We wish there was a focus on the unconditional love of God because there is no love when it's conditional. We wish we could have a lot of lesson time about the miraculous healings that Jesus performed and instructed his followers to perform also. And we wish most of all that the concentration of our church teachings was in how to live the fullness of joy not simply endure to the end. In other words, learning to live and not simply preparing to die.

Be the change you seek, Sarah. Other people in your ward are watching you. You can pretty much count on that.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Just_A_Guy

[Just_A_Guy]

One other suggestion:

My experience is that people at Church will put up with some of my boat-rocking if they already know through personal experience that I love them, revere God, honor the prophet, and respect the Church.

Proceed slowly. :)

[annewandering]

BE happy and show it. Share your testimony of the HAPPINESS the gospel brings. Speak up in class and emphasize the JOY of the gospel.

Often we get to thinking of all the dark things and it brings us down and it brings everyone else down too. Perhaps this is what has happened in your ward. The great thing is one person being happy and joyful can change it back to light. Perhaps God put you there to be a joyful light. Sounds like they have had plenty of the downer side of life. Time for some happiness for all of you.

Be an example to your kids and they will figure it out. Might take awhile but hey it does for all of us to really get it if we even manage during this mortal existence.

Edited July 19, 2012 by annewandering

[Heber13]

There is a great talk by Pres Monson from April 2009 titled Be of Good Cheer.

I highly recommend it!

The church is a church of love, not a church of fear.

[Dravin]

There is a great talk by Pres Monson from April 2009 titled Be of Good Cheer.

I highly recommend it!

The church is a church of love, not a church of fear.

Handy dandy link: Be of Good Cheer - general-conference

[SisterSarah]

Thanks everyone. What I like about forums like this is that it helps to have someone else put it in perspective.

I will definitely look up the talk by President Monson.

I know when I think about it, we may be being a little selfish. We loved the closeness and friendships that we had in our first Ward, and we just related so well to everyone. I think we just miss.

We also need to think about our feelings of the desire to go to church to be inspired and uplifted by others; and in so doing we are missing the opportunity to offer inspiration to others, thus enjoying the blessings of giving and receiving.

Things do happen for a reason and it is no accident that we accepted this move and wound up in this Ward.

Thanks again for the great responses.

Sarah.