Why would anyone object to the idea that Jesus was married?

[Bensalem]

Protestants and most Catholics would be loathe to think that the incarnate God of the universe would marry a mortal. Even though he was fully human, he was also God.

Just look to the controversy caused by the movie: The Last Temptation of Christ, to understand how difficult this idea is for us.

I guess I'm old world catholic in this regard.

[Bensalem]

I find it quite obvious that he is married.

- Is he our perfect example?

- Is he divine?

- Most importantly: Is he exalted?

What i'm thinking is, can you be an exalted divine being without being married?

So why didn't he example it openly?

And yes we can be exalted and divine without being married.

Eternal marriage is the highest glory, but that could come for Jesus at the time of His second coming when the union of Christ and Church is fulfilled.

[Bensalem]

We have a scripture that says:

D&C 131: 1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it

[And]

D&C 132 is one of our primary scriptures relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant. Verse 7 of D&C 132 does not mention marriage specifically but the verse is in the context of marriage.

7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, [of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred),] are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

Now, this verse has a large and confusing parenthetical insertion that if we take out we could read this verse like this

7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, … are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

If what I have done is not misleading then we can ask, if covenants (the first one mentioned) are of no efficacy, virtue or force IN and AFTER the resurrection, then when are they efficacious? The only thing left is BEFORE. That is to say a person has to complete the covenant of marriage before they are resurrected. And we are still in compliance with Matthew 22:30

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

So, now we make an inference and say that Christ must be married. As far as I know it is not doctrinal. As Mormons we can look forward to further light and knowledge on the subject in the due time of the Lord. But I think we can agree that Christ is and always has been in full compliance with all of God the Father’s commandments.

Now at least I understand how an earthly marriage was justified by some in the LDS church. But this explanation also provides another route for Christ's marriage where a human wife is unnecessary. Namely, through the Holy Spirit of promise.

The promise of a wife could have been made and sealed to Jesus on earth by the Holy Ghost; it may even have been consummated (made real) in a more celestial way. In other words, his wife (also promised to him in premorality) could have manifested herself to him on earth through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Bensalem

[Gramajane]

Ok, I found the original post, and read a LITTLE of the mega others. I will hopefully not be thought too rude to just jump in as I believe I have some info that might be interesting. :)

--- We studied some with Messanic Jews and also from Jewish teachings, and while I understand that the church has not come out with any word on this (it isn't necessary to our salvation)

--- that it seems that for a man to be taken seriously, or called a Rabbi (as Jesus was) that he had to be married to at least one wife.

--- that Jewish laws were that after the death of a family member, that the women were not to come out of the house until the husband or patriarch called her to come out, as Jesus did with Mary.

--- that there are also many things that are not said in the bible, and even in one place in the bible it says that so much happened that it couldn't all be written about.

--- Unfortunately I have found some people mistakenly believe that if it isn't in the Bible that it didn't happen, though in the red letters for everything Jesus is said to have said in one Bible edition I had, that could all be read aloud in about 1/2 an hour-- it sure seemed silly to think that was all he said!!

--- That I had one girl express offense that I had a picture of Jesus with some white material sheltering his head, a little like a hoodie-- and she insisted that Jesus never wore anything like that. I suppose she had never seen a painting of him similar but that is/was something that in that climate they would do to shelter from the hot sun.

--- I feel like a good reason for Jesus to not begin his mission until he was older (30 wasn't it?) was because he did marry and even have children.

--- there are quite a few legends about that Joseph of Armatheia (sp?) who I understand was a merchant, a rich one, also was responsible for getting Mary (and their children) away after Jesus death, and that they went to Scotland. (read the story about the stone pillar that was made into a special throne that was used for their kings in Scotland and then taken to England- that was supposed to be the same one from the OT- - interesting but not essential) --- also that Jesus was said to have hair a color that was like the hazelnut (dark auburn?) and that his descendants often had that hair color or a similar shade of red-- again fun but NOT important!

--- What is important is that we seek to find what God does want us to know/do and that we seek the confirmation of the Holy Spirit for the truth of these things and then that we ACT to obey what we feel is right. Then that we continue in the path, (repenting as we discover we mess up) and endure to the end! God bless us all in all of that!

[Gramajane]

I found the scripture for you John 21:25

25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

[Anddenex]

That is probably the best justification for an earthly marriage I have seen. Although the wording of your last sentence is confusing; Jesus was our Lord, and the bible says there was nothing attractive about him (maybe being single at 30 was one of them).

My last statement is regarding this verse of scripture, Luke 2: 52:

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. (New Testament, Luke, Chapter 2)

Me personally, I have a hard time seeing the Lord gain the favour of men, especially in this time period, without being married. Marriage provided a social status among men, especially within the Jewish culture.

Within a Patriarchal society, marriage provided more than what it does now, and he being single at 30 reminds me of Brigham Young's words, "Single men over 28 are a menace to society (This is more of humor than reality)." So I have a hard time believing he was single, but then again, in your other post you provide a valuable point that marriage may have been trivial to His higher calling.

These are reasons why I would believe he was married verse single.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Anddenex

[bytor2112]

And yes we can be exalted and divine without being married.

Scripture support?

[AnthonyB]

During his cruxifiction he took the time to ask John to look after his mum, if he was married shouldn't he have made the same request for his wife (or wives, hey this is an LDS forum)?

Quick question for the LDS folk, was Jesus part of the Godhead before he came to earth? If he was then his mortal probabtion surely must have already occurred.

[jerome1232]

During his cruxifiction he took the time to ask John to look after his mum, if he was married shouldn't he have made the same request for his wife (or wives, hey this is an LDS forum)?

That is a good point I think

Quick question for the LDS folk, was Jesus part of the Godhead before he came to earth? If he was then his mortal probation surely must have already occurred.

Yes and no. We believe that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament and that he didn't have a physical body until his birth in NT times.

[AnthonyB]

jerome,

Thanks for the reply.

So mortal probation isn't absolutely necessary for becoming divine (the Holy Spirt is part of the Godhead but still a spirit being.)? (Despite have been on this forum for some time, it is the LDS doctrine that confuses me the most. Mortal probation is part of progressing but the three members of the current Godhead don't seem to line up very well with it. Scripture says nothing of the Father's probation, Jesus was part of the Godhead before he was mortal and the Holy Spirit has never had a mortal probation but is part of the Godhead)

Edited July 22, 2012 by AnthonyB

[JayJ]

I definitely believe that Jesus was married!

The Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus had to be baptized according to the Law in order to fulfill all righteousness. We also learn that He was ordained a High Priest after the Order of Melchizedek. In order for Christ to fulfill all righteousness He must enter into all the saving ordinances/covenants pertaining to this life which includes the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage.

Furthermore, how often has the Lord referred to Himself as the Bridegroom and Israel as a bride - not to mention an adulterous (or a backsliding and idolatrous) bride.

Not only was Christ married, but He entered into the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage as required by the Law. If He failed to do this He would not have been perfect which also implies being ritualistically clean and perfect.

[Bensalem]

Scripture support?

Scripture understanding: Taking "divine" to mean, "of or like God or a god", I believe a single man in the priesthood is exalted (meaning glorified) like God and Christ, who are priests.

[Bensalem]

My last statement is regarding this verse of scripture, Luke 2: 52:

Me personally, I have a hard time seeing the Lord gain the favour of men, especially in this time period, without being married. Marriage provided a social status among men, especially within the Jewish culture.

Within a Patriarchal society, marriage provided more than what it does now, and he being single at 30 reminds me of Brigham Young's words, "Single men over 28 are a menace to society (This is more of humor than reality)." So I have a hard time believing he was single, but then again, in your other post you provide a valuable point that marriage may have been trivial to His higher calling.

These are reasons why I would believe he was married verse single.

I'm thinking of Isaiah 53:3

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

I was 28 plus a month when I got married, so I was a menace for only 30 days.

[Anddenex]

jerome,

Thanks for the reply.

So mortal probation isn't absolutely necessary for becoming divine (the Holy Spirt is part of the Godhead but still a spirit being.)? (Despite have been on this forum for some time, it is the LDS doctrine that confuses me the most. Mortal probation is part of progressing but the three members of the current Godhead don't seem to line up very well with it. Scripture says nothing of the Father's probation, Jesus was part of the Godhead before he was mortal and the Holy Spirit has never had a mortal probation but is part of the Godhead)

Despite have been on this forum for some time, it is the LDS doctrine that confuses me the most.

As a Christian, and one who believes in the Trinity, a being that is ONE, but separate, prays to himself, at a baptism speaks from Heaven calling himself his son and is pleased in himself, and a dove appears for the Holy Ghost. Yet, you write, LDS doctrines confuse you the most?

If truth was contingent upon the lack of confusion, then there would be no religion on this earth that would be considered true. We are taught regarding mysteries of heaven, and these mysteries are confusing, or may appear confusing because of our limited knowledge.

This also is dependent on where you get your knowledge from and how you go about obtaining knowledge. It would be similar to a sincere seeker of truth wanting to learn about Jesus, during Jesus's lifetime, and actually going to the Pharisees. The knowledge gained by the Pharisees, verses the knowledge gained by learning from Christ or one of his disciples will be different. Our doctrine may be the most confusing to you because of how you originally were taught regarding our doctrine verses actually seeking correct sources.

So mortal probation isn't absolutely necessary for becoming divine (the Holy Spirt is part of the Godhead but still a spirit being.)?

This is a question that is two fold:

1st - We are all the literal spiritual offspring of deity, our Father in Heaven. This automatically specifies a characteristic of divinity within us all before our mortal probation.

2nd - Mortal probabtion is an opportunity for experience, and for God to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of all the sons and daughters of God. Immortality given to all who kept their first estate, eternal life, or exhaltation, is provided to those who accept Christ and believe in him (Article of Faith #3).

3rd - There was no doubt, from our Father in Heaven, regarding the divinity of Christ before his earthly probabtion, and Christ's divinity while he was his, the Fathers, only begotten Son in the flesh.

4th - All of God's knowledge, has not been revealed to his children. It would be nice to know everything, while other tenets we accept in faith, even though a doctrine may not be as clear as other doctrines. However, are they confusing or unclear due to our own faith and knowledge, or due to the actual teachings provided by God?

[Bensalem]

During his cruxifiction he took the time to ask John to look after his mum, if he was married shouldn't he have made the same request for his wife (or wives, hey this is an LDS forum)?

Quick question for the LDS folk, was Jesus part of the Godhead before he came to earth? If he was then his mortal probabtion surely must have already occurred.

In premortality we were all the spirit children of God just like our brother Jesus, except he was chosen from the begining to be our Savior, Lord, and the only begotten Son. So his special status made him part of the Godhead. This doesn't mean that he had a mortal probation before this one.

John said, "God is Spirit". So the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost can still be the Godhead in spirit form.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Bensalem

[Anddenex]

I'm thinking of Isaiah 53:3

I was 28 plus a month when I got married, so I was a menace for only 30 days.

I think of this verse as well, but not according to his marital status, but according to his life as the son of God.

A person is still able to be married, and still be despised by men. Likewise, a person is still able to be despised and be single.

[volgadon]

I am not sure either as to why anyone would object to Jesus being married. In the culture he lived in, men were married by the age of 18 - 20. The Lord was 30 when he began his ministry. It would make more sense if he grew in favor of men and the Lord that he was married at or around a similar age.

That is probably the best justification for an earthly marriage I have seen. Although the wording of your last sentence is confusing; Jesus was our Lord, and the bible says there was nothing attractive about him (maybe being single at 30 was one of them).

Not really a good justification, as men in Christ's day tended not to marry before their mid to late 30s.

[Bensalem]

So mortal probation isn't absolutely necessary for becoming divine (the Holy Spirt is part of the Godhead but still a spirit being.)? (Despite have been on this forum for some time, it is the LDS doctrine that confuses me the most. Mortal probation is part of progressing but the three members of the current Godhead don't seem to line up very well with it. Scripture says nothing of the Father's probation, Jesus was part of the Godhead before he was mortal and the Holy Spirit has never had a mortal probation but is part of the Godhead)

LDS doctrine does shed some light on this topic. We believe God the Father did go through an earthly probation, just not on this earth. Everyone else started as spirits (angles or intelligences) in premortality. We come here to gain a body for the resurrection.

Another LDS doctrine that can help with one's understanding of this phenomena is the three kingdoms of heaven. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are active and present in each of these three kingdoms (Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial) to varying degrees.

Too much to articulate here. Hope you look into it.

[Bensalem]

Not really a good justification, as men in Christ's day tended not to marry before their mid to late 30s.

You and 'Anddenex' must have different sources. Let me know how the discrepancy works out.

[volgadon]

Ok, I found the original post, and read a LITTLE of the mega others. I will hopefully not be thought too rude to just jump in as I believe I have some info that might be interesting. :)

--- We studied some with Messanic Jews and also from Jewish teachings, and while I understand that the church has not come out with any word on this (it isn't necessary to our salvation)

--- that it seems that for a man to be taken seriously, or called a Rabbi (as Jesus was) that he had to be married to at least one wife.

Not true.

Rabbi was a honorific like mister, or sir, not a religious position, until several generations after Jesus' crucifixion. There was also no requirement to be married. Ben Azzai, one of the most beloved preachers and sages of early Judaism, chose to remain unmarried, because it would distract him from his studies. Nearer to Jesus' time, there were also the Essenes. The more one looks into it, the harder it is to support the assertion that Jesus HAD to be married. From the POV of his time and culture, that is.

[volgadon]

You and 'Anddenex' must have different sources. Let me know how the discrepancy works out.

I've seen the sources that contribute to his understand. I don't know if he is getting it from primary, secondary, or tertiary sources. One of the references, I'm sure, is the ideal found in Sayings of the Fathers. The sources simply don't support the assertion. There is good evidence even from near-contemporaries of Jesus, such as Josephus, showing a late marriage age.

[Seminarysnoozer]

The historical reality of Christianity, one of self-sacrifice and austere, even celibate, living in service to God, reflects more the nature of Christ. He taught that leaving all earthly connections to go out and preach the Word was an appropriate and honorable venture. This also happens to match perfectly with what LDS missionaries go off and do before finding a bride for the eternities.

I like to believe that Christ remained single and after his death continued to work toward perfecting His bride, the Church.

I think the latter-day revelations, which brought us the covenant of eternal marriage in the mid-1800's, completes the historical reality of God's timeline in progression and gives our claim of the restoration and the LDS Church itself more validity.

In other words, Christ and His Church (the body of Christ) are progressing together.

(to be continued)

I think this is a false perception of the mission of Christ. He gathered and as missionaries do, they bring in the harvest. Christ gave so many parables about gathering in the lost, the lost sheep , the lost coin, the prodigal son etc. The gospel is one of becoming more linked and covenanted to others. Christ's final wish is that we all be one with Him as He is one with God. That, seems like nothing at all related to celibacy. When Christ "leaves all Earthly connections" it is with the purpose of bringing back the lost back to the fold so that they are also connected. The found don't need to be found, just the lost. But if the found were left behind and lost then they would also need to be found again. Of course we are supposed to disconnect from carnal things, but families are eternal and covenants are eternal. And the value of one soul is eternal.

Keep in mind that metaphors are metaphors, they are not intended to be actual. The church represented as the bride of Christ is purely metaphoric just as much as women are made from ribs.

[Bensalem]

I've seen the sources that contribute to his understand. I don't know if he is getting it from primary, secondary, or tertiary sources. One of the references, I'm sure, is the ideal found in Sayings of the Fathers. The sources simply don't support the assertion. There is good evidence even from near-contemporaries of Jesus, such as Josephus, showing a late marriage age.

Thanks. This plus the correction you made about Rabbis not being required to marry makes my assertion that Jesus did not take an earthly wife more plausible.

[Bensalem]

I think this is a false perception of the mission of Christ. He gathered and as missionaries do, they bring in the harvest. Christ gave so many parables about gathering in the lost, the lost sheep , the lost coin, the prodigal son etc. The gospel is one of becoming more linked and covenanted to others. Christ's final wish is that we all be one with Him as He is one with God. That, seems like nothing at all related to celibacy. When Christ "leaves all Earthly connections" it is with the purpose of bringing back the lost back to the fold so that they are also connected. The found don't need to be found, just the lost. But if the found were left behind and lost then they would also need to be found again. Of course we are supposed to disconnect from carnal things, but families are eternal and covenants are eternal. And the value of one soul is eternal.

Keep in mind that metaphors are metaphors, they are not intended to be actual. The church represented as the bride of Christ is purely metaphoric just as much as women are made from ribs.

Yes, but the history I posted remains the reality. Early Christianity was not focused on marriage for Christ's servants and LDS missionaries put off earthly marriage in favor of serving God. The restoration brought eternal marriage into the gospel light.

All I am saying is that the progression of the Christian church paralleled the example of Christ. Marriage was not part of His first mission; service was.

[bytor2112]

Scripture understanding: Taking "divine" to mean, "of or like God or a god", I believe a single man in the priesthood is exalted (meaning glorified) like God and Christ, who are priests.

What scripture are you understanding? A single man or woman cannot become Exalted.....they cannot become like God (Heavenly Father) or Christ.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your posts, but you seem to co-opt LDS terminology and attach your own definitions/meanings and in so doing change the meaning from what Latter Day Saints believe to some variant that you believe.