Guest Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Hello friends of other faiths. :) There's something I'd like to understand better about the "mainstream Christian" and their belief in the nature of God. There are a few questions wrapped into this, so I hope I can express myself well and come across in the spirit I intend; not to criticize or argue, but to better understand. I have read here that you (general "you", being Christians who aren't LDS) believe that God is essentially of a different species than us. If I understand it correctly, that is part of what is offensive about the LDS doctrine that we might progress to be more like Him. Even more offensive seems to be the notion that Jesus and Satan are brothers. And yet I hear Christians refer to Heavenly Father, and pray to Heavenly Father sometimes. Not as often as "Lord" or "God", but fairly often. How can we have a Father who is of a different species than we are? As far as the question of Satan and Jesus' brotherhood. . . do you believe that God created everyone? If He created all of us, why is there such a recoiling to the logical conclusion that, since He created Jesus and Satan, they would be brothers? Or did He not create Satan? Where did Satan come from? I thought that maybe it's an issue of Satan (I hate even typing that name so often) being yet another species, but if we are different and still His children, how is it not the same? Is it also an offensive idea that Jesus would be our older brother, even though He is called the Son of God, and we call God our Father? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 As far as the question of Satan and Jesus' brotherhood. . . do you believe that God created everyone? If He created all of us, why is there such a recoiling to the logical conclusion that, since He created Jesus and Satan, they would be brothers?A mainstream Christian won't agree that God created Jesus. Jesus, as God, is eternal and has no beginning or creation. Since they don't accept your premise the rest of your logical chain has issues from their perspective.And yet I hear Christians refer to Heavenly Father, and pray to Heavenly Father sometimes. Not as often as "Lord" or "God", but fairly often. How can we have a Father who is of a different species than we are? How many people call their pets their children? If your dog is your child than it follows that in some sense you are it's parent. You may object that such clearly isn't a statement of biology, but to a mainstream Christian calling God Heavenly Father isn't a statement of biological relationship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 (edited) People can call pets their children, but that doesn't make them so. Does that mean that we are merely "pets" to God? Why is Jesus called the Son of God? Edited September 18, 2012 by Eowyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 People can call pets their children, but that doesn't make them so. Does that mean that we are merely "pets" to God?If your not willing to let go that children and parent can only describe a biological relationship (such as it were) you're going to be stuck at square one. You don't have to accept that such is the nature of the relationship as far as your own personal beliefs go but insisting, "You can't call him Father unless it means a 'biological' relationship." is akin to insisting, "You can't call him Jesus unless it means the Trinitarian understanding of Jesus." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 I can accept that as the source of their reasoning, if that's what the source is, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Hello friends of other faiths. :) There's something I'd like to understand better about the "mainstream Christian" and their belief in the nature of God. There are a few questions wrapped into this, so I hope I can express myself well and come across in the spirit I intend; not to criticize or argue, but to better understand.I have read here that you (general "you", being Christians who aren't LDS) believe that God is essentially of a different species than us. If I understand it correctly, that is part of what is offensive about the LDS doctrine that we might progress to be more like Him. Even more offensive seems to be the notion that Jesus and Satan are brothers. And yet I hear Christians refer to Heavenly Father, and pray to Heavenly Father sometimes. Not as often as "Lord" or "God", but fairly often. How can we have a Father who is of a different species than we are? As far as the question of Satan and Jesus' brotherhood. . . do you believe that God created everyone? If He created all of us, why is there such a recoiling to the logical conclusion that, since He created Jesus and Satan, they would be brothers? Or did He not create Satan? Where did Satan come from? I thought that maybe it's an issue of Satan (I hate even typing that name so often) being yet another species, but if we are different and still His children, how is it not the same? Is it also an offensive idea that Jesus would be our older brother, even though He is called the Son of God, and we call God our Father?This goes back to the difference between Trinitarian understanding and the Godhead.In Trinitarian (Roman Catholic) thought:#1.) God, the Father, that person in the Trinity, is who is referred to as Heavenly Father. He is Our Father because He is our Creator - the Father of Creation.#2.) Heavenly Father did not create Jesus. Jesus is God - ONE in substance with the Father.#3.) Satan was created by God. He cannot have been the brother of Jesus because Jesus is God. Satan is an angel. Angels are God's creations that are pure spirit - no mortal bodies. Therefore, they are also a different species than man. Satan is the same species as Michael and Gabriel. Satan is a fallen angel as he rebelled against God. He is not our brother because the term brother is a social/heirarchical relationship and he has not been adopted into the family of Heaven.#4.) It is not offensive to call Jesus our Brother as long as we only use the term as a juxtaposition of his subordination to the Father and not as an indication of our being elevated as His equal. It is more appropriate to refer to ourselves as Brothers and Sisters in Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 I can accept that as the source of their reasoning, if that's what the source is, then.Father, Brother - those terms are used in the Bible to describe the heirarchical relationship between the Persons in the Trinity. It is not at all anything to do with biology. The only reason it is used is because it is the form of relationship in the human social structure that man can understand that is closest in describing God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Anatess explains it well. We believe that God created matter itself, and that humanity is the height of his creation--so much so that he placed his image within us. In that sense, we are more than "pets"--we are his children. I suppose a better analogy than pet would be the artist who creates a masterpiece--except that we are living beings with immortal souls. I'd even suggest that our Heavenly Father is more a father to us than our earthly fathers are. God created every fiber of my being, and numbers the hairs on my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Thanks guys, this helps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveVH Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 How can we have a Father who is of a different species than we are?We are sons and daughters God through adoption. Galations 4:5-7"To redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God." Ephesians 1:5"He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will..." So we are not sons and daughters by nature. There are qualifications which have to be met in order to be a son or daughter of God. Some examples of what qualifies us as his children:Romans 8:14 - "because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."Revelation 21:7 - "He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son." As far as the question of Satan and Jesus' brotherhood. . . do you believe that God created everyone? If He created all of us, why is there such a recoiling to the logical conclusion that, since He created Jesus and Satan, they would be brothers?We do not believe that Jesus was created. He is the Creator, not the created. All things and all beings were created by God; The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one divine Being who we call God. Everything else (including satan) are creatures. And satan is not the same "species", if you will, as either God or man. He is an angel.Or did He not create Satan? Where did Satan come from? I thought that maybe it's an issue of Satan (I hate even typing that name so often) being yet another species, but if we are different and still His children, how is it not the same? Is it also an offensive idea that Jesus would be our older brother, even though He is called the Son of God, and we call God our Father?Christ is different as I have pointed out above. He was "begotten", not created. He is the only begotten Son of God. We become Christ's brothers and sisters, again, through adoption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveVH Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Father, Brother - those terms are used in the Bible to describe the heirarchical relationship between the Persons in the Trinity. It is not at all anything to do with biology. The only reason it is used is because it is the form of relationship in the human social structure that man can understand that is closest in describing God.Rather than describing a hierarchical relationship, Father and Son are terms describing a familial relationship. We are invited to become a part of this familial relationship. We can call God our Father. We can also call God our brother. We are called ulitmately to participate in the divine family of Father, Son and Holy Spirit as adopted sons and daughters of God. That is why the human family is the greatest image of God. God, in his essence, is a family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misshalfway Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Anatess explains it well. We believe that God created matter itself, and that humanity is the height of his creation--so much so that he placed his image within us. In that sense, we are more than "pets"--we are his children. I suppose a better analogy than pet would be the artist who creates a masterpiece--except that we are living beings with immortal souls. I'd even suggest that our Heavenly Father is more a father to us than our earthly fathers are. God created every fiber of my being, and numbers the hairs on my head.Would you permit me a question about this?It seems to me that that "creation" or "creating" happens on two fronts. The first like what you describe as an artist organizing substance into something beautiful, and the second like how two parents create a new child.As you know, in LDS theology, we believe that God uses both methods.....the first for the earth and the second for his spirit children. Albeit a higher process than we know as humans. It appears God created the bodies for adam and eve much like he created the earth. So....it appears we've definitely got crossover in our understandings of things.Is it offensive or "wrong" for Christians to view God as a literal father of his children? I guess my naivety about mainstream Christian paradigm is confused about why it wouldn't make sense that the way God creates humans is any different than the way we create humans. I'm assuming is the sex thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 The short answer is YES, it offends our sensibilities. Traditionalists believe God is distinct from his creation--that he alone is eternal. We do not believe matter is eternal, and that God fashioned it. Rather, he created matter. So, while his image is in us (again, distinguishing us from "pets"), we are not what God is. Nothing in creation is. Since God is one, we do not believe in a Mother God, so how would God literally birth us? The idea that he might engage one of his created beings strikes us as, well...offensive. LDS theology on this is not bizarre to me. It starts with matter being eternal, and God being the greatest being, perhaps the greatest species. From that, it's not hard for me to imagine he would want children like himself. So, I am not offended. However, I would imagine most Christians would not be quick to understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misshalfway Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 However, I would imagine most Christians would not be quick to understand.As I am not quick to understand either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norah63 Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 To me a clear understanding of Scripture would be the diffrence between genesis chapter 1 and chapter 2. One is the creation, before it was here. 2 was to form and fashion our bodies. That has never seemed complicated. Is that not pre-mortal explained? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 My understanding of Genesis 1 & 2 is that the first chapter gives us an overview of creation, while the second offers something of a recap, with a refined focus on the creation of humanity. Apparently this is a common device in Hebrew literature, though I do not pretend to have studied literary styles and patterns with any kind of depth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norah63 Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 The same idea of creation before actually forming, leads me to believe we can be God's creation, before we accept to be His children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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