Insights on Miscarried Babies

[Seminarysnoozer]

Anyway, you could add complexity to the issues by asking when does the spirit become permanently joined with the body. .

I appreciate your comment. I have never considered that there could be a degree of attachment of the spirit with the body. I suppose that could make possible a body that could be alive without a spirit, at least a partially attached spirit, which is something I have already wondered about such as possibly all the "bodies" without spirits that may have existed before Adam and Eve, the first "man" (ie - being with a spirit attached to their body). This would be a good explanation for prehistoric man (or pre-Genesis man, so-to-speak) if that were possible.

I was always taught that the permanently joined spirit to body occurs at the resurrection with a perfected body. I thought that question had already been answered by modern revelation.

[Wingnut]

It's been mentioned in this thread already that Christ Himself separated His spirit from His body when He appeared to Nephi the night before He was born -- while His body was still in Mary's womb.

It's also been mentioned in this thread that some of the female posters themselves have had distinct feelings of spirits coming and going while they were pregnant. I haven't had that experience, though I've been pregnant twice. I don't doubt a woman's intuition, though.

[Seminarysnoozer]

It's been mentioned in this thread already that Christ Himself separated His spirit from His body when He appeared to Nephi the night before He was born -- while His body was still in Mary's womb.

It's also been mentioned in this thread that some of the female posters themselves have had distinct feelings of spirits coming and going while they were pregnant. I haven't had that experience, though I've been pregnant twice. I don't doubt a woman's intuition, though.

Can this happen outside the womb, spirit separates from the body while the body continues to live and the spirit returns without any resulting problems to the body? In other words, can a body stay alive without the spirit? Some would strongly disagree with that possibility, even when the body is in the womb but especially after the body is on it's own, outside the womb.

[brianh]

Sorry to hear about your loss. My wife and I lost a child of SIDS at 10 weeks old. I hope this is what you are looking for.

"After the resurrection, a child’s body will grow to match the stature of the spirit.

Would we be satisfied to see the children we bury in their infancy remain as children only, throughout the countless ages of eternity? No! Neither would the spirits that did possess the tabernacles of our children be satisfied to remain in that condition. But we know our children will not be compelled to remain as a child in stature always, for it was revealed from God, the fountain of truth, through Joseph Smith the prophet, in this dispensation, that in the resurrection of the dead the child that was buried in its infancy will come up in the form of the child that it was when it was laid down; then it will begin to develop. From the day of the resurrection, the body will develop until it reaches the full measure of the stature of its spirit, whether it be male or female. If the spirit possessed the intelligence of God and the aspirations of mortal souls, it could not be satisfied with anything less than this. You will remember we are told that the spirit of Jesus Christ visited one of the ancient prophets and revealed himself to him, and he declared his identity, that he was the same Son of God that was to come in the meridian of time. He said he would appear in the flesh just as he appeared to that prophet [see Ether 3:9, 16–17]. He was not an infant; he was a grown, developed spirit; possessing the form of man and the form of God, the same form as when he came and took upon him a tabernacle and developed it to the full stature of his spirit. 5

Every spirit that comes to this earth to take upon it a tabernacle is a son or a daughter of God, and possesses all the intelligence and all the attributes that any son or daughter can enjoy, either in the spirit world, or in this world, except that in the spirit, and separated from the body, they lacked just the tabernacle of being like God the Father. It is said that God is a spirit, and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth [see John 4:24]. But he is a spirit possessing the tabernacle of flesh and bones, as tangible as a man’s and therefore to be like God and Jesus all men must have a body. It matters not whether these tabernacles mature in this world, or have to wait and mature in the world to come, according to the word of the Prophet Joseph Smith, the body will develop, either in time or in eternity, to the full stature of the spirit, and when the mother is deprived of the pleasure and joy of rearing her babe to manhood or to womanhood in this life, through the hand of death, that privilege will be renewed to her hereafter, and she will enjoy it to a fuller fruition than it would be possible for her to do here. When she does it there, it will be with the certain knowledge that the results will be without failure; whereas here, the results are unknown until after we have passed the test. 6

The spirits of our children are immortal before they come to us, and their spirits, after bodily death, are like they were before they came. They are as they would have appeared if they had lived in the flesh, to grow to maturity, or to develop their physical bodies to the full stature of their spirits. If you see one of your children that has passed away it may appear to you in the form in which you would recognize it, the form of childhood; but if it came to you as a messenger bearing some important truth, it would perhaps come as the spirit of Bishop Edward Hunter’s son (who died when a little child) came to him, in the stature of full-grown manhood, and revealed himself to his father, and said: “I am your son.”

Bishop Hunter did not understand it. He went to my father and said: “Hyrum, what does that mean? I buried my son when he was only a little boy, but he has come to me as a full-grown man—a noble, glorious, young man, and declared himself my son. What does it mean?”

Father (Hyrum Smith, the Patriarch) told him that the Spirit of Jesus Christ was full-grown before he was born into the world; and so our children were full-grown and possessed their full stature in the spirit, before they entered mortality, the same stature that they will possess after they have passed away from mortality, and as they will also appear after the resurrection, when they shall have completed their mission.

Joseph Smith taught the doctrine that the infant child that was laid away in death would come up in the resurrection as a child; and, pointing to the mother of a lifeless child, he said to her: “You will have the joy, the pleasure, and satisfaction of nurturing this child, after its resurrection, until it reaches the full stature of its spirit.” There is restitution, there is growth, there is development, after the resurrection from death. I love this truth. It speaks volumes of happiness, of joy and gratitude to my soul. Thank the Lord he has revealed these principles to us." (see Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 455–56).

[missionary0204]

Brianh, love the quote! I was going to post that one but couldn't remember who said it.

There have been multiple referrences to Christ's spirit leaving his body and visiting Nephi on the night of his birth. My first month in the mission field, I read 3 Nephi 1 and thought that I had learned an amazing truth about the body and the spirit and with additional study, I quickly corrected my first impression.

12 And it came to pass that he cried mightily unto the Lord all that day; and behold, the voice of the Lord came unto him, saying:

13 Lift up your head and be of good cheer; for behold, the time is at hand, and on this night shall the sign be given, and on the morrow come I into the world, to show unto the world that I will fulfil all that which I have caused to be spoken by the mouth of my holy prophets.

I went on to study the topic of Divine Investiture of Authority and learned a great deal on the subject. There are many cases where the Lord spoke as if he was God the Father. The Holy Ghost has also spoken as if he was God the Father or Jesus Christ. This does not mean that Jesus left his body to go and speak to Nephi. Please read the "The Father and the Son" found in the book Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith.

We also learn in James chapter two that the body without the spirit is dead. Adam's body was completely lifeless until the Lord breathed into his nostrels the breath of life or in other words, until he placed a spirit into the body to give it life. Jesus could not die until he willed it or gave up the ghost.

There is no definitive timeframe, as noted in many replies, as to the time the spirit enters the body, but I am inclined to believe that the spirit enters the body early if not at conception. There have been premature babies that lived having been born less than 22 weeks from conception and others younger than that that were alive but could not live because the body was not developed.

Another thought I have is that the Gospel Essentials manual says that God chooses the time and place for our birth on earth. I have also seen similar statements from many of the former prophets. If this is true, I would think that the spirit does not necessarily have a choice to decline a body to take another. Do not forget that life is a test. We do not get to choose how we want to curve the test.

I have an inlaw who is severely handicapped. Some would refer to him as a vegitable. He can move his arms a little and cry. At the age of 18, his parents decided to go and get his Patriarchal Blessing. The young man was told that he assisted in the escorting of Lucifer when he was cast out of Heaven and that his condition was to protect him from Satan who greatly desires to have him. I still have trouble accepting this, but I was blown away. The Patriarch is one of the greatest men I have ever known. I merely share this and food for thought and nothing more.

My final thought is that during the Millennial Reign, resurrected beings will assist mankind on the earth in completing or correcting temple work for all spirits before their resurrection. We do not know if miscarried/infant babies who have died will have their work done at that time. We also do not know if when Satan is loosed for a season, if those children will be tried and tested in some form or fassion at that time. I cannot see the veil being fully lifted until our testing period is nearing completion.

[Seminarysnoozer]

We also do not know if when Satan is loosed for a season, if those children will be tried and tested in some form or fassion at that time. I cannot see the veil being fully lifted until our testing period is nearing completion.

We have been told they qualify for the Celestial Kingdom. So, tell us what test you think they still need to pass or potentially fail which would disqualify them from their designated Celestial state that we have been told will happen. Either it is true that they will go to the Celestial Kingdom or it is not. I don't think it was said, they might go to the Celestial Kingdom.

[missionary0204]

We have been told they qualify for the Celestial Kingdom. So, tell us what test you think they still need to pass or potentially fail which would disqualify them from their designated Celestial state that we have been told will happen. Either it is true that they will go to the Celestial Kingdom or it is not. I don't think it was said, they might go to the Celestial Kingdom.

Good point! I use these forumns to stretch my understanding and create new insight. Had I dwelt on it longer, I would have probably remembered that. I still wonder if the the being loosed for a short season is the tempting of the mortal children raised during the millennium.

Keep picking away!

[MarginOfError]

Brianh, love the quote! I was going to post that one but couldn't remember who said it.

There have been multiple referrences to Christ's spirit leaving his body and visiting Nephi on the night of his birth. My first month in the mission field, I read 3 Nephi 1 and thought that I had learned an amazing truth about the body and the spirit and with additional study, I quickly corrected my first impression.

12 And it came to pass that he cried mightily unto the Lord all that day; and behold, the voice of the Lord came unto him, saying:

13 Lift up your head and be of good cheer; for behold, the time is at hand, and on this night shall the sign be given, and on the morrow come I into the world, to show unto the world that I will fulfil all that which I have caused to be spoken by the mouth of my holy prophets.

I went on to study the topic of Divine Investiture of Authority and learned a great deal on the subject. There are many cases where the Lord spoke as if he was God the Father. The Holy Ghost has also spoken as if he was God the Father or Jesus Christ. This does not mean that Jesus left his body to go and speak to Nephi. Please read the "The Father and the Son" found in the book Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith.

We also learn in James chapter two that the body without the spirit is dead. Adam's body was completely lifeless until the Lord breathed into his nostrels the breath of life or in other words, until he placed a spirit into the body to give it life. Jesus could not die until he willed it or gave up the ghost.

There is no definitive timeframe, as noted in many replies, as to the time the spirit enters the body, but I am inclined to believe that the spirit enters the body early if not at conception. There have been premature babies that lived having been born less than 22 weeks from conception and others younger than that that were alive but could not live because the body was not developed.

Another thought I have is that the Gospel Essentials manual says that God chooses the time and place for our birth on earth. I have also seen similar statements from many of the former prophets. If this is true, I would think that the spirit does not necessarily have a choice to decline a body to take another. Do not forget that life is a test. We do not get to choose how we want to curve the test.

I have an inlaw who is severely handicapped. Some would refer to him as a vegitable. He can move his arms a little and cry. At the age of 18, his parents decided to go and get his Patriarchal Blessing. The young man was told that he assisted in the escorting of Lucifer when he was cast out of Heaven and that his condition was to protect him from Satan who greatly desires to have him. I still have trouble accepting this, but I was blown away. The Patriarch is one of the greatest men I have ever known. I merely share this and food for thought and nothing more.

My final thought is that during the Millennial Reign, resurrected beings will assist mankind on the earth in completing or correcting temple work for all spirits before their resurrection. We do not know if miscarried/infant babies who have died will have their work done at that time. We also do not know if when Satan is loosed for a season, if those children will be tried and tested in some form or fassion at that time. I cannot see the veil being fully lifted until our testing period is nearing completion.

Which all goes to show that we have a whole lot more conjecture on the topic than we have knowledge.

[BadWolf]

Very little, in my experience, is satisfying about miscarriage... Which is probably equally unsatisfying, I know. But for me, sometimes awful things simply happen. For MYSELF, I know that I've gotten different truths for different losses. But that just because they're true for ME, doesn't mean they're true for everyone. And just because they're true, doesn't make them hurt any less.

For MYSELF... While every spirit receives a body, I know not every body receives a spirit.

For MYSELF... I know that the above isn't true for all miscarriages. I lost a little girl between 6&7mo, who had a very strong spirit. I've lost some early, as well. Different miscarriages have affected me differently, for different reasons. I've lost 2 late, and several early. They're all different. Except for the extremely early ones, but again, that not saying that all early losses are the same.

For MYSELF ...I know that chemical pregnancies, with their (usual cause being) lethal DNA zipperings (acid for blood, no bones, not merely deformities... But truly lethal combinations), are a gift. It's a gift that there is a double redundancy where first the ovum/embryo checks itself (and self destructs if it finds itself zippered wrong), and then the lining of the uterus checks the embryo at implantation... Just in case the self-check option was one of the messed up things. I find them to be a gift myself, because consigning a spirit to an impossibility, is... Wrong. And that as a mum, I'll take the pain of losing, so that my baby's spirit doesn't have the pain of an impossible chance. Each. And. Every. Time. If someone asked me, I would vote to cry and wait, rather than have the spirit of my child suffer.

For myself, having carried a pregnancy that would have killed me (long story), I wonder if that baby's spirit felt the same way? (Conversely, though, I never blame a baby whose mother died to carry it).

My grandmother always said miscarriages were impatient spirits who just wanted to come say hello, but weren't supposed to be born yet. For MYSELF, I've found that to be sometimes true.

For MYSELF, I know that sometimes, I simply won't know why. That ill look for an answer and not find it, or not recognize it when I do find it. I also know that very little else will make me as mad as someone else telling me there is no answer. There's always an answer. I just don't know what it is, yet. When I'm in a better place, I can know its just that person grieving in their own way (when I'm in a not so great place, I'm less charitable towards well intentioned idiots).

Ahem. Which is the reason behind the repeated me statements. Answers from one sometimes translate or resonate, and sometimes they don't. So pleeeease, know Im not telling you what is. Merely my own experience. I know that doesn't mean it's your, or anyone else's, experiences. I expect you'll find your own answers. They may or may not be similar to mine.

As something of a side note: In Japan, there are whole cemeteries for unborn children. I often wish we had that practice, here. There's a depth and subtlety to the pain of losing someone you will never get to meet, but love and cherish with all your heart, that is simply not formerly recognized in our culture.

All my best to you and yours.

[slickvic313]

Because of my experiences and because of what I was taught by the Spirit, I believe each Spirit gets to accept the body being grown for them or not.

I have felt the Spirits of my children prior to birth. One to the point I new how soft-hearted and gentle he was and couldn't believe He could be anything but a She. My mistake... I got a very soft-hearted, gentle boy.

Sunday our Gospel Doctrine teacher brought up something interesting. Christ visited the America's while Mary was pregnant. Think about that. He wasn't tied to that body she was growing. He came and went as annewandering described. I've felt my little ones spirits come and go too.

Remember that in some instances the angel of the Lord is given a divine investiture of authority to speak as the voice of God Himself. Examples are Gen. 22:11–12 and Revelation 22:9,12. This indicates that it is not necessarily true that Christ/Jehovah separated His spirit from His body in order to deliver the message of His impending birth to Nephi.