Why shouldn't I have my name removed?

[applepansy]

Indeed, in the beginning that was the only question, why has God withdrawn and why are my prayers and fasting not being answered? Years of the same old same old have deepened that question to a serious doubt (again, doubt isn't the right word). And I understand the experiences of Jesus inthe garden, Joseph Smith in Liberty Jail, etc. Of note is the relatively short time these individuals had to endure this withdrawal, however. Jesus was a matter of hours, and he full well knew that he was doing what he was supposed to be doing and what was happening HAD to happen. Jospeph Smith was a matter of a few weeks, and while we can't assume he had the same resolute belief that what was happening was supposed to happen, his struggle ended with a major scriptural revelation. It's been over 8 years.

I would like to address the trial of faith. I thought that in the beginning, also, this is just a trial. I had expectations. I knew what was happening wasn't supposed to be happening, that this was a bad thing perpetrated by evil people and happening to a good person. I whole heartedly believed (with all my heart, might, mind and strength) that God could and would fix it. I did have faith in him and in the redemptive power. As time went on, though, I began to recognize the weakness of my faith. I realized that I was failing the test. I realized I must not really have the faith I needed, and as a result I became more resolute and attempted to increase my faith. This was to no avail. What happened to me was to the benefit of the evil people (one of who was a church member) who perpetrated it - they're still benefitting, but am I stil being tried. If it were a trial, didn't the God who who knows and loves me know what the outcome would be and the effects it would have onme and my family? Didn't he see this day? Did he not know when I realized the weakness of my faith and attempted to fix it? I know his time is not my time, but it's been 8 years, and there have been profound - even eternal - effects. I came to realize that if this was a test, it proved it's point - I did lack faith, I admitted so and expressed humility, but apparently the test wasn't over. So was it really a test? The evil people still benefit from the evil they did (the member is actually dead), and will someday have the opportunity to hear the gospel and accept it and end up in the celestial kingdom - but I, if I stay on my current path, will not. Wasn't I the one doing what I was supposed to do? That's how I came to the realization that God really doesn't intervene in our lives. This either was a trial of faith designed to increase my faith and understanding or it was just a worldly happening that God neither knew nor cared about. What a dilemma of thought! Admittedly, I am a fairly black and white person, but this really came down to black or white in my mind. Either the God I had loved and trusted and who I thought loved me allowed this evil for my own improvement, or God was ignorant and uncaring of the situation. I was heartbroken and chose the latter, because the first makes no sense.

The answer to all your questions is Yes.

Our loving Heavenly Father will never, ever, ever, infringe on our agency or the agency of the "evil people." Its really hard to stay faithful when everything seems to fall on your head.

I don't know what your personal time frame with be. I don't know what you need before Heavenly Father answers your prayers. Maybe more prayer today? I don't know. What I do know is Heavenly Father is real. He knows you personally. He understands the heartache and uncertainty and loss of faith you're experiencing. However, he's not going to open the door for you. You have to do that.

[Dark_Jedi]

Thank you. I wish I could share more but some spiritual things are just to tender and personal.

You are looking for a sign. Its in your question: "IF someone was being inspired by revelation from God they would be interested in my well being. Since my home teacher doesn't come by and my Bishop avoids me then revelation doesn't exist." Yet, when the Bishop did come by and said you had been in his thoughts you brushed it off. God couldn't possibly inspire my Bishop to come see me. Yet this is a man you say avoids you in social situations. Why would he come see you if God hadn't prompted him to?

QUOTE]

The stake president told him to come visit. The bishop didn't tell me that, the stake president did. He may have felt prompted (I don't know) but he didn't do it until the stake president asked him to.

[applepansy]

The stake president told him to come visit. The bishop didn't tell me that, the stake president did. He may have felt prompted (I don't know) but he didn't do it until the stake president asked him to.

So it wasn't the Bishop. But is was someone.

[JudoMinja]

A failure to act does not necessarily mean one is uncaring. Part of our mortality includes dealing with the consequences of our own actions and the actions of others. Many times God will not interfere so that his final judgment can truly be just. I would suggest getting and listening to John Bytheway's "5 scriptures that will help you get through almost anything". It is an excellent talk, one point of which particularly stands out to me given your description of your struggle-

In this portion of the talk, he focuses on the story of Alma and Amulek as they witnessed the women and children of the faithful being thrown to the fire. And Alma said to Amulek- "The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day." (Alma 14:11)

Sometimes, God allows wicked and terrible things to happen and does not intervene, because intervention would thwart our agency. While whatever you've gone through will possibly never be made right in this life, you will stand as a witness against those who acted wrongly against you come judgment day. And because of your witness, God's judgments will be truly just.

It is a small comfort when we face hardships to know that we may never see things get better during mortality, but it is possible to see that God really is there, He really does care, and He really does love you. I hope that you will continue to exercise faith, even though you don't feel it, because I know that with continued prayers and serious study of the scriptures, you can come to understand that God does love you and care about what you are going through.

[Dark_Jedi]

Dark_Jedi, you seem like a good person and just so you know I struggle with my relationship with God as well.

But I have to disagree with JudoMinja. I don't think that you have been "patient with the weakness and shortcomings of your fellow men". When was the last time you did your Hometeaching or reached out to your "friends" in the Church? I do agree 100% that this is your trial.

I believe you can live the laws and ordinances of the gospel but not actually truly be “living” the gospel. Your offense at others weakness and subsequent judgments tell me you are missing that which makes the gospel “sweet above all”. Perhaps you have been holding the Iron Rod but not moving toward the tree of life and reaching out toward the fruit. The fruit is aquired thru living the gospel, doing as the savior did, serving, loving, forgiving and sacrificing for others.

I don't have (nor desire) a home teaching route - I'm a known apostate, after all. You have to admit, it's pretty difficult to present a messge about basic beliefs of the church that I don't believe in, and it's a little awkward for the head of house when they ask me to pray and I refuse because I don't believe in it. And I do associate with members of the ward, I am invited and go to their non-church social functions, and they are invited, and come to ours. They'll come and help me make repairs on my home, if asked, and they (at least intially) joined in fasting and praying. Other than that (the assigned home teacher who rarely comes) there is very little movement on either side. Could I do more? Sure. But so could they. At least I have an excuse - I am admittedly uninspired.

I don't think you understand the depth of my feelings.

[Dark_Jedi]

Sometimes, God allows wicked and terrible things to happen and does not intervene, because intervention would thwart our agency. While whatever you've gone through will possibly never be made right in this life, you will stand as a witness against those who acted wrongly against you come judgment day. And because of your witness, God's judgments will be truly just.

I had this discussion with my home teacher (now a counselor in the stake presidency) at the time when I was still active. We'd love to think that. He said essentially the same thing you just said. So, because they wronged me in this life, because of my witness against them in the next life (or on judgement day or whenever) they will not be afforded the opportunity to hear the gospel, be baptised and receive their temple blessing by proxy, and enter the clestial kingdom? Is that really what the church teaches?

[Dark_Jedi]

So it wasn't the Bishop. But is was someone.

The stake president wasn't inspired, either - I contacted him. He did follow up, which is how I know he told the bishop to come (while apologizing for telling him to come when I asked him not to contact the bishop). When I contacted the stake president, I asked him not to share my thoughts with the bishop and we talked about the whole inspired thing and God really caring, etc. That's why I was surprised the bishop initiated contact. In his apology, the stake president said he thought it better to share with the bishop that I needed a visit, although he said he didn't share anything else. So the stake president broke my trust (human foible) and the bishop was not totally honest in his contact. I could let that go if I had heard from either since, but I have not. For the record, they are both aware that I recently became unemployed again.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Dark_Jedi

[Anddenex]

@Anddenex, you are extremely insightful. Thank you for not bringing up Job, I obviously do not have the faith of Job. I had not really considered Joseph as an example, and now will do so.

Thank you, you are very kind. Yes, I didn't bring up Job because I don't have the faith of Job, and will not pretend I do either.

To be honest, I really can't take credit for mentioning Joseph in Egypt. The Lord has counseled me in my P.B. that I should read carefully the life of Joseph, and what made him such a great man. Not only such a great man, but his life is in similitude of Jesus Christ, his life is a representation of our Savior and what he accomplished.

You mentioned some difficulty with a member, and were open, and I will share a little bit more regarding my heart.

A couple years ago I worked for a member in my ward. At work, one of my associates began to lie about me, consistently, and this fellow member, my boss, began to believe her lies. If it wasn't for another person in this company, as a Father of 4, I would have been fired. The meeting of this other person defending me took an hour and a half. Even then, it didn't stop this person from believing lies.

After I quit working there this individual was called into the Bishopric of our ward. I don't pretend people can be one way, and then magically be another person in a ward calling. I was really concerned for myself and my family.

I went to the Stake President with my concern, not to get him released, but to let my leaders know that this was going to be difficult. The Stake President told me, although I went for counsel and understanding that I was "Weak, evil, and that my life was amiss." This was the counsel I received from a leader who was supposed to be my Shepherd. Not sure why some leaders think they can say anything they want, because they are leaders.

It took me back, here I was, 4 months before this serving as the EQP, I magnify my callings, I pay an honest tithe and fast offerings, read my scriptures, prayed daily, and 3 months prior to this I was also serving in the Temple.

Either way, why did God allow a Shepherd to say such things? I mean if I was so weak, evil, and amiss doing everything I have been commanded to do (of course, acknowledging human weakness), was there any hope for me?

Yet, the Lord suffered it, and He must behold something that I currently don't see at this moment, and 2 years later, I am now in the Bishopric.

Either way brother, on a side note, there are 13 people who have taken notice and seem to be caring.

[JudoMinja]

I had this discussion with my home teacher (now a counselor in the stake presidency) at the time when I was still active. We'd love to think that. He said essentially the same thing you just said. So, because they wronged me in this life, because of my witness against them in the next life (or on judgement day or whenever) they will not be afforded the opportunity to hear the gospel, be baptised and receive their temple blessing by proxy, and enter the clestial kingdom? Is that really what the church teaches?

The opportunity to hear the gospel and accept it in spirit prison is for those who never had the chance in this life. From what you've said, I believe the people who wronged you were members of the church. They've already had their chance, and they've used it poorly. This is what God's justice is for. Exactly how that justice gets doled out is up to Him, but your witness will be one of the things taken into consideration. So, there's no way to know exactly where the person will end up, but since both God's mercy and justice are perfect, we can trust that they will end up wherever is best.

[rameumptom]

Jedi, no offense taken.

I have on occasion feel the spirit withdraw from me. I've gone periods of time without strong or even weak impressions. As I've looked back on those periods, I feel it was to allow me to see how I would fare believing, even when I felt I was walking alone.

In those times, it has helped me to truly appreciate Jesus on the cross, "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?"

During those periods when I've felt the spirit withdraw, I've had to rely on my own faith, based upon previous experience with miracles, study, and inspiration. In doing so, I've been able to learn some very key things that I feel the Lord wanted me to learn, which I could not do without such a withdrawal of the spirit. It forced me to look at faith with the rose-colored sunglasses off. I had to see the world in its raw form, and deal with it.

As with you, I could have chosen to stop believing. Or I could have decided that God no longer loves me. Instead, I focused on what the Lord had demonstrated to me in the past. I have felt his love in the past. I have seen miracles. I have had spiritual witness of the truths of the gospel. I chose to believe. I chose to believe that God still loves me, but needs me to walk in the darkness on occasion, so that I can understand what that is like. I know it is extremely difficult, as I've been there. But to keep believing even when I didn't feel the presence of the Spirit, meant that I was choosing my destiny based on the things I know to be true.

And in doing so, I learned tons about hope. I could not have understood hope, faith or charity as I do now, without first experiencing such a loss.

Even today, I often walk my daily life with very few spiritual events. While I know the Holy Spirit is often with me, I also know he withholds much from me, just so I can learn precious lessons I cannot learn otherwise.

As for when I hear church leaders say things that I do not agree with, I realize they are speaking in generalities, and I should not take offense to it. Instead, I try to understand those things in a manner that relates to me and my family.

So, don't feel you are the only person who has stood alone. What matters is what we do with the time. You have been less active for 8 years, suggesting you are allowing events to act upon you. Perhaps you could choose to act and do what you know deep down is right, even if you must walk lots of the path alone. And then believe that God still has your best interests at heart for the eternities.

[applepansy]

I don't have (nor desire) a home teaching route - I'm a known apostate, after all. You have to admit, it's pretty difficult to present a messge about basic beliefs of the church that I don't believe in, and it's a little awkward for the head of house when they ask me to pray and I refuse because I don't believe in it. And I do associate with members of the ward, I am invited and go to their non-church social functions, and they are invited, and come to ours. They'll come and help me make repairs on my home, if asked, and they (at least intially) joined in fasting and praying. Other than that (the assigned home teacher who rarely comes) there is very little movement on either side. Could I do more? Sure. But so could they. At least I have an excuse - I am admittedly uninspired.

I don't think you understand the depth of my feelings.

I do. The more we answer, encourage and offer suggestions that will help you, the more you will find a way to express "that won't work." Been there! Done that! Bought the T-shirt!

As I read your words, I've finding very deep feelings resurfacing and bringing tears. I have felt what you are describing. With that in mind please accept the following with the knowledge that I too have felt nobody understood the depth of my feelings and nobody understood why I was not going to believe in a loving Heavenly Father anymore.

You need to forgive the people who harmed you. Until you do nothing will feel right.

Please do not remove your name from the records of the church until you can forgive.....everybody. You'll only be hurting yourself and it won't help you feel better about the harms done or the people who did them.

[Windseeker]

I don't think you understand the depth of my feelings.

You're right.

I'm also not doing my hometeaching.

but I have feelings and experiences as well.

LDS.Net is seriously the Island of Misfit Toys, your getting imperfect advice from imperfect people.

But what wonderful advice!

I wish you the best.

[Dark_Jedi]

The opportunity to hear the gospel and accept it in spirit prison is for those who never had the chance in this life. From what you've said, I believe the people who wronged you were members of the church. They've already had their chance, and they've used it poorly. This is what God's justice is for. Exactly how that justice gets doled out is up to Him, but your witness will be one of the things taken into consideration. So, there's no way to know exactly where the person will end up, but since both God's mercy and justice are perfect, we can trust that they will end up wherever is best.

Only one was a member of the church (future stake president, actually), and he's dead. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.

[JudoMinja]

Only one was a member of the church (future stake president, actually), and he's dead. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.

Ah, well the opportunity to accept the gospel should still be open to the others involved, but the fact that there's no way for us to be certain of the details and how things will pan out when the time comes still stands. However, it's starting to sound like the "intervention" you are looking for is for God dole out his justice on these people... While there are times that God does strike people down, this kind of judgment is pretty rare, and I believe any bitterness, resentment, and unforgiving feelings you are harboring could well be the very reason you haven't felt God's presence returning to you.

[Dark_Jedi]

I do. The more we answer, encourage and offer suggestions that will help you, the more you will find a way to express "that won't work." Been there! Done that! Bought the T-shirt!

As I read your words, I've finding very deep feelings resurfacing and bringing tears. I have felt what you are describing. With that in mind please accept the following with the knowledge that I too have felt nobody understood the depth of my feelings and nobody understood why I was not going to believe in a loving Heavenly Father anymore.

You need to forgive the people who harmed you. Until you do nothing will feel right.

Please do not remove your name from the records of the church until you can forgive.....everybody. You'll only be hurting yourself and it won't help you feel better about the harms done or the people who did them.

I think that you are one of the few that can begin to relate to my feelings, I think I can relate to yours. I think Anddenex can also relate - his situation is more similar to mine that yours as I don't have to deal with physical afflictions on the same level as you.

I do have a problem with forgiveness, probably my biggest fault. I have worked on it and continue to work on it, but forgiving these people isn't goingto happen anytime soon. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

[Dark_Jedi]

Ah, well the opportunity to accept the gospel should still be open to the others involved, but the fact that there's no way for us to be certain of the details and how things will pan out when the time comes still stands. However, it's starting to sound like the "intervention" you are looking for is for God dole out his justice on these people... While there are times that God does strike people down, this kind of judgment is pretty rare, and I believe any bitterness, resentment, and unforgiving feelings you are harboring could well be the very reason you haven't felt God's presence returning to you.

No, I actually am beyond caring what happens to those people. Do I think the guy who died of lung cancer at 49 after not smoking a day in his life deserved it? Yep! I don't think I seek justice for them now (it's been awhile, after all), but I do seek mercy for me. I don't disagree that bitterness and an unforgiving attitude likely do stand in the way of my progression. I do work on this, and some of it has just gotten better over time. Also, God should be aware of these feelings and how I have struggled with them (if prayers are really heard). This was a deep, deep wound that is slow to heal, but I try. The trying is apparently not good enough. Or, God doesn't care, in which case it doesn't matter.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Dark_Jedi

[applepansy]

I do have a problem with forgiveness, probably my biggest fault. I have worked on it and continue to work on it, but forgiving these people isn't going to happen anytime soon. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

I understand. But don't discount it. Leave yourself open to the possibility of letting go of the hurt.

There are times when I'm unforgiving (If I can compose message it will be in a PM) .... Especially towards my grandson's incubator.

Edited October 11, 2012 by applepansy

[laffinlill]

Unfortunately, the people make the church...But, even though I have been hurt, I will never give anyone the satisfaction of running me away...I have fought my whole life to stand up for what I believe in. When I was younger, I had a lousy Scout Master run my son off...when he was only 17. It was lousy leadership, and the charter should have been removed from the ward..But, because of my trust for a bishop who should have taken care of this Scout Master, ten Scouts are now very inactive, including my own...So, it is on his shoulders..i cannot do anything to help with the situation. So, I dont accept the mistake of others, but I refuse to take it on to myself.

[JudoMinja]

Healing comes with time. How much time varies with every individual case, but one thing that can help speed recovery is seeking to help others. It may seem contradictory to find healing through serving others instead of others serving you, but it works. Perhaps God's hand has been involved in your life, and you just can't see it through your pain. He doesn't always help us the way we would like Him to. And sometimes the help He would give us is hindered, because He works through the hands of others who may ignore the promptings He gives them.

[Dark_Jedi]

Healing comes with time. How much time varies with every individual case, but one thing that can help speed recovery is seeking to help others. It may seem contradictory to find healing through serving others instead of others serving you, but it works. Perhaps God's hand has been involved in your life, and you just can't see it through your pain. He doesn't always help us the way we would like Him to. And sometimes the help He would give us is hindered, because He works through the hands of others who may ignore the promptings He gives them.

Good advice, and I do spend a fair amount of time helping and serving others - especially since I have some time on my hands while unemployed. I do find pleasure in serving others and doing good. But being unemployed (and pretty much unemployable) is probably not the best way for God to show his love for me. I get it already, I failed the faith test. Hence it's easier to believe in the God I believe in as opposed to one you believe in. The one you believe in wouldn't do this.

[applepansy]

Have you seen this video about Chris Williams? Whether you have or not, please watch it again.

Mormon Messages

[applepansy]

Good advice, and I do spend a fair amount of time helping and serving others - especially since I have some time on my hands while unemployed. I do find pleasure in serving others and doing good. But being unemployed (and pretty much unemployable) is probably not the best way for God to show his love for me. I get it already, I failed the faith test. Hence it's easier to believe in the God I believe in as opposed to one you believe in. The one you believe in wouldn't do this.

Not yet you haven't.

[Dark_Jedi]

Not yet you haven't.

That's what my wife used to say. But you're wrong, I have clearly demonstrated that I do not have the faith required to endure to the end. Granted, the test may not be over, but I have nonetheless failed it. Hence the original question. I wouldn't be asking if I did have the faith. Don't confuse knowledge with faith.

[BrendaM]

Wow, I 've read pretty much this whole thread. DarkJedi you are certainly suffering, and I am sorry. I have a couple of comments: God doesn't "do" things to you. Unfortunately, his imperfect beings do. He cannot stop them from doing that. As you know.

Joseph Smith could have let himself be overcome by the evil forces that surrounded him in the grove before he saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. He made the choice to fight the evil. He made the choice to fight for his faith and salvation. What a great example.

[JudoMinja]

Good advice, and I do spend a fair amount of time helping and serving others - especially since I have some time on my hands while unemployed. I do find pleasure in serving others and doing good. But being unemployed (and pretty much unemployable) is probably not the best way for God to show his love for me. I get it already, I failed the faith test. Hence it's easier to believe in the God I believe in as opposed to one you believe in. The one you believe in wouldn't do this.

On the contrary. I don't know exactly what's happened to you and don't expect you to share the details, but the God I believe in allows terrible things to happen so that our agency can be preserved. He also does not always provide obvious miracles in response to suffering in order to lighten our burdens. More often, He does His work through very small acts that may not even be recognized as miraculous.

Let me share a little personal experience with you. I felt God withdraw from my life when I entered a very abusive relationship. I was not the most faithful at the time, and I certainly wasn't at my best spiritually, but my husband and I both wanted to better ourselves, repent of our shortcomings, and see our relationship grow into something wonderful. Neither of us were employed- him due to a back injury and me due to a rather trying pregnancy and his unwillingness to let me leave the home. We were relying on our bishop's storehouse for food and met with our bishop to discuss our struggles and work on repentance.

I felt certain that my husband and I could overcome our failings, that he could become a worthy priesthood holder, that we could go to the temple, and that we could provide for ourselves and our little one on the way. However, my husband was far too troubled by the abuse he'd experienced as a child and far too violent for me to remain safe in our relationship. There were several occassions where his actions could have killed me, and I sometimes wished they had. I stayed true to our relationship, praying fervently for my husband's heart to be softened, until the time came that he turned his violent hand on our infant, and my faith shattered.

I secretly sent a message to an old friend asking for advice. The only way I could get the message to her without my husband reading it was to send it to her myspace account, which she hadn't checked in a couple years. But the day after I sent it, she felt she should check her account. She saw my message and spoke with my mom, who gave her the money she would have sent me to pay our bills that month so that she could drive all the way across the states to get me. I didn't even know she was on her way when I felt I needed to flee the situation- and an opportunity presented itself when my husband had to go to an appointment. I took our baby and what I could carry to some college friends nearby who didn't even know what had been going on but were willing to put me up until I could find out what to do, and then my childhood friend on the way from home called to say she was in town and wanted to know where to get me.

All this came together to help me in a most miraculous way, but it was small. It was not the miracle I'd been looking for. My now ex-husband's heart has still not been softened and he is not involved in my life or our child's. Even with God's hand helping me out of that situation, I have still had quite the struggle finishing school and finding adequate work as a single parent. Sometimes, I still feel like God is staying His hand fom my life when there are areas He could be helping.

God is there. He cares. He loves you. You will find His miracles at work in your life with time and patience and as you look in the right places. He won't always help the way you want Him to. He won't make things easy. But He will make it possible for you to bear your burdens.