Evolution, Artificial Intelligence and “Oneness with G-d”

[Seminarysnoozer]

In the same tone, thus some of our appearances will be similar, overall, I think I will still have the same jaw line, eye bone structure, etc... This is what defines me as me, and individual within a whole.

Will obesity be an issue in the after life, resurrection? No, I don't believe so. I feel sorry for women with augmentations, especially if they really upsized their appearance. In the resurrection I am thinking they will be very disappointed.

Our temporary stewardship does not define us only what we do with the temporary stewardship. Your body is a stewardship it is not owned by you. It doesn't define anyone's personal characteristics anymore than a person with Down's syndrome has his or her characteristics defined by their appearance. You will get the pink slip eventually, but that is to a perfected body, to a model that doesn't and can't exist in this world. Currently, you cannot lay claim to it. That is what I am saying is the pitfall of such belief. It is laying claim to something that is not ours. It will return to dust. It is a temporary stewardship to determine if we will be capable of greater stewardship. As far as we know, the changes to the genetics of our body from the garden of Eden copy could be as great as the difference between someone with Down's to someone without. Just think of the variability of height that is out there, shortest being around 2 1/2' to the highest being about 8 1/2 feet, that is 6 feet different. So, we are created in the image of God, +/- 6 feet of change. That sounds like a huge range of deviation to me ... that is what corruption does.

This is the pitfall of pride, such as the model who believes that is who they are, or the professional athlete who believes their 6' 11' body is what defines them and not a temporary gift. Or the person who has been given a temporary brilliant mind who comes up with some wonderful invention and pridefully suggest that was by his individual effort and not a temporary stewardship or gift. I think of the general authority who was a professional rugby player who took the right perspective on the body gift and stewardship, it is there to do God's work and purposes and when it is completed it is not to claim it as your own, it was a temporary stewardship. Where much is given much is expected and will be taken into consideration in the end.

Part of the corruption that we face is in the form of what happens in the process of having mortal offspring. There are random deletions, amplifications, altered copies and variable copies that are nothing like the original. Over time those changes are amplified, they do not become more like the original. A restoration would make it more like the original. If you want your copy to continue with some of the random deletions and mistakes thrown in via corruption then I suppose you could desire such a thing. For me, I would like a copy of the original, I try to keep my eye single to the glory of God and not keep my eye on things that are temporary stewardship as if I could claim them as my own as an unjust steward would do.

[Anddenex]

As far as we know, the changes to the genetics of our body from the garden of Eden copy could be as great as the difference between someone with Down's to someone without.

This is an interesting thought, however it would be interesting to note, assuming Joseph Smith actually said, that Joseph Smith once said that his brother Hyrum looked like Seth.

Another note, when John the Baptist, a resurrected being bestowed the Aaronic Priesthood, was he looking like Jesus, and Heavenly Father in appearance, or did he look he look like John the Baptist. I am in the belief that he looked like John the Baptist wrapped in Celestial Glory.

We must remember also, that Joseph Smith was visited by resurrected beings, all the prophets who died before Christ, who were apart of key dispensations. I am more inclined to believe they looked like they did when they were here upon the earth, except perfect.

Just think of the variability of height that is out there, shortest being around 2 1/2' to the highest being about 8 1/2 feet, that is 6 feet different. So, we are created in the image of God, +/- 6 feet of change. That sounds like a huge range of deviation to me ... that is what corruption does.

I look at height, in the same light I see freckles, colored skin, brown eyes vs. blue eyes, down syndrome, obesity, etc... all genetic codes which some will have truly no appearance in the next life.

I will not have freckles. Could I be taller? Sure. Could others be smaller? Sure. Will there be height differences. I believe there will be. I don't think we all need to be the same in appearance: height, facial structure, bone structure, in order for us to be one with God.

I find no doctrinal evidence to suggest this. I do find doctrinal evidence to suggest otherwise.

For me, I would like a copy of the original, I try to keep my eye single to the glory of God and not keep my eye on things that are temporary stewardship as if I could claim them as my own as an unjust steward would do.

Me too. I am not claiming anything as my own. I am only accepting the gift God has given me, and when I live worthy enough for Celestial exaltation to receive this gift also. :)

[Traveler]

It is interesting to observe individuals in this thread facing various concepts and ideas. As I stated in starting this post that in the biological world around us that individual entities are able to find life advantages by forming symbiotic relationships with other organisms and life forms. In some cases the life forms contain abundance of similar DNA that we understand creates a “higher” life form.

So let us use a kidney as a highly coupled symbiotic relationship with a “higher life form”. A kidney is not as exotic as other living tissues that comprise the brain, eyes or other such things. Kidney tissue is not as glamorous as perhaps skin and hair tissue. The super intelligence derived from human symbiosis may not seem so engrossed in “kidney” functions but without such contribution the human will die. The contribution of the kidneys is absolutely essential to the rest of the organism. Therefore it is necessary for the human to maintain a working symbiotic relationship with tissue performing the work of kidneys.

MIT recently performed an experiment involving 10 large balloons. These balloons carried timing and possession interments and were designed to stay at levels that could be seen by the naked eye. The 10 balloons were released in various areas throughout the USA and a prize offered to the first individual that could locate all 10 balloons. The person that won the contest contacted “friends” on the internet social media and offered incentives to anyone that would work together to find the balloons. Within 6 hours that individual was able to put together a symbiosis network that correctly identified the geo-position of all 10 balloons.

Obviously the combined networking intelligence of the symbiosis individuals was vastly superior to the most brilliant individuals trying to solve this problem as individuals. Can anyone imagine the competitive edge such efforts would have in a “storm” or other critical dangerous situation in finding safe harbor? Does this give anyone insight into recent suggestions (commandments) to stand in holy places? Does anyone else the power in utilizing what science is currently calling the hive mind or hive intelligence?

Does anyone – other than me – see the idea that salvation (being one with G-d) is not just about a lot of individuals connecting with G-d as it is with connecting with each other? Jesus said that the second commandment – to love others – is like the first. Which is to love G-d. Maybe the reality is that the two cannot be separated. Maybe connecting with G-d is connecting with his children.

The Traveler

[Anddenex]

It is interesting to observe individuals in this thread facing various concepts and ideas. As I stated in starting this post that in the biological world around us that individual entities are able to find life advantages by forming symbiotic relationships with other organisms and life forms. In some cases the life forms contain abundance of similar DNA that we understand creates a “higher” life form.

So let us use a kidney as a highly coupled symbiotic relationship with a “higher life form”. A kidney is not as exotic as other living tissues that comprise the brain, eyes or other such things. Kidney tissue is not as glamorous as perhaps skin and hair tissue. The super intelligence derived from human symbiosis may not seem so engrossed in “kidney” functions but without such contribution the human will die. The contribution of the kidneys is absolutely essential to the rest of the organism. Therefore it is necessary for the human to maintain a working symbiotic relationship with tissue performing the work of kidneys.

MIT recently performed an experiment involving 10 large balloons. These balloons carried timing and possession interments and were designed to stay at levels that could be seen by the naked eye. The 10 balloons were released in various areas throughout the USA and a prize offered to the first individual that could locate all 10 balloons. The person that won the contest contacted “friends” on the internet social media and offered incentives to anyone that would work together to find the balloons. Within 6 hours that individual was able to put together a symbiosis network that correctly identified the geo-position of all 10 balloons.

Obviously the combined networking intelligence of the symbiosis individuals was vastly superior to the most brilliant individuals trying to solve this problem as individuals. Can anyone imagine the competitive edge such efforts would have in a “storm” or other critical dangerous situation in finding safe harbor? Does this give anyone insight into recent suggestions (commandments) to stand in holy places? Does anyone else the power in utilizing what science is currently calling the hive mind or hive intelligence?

Does anyone – other than me – see the idea that salvation (being one with G-d) is not just about a lot of individuals connecting with G-d as it is with connecting with each other? Jesus said that the second commandment – to love others – is like the first. Which is to love G-d. Maybe the reality is that the two cannot be separated. Maybe connecting with G-d is connecting with his children.

The Traveler

If I am understanding you correctly Traveler. My answer would be "Yes."

[Traveler]

If I am understanding you correctly Traveler. My answer would be "Yes."

Hmmmmm - is this a symbiosis hive intelligence response?

The Traveler

[Anddenex]

Hmmmmm - is this a symbiosis hive intelligence response?

The Traveler

If I am understanding your response correctly with the 10 large balloons, and science calling this a "hive intelligence response", then yes I would agree.

However, when I think of a hive mind, I think of bumble drones, who really have no intelligence of their own. They just do.

So I am not fond of the wording, but I agree the symbiosis hive intelligence response, is much better than a single individual intelligence, even if they are Stephen Hawkings.

I really wish wards would recognize the power behind this "hive intelligence" you speak of. The problems in wards, is to many minds thinking they know better than another, and they think their way is the better way, thus they break a connection, and thus the ward suffers.

EDIT: Are you able to link me to this 10 Large Balloons experiment. This will be a great training about unity and oneness within a ward.

[Traveler]

If I am understanding your response correctly with the 10 large balloons, and science calling this a "hive intelligence response", then yes I would agree.

However, when I think of a hive mind, I think of bumble drones, who really have no intelligence of their own. They just do.

So I am not fond of the wording, but I agree the symbiosis hive intelligence response, is much better than a single individual intelligence, even if they are Stephen Hawkings.

I really wish wards would recognize the power behind this "hive intelligence" you speak of. The problems in wards, is to many minds thinking they know better than another, and they think their way is the better way, thus they break a connection, and thus the ward suffers.

EDIT: Are you able to link me to this 10 Large Balloons experiment. This will be a great training about unity and oneness within a ward.

The article I first read had some facts incorrect but here is a very good link for you. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/29/darpa-network-challenge-c_n_339072.html

Hmmm does not look like a link ???? - good luck

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

This is an interesting thought, however it would be interesting to note, assuming Joseph Smith actually said, that Joseph Smith once said that his brother Hyrum looked like Seth.

Another note, when John the Baptist, a resurrected being bestowed the Aaronic Priesthood, was he looking like Jesus, and Heavenly Father in appearance, or did he look he look like John the Baptist. I am in the belief that he looked like John the Baptist wrapped in Celestial Glory.

We must remember also, that Joseph Smith was visited by resurrected beings, all the prophets who died before Christ, who were apart of key dispensations. I am more inclined to believe they looked like they did when they were here upon the earth, except perfect.

I look at height, in the same light I see freckles, colored skin, brown eyes vs. blue eyes, down syndrome, obesity, etc... all genetic codes which some will have truly no appearance in the next life.

I will not have freckles. Could I be taller? Sure. Could others be smaller? Sure. Will there be height differences. I believe there will be. I don't think we all need to be the same in appearance: height, facial structure, bone structure, in order for us to be one with God.

I find no doctrinal evidence to suggest this. I do find doctrinal evidence to suggest otherwise.

Me too. I am not claiming anything as my own. I am only accepting the gift God has given me, and when I live worthy enough for Celestial exaltation to receive this gift also. :)

You don't have to be one with God. Those that want to be one with God have a better chance at making that happen. I think that is my point. I don't think I understand the view of "I want to be one with God but maintain my differences."

When you say "except perfect" I think you are ignoring what that really means. God only created two human beings that were perfect, Adam and Eve. I know of no other copy that was made perfect. Everything else is in a fallen state, even Christ' body was. What other example of a perfect body has God created here?

Images of those that have passed on can take many forms. I don't hold that as evidence of anything in particular as even God appeared in a burning bush even though we know He is not a bush. A staff is made to look like a snake. Moses hand looks leprous, etc. It may be that man's eyes cannot see the true form of God without some kind of transfiguration and likewise a resurrected being might have to be transfigured to appear to man. Even then, most reports are kept at a minimum as they are indescribable or supposed to remain sacred.

[Traveler]

You don't have to be one with God. Those that want to be one with God have a better chance at making that happen. I think that is my point. I don't think I understand the view of "I want to be one with God but maintain my differences."

When you say "except perfect" I think you are ignoring what that really means. God only created two human beings that were perfect, Adam and Eve. I know of no other copy that was made perfect. Everything else is in a fallen state, even Christ' body was. What other example of a perfect body has God created here?

Images of those that have passed on can take many forms. I don't hold that as evidence of anything in particular as even God appeared in a burning bush even though we know He is not a bush. A staff is made to look like a snake. Moses hand looks leprous, etc. It may be that man's eyes cannot see the true form of God without some kind of transfiguration and likewise a resurrected being might have to be transfigured to appear to man. Even then, most reports are kept at a minimum as they are indescribable or supposed to remain sacred.

When you speak of "perfect" - do you understand that the ancient understanding as recorded in scripture was complete - not without flaw as many modern theorist try to purport. You may be reading something into ancient scriptures that was never intended. It is "man" that is created in the image and likeness of G-d. Which means man in the general extension and not specific to the intention of that first being we call Adam.

The Traveler

[Anddenex]

You don't have to be one with God. Those that want to be one with God have a better chance at making that happen. I think that is my point. I don't think I understand the view of "I want to be one with God but maintain my differences."

Then we both don't understand each other. I do not understand why one would think becoming one with God means we loose individual appearance.

In scripture a husband and wife become "one flesh", this does not mean that she inherits my flesh, and I inherit hers. This means we become one, one can interpret "one flesh" as the ability to bring children into the world, one flesh.

I don't think my children in order to become one with me, need to have a change of appearance.

When you say "except perfect" I think you are ignoring what that really means. God only created two human beings that were perfect, Adam and Eve. I know of no other copy that was made perfect. Everything else is in a fallen state, even Christ' body was. What other example of a perfect body has God created here?

Nope, I think you are misunderstanding what I say when I mean perfect. I find no evidence in scripture that a person's appearance will change, when we become one with God. Perfection: without any ailments, no handicaps, no down syndrome, no genetic code mutations. A man born without limbs, will have limbs in the resurrection.

I guess what I am saying is in connection with Traveler's response. I am already made in the image of God, why would my appearance need to change save it be genetics that only apply to this life? Examples again: I will no longer have freckles (YES!). There will be no black, white, brown, yellow skin tones. The skin tone will be glory. I believe our eyes will no longer be brown, blue, green, etc... They will be the same eyes described in scripture pertaining to Christ.

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

(Revelation 19:11-13 KJV)

However, now upon Traveler's responses, I think I understand more of what he was getting across, and would like to discuss this "hive intelligence mind" more. However, of course, feel free, as you already do, to rebuttal.

[Seminarysnoozer]

no genetic code mutations.

I agree with this statement but you can't just throw that in there and then not stick by it. What is a genetic code mutation? If it is different than what either of the parents had, then it is mutated. So, if one takes it back to Adam and Eve, their children had the first mutations from the original. And even then, we do not know how "mutated" the genes became from the original creation to the fallen bodies. So, to really restore it back to it's original creation in the image of God, it's perfected image it is what was created back in the Garden of Eden.

The bigger defects are easier to agree on but if you agree on those then you have to agree on the smaller ones too, otherwise, who is deciding where the line is drawn as far as what is meant by "genetic code mutations". Even one enzymatic change is still a change that could be repaired back to the original, so that not "one hair is lost." Maybe there is a reason Adam lived so long. ... his genes were less corrupted from the original creation. Maybe there is a reason that Seth is in the likeness and image of his father, or maybe that was thrown in there for no reason at all. Maybe for him to be a "seed" (as in the meaning of Seth - plant a seed) he had to have certain genes which is revealed by his likeness. Maybe we are to have Christ' image in our countenance.

[Traveler]

...

However, now upon Traveler's responses, I think I understand more of what he was getting across, and would like to discuss this "hive intelligence mind" more. However, of course, feel free, as you already do, to rebuttal.

As a consulting engineer and an expert in automation, robotics and artificial intelligence in a manufacturing environment I fine the hive intelligence very interesting. There are two different concepts of hive intelligence. One is the superior controller that that oversees the theater of operations and makes decisions for each individual to maximize efficiencies. The second concept is to pass down information for decisions to be made at the lowest level possible. Keep in mind that information is collected during operations at the lowest level and made available to the hive network.

Thus the contrast is – where are decisions made? One concept relies on an intelligent overseer and relatively unintelligence autonomous operating individuals whose main task is to gather information and pass it to the overseer. The second relies on intelligent autonomous operating individuals with sophisticated commutation systems sharing information capable of making decisions based on available information.

Each system has advantages and the decision of which is best to use depends on factors concerning the theater in which the system will operate. I tend to favor the intelligent autonomous operating individuals. In a factory environment with autonomous operating individuals a factory has a much larger bandwidth of operation and catastrophic problems will only affect that area directly connected to the failure. Whereas, with the intelligent overseer a failure of any kind – even a minor glitch at the overseer level will affect the entire theater and may even shutdown all operations. With the analogy of the ant or bee colony – if something happens to the queen – the hive is doomed. With intelligent individuals making decisions based on shared information – there can be failure after failure and the “system” can continue – even learning from the loses.

The Traveler

Edited November 7, 2012 by Traveler

[Anddenex]

I tend to favor the intelligent autonomous operating individuals. .... With the analogy of the ant or bee colony – if something happens to the queen – the hive is doomed. With intelligent individuals making decisions based on shared information – there can be failure after failure and the “system” can continue – even learning from the loses.

I believe I would tend to accept the "intelligent autonomous operating individuals" also. As you have shared when the queen dies the hive is doomed.

I wonder, is there any research contemplating the combination of the two hive intelligences?

I am thinking, Bishops - Bishoprics - Auxiliary Presidents - Teachers - etc...

Do you think the two could be symbiotic or coexist with each other? Or is the one more in reference to a "dictatorship" type government?

EDIT: I am wondering also if this would apply to CEOs who like to bottleneck everything that goes on in their business, referencing "intelligent overseer"?

Edited November 7, 2012 by Anddenex

[Traveler]

I believe I would tend to accept the "intelligent autonomous operating individuals" also. As you have shared when the queen dies the hive is doomed.

I wonder, is there any research contemplating the combination of the two hive intelligences?

There are ways to configure how a hive operates depending one the theater of operations. I am using for much of my posting - manufacturing models. In the case of the intelligent overseer it would be most foolish to not have a "hot" backup to replace the overseer. Often there are "clusters" that operate at the overseer level to insure continuing operation - like a "bishopric" there is a fail over priority procedure in the cluster. But there can be deteriorating operations. Usually the cluster is also communicating with outside networks for orders and to determine market trends in what is called "supply chain" operations. Beside marketing - availability of raw materials is monitored. Sometimes the "host" operations and necessities require an overseer that can adjust the theater according to outside changes.

In reality nothing happens according to liner operations. In sophisticated operations flows and bottle nicks occur at different times for different places. So when autonomous intelligent operations at lower levels can learn treads and minimize what is called queuing or buffering. These are not necessarily bottle nicks as much as ebbs and flows of operations.

I am thinking, Bishops - Bishoprics - Auxiliary Presidents - Teachers - etc...

Do you think the two could be symbiotic or coexist with each other? Or is the one more in reference to a "dictatorship" type government?

EDIT: I am wondering also if this would apply to CEOs who like to bottleneck everything that goes on in their business, referencing "intelligent overseer"?

I should attempt to avoid various kinds of politics - both in society and business. But the reality is that in most businesses - I believe there is an over emphasis on overseeing or management. In that when there are failures at the management level the repercussions are in essence passed on down the operational chain. This I believe is the #1 reason in the USA that there are failures in manufacturing. Seldom do failures at the lowest levels cause time, money and resources to be wasted. When it is wasted at that level it is usually because "operators" are not allowed to pass up methods of improving what is happening. In other words the intelligence gathering is insufficient.

I really like the concept of the LDS Church that maintains that the basis of the Celestial Kingdom is the family and therefor the resources are designed to support the family at the lowest level. The idea is not so much to have intelligent bishops, stake presidents ore even general authorities as it is intelligent parents. It is also interesting to me that the family organization exist only in the Celestial kingdom

the Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

At the time we used a principle that has become the latest rage in artificial intelligence – it is called the “Hive” intelligence. The best way to explain this concept is an ant or bee colony. Each individual of the colony acts as an automatous entity and passes on bits of “learning” to a collective that considers the efficiency of new data. For our system the efficiency standard was time. The amount of time waiting to get a job started and time to do the work, which in our case the work was mostly moving from one point to another. The key was being able to adapt to changes in work or flow of work in the factory.

The Traveler

Please don't take this wrong, this is a legitimate question; What is the difference between what you describe and slavery as it would apply to humans? Or maybe even in a milder form, a dictatorship?

What is it that keeps the self directed, independent of outside influences mind (which is the definition of autonomous) contributing to the whole as opposed to selfish self improving activities? There has to be some drive to do that for humans. Either by force, fear of punishment or some perceived return on their effort. In other words, why would the individual care if the job got done faster. I think you are leaving out part of the equation which is the return back to the individual. There has to be some pay back or some punishment for not doing it. If there is no individual pay back then to me that is slavery. The sum of the return back to the individual has to be subtracted from the total gain, otherwise you are misrepresenting the total gain by the group. You have to define and quantify the pay back.

[Traveler]

Please don't take this wrong, this is a legitimate question; What is the difference between what you describe and slavery as it would apply to humans? Or maybe even in a milder form, a dictatorship?

What is it that keeps the self directed, independent of outside influences mind (which is the definition of autonomous) contributing to the whole as opposed to selfish self improving activities? There has to be some drive to do that for humans. Either by force, fear of punishment or some perceived return on their effort. In other words, why would the individual care if the job got done faster. I think you are leaving out part of the equation which is the return back to the individual. There has to be some pay back or some punishment for not doing it. If there is no individual pay back then to me that is slavery. The sum of the return back to the individual has to be subtracted from the total gain, otherwise you are misrepresenting the total gain by the group. You have to define and quantify the pay back.

What we have discussed so far is the network or structure. One might well ask what is the advantage in language? What is the payback in being able to converse with others? The answer is in the data and information being shared or learned.

The point is that cooperation is an advantage anytime there is competition for resources. One might well ask what is the payback to the players on a football team to huddle with the quarterback and plan out plays. Well for one - one of the players may come to the huddle and say - I am always open on the right side - pass me the ball.

The idea is that information and reward flows all directions through the hive network. Only when the have becomes one sided do elements become slaves. And the one thing that should be obvious in the evolution of the hive - is that the more efficient the hive the more likely it will continue to evolve. The reality is that a hive that enslaves is limited in its evolution - which if you think about it was why Satan's plan really was not as efficient and capable in the long term.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

What we have discussed so far is the network or structure. One might well ask what is the advantage in language? What is the payback in being able to converse with others? The answer is in the data and information being shared or learned.

The point is that cooperation is an advantage anytime there is competition for resources. One might well ask what is the payback to the players on a football team to huddle with the quarterback and plan out plays. Well for one - one of the players may come to the huddle and say - I am always open on the right side - pass me the ball.

The idea is that information and reward flows all directions through the hive network. Only when the have becomes one sided do elements become slaves. And the one thing that should be obvious in the evolution of the hive - is that the more efficient the hive the more likely it will continue to evolve. The reality is that a hive that enslaves is limited in its evolution - which if you think about it was why Satan's plan really was not as efficient and capable in the long term.

The Traveler

I think, even in the example you gave of football, the issue is that the individuals share in the common goal. I think the more important issue is having the same goal. This is why in how it relates to the bigger plan, such a "hive" oneness works when the outcome is shared and consistent amongst the parties involved. That is what makes the Celestial Kingdom so unique is the sharing of achievement, the sharing of glory. It being 100% adds to the productivity more than even communication does. Communication is important but there is something that occurs when our eye is single in purpose. ... I think that is what I was getting at which makes it different than slavery or a dictatorship.

If there is not a single purpose or the parties involved are not single in purpose then there has to be added motivation of some kind to drive the individual autonomous action towards a unified purpose.

In this world, I have found, getting a group of people to agree on a unified purpose and plan is very tough .... the elections is a case in point. It costs energy, time, money etc to make that happen, so the value as working together as a "hive" is lost in the cost to get everyone on the same page.

[Traveler]

I think, even in the example you gave of football, the issue is that the individuals share in the common goal. I think the more important issue is having the same goal. This is why in how it relates to the bigger plan, such a "hive" oneness works when the outcome is shared and consistent amongst the parties involved. That is what makes the Celestial Kingdom so unique is the sharing of achievement, the sharing of glory. It being 100% adds to the productivity more than even communication does. Communication is important but there is something that occurs when our eye is single in purpose. ... I think that is what I was getting at which makes it different than slavery or a dictatorship.

If there is not a single purpose or the parties involved are not single in purpose then there has to be added motivation of some kind to drive the individual autonomous action towards a unified purpose.

In this world, I have found, getting a group of people to agree on a unified purpose and plan is very tough .... the elections is a case in point. It costs energy, time, money etc to make that happen, so the value as working together as a "hive" is lost in the cost to get everyone on the same page.

I think you are not seeing the forest for all the trees. Social structures utilizing slavery in essence do not allow a player in a huddle to say - I am open - through me the ball. Slavery, by definition does not allow feedback - feedback is considered talking back. In scientific terms we call it half duplex communication as apposed to full duplex communications. Even in a command sequence, full duplex acknowledges when commands are received and understood without error. When communication is critical it is always full duplex.

You should have observed by experience that when individuals become invested in any effort - it will always be more successful than a systems that attempts to coarse its members outside of individual will. Think of hive intelligence as the most efficient and effective social order for learning and utilizing information and resources. If you think the most effective way to teach children in a family is to stand glaring over them with a razor strap - I think that says more about you than it does your children. It may see effective for a while - but when children grow and get a hold of their own razor strap - that system breaks down.

However, you have pointed out what I believe to be a glaring social flaw but that is another topic.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think you are not seeing the forest for all the trees. Social structures utilizing slavery in essence do not allow a player in a huddle to say - I am open - through me the ball. Slavery, by definition does not allow feedback - feedback is considered talking back. In scientific terms we call it half duplex communication as apposed to full duplex communications. Even in a command sequence, full duplex acknowledges when commands are received and understood without error. When communication is critical it is always full duplex.

You should have observed by experience that when individuals become invested in any effort - it will always be more successful than a systems that attempts to coarse its members outside of individual will. Think of hive intelligence as the most efficient and effective social order for learning and utilizing information and resources. If you think the most effective way to teach children in a family is to stand glaring over them with a razor strap - I think that says more about you than it does your children. It may see effective for a while - but when children grow and get a hold of their own razor strap - that system breaks down.

However, you have pointed out what I believe to be a glaring social flaw but that is another topic.

The Traveler

Haha - good one! My husband played football in college (won't say which one otherwise I might develop some instant enemies) but he would have been thrown off the team if he did anything other than what he was supposed to by design of the coach coming up with the play before the game begins. He could not say "throw me the ball".

In the second paragraph, you are now talking about teaching which is off of what I thought the topic was about. If that is the case then we are talking about two different things. I thought you were talking about "oneness with God" as your title suggests. I don't think I was talking about what is more effective - that was your claim to make. I was just pointing out that "effectiveness" needs to take into account the cost to make everyone have the same motive if they truly are autonomous like you are saying. Or course, machines are not really autonomous. Yes, you may be getting close to some kind of autonomous algorithms but they are miles away from a spirit-body human who is under the pressure of accountability for their choices.

If we are comparing it to the "oneness of God" which is what I thought this thread is about, even if it is by way of some factory productivity metaphor, there is a primary separation of those that first love God with all their heart and second love their neighbor as their self. I think finding the working model metaphor for that is very difficult. The closest thing may be those that have found themselves under leadership in which they treated the leader like a God, i.e. the emperor of Japan or Hitler. There are few other examples in which an autonomous person is willing to be "one" with their leader in cause to the point of willingness to give their life for them. In theorizing about the efficiency of a "hive" mentality, irregardless of how good the communication is, I think it becomes inapplicable to any human behavior unless there is some underlying force or motive that makes the group want to be have the same goals. When talking about factories etc, that motive becomes financial, when talking socially there is usually is some benefit the individual gets back, like protection or support of some kind. All I am saying is that those returns have to be subtracted from the gains in those models to really see what the net gain is from that approach.

In the Celestial Kingdom, because the motive is love, all benefit from any gain of an individual. In other words, there is no subtraction of the cost of motive. So, therefore, it is the strength of motive that becomes more efficiently productive than the communication lines or the teaching methods etc.

I am just giving you some feedback thoughts here, I am not saying this is what I believe or this is how I conduct my life and I would appreciate not using the word "you" as if that is what I adhere to in my day to day life. We are talking about models of social behavior here.

[Traveler]

Haha - good one! My husband played football in college (won't say which one otherwise I might develop some instant enemies) but he would have been thrown off the team if he did anything other than what he was supposed to by design of the coach coming up with the play before the game begins. He could not say "throw me the ball".

Now we know your husband was a line man. I find it interesting that you suggest a playing teem member should never contribute to plans. That your husband could not say to his other teem-mates something like "Has anyone else noticed when the middle line backer lines up off of center that there will always be a blitz on the other side?"

In the second paragraph, you are now talking about teaching which is off of what I thought the topic was about. If that is the case then we are talking about two different things. I thought you were talking about "oneness with God" as your title suggests. I don't think I was talking about what is more effective - that was your claim to make. I was just pointing out that "effectiveness" needs to take into account the cost to make everyone have the same motive if they truly are autonomous like you are saying. Or course, machines are not really autonomous. Yes, you may be getting close to some kind of autonomous algorithms but they are miles away from a spirit-body human who is under the pressure of accountability for their choices.

I am talking about any system - complex or simple that involves multiple individuals attempting to accomplish a common task or tasks. I think what you may have missed (pardon how I used you here - but I am making reference to your posts) - is that the motive if the individual is part of what is shared in the"intelligent" hive mind. This, I believes, drives directly into the next thing you (sorry again but the word "you" works so well here) bring up.

If we are comparing it to the "oneness of God" which is what I thought this thread is about, even if it is by way of some factory productivity metaphor, there is a primary separation of those that first love God with all their heart and second love their neighbor as their self. I think finding the working model metaphor for that is very difficult. The closest thing may be those that have found themselves under leadership in which they treated the leader like a God, i.e. the emperor of Japan or Hitler. There are few other examples in which an autonomous person is willing to be "one" with their leader in cause to the point of willingness to give their life for them. In theorizing about the efficiency of a "hive" mentality, irregardless of how good the communication is, I think it becomes inapplicable to any human behavior unless there is some underlying force or motive that makes the group want to be have the same goals. When talking about factories etc, that motive becomes financial, when talking socially there is usually is some benefit the individual gets back, like protection or support of some kind. All I am saying is that those returns have to be subtracted from the gains in those models to really see what the net gain is from that approach.

How many time have we heard that the key to teaching (or any relationship) is communications? The hive mentality - is in essence a free internet where information is free and uninhibited. incentives and motives keeps coming up as if from a 60's business mentality. 50 years ago if someone would have said that people will offer their time, effort and even products for free - the business man of the past would have laughed the idea to scorn. Nobody works for free is the great American business model - may be true but money is not the only or even always the best means of compensation. Ask yourself why the internet is becoming the best means of information?

In the Celestial Kingdom, because the motive is love, all benefit from any gain of an individual. In other words, there is no subtraction of the cost of motive. So, therefore, it is the strength of motive that becomes more efficiently productive than the communication lines or the teaching methods etc.

I am just giving you some feedback thoughts here, I am not saying this is what I believe or this is how I conduct my life and I would appreciate not using the word "you" as if that is what I adhere to in my day to day life. We are talking about models of social behavior here.

I see - in essence you are playing a Devil's Advocate - not necessarily something you believe to be true are relevant to your actual experience.

Sometimes I think people think the oneness with G-d means being able to receive inspiration and guidance from G-d. This is an example of something necessary but not sufficient. I believe oneness with G-d is more "full duplex". Not just able to receive things that are meaningful to us but able to give things to G-d that are meaningful to him. But even that is not enough - it is being able to send and receive meaningful "stuff" from the other members of the oneness. This is why love of G-d and love of others really cannot be separated - in reality the oneness in the love of G-d includes the oneness in the love of others as well.

Perhaps the hive mind is best manifested in the core concept of a loving family. This is particularly interesting because the oneness of parents carries over to the love of children - even the children that have become dysfunctional within the core needs and efforts of the family.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Now we know your husband was a line man. I find it interesting that you suggest a playing teem member should never contribute to plans. That your husband could not say to his other teem-mates something like "Has anyone else noticed when the middle line backer lines up off of center that there will always be a blitz on the other side?"

I am talking about any system - complex or simple that involves multiple individuals attempting to accomplish a common task or tasks. I think what you may have missed (pardon how I used you here - but I am making reference to your posts) - is that the motive if the individual is part of what is shared in the"intelligent" hive mind. This, I believes, drives directly into the next thing you (sorry again but the word "you" works so well here) bring up.

How many time have we heard that the key to teaching (or any relationship) is communications? The hive mentality - is in essence a free internet where information is free and uninhibited. incentives and motives keeps coming up as if from a 60's business mentality. 50 years ago if someone would have said that people will offer their time, effort and even products for free - the business man of the past would have laughed the idea to scorn. Nobody works for free is the great American business model - may be true but money is not the only or even always the best means of compensation. Ask yourself why the internet is becoming the best means of information?

I see - in essence you are playing a Devil's Advocate - not necessarily something you believe to be true are relevant to your actual experience.

Sometimes I think people think the oneness with G-d means being able to receive inspiration and guidance from G-d. This is an example of something necessary but not sufficient. I believe oneness with G-d is more "full duplex". Not just able to receive things that are meaningful to us but able to give things to G-d that are meaningful to him. But even that is not enough - it is being able to send and receive meaningful "stuff" from the other members of the oneness. This is why love of G-d and love of others really cannot be separated - in reality the oneness in the love of G-d includes the oneness in the love of others as well.

Perhaps the hive mind is best manifested in the core concept of a loving family. This is particularly interesting because the oneness of parents carries over to the love of children - even the children that have become dysfunctional within the core needs and efforts of the family.

The Traveler

Ha, you make me laugh Traveler, thanks.

I don't think I was playing the Devil's advocate so much as trying to understand how you are applying those concepts to the whole reason for this forum which is to discuss LDS gospel doctrine.

I agree with you as you talk about love and oneness. I don't think I have said anything opposite of that. I think what you are now arguing which may be different from what I said, is what comes first the chicken or the egg, the love or the oneness. I have been saying that there has to be a motive to have a "hive" mentality. And I believe that motive as it applies to the gospel teachings is to have an eye single to the glory of God, to love God with all our heart might mind and strength which is a process of putting away autonomous thought. Then the efficiency of the "hive" really shines. But as soon as someone in the "huddle" says I have a better idea and it disagrees with another person in the "huddle" then the "hive" mentality falls apart. If the receiver runs a different course than what the quarterback is expecting then there is no "hive". So, that is why I was expressing what I perceive to be the biggest potential for a flaw in that system is when the motive or the focus is allowed to change amongst the group. There is no singleness of motive then there cannot be a "hive".

I was pointing out that what I bolded above, you talking about a group that already has a common task, does not really exist unless by some overpowering force such as what occurs in a dictatorship or in slavery etc. The internet, for example, is not a web of people that have the same goals. ... for sure! (to express my 80s mentality)

[Traveler]

Ha, you make me laugh Traveler, thanks.

I don't think I was playing the Devil's advocate so much as trying to understand how you are applying those concepts to the whole reason for this forum which is to discuss LDS gospel doctrine.

I agree with you as you talk about love and oneness. I don't think I have said anything opposite of that. I think what you are now arguing which may be different from what I said, is what comes first the chicken or the egg, the love or the oneness. I have been saying that there has to be a motive to have a "hive" mentality. And I believe that motive as it applies to the gospel teachings is to have an eye single to the glory of God, to love God with all our heart might mind and strength which is a process of putting away autonomous thought. Then the efficiency of the "hive" really shines. But as soon as someone in the "huddle" says I have a better idea and it disagrees with another person in the "huddle" then the "hive" mentality falls apart. If the receiver runs a different course than what the quarterback is expecting then there is no "hive". So, that is why I was expressing what I perceive to be the biggest potential for a flaw in that system is when the motive or the focus is allowed to change amongst the group. There is no singleness of motive then there cannot be a "hive".

I was pointing out that what I bolded above, you talking about a group that already has a common task, does not really exist unless by some overpowering force such as what occurs in a dictatorship or in slavery etc. The internet, for example, is not a web of people that have the same goals. ... for sure! (to express my 80s mentality)

The basic concept is far simpler. Let’s look at the concept of having an eye single to the glory of G-d. What is the glory of G-d? It is the immortality and eternal life of man. And what is man - is not the man for whom G-d in his glory seeks the immortality and eternal life of -- nothing more or less than the other elements of the hive?

In your analogy - why would a receiver run a route different from that route the he and the QB and the rest of the team, had worked out together, practiced and completely agreed upon previously? What motivation (incentive) is there to run any other route?

I would submit the simplicity of the hive is what I have been poorly communicating all along - it begins with two antonymous individuals seeking for and achieving an advantage by working together and cooperating. Then the hive grows (if you will by exponential fractals) by replicating the initial quest for advantage by adding more individuals. At the same time the hive also becomes more efficient by improving communications and discovering other focus of mutual advantage.

Now I would submit the including of the intelligence of G-d, is, if not of necessity an initial parameter but if not then something of subsequence learning would be of necessity on the inevitable path of a hive naturally evolving the most effective and efficient solutions for the hive.

I submit that the plan of a hive mentality that G-d has given us is the only possibility that can continuously (eternally) grow and remain inclusive - inclusive meaning to be able to add more individuals for the mutual benefit of all. Can you see the difference in the plan of Satan - that was designed to the benefit of that segment that controls the remaining?

And what is the initial condition of a workable hive mentality? That can grow forever through generations of the human family - forever adding individuals? I submit -- a man and a women bound together by covenant to form a family. There can be other hive intelligence but none other as effective and efficient - and that any hive intelligence seeking the most effective and efficient intelligence will evolve the same conclusion. This conclusion is a rather big jump and for some may require much more detail to comprehend.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

The basic concept is far simpler. Let’s look at the concept of having an eye single to the glory of G-d. What is the glory of G-d? It is the immortality and eternal life of man. And what is man - is not the man for whom G-d in his glory seeks the immortality and eternal life of -- nothing more or less than the other elements of the hive?

In your analogy - why would a receiver run a route different from that route the he and the QB and the rest of the team, had worked out together, practiced and completely agreed upon previously? What motivation (incentive) is there to run any other route?

I would submit the simplicity of the hive is what I have been poorly communicating all along - it begins with two antonymous individuals seeking for and achieving an advantage by working together and cooperating. Then the hive grows (if you will by exponential fractals) by replicating the initial quest for advantage by adding more individuals. At the same time the hive also becomes more efficient by improving communications and discovering other focus of mutual advantage.

Now I would submit the including of the intelligence of G-d, is, if not of necessity an initial parameter but if not then something of subsequence learning would be of necessity on the inevitable path of a hive naturally evolving the most effective and efficient solutions for the hive.

I submit that the plan of a hive mentality that G-d has given us is the only possibility that can continuously (eternally) grow and remain inclusive - inclusive meaning to be able to add more individuals for the mutual benefit of all. Can you see the difference in the plan of Satan - that was designed to the benefit of that segment that controls the remaining?

And what is the initial condition of a workable hive mentality? That can grow forever through generations of the human family - forever adding individuals? I submit -- a man and a women bound together by covenant to form a family. There can be other hive intelligence but none other as effective and efficient - and that any hive intelligence seeking the most effective and efficient intelligence will evolve the same conclusion. This conclusion is a rather big jump and for some may require much more detail to comprehend.

The Traveler

You are talking as if I disagree with you, I don't.

[Marlin1]

That's a cool way to look at it Traveler.

The scriptures say that God's glory is found in our immortality and eternal life. Elsewhere in scripture, God's glory is defined as intelligence. These sound like two different definitions for God's glory on the surface, but with the concept of hive mentality, they are really the same thing. If God's glory is intelligence, our salvation (God's glory) must in someway increase God's intelligence. This hive mentality is a good explanation of how that might happen.

Our motivation to take part is the same as God's - it is family and love, which brings greater intelligence and thus glory. Love seems to be the principle that makes it all possible and worthwhile.

If God's glory is our salvation and His intelligence, to glorify God mean's nothing more than to give him of ourselves. It is through giving glory (ourselves) that we receive glory (our children). We could not ourselves take part in glory (intelligence through continuation of the seed) without first giving God the glory (ourselves).

Edited November 9, 2012 by Marlin1

[Seminarysnoozer]

Now I would submit the including of the intelligence of G-d, is, if not of necessity an initial parameter but if not then something of subsequence learning would be of necessity on the inevitable path of a hive naturally evolving the most effective and efficient solutions for the hive.

I am confused about you talking about this life or the next. You seem to be bouncing back and forth between the two. I think you have to keep in mind that the "most effective and efficient solutions for the hive" don't have to "evolve" in the next life. They have already been worked out. They just have to be followed. (Thus, my example of the football player who simply follows the plan without any autonomous thought)

You seem to be implying that there has to be some form of change in the way things are done in the next life over time, which is what the words evolve implies. I don't think that is a feature of the next life. The process has been done over and over again, and all the bugs (excuse the pun - hives/bugs) have been worked out. The only place in which the lack of efficiency would need to be worked out is in a place where all the players are not on the same page, i.e. - in mortality. This is why I am saying (which you are taking as a given that does not really exist in this life) that the most important feature of this mentality is everyone being on the same page, the same motives and without variability or lack of integrity. The lack of integrity is the reason the football player would run a different route than planned, a mortal feature.