Convert of Two Years, Still Struggling to Reconcile Beliefs

[IndigoAK]

It's mostly just how I work. I'm the kind of person that needs to have the answer to everything or at the very least has a strong want to know the answer to everything. I spent hours and hours as a kid reading the encyclopedia in my free time, from cover to cover. While other kids were doing Little League and gymnastics, I was spending time with the Britannica. As an adult, I spend hours reading Wikipedia, clinical trial white papers, I subscribe to over a dozen scientific journals. I've mused to friends that if I were to go to college, I would get a major and then go back for another, simply acquiring major after major simply because I can.

There's just this part of me that needs to have it all "click." For the pieces of the puzzle about where science and religion all fit into the grand scheme of things to fall into place.

Like I said though, I'm better at placing this on the back burner than I am at placing the issue of sexual activity on the back burner. Probably because the issue of sexual activity is having a more immediate effect on my mental health.

[Guest]

It's mostly just how I work. I'm the kind of person that needs to have the answer to everything or at the very least has a strong want to know the answer to everything. I spent hours and hours as a kid reading the encyclopedia in my free time, from cover to cover. While other kids were doing Little League and gymnastics, I was spending time with the Britannica. As an adult, I spend hours reading Wikipedia, clinical trial white papers, I subscribe to over a dozen scientific journals. I've mused to friends that if I were to go to college, I would get a major and then go back for another, simply acquiring major after major simply because I can.

There's just this part of me that needs to have it all "click." For the pieces of the puzzle about where science and religion all fit into the grand scheme of things to fall into place.

Like I said though, I'm better at placing this on the back burner than I am at placing the issue of sexual activity on the back burner. Probably because the issue of sexual activity is having a more immediate effect on my mental health.

Do you want us to address the issue of sexual activity and how WE reconcile it in our lives? I wasn't sure if that was part of the intent of your post. My understanding was that you were looking for opinions on how we feel about reconciling LDS teachings with what we already knew (or thought we knew) and not necessarily dealing with any specific issue.

[mnn727]

My big thing with staying quiet is that I feel like I'm being dishonest in some way. Like I'm lying to everybody at church.

I see it as being humble in that perhaps God does know better than me, so I will listen to what people who have been called to teaching positions say and see if they can offer additional insight without my causing contention in class.

[mnn727]

She said to me once that she firmly believed I was drawn to the Church because I destined to change it. I'll admit it sounds crazy when I actually type it out and maybe it is, but I just found it interesting that would say that and then you would bring up the same topic in your forum post. I personally don't think this is the case. Changing the Church would require speaking in public and I can barely handle being in a room with two other people, much less a hundred or a thousand.

the only people who have the authority to change the rules is the First Presidency along with the Quorum of the Twelve and it must be unanimous.

Personally I want the Church to adopt a modern English version of Scriptures, but it ain't happening until those 15 men decide it will.

[Martain]

My testimony is like a living gemstone. With many facets and hues it incorporates many different doctrines and truth. As the facets and the light shining through them increase, my testimony grows more and more precious and beautiful. One day it shall incorporate all truth but for now, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little.

Am I correct in saying you want to know things? You want truth?

You say that yes you know that God lives, Joseph Smith bore a true testimony and President Monson is a true prophet of God and I say that I know by revelation from on high the above and much more.

Christ taught the parable of the sower and explained what it meant to his disciples in Matthew 13. When you read that parable, how would you classify yourself?

I infer from other comments, not only a love of learning and thirst for truth but a love of reading as well. Like deep deep roots you have put the precepts and doctrines of the world and man deep into your soul. I ask you how thoroughly have you done so with the Doctrines of Christ?

Read

I foresee the heat of affliction will rise and scorch the earth upon which you planted the gospel in your heart. If you have not nourished it properly, let it take sufficient strength in root, it will die. At best you will join the ranks of those inactive and at worst become an embittered apostate.

Do you want to know?

Read

Exercise faith, read and ask of God. Read the scriptures. Read the books written by Latter-day Prophets. Like you read the encyclopedia, come unto these founts of knowledge and drink deep.

As you do, the life giving water found within will nourish the truth inside you. As you do, the roots of truth will crowd out the roots of error. As you read pray that the Spirit will teach you too and feel as the light pours into your soul like a torrential rain upon parched ground.

After all... that's what happened to me. In addition to the standard works, would you be willing to read a few books I would recommend?

Lectures on Faith - Prepared by the Prophet Joseph Smith

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith - compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith [also found here]

Doctrines of Salvation Vol I II & III - by Joseph Fielding Smith (I would do a amazon search)

How Great Shall Be Your Joy - Steven A Cramer

Pray

Pray to the Lord. Humble yourself before him and ask for his aid. Tell him your struggles. Tell him that you're willing to let go of error and lies but that you need his help knowing what is true and in pulling out the weeds that have crept into your soul. Pour out your soul in prayer unto him for he will hear you. Pour out your soul in prayer unto him for he will teach you.

Oh know ye not the love He hath for you? Oh how He loves you and desires to heal you. Having walked this far he still beckons to you asking "Will ye come?".

I pray for you and that I may be of use to you my brother. If there is more I can do, let me know-

Love~

Martain

Edited March 26, 2013 by Martain

[The Folk Prophet]

the only people who have the authority to change the rules is the First Presidency along with the Quorum of the Twelve and it must be unanimous.

Personally I want the Church to adopt a modern English version of Scriptures, but it ain't happening until those 15 men decide it will.

Diverging a bit off topic here, but I often use modern English versions of the scriptures as a companion to the King James version. No reason why they church needs to officially adopt one in my opinion. That the KJV is official (and wherein, accordingly, our primary study should start) does not preclude utilization of other versions. Interesting though.

[The Folk Prophet]

My testimony is like a living gemstone. With many facets and hues it incorporates many different doctrines and truth. As the facets and the light shining through them increase, my testimony grows more and more precious and beautiful. One day it shall incorporate all truth but for now, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little.

Am I correct in saying you want to know things? You want truth?

You say that yes you know that God lives, Joseph Smith bore a true testimony and President Monson is a true prophet of God and I say that I know by revelation from on high the above and much more.

Christ taught the parable of the sower and explained what it meant to his disciples in Matthew 13. When you read that parable, how would you classify yourself?

I infer from other comments, not only a love of learning and thirst for truth but a love of reading as well. Like deep deep roots you have put the precepts and doctrines of the world and man deep into your soul. I ask you how thoroughly have you done so with the Doctrines of Christ?

Read

I foresee the heat of affliction will rise and scorch the earth upon which you planted the gospel in your heart. If you have not nourished it properly, let it take sufficient strength in root, it will die. At best you will join the ranks of those inactive and at worst become an embittered apostate.

Do you want to know?

Read

Exercise faith, read and ask of God. Read the scriptures. Read the books written by Latter-day Prophets. Like you read the encyclopedia, come unto these founts of knowledge and drink deep.

As you do, the life giving water found within will nourish the truth inside you. As you do, the roots of truth will crowd out the roots of error. As you read pray that the Spirit will teach you too and feel as the light pours into your soul like a torrential rain upon parched ground.

After all... that's what happened to me. In addition to the standard works, would you be willing to read a few books I would recommend?

Lectures on Faith - Prepared by the Prophet Joseph Smith

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith - compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith [also found here]

Doctrines of Salvation Vol I II & III - by Joseph Fielding Smith (I would do a amazon search)

How Great Shall Be Your Joy - Steven A Cramer

Pray

Pray to the Lord. Humble yourself before him and ask for his aid. Tell him your struggles. Tell him that you're willing to let go of error and lies but that you need his help knowing what is true and in pulling out the weeds that have crept into your soul. Pour out your soul in prayer unto him for he will hear you. Pour out your soul in prayer unto him for he will teach you.

Oh know ye not the love He hath for you? Oh how He loves you and desires to heal you. Having walked this far he still beckons to you asking "Will ye come?".

I pray for you and that I may be of use to you my brother. If there is more I can do, let me know-

Love~

Martain

This is an awesome and appropriate reply and I add my support of the ideas expressed. Thanks Martain.

[IndigoAK]

Do you want us to address the issue of sexual activity and how WE reconcile it in our lives? I wasn't sure if that was part of the intent of your post. My understanding was that you were looking for opinions on how we feel about reconciling LDS teachings with what we already knew (or thought we knew) and not necessarily dealing with any specific issue.

I'm looking for both. Like I mentioned previously, I'm at the end of my rope on the subject of masturbation. Church doctrine and teaching espouse elimination of the behavior, but I've spent two years trying to eliminate it and the result has been continuous stress and agitation, to the point where that stress is beginning to affect my ability to cope with real mental health issues - I'm diagnosed schizoaffective and PTSD, and the time spent in therapy trying to figure out the Church and masturbation far outweighs the time my therapist and I discuss whether or not I've had any PTSD episodes or hallucinations, etc. My therapist continually encourages me to practice moderation rather than elimination and for the longest time, I've hesitated in following her advice because of the Church's teachings, but I am extremely close to deciding that she might actually be right, that moderation is the healthier of the two choices simply because it's the solution that doesn't end in hospitalization. Nobody I know personally in the Church has provided any solutions or guidance that's worked - support groups, talking, prayer, scripture study, etc. And then there are the people in the Church who give the simple answer, "Well then just stop doing it." as if that's a solution. To say that I'm frustrated is an understatement. In making my original post, I guess I sort of hoped that somebody somewhere had some off the wall, completely insane solution I haven't thought of and that might actually work. A last attempt before I settle for being a heathen because I don't know what else to do.

Read, read, pray

Prayer is incredibly difficult for me. I feel like if I'm supposed to ask for help and ask for forgiveness and apologize for my sins, my prayers every night are going to be the same thing over and over and over again. And at that point, I start asking myself, "Why would Heavenly Father care? Surely, there are more important prayers to listen to." I mean, I pray, I ask for forgiveness and then I make the same exact mistake the next day. Surely, at some point prayers become empty when you constantly make them and then never learn?

As for reading, I read every now and then. When I first joined, I read more than I do now and I find myself much more active in reading when it's the Doctrine and Covenants rather than the Book of Mormon proper (I think it's because I feel the D&C offers more practical guidance, versus abstract guidance, and as I've mentioned many times in this thread, I am all in favor of the practical).

I see it as being humble in that perhaps God does know better than me, so I will listen to what people who have been called to teaching positions say and see if they can offer additional insight without my causing contention in class.

Haha, I would never bring this up in a Sunday school class. What I meant by that is keeping it from friends or from the Branch presidency or from the Stake presidency, which I what I thought they meant by keeping my mouth shut. To me, keeping it from those people would feel like being dishonest and lying to everybody at Church.

[Guest]

I'm looking for both. Like I mentioned previously, I'm at the end of my rope on the subject of masturbation. Church doctrine and teaching espouse elimination of the behavior, but I've spent two years trying to eliminate it and the result has been continuous stress and agitation, to the point where that stress is beginning to affect my ability to cope with real mental health issues - I'm diagnosed schizoaffective and PTSD, and the time spent in therapy trying to figure out the Church and masturbation far outweighs the time my therapist and I discuss whether or not I've had any PTSD episodes or hallucinations, etc. My therapist continually encourages me to practice moderation rather than elimination and for the longest time, I've hesitated in following her advice because of the Church's teachings, but I am extremely close to deciding that she might actually be right, that moderation is the healthier of the two choices simply because it's the solution that doesn't end in hospitalization. Nobody I know personally in the Church has provided any solutions or guidance that's worked - support groups, talking, prayer, scripture study, etc. And then there are the people in the Church who give the simple answer, "Well then just stop doing it." as if that's a solution. To say that I'm frustrated is an understatement. In making my original post, I guess I sort of hoped that somebody somewhere had some off the wall, completely insane solution I haven't thought of and that might actually work. A last attempt before I settle for being a heathen because I don't know what else to do.

Okay, I'll address this one. This is actually something I gained a testimony of when I was still Catholic.

Sex is the ultimate expression of love between husband and wife and is the foundation by which pro-creation is made possible. If this expression of love is not present, sex is not of God but of the natural man. Love is NEVER self-directed. Love ALWAYS flows outwards - from ourselves towards another. ALWAYS. It always has the component of charity/service. And God has established that this expression of Love comes with a covenant. The covenant to love, to hold, to protect, for richer or poorer, sickness and health, yada-yada-yada..., with God in the middle of it all.

Masturbation, of course, does not have this love component so that's an easy thing to understand. Nothing in masturbation flows outwards.

Homosexual sex is of the natural man and not of God because it is missing that covenant. The covenant requires 2 genders.

But, even within the bounds of marriage, there are a lot of times where husband and wife engage in the activity - not as an expression of love - but merely to "get off". So, there is no intention of charity/service/giving of one's self, nothing different really from masturbation besides the method of "getting off". For example - demanding sex from an unwilling spouse. Nobody of course can determine whether a married couple engaging in a sexual activity is of God or of the natural man outside of themselves so this is not talked about much.

Your therapist forgot to mention redirection. It has been shown that redirecting that tension to a physical activity such as vigorous sports/exercise can lessen the need to release that tension through masturbation.

Prayer is incredibly difficult for me. I feel like if I'm supposed to ask for help and ask for forgiveness and apologize for my sins, my prayers every night are going to be the same thing over and over and over again. And at that point, I start asking myself, "Why would Heavenly Father care? Surely, there are more important prayers to listen to." I mean, I pray, I ask for forgiveness and then I make the same exact mistake the next day. Surely, at some point prayers become empty when you constantly make them and then never learn?

Okay, here's another testimony I've had: Prayer is not necessarily asking God to do something for you. More often than not, Prayer is merely a way for us to align our will to God's will. "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.". So basically, when your prayers are answered then your will is aligned with God's will.

So, you constantly pray the same prayer and nothing is happening, then it may simply mean your will is not aligned with God's will. God is unchanging. So, if you don't change your will, nothing different is going to happen. So, you can treat this as an experiment... try something else and see if your will starts to produce the promised results.

Now, because prayer is designed to bring your will in harmony with God's, praying without humility is basically useless.

And here's one thing that you need: Everlasting hope. When hope is dead, prayer is dead. We always live our lives with the hope that something greater is coming on the horizon. There's no point in believing a greater life after death when hope is dead.

And lastly... He is God. Don't presume He has limits such as how many prayers he can listen to in a day or how many times he can listen to the same prayer from you before he puts you on mute.

As for reading, I read every now and then. When I first joined, I read more than I do now and I find myself much more active in reading when it's the Doctrine and Covenants rather than the Book of Mormon proper (I think it's because I feel the D&C offers more practical guidance, versus abstract guidance, and as I've mentioned many times in this thread, I am all in favor of the practical).

Reading is awesome. But, even more awesome is applying what you read. In the scriptures, we learn there are only 2 commandments - 1.) Love God with all your heart, mind, and strength, 2.) Love others as God loves you. Everything goes forth from these 2. So, everything you read, everything you learn, everything you experience - religious, political, social... EVERYTHING... can be bounced against these two.

Haha, I would never bring this up in a Sunday school class. What I meant by that is keeping it from friends or from the Branch presidency or from the Stake presidency, which I what I thought they meant by keeping my mouth shut. To me, keeping it from those people would feel like being dishonest and lying to everybody at Church.

There's no reason to keep it from your home teachers, the bishopric, or the stake presidency. In my opinion, these discussions need to happen with them. But, there's a difference in going to your home teachers, or the bishop and stake president from the point of "I am right, you are wrong" and going to the bishop and stake president from the point of "I don't understand this - explain it to me and be prepared for me to challenge your explanation. It's how I learn.". Then you can challenge their explanations as a truth seeker from the point of humility keeping in mind the 2nd commandment - LOVE others.

Hope this helps.

Edited March 26, 2013 by anatess

[mnn727]

Diverging a bit off topic here, but I often use modern English versions of the scriptures as a companion to the King James version. No reason why they church needs to officially adopt one in my opinion. That the KJV is official (and wherein, accordingly, our primary study should start) does not preclude utilization of other versions. Interesting though.

I am fully aware that we may use whatever version we want in our personal studies.

If you would like to discuss, we should not hijack this thread.

[gree0232]

I'm looking for both. Like I mentioned previously, I'm at the end of my rope on the subject of masturbation. Church doctrine and teaching espouse elimination of the behavior, but I've spent two years trying to eliminate it and the result has been continuous stress and agitation, to the point where that stress is beginning to affect my ability to cope with real mental health issues - I'm diagnosed schizoaffective and PTSD, and the time spent in therapy trying to figure out the Church and masturbation far outweighs the time my therapist and I discuss whether or not I've had any PTSD episodes or hallucinations, etc. My therapist continually encourages me to practice moderation rather than elimination and for the longest time, I've hesitated in following her advice because of the Church's teachings, but I am extremely close to deciding that she might actually be right, that moderation is the healthier of the two choices simply because it's the solution that doesn't end in hospitalization. Nobody I know personally in the Church has provided any solutions or guidance that's worked - support groups, talking, prayer, scripture study, etc. And then there are the people in the Church who give the simple answer, "Well then just stop doing it." as if that's a solution. To say that I'm frustrated is an understatement. In making my original post, I guess I sort of hoped that somebody somewhere had some off the wall, completely insane solution I haven't thought of and that might actually work. A last attempt before I settle for being a heathen because I don't know what else to do.

Prayer is incredibly difficult for me. I feel like if I'm supposed to ask for help and ask for forgiveness and apologize for my sins, my prayers every night are going to be the same thing over and over and over again. And at that point, I start asking myself, "Why would Heavenly Father care? Surely, there are more important prayers to listen to." I mean, I pray, I ask for forgiveness and then I make the same exact mistake the next day. Surely, at some point prayers become empty when you constantly make them and then never learn?

As for reading, I read every now and then. When I first joined, I read more than I do now and I find myself much more active in reading when it's the Doctrine and Covenants rather than the Book of Mormon proper (I think it's because I feel the D&C offers more practical guidance, versus abstract guidance, and as I've mentioned many times in this thread, I am all in favor of the practical).

Haha, I would never bring this up in a Sunday school class. What I meant by that is keeping it from friends or from the Branch presidency or from the Stake presidency, which I what I thought they meant by keeping my mouth shut. To me, keeping it from those people would feel like being dishonest and lying to everybody at Church.

There may be another angle in looking at the issue: Addiction.

I have been around at lot of PTSD cases, and I have never seen masturation as part of a treatment plan.

There are different methods for dealing with PTSD then there are with addiction. If you replaced masturbation with ... drinking, as in, "I've tried to quit drinking as I struggle with other issues, but I just HAVE To have to shot now and again ..." I think the matter becomes a little clearer in terms of effects.

Perhaps your counselor can help deal with the issue less as a matter of moderation or more as a matter of addiction. I daresay that if the issue were excessive drinking, to the point that it was affecting your agency, moderation might be advocated ... but so would treatment for alcohol addiction.

It may prove fruitless, but it is a venue worth exploring before succumbing to the idea that our agency is beyond our control.

[Martain]

I know a man who once was where you are now. He found it repulsive and truly hated being shackled to this addictive sin. As someone who was once completely addicted to it, I'm still amazed that he can say he no longer desires to or even finds it tempting anymore.

The power you're looking for to become free is the Atonement of Jesus Christ. You need not only self control but a change in heart to where you no longer even desire to do so. If you want to know what brought him to where he is now, I've sent you a link to his conversion story.

[sarah331]

Indigo, I just wanted to thank you for posting this. I'm considering conversion, was also raised by very progressive parents, and have some of the same dissonances you do. It helps to see the answers here for the most part, and it helps to know that there are some more-liberal leaning people here (both in terms of political stuff and in their practice of Mormonism). I was starting to feel alone for a second there :)

[DMGNUT]

I apologize for jumping in when I have so little time, but there are a couple of short comments I'd like to toss into the thought stream.

The Beach Ball Theory;

A giant beach ball in the middle of a room full of people begins to expand.

Everyone is pushed to the walls, and due to the pressure of the expanding ball, they can't breathe and begin to pass out.

Finally someone is able to puncture the ball, and later, as the paramedics offer oxygen to those in need, and the police begin to take statements.

Some saw a giant red ball, some saw a giant green ball, or blue ball, or yellow ball...

They were all in the same room at the same time and witnessed the same thing... why are their descriptions all different?

This is probably best applied to one's view of the creation of the Universe.

The Universe, just like the beach ball, doesn't change just because my perspective, opinion, knowledge base... etc., is different than someone else's.

The Universe doesn't care about my thoughts.. it just is, what it is.

Humans are not perfect (in thought or otherwise);

This second thought comes from when I (also a convert... at the age of 43) was taking the lessons. The Missionaries once said they thought I was waiting for something... for some great "ah-ha" moment. And they were right... I was. I was waiting for proof. Proof from them, that the Church was true.

(Remember, this was when I was still an investigator)

They surprised me by saying they couldn't prove the Church was true.

They said that they are (as are all of us), fallible, subject to making mistakes, etc.

In short, we're mortal, we're only human.

The only truth we'll ever receive, comes to us from God, through the Holy Spirit.

We receive it by praying, but remember, God will only tell us what we're ready to hear.

The more we read, study and ponder the scriptures, the more He'll reveal.

I fully expect (at least with me) that there is a great deal of knowledge I won't receive until I'm on the other side of the veil.

I know these two thoughts have already been covered, but sometimes hearing something expressed in a different manner, makes a difference, even if only a small one.