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I believe the term in our LDS scripture scripture is agency. Agency implies that we work for or represent another. I believe the only agency we have is to align ourselves with either good (G-d) or evil (Satan). As I understand we are not free agents representing ourselves - because we do not even really know who we are. As I understand the default condition of our agency in mortality is to be aligned with Satan. That is problematic because Satan intends to eliminate any choice we wish to exercise concerning agency thus by default we would become agents of him.

The Traveler

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My understanding of agency is different. The definition of agency is an important point.

Suppose you are standing in front of two doors. You may choose to enter either. If you are a programed rob, you would not have agency.

But you are given the right to make your own choice. The fact that you may chose either door is agency. You choose the left one. As you approach it to enter, you begin to feel pain (or lack of pleasure. When you approach the other door, you feel less pain (or more pleasure).

But in your heart, you know the left door is the correct door for you. So you brave the pain and enter the left door. You have exercised your agency freely. You have chosen for yourself and must bear the consequences. If the pain were unbearable so that you could not ever enter the left door or if there were a physical barrier, you would not have had "free" agency. You would not be responsible for your forced choice. I realize God uses only "agency" in Moses 4:4. But I interpret this agency as as the power to chose

The first free agency choice was made in the pre-existence. !/3 chose to follow Lucifer. He must have had a persuasive argument because he got a lot of his fellow spirits to freely choose his side. As I understand it, that was the first time we exercised our free agency on anything that mattered.

Adam made the first free agency choice on this earth. As I understand it, he had to choose between the lesser of two laws to break. 1) cleave to his wife or 2) don't eat the fruit. There was no way out for him. He had to disobey one or the other.

As Children of God, it is given to them (us) to become "agents unto themselves" with the power to "know good from evil" (Moses 6:56). We are our own agents and we can choose freely and are responsible. True, we are learning. This world is a time for testing, teaching and training to use our potential immense power for good.

I agree, agency requires responsibility and accountability. There has to be a consequence to the choice to exercise agency.

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I believe the term in our LDS scripture scripture is agency. Agency implies that we work for or represent another. I believe the only agency we have is to align ourselves with either good (G-d) or evil (Satan). As I understand we are not free agents representing ourselves - because we do not even really know who we are. As I understand the default condition of our agency in mortality is to be aligned with Satan. That is problematic because Satan intends to eliminate any choice we wish to exercise concerning agency thus by default we would become agents of him.

The Traveler

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My understanding of agency is different. The definition of agency is an important point.

Suppose you are standing in front of two doors. You may choose to enter either. If you are a programed rob, you would not have agency.

But you are given the right to make your own choice. The fact that you may chose either door is agency. You choose the left one. As you approach it to enter, you begin to feel pain (or lack of pleasure. When you approach the other door, you feel less pain (or more pleasure).

But in your heart, you know the left door is the correct door for you. So you brave the pain and enter the left door. You have exercised your agency freely. You have chosen for yourself and must bear the consequences. If the pain were unbearable so that you could not ever enter the left door or if there were a physical barrier, you would not have had "free" agency. You would not be responsible for your forced choice. I realize God uses only "agency" in Moses 4:4. But I interpret this agency as as the power to chose

The first free agency choice was made in the pre-existence. !/3 chose to follow Lucifer. He must have had a persuasive argument because he got a lot of his fellow spirits to freely choose his side. As I understand it, that was the first time we exercised our free agency on anything that mattered.

Adam made the first free agency choice on this earth. As I understand it, he had to choose between the lesser of two laws to break. 1) cleave to his wife or 2) don't eat the fruit. There was no way out for him. He had to disobey one or the other.

As Children of God, it is given to them (us) to become "agents unto themselves" with the power to "know good from evil" (Moses 6:56). We are our own agents and we can choose freely and are responsible. True, we are learning. This world is a time for testing, teaching and training to use our potential immense power for good.

If someone stands before two doors not knowing what is behind the doors - I do not believe that as a choice - at the very best it is a guess. One can only act if there is knowledge and intelligence - without knowledge and intelligence one of necessity is acted upon. Also note from the scripture the only choice in agency is between good and evil. Now, you are very good with logic - then what is the good and evil that all that come into this life come to experience and know? (including the new born that only lives a few seconds - hint hint)?

The Traveler

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Where do you get that? A body without a spirit is without life, meaning there is no potential for eternal life or what we call life which is to have both a spirit and a body. There are things that act and things acted upon but that does not mean that things that are acted upon have no action of their own. Does an oxygen molecule moving around in the air require an intelligent spirit telling it to make movements or is that just the nature of oxygen?

Teachings of David O. McKay:

"Each of us has two contrasting natures: the physical and the spiritual.

Man is a dual being, and his life a plan of God. That is the first fundamental fact to keep in mind. Man has a natural body and a spiritual body. In declaring this fact the scriptures are very explicit:

“And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.” [Abraham 5:7.] " "The question, then, is: Which will give the more abundant life—pampering our physical nature or developing our spiritual selves? Is not that the real problem?3

Indulgence in appetites and desires of the physical man satisfy but for the moment and may lead to unhappiness, misery, and possible degradation; spiritual achievements give “joy not to be repented of.”"

David O. McKay states clearly that the physical man which is the contrasting nature to the spiritual nature and is within the natural body as opposed to the spiritual body has "appetites and desires". The appetites and desires of the physical body are separate from the spiritual. Man is a dual being. What is so confusing about that?

Paul outlines pretty clearly how bad that enemy is, don't deny it! "In his epistle to the Galatians, Paul specifically enumerates the “works of the flesh,” as he calls them, and the “fruits of the Spirit.” Note this classification: The works of the flesh are manifest as these:

“… Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

“Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

“Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

“Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

“And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

“If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.” (Gal. 5:19–25.)"

Are Satan and his angels spiritual beings or a physical beings (natural man? (trick question?).

The Traveler

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If someone stands before two doors not knowing what is behind the doors - I do not believe that as a choice - at the very best it is a guess. One can only act if there is knowledge and intelligence - without knowledge and intelligence one of necessity is acted upon. Also note from the scripture the only choice in agency is between good and evil. Now, you are very good with logic - then what is the good and evil that all that come into this life come to experience and know? (including the new born that only lives a few seconds - hint hint)?

The Traveler

You will note that I said But in your heart, you know the left door is the correct door for you. So the choice is not a guess. You know what is right. That knowledge is either from your experience in the Pre-existence that is not blotted out by the veil or by the natural tendency of a Child of God to do the right thing. (Is this the :Light of Christ"). Some people seem to have a desire to do good - some evil. That may be a residual from their personality formed earlier.

Re: new born: I can not judge why your new born dies. Some Ideas: the randomness of this physical world or the actions of another person. I do not like the explanation that it was God's will or that it was as a test pf another since I believe God is loving. I know that LDS doctrine considers that baby a soul worthy of sealing whereas a still born (without the breath of life) is not. God (Jesus) has created a bountiful world for us. He cannot control what his children do with it but there will be consequences. We will probably mess it up as we are doing now.

If the baby was cheated of a full life by the free agency of someone, I believe that person will have to face some consequences. I can imagine many scenarios. As for the baby, there will be other opportunities just as there will be opportunities for all to set all things right in the "Great Sorting Out" before WE find our final position in the next stage of our development.

Personally, I think free agency refers to every choice. It would be hard to limit choices to just between good or evil. Life is more subtle and complicated than that.

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If someone stands before two doors not knowing what is behind the doors - I do not believe that as a choice - at the very best it is a guess. One can only act if there is knowledge and intelligence - without knowledge and intelligence one of necessity is acted upon. Also note from the scripture the only choice in agency is between good and evil. Now, you are very good with logic - then what is the good and evil that all that come into this life come to experience and know? (including the new born that only lives a few seconds - hint hint)?

The Traveler

Using that example, would it be a choice if you believed God to tell you to choose one door and the "natural man" says to pick the other? The choice is in terms of expressing whom one obeys. I agree, it is not a choice based on knowing all the things that follow the choice. But, we don't need that to pass that test now, that was the first estate test. Now, we face a choice based in faith.

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You will note that I said But in your heart, you know the left door is the correct door for you. So the choice is not a guess. You know what is right. That knowledge is either from your experience in the Pre-existence that is not blotted out by the veil or by the natural tendency of a Child of God to do the right thing. (Is this the :Light of Christ"). Some people seem to have a desire to do good - some evil. That may be a residual from their personality formed earlier.

Knowledge is different than faith. One may have faith that what is behind a one door is better than another and in that sense one can have knowledge of faith - but the reality of choice and what is chosen remains the same. If one does not know what is behind the doors; that choice is not theirs. Again they can guess - but as you pointed out there is one other factor that can work in this scenario. We call it "agency" based in faith. In essence we trust G-d and the influence of his spirit. I understand that there is knowledge specifically in this trusted faith in G-d. But the knowledge we possess is not the knowledge of what is behind the doors - thus the choice is not a choice of what is behind the doors - we cannot make that choice. That choice is not ours to make so we do not and cannot choose what is behind the doors. What we choose is our faith in G-d to act as his agent in choosing which door. Only by exercising faith in true and living G-d do we have any possibility of choice. That is why in this life we live by faith in Jesus Christ and why such faith in the only means whereby we can become free - even as G-d is free to make choice by knowledge.

Re: new born: I can not judge why your new born dies. Some Ideas: the randomness of this physical world or the actions of another person. I do not like the explanation that it was God's will or that it was as a test pf another since I believe God is loving. I know that LDS doctrine considers that baby a soul worthy of sealing whereas a still born (without the breath of life) is not. God (Jesus) has created a bountiful world for us. He cannot control what his children do with it but there will be consequences. We will probably mess it up as we are doing now.

If the baby was cheated of a full life by the free agency of someone, I believe that person will have to face some consequences. I can imagine many scenarios. As for the baby, there will be other opportunities just as there will be opportunities for all to set all things right in the "Great Sorting Out" before WE find our final position in the next stage of our development.

Personally, I think free agency refers to every choice. It would be hard to limit choices to just between good or evil. Life is more subtle and complicated than that.

Now it may be just me but I think you are not seeing the forest because of all the trees. The great knowledge gained by coming to mortality is the knowledge between good and evil. One does not have to participate in evil acts to gain knowledge of evil - it can be gained through the results of evil. The result of evil is death. Every human that comes to mortality experiences this result of evil. The first death is separation from G-d. Specifically this is G-d the Father. We are separated from him, his kingdom, his laws and his "light". In essence being excommunicated from the society of the Father he is no longer our G-d. We thus suffer a very death of the spirit even thought through Jesus Christ we will live again and stand with Christ as our mediator before G-d the Father.

Also everyone human that comes to mortality experiences physical death - or the second death. Thus is the great plan of G-d man experiences death and now has knowledge of evil. But there is more.

Because of the atonement of Christ everyone will live again. The good, (which is the good of G-d) which is the atonement we be the experience of every human - including that child that only experiences mortality for seconds will know both good and evil. Only through mortality of the fall can we know good from evil and be like the G-ds.

The Traveler

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They are beings that did not pass the first estate test and they have been cast down for a period of time with the power given for a short period of time to bruise the heel of man.

Our first estate is a point the we both agree upon. I was asking a different question concerning their nature - is the nature of Satan and his followers a physical nature or a spiritual nature? I do not agree that only because of our "physical" nature that we (or any "spiritual" child of G-d) sin and become a natural enemy of G-d. I think you are missing something very obvious and important - but then perhaps it is me that has missed the obvious? So I have asked this question in hopes that if you answer the question I have asked - we may become closer to a resolution of why we see this differently.

The Traveler

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Our first estate is a point the we both agree upon. I was asking a different question concerning their nature - is the nature of Satan and his followers a physical nature or a spiritual nature? I do not agree that only because of our "physical" nature that we (or any "spiritual" child of G-d) sin and become a natural enemy of G-d. I think you are missing something very obvious and important - but then perhaps it is me that has missed the obvious? So I have asked this question in hopes that if you answer the question I have asked - we may become closer to a resolution of why we see this differently.

The Traveler

Ok, thanks.

I think we may agree that the spirit is marred by sinning and then it becomes part of that persons spiritual make up if they do not repent and become white as snow, renewed to their former cleanliness.

Comparing our "spiritual nature" with the nature of the spirits that have been cast out is comparing apples to oranges. Those that were cast out lost their innocence and experienced a permanent spiritual death. Comparing the nature of one who is spiritually dead to one who's spirit is alive with at least some light of Christ is comparing apples to oranges. Change in "spiritual nature" can only occur during a time of accountability. After pronouncement of the status of the first estate, in other words, after we passed the first estate test, could we fail it? Likewise, after the successful completion of the second estate test could we fail it in the future?

D&C ; " 43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his aprobation—that by his bnatural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;

44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;

45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey.

46 But behold, I say unto you, that little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten;

47 Wherefore, they cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me;"

What evil could our spirit self "list to obey" after the first estate and before the second estate began in which we are told her that the little children cannot sin until they become accountable? Meaning there is a time in which we are not accountable.

If I talk to my friend in Brazil and ask her if she likes root beer, she will say I don't know, I've never tasted it. Would you say then that it is in her nature to either like it or not? It is not even part of her nature as it hasn't been put to the test. The temptation has to be introduced and then we have to "list to obey" it to make it part of our nature. All those who passed their first estate have not "listed to obey" any evil up to the point of becoming accountable again after the age of accountability is reached in this life. If they don't reach the age of accountability they remain in their list-to-obey righteousness nature.

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Ok, thanks.

I think we may agree that the spirit is marred by sinning and then it becomes part of that persons spiritual make up if they do not repent and become white as snow, renewed to their former cleanliness.

Comparing our "spiritual nature" with the nature of the spirits that have been cast out is comparing apples to oranges. Those that were cast out lost their innocence and experienced a permanent spiritual death. Comparing the nature of one who is spiritually dead to one who's spirit is alive with at least some light of Christ is comparing apples to oranges. Change in "spiritual nature" can only occur during a time of accountability. After pronouncement of the status of the first estate, in other words, after we passed the first estate test, could we fail it? Likewise, after the successful completion of the second estate test could we fail it in the future?

D&C ; " 43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his aprobation—that by his bnatural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;

44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;

45 For they love darkness rather than light, and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey.

46 But behold, I say unto you, that little children are redeemed from the foundation of the world through mine Only Begotten;

47 Wherefore, they cannot sin, for power is not given unto Satan to tempt little children, until they begin to become accountable before me;"

What evil could our spirit self "list to obey" after the first estate and before the second estate began in which we are told her that the little children cannot sin until they become accountable? Meaning there is a time in which we are not accountable.

If I talk to my friend in Brazil and ask her if she likes root beer, she will say I don't know, I've never tasted it. Would you say then that it is in her nature to either like it or not? It is not even part of her nature as it hasn't been put to the test. The temptation has to be introduced and then we have to "list to obey" it to make it part of our nature. All those who passed their first estate have not "listed to obey" any evil up to the point of becoming accountable again after the age of accountability is reached in this life. If they don't reach the age of accountability they remain in their list-to-obey righteousness nature.

Why I think there is confusion. This is just my opinion and the purpose that I pursue discussions - to see how well my opinion hold up to other thinking of the question.

First: Some time ago I posted that I believe that the first step to evil or sin is in the nature of self and to appease the needs, wants, desires and passions of self. Granted this nature of self and self needs is magnified in the flesh as sensations of the flesh are more poignant because of the flesh. But I believe this nature is also a part of our individual spirit and is the vary nature of Satan that brought about his fall as a spiritual entity. In short he was self centered and that caused his propensity to love sin which is taken by the first step of self gratification which makes someone a natural man and enemy of G-d.

Second: As a spiritual child of our Father in heaven we are by inheritance entitled to his spirit or the spirit of G-d. Now here in the term spirit there are two meanings. G-d has his individual spirit that is part of his self but there is another meaning for spirit and that is the influence of all that is good that drives the "nature" of G-d the Father. This is then his influence that drives us as we become one with the Father and his Son - Jesus Christ. I believe that the spiritual nature which is spoken of is that nature of G-d that is also given to us as his "spiritual" and covenant offspring but it is not the same as our individual spirit entity. Thus the goal is not to connect with our spirit but with the spirit of G-d. But this is only achieved through our spirit in spirit to spirit.

Third: This goes to the notion that the first step towards good is the denial or sacrifice of self - both the physical and spiritual self that uniquely identifies us as an individual. The discipline of self is only accomplished through loving G-d and our fellow man. Which can only be accomplished by yielding to the spirit of G-d (which is discipline of self - through the commandments of G-d). If this is not the case the the self is not disciplined but instead it is indulged and the spiral vortex of sin is begun. Note that in keeping the commandments of G-d that both the spirit and the flesh is disciplined. Baptism is a good example. In the covenant of baptism not only is the spirit disciplined by covenant but the physical is also disciplined by being buried in water.

I have suggested that perhaps there are points you have left out in what I think is your opinion in these matters. Hopefully I have been to add to that at least in part. Now it is your turn to comment on my opinion and hopefully add something.

The Traveler

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Second: As a spiritual child of our Father in heaven we are by inheritance entitled to his spirit or the spirit of G-d. Now here in the term spirit there are two meanings. G-d has his individual spirit that is part of his self but there is another meaning for spirit and that is the influence of all that is good that drives the "nature" of G-d the Father. This is then his influence that drives us as we become one with the Father and his Son - Jesus Christ. I believe that the spiritual nature which is spoken of is that nature of G-d that is also given to us as his "spiritual" and covenant offspring but it is not the same as our individual spirit entity. Thus the goal is not to connect with our spirit but with the spirit of G-d. But this is only achieved through our spirit in spirit to spirit.

Thanks, I agree with most of your points.

I agree that there are multiple meanings to the word "spirit". It could mean spirit of God, our personal intelligent being spirit, gifts of the spirit, the spirit of the Lord, and even "evil spirit" which could mean the nature of that body, like when an evil spirit is removed or 'healed" from that body. But, I would more strongly state that we are spirit children of our Father in heaven and that means that we are not only entitled to his spirit but have the same nature. I believe we have, inherently, by matter of being children of God the spirit or as you put it, "the influence of all that is good that drives the "nature" of G-d the Father" already as part of our spirit nature. We have proven that by passing the first estate test. We do not have a nature for evil at the moment we pass the first estate test. If we did, we wouldn't have passed the first estate test. I do not believe we enter this life with any scars or evil tendencies from that first part of our development, we enter this life innocent, pure, clean and certainly worthy of being in the presence of God. That is how we enter into this world.

Now, that we are here, we cannot see that nature very well because of the veil. It is hard to even understand who we are or remember our past teachings and development. But if we were somehow able to step out behind the veil before we reach the age of accountability then we would see that our spirit is clean and pure. The issue is that by living in mortality, past the age of accountability we have made our spirit not as pure as it was before so we must repent. But if we repent it will be as white and pure as it was before, it will be as white as snow. Christ redeems us from that state of dirtiness. Redeeming, meaning it is as it was before, clean and pure. This was the whole battle in heaven's focus; 'why go to Earth and potentially dirty our nature when we already have a clean, pure nature?'. If that wasn't so, there would be nothing to lose. If we were already dirty, there would be no arguement; 'lets go down to Earth and at least then we have a chance to become clean'. But, that wasn't the issue. It is like what Adam faced, he was in a clean and pure state in the Garden of Eden but faced a road block that required a downward movement to overcome, it required a fall from where he was. As it is described in Gospel Principles as a downward but forward move. And then Christ can lift us beyond where we were to a state of glory after having gone lower than where we were as spirits alone.

Don't you believe we are fallen? Fallen from what level?

If a person sins and then repents and made pure, what is that person's nature, to sin or to repent? How can it be both? (my answer, we are dual beings here; your answer does not explain this) The nature of the spirit cannot be a repentant one and one that drives sinning at the same time. Either they desire to remain pure or they desire to sin, unless the desire to sin comes from a corrupted body plus being behind the veil in which the full force of the spirit is not available. In that way there is choice. A choice that we did not have before. If we had this situation before then there would be no reason to go into a fallen state. What is the purpose of the Fall if not to become fallen if we were already fallen by nature? The need for the Fall is because, in part, we were not fallen before.

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Thanks, I agree with most of your points.

I agree that there are multiple meanings to the word "spirit". It could mean spirit of God, our personal intelligent being spirit, gifts of the spirit, the spirit of the Lord, and even "evil spirit" which could mean the nature of that body, like when an evil spirit is removed or 'healed" from that body. But, I would more strongly state that we are spirit children of our Father in heaven and that means that we are not only entitled to his spirit but have the same nature. I believe we have, inherently, by matter of being children of God the spirit or as you put it, "the influence of all that is good that drives the "nature" of G-d the Father" already as part of our spirit nature. We have proven that by passing the first estate test. We do not have a nature for evil at the moment we pass the first estate test. If we did, we wouldn't have passed the first estate test. I do not believe we enter this life with any scars or evil tendencies from that first part of our development, we enter this life innocent, pure, clean and certainly worthy of being in the presence of God. That is how we enter into this world.

Wow this is a most interesting discussion - thank you. As I said in a previous post - it appears to me that the first inclination or step toward evil is selfishness. Though all come into this mortal life innocent - I am not sure that we can include that with that innocence that there are absolutely no selfish tendencies. In fact I have not heard (documented) of even a single exception. Now I have not said that selfishness is sin but I have implied that sin is the inevitable result. With newborn children all parents quickly learn that selfishness is an inborn initial characteristic that comes standard with every model of children produced in mortality - don’t believe me? Check the owner’s manual. A newborn cries because if its discomfort - not that a parent will be comforted. Selfishness is by nature the default condition of all sentient beings - a natural condition that can only be overcome by intelligence, learning and discipline.

Now, that we are here, we cannot see that nature very well because of the veil. It is hard to even understand who we are or remember our past teachings and development. But if we were somehow able to step out behind the veil before we reach the age of accountability then we would see that our spirit is clean and pure. The issue is that by living in mortality, past the age of accountability we have made our spirit not as pure as it was before so we must repent. But if we repent it will be as white and pure as it was before, it will be as white as snow. Christ redeems us from that state of dirtiness. Redeeming, meaning it is as it was before, clean and pure. This was the whole battle in heaven's focus; 'why go to Earth and potentially dirty our nature when we already have a clean, pure nature?'. If that wasn't so, there would be nothing to lose. If we were already dirty, there would be no arguement; 'lets go down to Earth and at least then we have a chance to become clean'. But, that wasn't the issue. It is like what Adam faced, he was in a clean and pure state in the Garden of Eden but faced a road block that required a downward movement to overcome, it required a fall from where he was. As it is described in Gospel Principles as a downward but forward move. And then Christ can lift us beyond where we were to a state of glory after having gone lower than where we were as spirits alone.

Don't you believe we are fallen? Fallen from what level?

I believe the veil has the exact opposite effect - that the true nature is not hidden but manifested (See D&C 193:31) An inspection of the very next verse (32) indicates that it is the spirit of man and not his physical nature that does not receive the light and therefore causing the man to be worthy of condemnation.

I think you are a little confused with the term “redeem”. This term suggest that we are bought or purchased. I think because we are purchased we are able to return to the Father that you have thought that redeem means to return.

As to what I believe is the meaning of the fall of man. The term fall is a symbolic term. In scripture, Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden and likewise Lucifer was cast out from the society of heaven. There was no inadvertent trip or stumble and fall in the general sense where gravity pulls a person down. The fall of man was necessary and the only means that man could obtain knowledge of good and evil. Without the fall there could be no death and without death man (including Christ) would not die. Thus we come to knowledge of evil. Through the selfless sacrifice of Christ in the atonement we are redeemed and come to know good. Note that good can only be experienced though the denial of and sacrifice of self - which is a natural condition (individual nature) of all intelligent sentient beings that must be overcome to be worthy and eligible of living eternally with G-d. Regardless of how pure we were having passed our first estate we were not worthy or capable of eternal life in G-d’s presents.

If a person sins and then repents and made pure, what is that person's nature, to sin or to repent? How can it be both? (my answer, we are dual beings here; your answer does not explain this) The nature of the spirit cannot be a repentant one and one that drives sinning at the same time. Either they desire to remain pure or they desire to sin, unless the desire to sin comes from a corrupted body plus being behind the veil in which the full force of the spirit is not available. In that way there is choice. A choice that we did not have before. If we had this situation before then there would be no reason to go into a fallen state. What is the purpose of the Fall if not to become fallen if we were already fallen by nature? The need for the Fall is because, in part, we were not fallen before.

If a person sins and then repents there is only one possible reason. When they sinned they really did not know what they were doing. When they came to understand better (light of truth) they repented. Thus the reason for sin followed by repentance is as Eve said - that she was beguiled or tricked and regretted it once she understood in the light of truth. The scripture says that sin committed because of such ignorance that G-d will wink at and there can and will be forgiveness but for those that sin against or in the light of truth there is no forgiveness. I do not see the dual nature in this that you are talking about????

The Traveler

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Wow this is a most interesting discussion - thank you. As I said in a previous post - it appears to me that the first inclination or step toward evil is selfishness. Though all come into this mortal life innocent - I am not sure that we can include that with that innocence that there are absolutely no selfish tendencies. In fact I have not heard (documented) of even a single exception. Now I have not said that selfishness is sin but I have implied that sin is the inevitable result. With newborn children all parents quickly learn that selfishness is an inborn initial characteristic that comes standard with every model of children produced in mortality - don’t believe me? Check the owner’s manual. A newborn cries because if its discomfort - not that a parent will be comforted. Selfishness is by nature the default condition of all sentient beings - a natural condition that can only be overcome by intelligence, learning and discipline.

I believe the veil has the exact opposite effect - that the true nature is not hidden but manifested (See D&C 193:31) An inspection of the very next verse (32) indicates that it is the spirit of man and not his physical nature that does not receive the light and therefore causing the man to be worthy of condemnation.

I think you are a little confused with the term “redeem”. This term suggest that we are bought or purchased. I think because we are purchased we are able to return to the Father that you have thought that redeem means to return.

As to what I believe is the meaning of the fall of man. The term fall is a symbolic term. In scripture, Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden and likewise Lucifer was cast out from the society of heaven. There was no inadvertent trip or stumble and fall in the general sense where gravity pulls a person down. The fall of man was necessary and the only means that man could obtain knowledge of good and evil. Without the fall there could be no death and without death man (including Christ) would not die. Thus we come to knowledge of evil. Through the selfless sacrifice of Christ in the atonement we are redeemed and come to know good. Note that good can only be experienced though the denial of and sacrifice of self - which is a natural condition (individual nature) of all intelligent sentient beings that must be overcome to be worthy and eligible of living eternally with G-d. Regardless of how pure we were having passed our first estate we were not worthy or capable of eternal life in G-d’s presents.

If a person sins and then repents there is only one possible reason. When they sinned they really did not know what they were doing. When they came to understand better (light of truth) they repented. Thus the reason for sin followed by repentance is as Eve said - that she was beguiled or tricked and regretted it once she understood in the light of truth. The scripture says that sin committed because of such ignorance that G-d will wink at and there can and will be forgiveness but for those that sin against or in the light of truth there is no forgiveness. I do not see the dual nature in this that you are talking about????

The Traveler

I believe our true nature is revealed by this experience, I never said anything against that. But, I do believe it is not revealing in the sense of the outer man, it is revealed to God who can judge our stewardship and what is expected from this fallen existence stewardship whereby we are given small things to see if we are capable of bigger. The small stewardship is in terms of a "fallen" state, smaller than where we were before in intelligence and capability so that specific aspects of our nature can be tested. The test is in terms of seeing what we do more than what we know. We never had a test of spiritual character like this one in which we are exposed to a carnal nature that we take as self and behind a veil of forgetfulness as to most of the things we learned well being in the presence of God for thousands of years (if not longer), which is to say a test while under the influence of a dual nature, a carnal (not self) and spirit (self) "contrasting nature" (as the prophet David O. Mckay puts it) test. I say it is a part of our nature that was not previously revealed otherwise this life would serve no testing purpose, it would just be a chance to hand out bodies and we know that is not the only purpose of this life.

In your understanding, what is the purpose of the veil? It seems that you believe that our spirits have innate flaws or tendencies to go against the word. This would be different than simply needing more time to develop. If a baby can't walk at 6 months old, that is not a flaw but because the baby has not yet developed that ability and it is expected.

Could I say that a 3 month old has a tendency to smoke pot? Why not? Because, fortunately, at that point the baby hasn't been exposed (I would hope) to that kind of choice. If there is such a tendency it has not yet been revealed. Likewise, there was nothing revealed as to our tendencies to choose something that we had not yet been exposed to before coming here. So, the 3 month old is innocent as to any future choice to fall into the trappings of selfish choice.

Sin is a step away from the current path one is on. It is moving away from the straight and narrow or letting go of the iron rod. None of us start out in the great and spacious building or on the winding misty road away from the straight and narrow. It is something that is revealed and developed when offered the choice.

If I go bowling with the side rails up I will never get a gutter ball and will never have to suffer the consequences of the gutter ball. On the scorecard it will never show that I had a gutter ball. And I would likely never try to correct a gutter ball tendency if all I ever played was bowling with the side rails up. If I never played with the side rails down, then I could never say that it was part of my tendency to play gutter ball even if I never hit the rails with the rails up. It could not be revealed until the rails are down. With the rails down I would be tested in a different way. I might get nervous and different than before I might reveal my gutter ball tendency that I never showed before.

This life is a test of faith which reveals our true character as to faith minded tendencies. We were never tested in such a way. That is not to say that we didn't have tests of faith but to say that we didn't have tests of faith behind a veil in which we had carnal drives that we took as self. The question that we have to ask ourselves is how is this test different that the first estate test and how is it that this experience reveals that thing that the first did not. In your proposed view, you are not offering any reasonable explanation of how this test is any different than the previous one as to you the spirit is the same here and there. I am, at least, offering you a reasonable explanation of why this test is different, because it is one in which we are exposed to a dual nature, carnal and spirit. Whereas, in the previous life we just had the spirit nature not the carnal. If it is true that we did not have the carnal nature before this world then where did the carnal nature come from? Hello!!!, from the carnal nature producing entity we now have, the body! This is a new test, not the same test done over again. If it is the same test then why do we need the veil? In your view you cannot explain the purpose of the veil.

Edited by Seminarysnoozer
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I believe our true nature is revealed by this experience, I never said anything against that. But, I do believe it is not revealing in the sense of the outer man, it is revealed to God who can judge our stewardship and what is expected from this fallen existence stewardship whereby we are given small things to see if we are capable of bigger. The small stewardship is in terms of a "fallen" state, smaller than where we were before in intelligence and capability so that specific aspects of our nature can be tested. The test is in terms of seeing what we do more than what we know. We never had a test of spiritual character like this one in which we are exposed to a carnal nature that we take as self and behind a veil of forgetfulness as to most of the things we learned well being in the presence of God for thousands of years (if not longer), which is to say a test while under the influence of a dual nature, a carnal (not self) and spirit (self) "contrasting nature" (as the prophet David O. Mckay puts it) test. I say it is a part of our nature that was not previously revealed otherwise this life would serve no testing purpose, it would just be a chance to hand out bodies and we know that is not the only purpose of this life.

In your understanding, what is the purpose of the veil? It seems that you believe that our spirits have innate flaws or tendencies to go against the word. This would be different than simply needing more time to develop. If a baby can't walk at 6 months old, that is not a flaw but because the baby has not yet developed that ability and it is expected.

Could I say that a 3 month old has a tendency to smoke pot? Why not? Because, fortunately, at that point the baby hasn't been exposed (I would hope) to that kind of choice. If there is such a tendency it has not yet been revealed. Likewise, there was nothing revealed as to our tendencies to choose something that we had not yet been exposed to before coming here. So, the 3 month old is innocent as to any future choice to fall into the trappings of selfish choice.

Sin is a step away from the current path one is on. It is moving away from the straight and narrow or letting go of the iron rod. None of us start out in the great and spacious building or on the winding misty road away from the straight and narrow. It is something that is revealed and developed when offered the choice.

If I go bowling with the side rails up I will never get a gutter ball and will never have to suffer the consequences of the gutter ball. On the scorecard it will never show that I had a gutter ball. And I would likely never try to correct a gutter ball tendency if all I ever played was bowling with the side rails up. If I never played with the side rails down, then I could never say that it was part of my tendency to play gutter ball even if I never hit the rails with the rails up. It could not be revealed until the rails are down. With the rails down I would be tested in a different way. I might get nervous and different than before I might reveal my gutter ball tendency that I never showed before.

This life is a test of faith which reveals our true character as to faith minded tendencies. We were never tested in such a way. That is not to say that we didn't have tests of faith but to say that we didn't have tests of faith behind a veil in which we had carnal drives that we took as self. The question that we have to ask ourselves is how is this test different that the first estate test and how is it that this experience reveals that thing that the first did not. In your proposed view, you are not offering any reasonable explanation of how this test is any different than the previous one as to you the spirit is the same here and there. I am, at least, offering you a reasonable explanation of why this test is different, because it is one in which we are exposed to a dual nature, carnal and spirit. Whereas, in the previous life we just had the spirit nature not the carnal. If it is true that we did not have the carnal nature before this world then where did the carnal nature come from? Hello!!!, from the carnal nature producing entity we now have, the body! This is a new test, not the same test done over again. If it is the same test then why do we need the veil? In your view you cannot explain the purpose of the veil.

I am not sure you read my post. I put forth the idea that the reason for the vail is so that we can live by faith and not by knowledge. The reason we live by faith and not by knowledge is so that there can be an atonement (forgiveness). Thus we can sin (tarnished by sin) - die and be forgiven because of ignorance in this life. Have you not wondered why we cannot be forgiven of sin after this life? The reason is that we can only be forgiven while we are living by faith - when we make choices based on knowledge - there can be no forgiveness.

The point of this life is to obtain knowledge of Good and Evil. It is my concern that from your understanding of being tested - there there is no fairness nor justice in how we are tested - because some are tested in a different manner than others - This cannot be if G-d is no respecter of persons. Also the scriptures are clear that the only way to receive blessings is by obedience to the specific principles upon which any particular blessing is predicated. How does someone - as you say - unexposed to a particular test, get the rewards?

Thus I see the purpose of this life is to achieve the knowledge between good and evil - and then with that knowledge and the freedom granted because of the Atonement of Christ, make a choice between good and evil. That is the test - the only test - that is the only purpose of mortality and the essence of the Plan of Happiness or Plan of Salvation.

I stated as clearly as I could that evil come from self indulgence. And that a spirit can be as inclined towards self as a spirit with a body. My proof was the Fall of Lucifer and his followers. There is no reason to believe that physical body is the reason someone sins. My personal experience is that there will by no sin committed by myself until my spirit is complicit and active in the act. By body acting on its own without my spirit has never even once sinned.

The Traveler

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I am not sure you read my post. I put forth the idea that the reason for the vail is so that we can live by faith and not by knowledge. The reason we live by faith and not by knowledge is so that there can be an atonement (forgiveness). Thus we can sin (tarnished by sin) - die and be forgiven because of ignorance in this life. Have you not wondered why we cannot be forgiven of sin after this life? The reason is that we can only be forgiven while we are living by faith - when we make choices based on knowledge - there can be no forgiveness.

The point of this life is to obtain knowledge of Good and Evil. It is my concern that from your understanding of being tested - there there is no fairness nor justice in how we are tested - because some are tested in a different manner than others - This cannot be if G-d is no respecter of persons. Also the scriptures are clear that the only way to receive blessings is by obedience to the specific principles upon which any particular blessing is predicated. How does someone - as you say - unexposed to a particular test, get the rewards?

Thus I see the purpose of this life is to achieve the knowledge between good and evil - and then with that knowledge and the freedom granted because of the Atonement of Christ, make a choice between good and evil. That is the test - the only test - that is the only purpose of mortality and the essence of the Plan of Happiness or Plan of Salvation.

I stated as clearly as I could that evil come from self indulgence. And that a spirit can be as inclined towards self as a spirit with a body. My proof was the Fall of Lucifer and his followers. There is no reason to believe that physical body is the reason someone sins. My personal experience is that there will by no sin committed by myself until my spirit is complicit and active in the act. By body acting on its own without my spirit has never even once sinned.

The Traveler

I never said the body is the reason someone sins, just the opportunity.

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I stated as clearly as I could that evil come from self indulgence. And that a spirit can be as inclined towards self as a spirit with a body. My proof was the Fall of Lucifer and his followers. There is no reason to believe that physical body is the reason someone sins. My personal experience is that there will by no sin committed by myself until my spirit is complicit and active in the act. By body acting on its own without my spirit has never even once sinned.

The Traveler

Again, the body is not the reason someone sins but the opportunity, the presentation of contrasting natures. It is the 'do I fall asleep or do I stay awake and pray for the Lord' contrasting natures that we face that reveals our true desire of the heart. Your "proof" fails to show the need for the body. You repeatedly say the body is not needed, that it can do nothing and yet we believe we need a body to be like God. Things that are acted upon cannot sin, I never said anything different. But, that doesn't mean that things that are acted upon cannot act on their own. The body is not judged and therefore cannot sin. What our spirit does with the stewardship of the body though, will be judged.

If I drive a car that has a bad alignment and pulls to the left, I can either let it pull me to the left and go off the road or I can pull against it so I can go straight. If the car went straight, there would be no test of my driving skills. I could just let it go on 'auto-pilot' so-to-speak. The natural man is an enemy to God for a reason. It is because it requires action against that to show our allegiance in this world.

Children of God do not have a natural inclination to sin. Don't sell yourself so short! This is absolutely not true. We want to be like God. We shouted for joy to have this opportunity to be more like God. I am not sure why you want to believe that spirit children of God are inclined to rebel. Those that were already separated out for such an inclination are not here as man. Man is inclined to rebel but that is because the definition of "man" is a mortal, corrupted, natural, carnal body and an eternal son/daughter of God spirit in combination. In that setting "man" is prone to sin and decline. But, if we are to talk about the spirit alone, it is one that passed the first estate test which is no small achievement as it is rewarded with eternal glory of some level. (Of course I am separating out the spirits that failed the first estate test as they would be no part of the definition of "man") By coming to this world all sin, in other words, by receiving a mortal, corrupted, carnal, sensual body all sin. You cannot separate those two issues. It is your choice only to believe that the spirit is naturally evil. I choose to not believe that, which makes it a lot easier to love my neighbor as myself and with the love that Christ had for the sinner. Maybe sing "I am a child of God" a few more times to let it really settle in.

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Again, the body is not the reason someone sins but the opportunity, the presentation of contrasting natures. It is the 'do I fall asleep or do I stay awake and pray for the Lord' contrasting natures that we face that reveals our true desire of the heart. Your "proof" fails to show the need for the body. You repeatedly say the body is not needed, that it can do nothing and yet we believe we need a body to be like God. Things that are acted upon cannot sin, I never said anything different. But, that doesn't mean that things that are acted upon cannot act on their own. The body is not judged and therefore cannot sin. What our spirit does with the stewardship of the body though, will be judged.

If I drive a car that has a bad alignment and pulls to the left, I can either let it pull me to the left and go off the road or I can pull against it so I can go straight. If the car went straight, there would be no test of my driving skills. I could just let it go on 'auto-pilot' so-to-speak. The natural man is an enemy to God for a reason. It is because it requires action against that to show our allegiance in this world.

Children of God do not have a natural inclination to sin. Don't sell yourself so short! This is absolutely not true. We want to be like God. We shouted for joy to have this opportunity to be more like God. I am not sure why you want to believe that spirit children of God are inclined to rebel. Those that were already separated out for such an inclination are not here as man. Man is inclined to rebel but that is because the definition of "man" is a mortal, corrupted, natural, carnal body and an eternal son/daughter of God spirit in combination. In that setting "man" is prone to sin and decline. But, if we are to talk about the spirit alone, it is one that passed the first estate test which is no small achievement as it is rewarded with eternal glory of some level. (Of course I am separating out the spirits that failed the first estate test as they would be no part of the definition of "man") By coming to this world all sin, in other words, by receiving a mortal, corrupted, carnal, sensual body all sin. You cannot separate those two issues. It is your choice only to believe that the spirit is naturally evil. I choose to not believe that, which makes it a lot easier to love my neighbor as myself and with the love that Christ had for the sinner. Maybe sing "I am a child of God" a few more times to let it really settle in.

Again it is simply not true that the only opportunities to sin come about because one has a body. The choice to sin is a spiritual choice and until one's spirit decides to sin a person cannot and will not sin. Two points:

First: Satan is the g-d of sin. One cannot sin without becoming subject to Satan and there is no sin that does not give him power over that person's spirit that sins. And this has nothing what-so-ever to do with a body - absolutely nothing and is 100% within an individual's spirit. It is the spirit that has power over the body (See Alma 34:34) The body does not have power over the spirit.

Second: There can be no sin without the spirit of a person initiating and choosing the sin. Contemplate carefully what Jesus taught - "As a man thinks in his heart; so is he" and "he that looks upon another and lust after them has already commited adultry in their heart."

Now to the importance of receiving a body - I will give you 2 reasons:

#1. It is necessary to have a body and experience the death of the body in order to have knowledge of good and evil. Without a body one cannot have knowledge of good and evil.

#2. With a body come great power. For example, a body is necessary to be a G-d and have children.

One last thought that I will give only as my personal opinion - it appears to me that the only advantage or benefit in eternity of having a body is if a spirit seeks after that which is good. It does seem to me that an evil spirit will destroy a body and will always cause death of the physical body. That the only way that spirit can possess a body to have and maintain life is upon divine principles of righteousness.

The Traveler

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Again it is simply not true that the only opportunities to sin come about because one has a body. The choice to sin is a spiritual choice and until one's spirit decides to sin a person cannot and will not sin. Two points:

First: Satan is the g-d of sin. One cannot sin without becoming subject to Satan and there is no sin that does not give him power over that person's spirit that sins. And this has nothing what-so-ever to do with a body - absolutely nothing and is 100% within an individual's spirit. It is the spirit that has power over the body (See Alma 34:34) The body does not have power over the spirit.

Second: There can be no sin without the spirit of a person initiating and choosing the sin. Contemplate carefully what Jesus taught - "As a man thinks in his heart; so is he" and "he that looks upon another and lust after them has already commited adultry in their heart."

Now to the importance of receiving a body - I will give you 2 reasons:

#1. It is necessary to have a body and experience the death of the body in order to have knowledge of good and evil. Without a body one cannot have knowledge of good and evil.

#2. With a body come great power. For example, a body is necessary to be a G-d and have children.

One last thought that I will give only as my personal opinion - it appears to me that the only advantage or benefit in eternity of having a body is if a spirit seeks after that which is good. It does seem to me that an evil spirit will destroy a body and will always cause death of the physical body. That the only way that spirit can possess a body to have and maintain life is upon divine principles of righteousness.

The Traveler

Did I write "only" anywhere? Why do you seem to take what I say as an all or nothing statement?

There is a difference between opportunity and choice. The opportunity and the choice are two different things. After Jesus fasted for 40 days and nights He was tempted with bodily things, food, power, fame. Just because He was presented with these things does not mean He sinned. Satan was given power over things of this world to bruise the heel of man. The body is of this world, the dust of this world. So, Satan has his influence via the body. Therefore, being subject to the body is being subject to Satan, like you said. I don't disagree with you there except the idea that you are missing how it is done. By me saying it is via the body does not disagree with anything you are saying in this post.

If the spirit chooses carnal over spiritual then the spirit is changed. And, like the verse you mentioned, whatever spirit or what is in the heart when we leave this world will stay with us in the next. In other words, if our heart is turned toward the influences of the body (worldly carnal lusts) then it will continue to have that desire after. This is why the war in heaven was such a contested battle - why go to Earth and risk the chance of changing our nature, changing what we desire. We knew that some would turn towards the things of this world and lust after them - they would change their heart and be tempted by them. You think the people in the spacious building started out there? They were born there because their spirits were that way to begin with? It is because they were lured their while in their mortal state, being influenced by things that are carnal (Satanic).

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not saying everything the body does is evil or carnal. When we master those things then it becomes a temple and a holy place. Just like any tool is not inherently evil or good, like a gun or a car which can kill people but also do much good. But a person cannot shoot someone and commit murder in that way without a gun or a person cannot drive drunk and kill someone without a car. The opportunity does not exist without those tools. It is not the car or the gun that commits the murder but they do offer the opportunity. The body is similar, it is the opportunity to know good and evil. What we do with it will reveal our true spiritual nature. And that nature continues with our spirit into the next.

It is in the doing that we are judged in this world and not just in the words from our mouth. We already stated that we would obey his word in faith as part of the first estate test. That was also a test of faith but here the difference is a test of doing what we said we would do when presented with another option, that of carnal desires. Do you think we faced a test of carnal desires in the pre-mortal world?

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  • 3 weeks later...

After reading your posts about why do bad things happen to 'good' people, I remembered one of my favourite books- One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. This fantastic book showed me that sometimes mentally ill people are stronger and better than the 'healthy''ones! Prosperity and peace will come to us because of people’s obedience to Jesus commandments!

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Again it is simply not true that the only opportunities to sin come about because one has a body. The choice to sin is a spiritual choice and until one's spirit decides to sin a person cannot and will not sin. Two points:

First: Satan is the g-d of sin. One cannot sin without becoming subject to Satan and there is no sin that does not give him power over that person's spirit that sins. And this has nothing what-so-ever to do with a body - absolutely nothing and is 100% within an individual's spirit. It is the spirit that has power over the body (See Alma 34:34) The body does not have power over the spirit.

Second: There can be no sin without the spirit of a person initiating and choosing the sin. Contemplate carefully what Jesus taught - "As a man thinks in his heart; so is he" and "he that looks upon another and lust after them has already commited adultry in their heart."

Now to the importance of receiving a body - I will give you 2 reasons:

#1. It is necessary to have a body and experience the death of the body in order to have knowledge of good and evil. Without a body one cannot have knowledge of good and evil.

#2. With a body come great power. For example, a body is necessary to be a G-d and have children.

One last thought that I will give only as my personal opinion - it appears to me that the only advantage or benefit in eternity of having a body is if a spirit seeks after that which is good. It does seem to me that an evil spirit will destroy a body and will always cause death of the physical body. That the only way that spirit can possess a body to have and maintain life is upon divine principles of righteousness.

The Traveler

Re top paragraph: Possibly thoughts in the Spirit World are not sin. Otherwise, The Father's house would not have been without sin. To sin may require a body since a physical body is required to influence matter. {Sticks and Stones may break my bones etc.} However, the spirit does control the body when it gets one, so in that sense, the spirit can sin. See Cain comment below.

Re "First Paragraph": We are all subject to Satan, whether we sin or not, because he influences us in the same way but in an opposite direction as the Holy Spirit. As we sin, we become more inclined to sin more. The body is simply another avenue to go wrong since carnal temptations are available through it. Don't be so hard on the body: Lust is needed for procreation and the body must be fed to be preserved for its tasks on this world. Your body is a natural part of this physical world. It is in the excesses that the damage is done - but that is your choice - not Satan's.

Re 2nd": If the second sentence is true, we are all doomed and there is no point in fighting. Thought is necessary to weigh the options: if you cannot think about something, you cannot act according to your agency. Rather, it is the action that counts and that action requires a body.

Re #1: We can certainly know good and evil without a body. We had knowledge of good and evil in the Pre-existence. It was the choice to follow Lucifer that was our first real opportunity to "sin". And some were kicked out as a result. A body is required to sin: a spirit cannot. Cain certainly had bad thoughts in the Pre-existence. Yet, he came to earth and started out as innocent as the rest of us. It was his bad spirit, the same one as he had before, that caused him and his body to follow Satan. Can Satan sin?

Re#2: The body gives us the ability to influence matter. God with His wife could have children but they were only spirit children. They were incomplete and unable to sin and could not be made complete without a body. The body is necessary to have the complete power over this universe. The spirit is the motivator.

Re "last thought": Bodies are good. All that come to earth get a degree of "glory" - Telestial, Terrestrial, of Celestial. Even Cain gets to rule over Satan because Cain has his body. All our second estate spirits now have bodies and the Atonement guarantees that we will have them forever no matter what stage of "sin" we are in. If you mean our current mortal body, yes, the spirit can destroy it just like we can destroy our car by driving it into a wall. Your choice.

My last thought: since we have agency to act for ourselves, and since this world is a time of trial and testing, we should spend more time helping others to get through this world than cursing the sins and natural lusts of our own bodies. Look outward, not inward. Thus, it is better to be kind than to be perfect. See also the "Golden Rule".

Edited by Upcountry
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