The Quest for Perfection becomes Quest for Purefection

[Pain-of-Salvation]

Matthew 5:48: King James Version (KJV)

48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Wouldn't the made up word "purefection" be more appropriate than "perfection" as we know it's not possible to be perfect? Or is it?

When I feel close to Heavenly Father, when I feel pure, I feel in those moments I had seconds of "perfection". The pure peace of God inside makes me feel perfect (not in a braggy prideful way of course)....If we bridged those seconds of feeling perfect with other seconds of the same feeling, can we attain perfection?

I, even the optimist, say no because we live in an Entropy, a world that naturally is in entropy, in a state of decay. The natural man wants to come out and "play" in the natural world, the random impure thoughts that come due to physical bodies, the pride that comes in when we compare things with others, the gossip.....

Maybe what that verse is trying to tell us is we can be perfect in different areas. If someone offends you, can you be perfect in forgiveness? In the smallest examples of life, can we apply perfect principles perfectly? In temptations, can we use the perfect tools of will and obedience to ward them off?

Anyway, what are your thoughts on perfection?

[Dravin]

Wouldn't the made up word "purefection" be more appropriate than "perfection" as we know it's not possible to be perfect? Or is it?

One thing to keep in mind is the word translated as perfection may be rendered as completion ( Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon ), the footnotes in the LDS edition of the scriptures point that out as well ( Matthew 5:48 ) Additionally the word perfection can also be rendered as pure or complete (Perfect - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary). So it's something to keep in mind that the scripture is not telling us to be without flaw, but to become complete or finished as the Father is.

With that in mind I personally think we need to remember that the scripture is not necessarily speaking of a commandment that will be fulfilled in this life. Quite a few LDS consider resurrection to be part of the completion spoken of (reasoning rooted in how in 3 Nephi 12:48, after his resurrection, Christ includes himself). If such is the case the scripture clearly isn't speaking about fulfilling it in this life.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Dravin

[Anddenex]

I would recommend this talk given by our President Lorenzo Snow, which was published in our October Ensign 1971, "Blessings of the Gospel Only Obtained by Compliance to the Law." Great talk and I would encourage you to read the article.

Here are a few excerpts from this talk:

The Lord proposes to confer the highest blessings upon the Latter-day Saints; but, like Abraham, we must prepare ourselves for them, and to do this the same law that was given to him of the Lord has been given to us for our observance. We also are required to arrive at a state of perfection before the Lord; and the Lord in this case, the same as in every other, has not made a requirement that cannot be complied with, but on the other hand, He has placed for the use of the Latter-day Saints the means by which they can conform to His holy order.

When the Lord made this requirement of Abraham, He gave him the means by which he could become qualified to obey that law and come up fully to the requirement. He had the privilege of the Holy Spirit, as we are told the Gospel was preached to Abraham, and through that Gospel he could obtain that divine aid which would enable him to understand the things of God, and without it no man could arrive at a state of perfection before the Lord.

So in reference to the Latter-day Saints, they could not possibly come up to such a moral and spiritual standard except through supernatural aid and assistance. Neither do we expect that the Latter-day Saints, at once will or can conform to this law under all circumstances. It requires time; it requires much patience and discipline of the mind and heart in order to obey this commandment. And although we may fail at first in our attempts, yet this should not discourage the Latter-day Saints from endeavoring to exercise a determination to comply with the great requirement.

But we are subject to folly, to the weakness of the flesh, and we are more or less ignorant, thereby liable to err. Yes, but that is no reason why we should not feel desirous to comply with this command of God, especially seeing that he has placed within our reach the means of accomplishing this work. This I understand is the meaning of the word perfection, as expressed by our Savior and by the Lord to Abraham. A person may be perfect in regard to some things and not others. A person who obeys the word of wisdom faithfully, is perfect as far as that law is concerned. When we repented of our sins and were baptized for the remission of them, we were perfect as far as that matter was concerned. Now we are told by the Apostle John, that we are “the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

“And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he [Christ] is pure.” [1 Jn. 3:2–3.]

The Latter-day Saints expect to arrive at this state of perfection; we expect to become as our Father and God, fit and worthy children to dwell in his presence; we expect that when the Son of God shall appear, we shall receive our bodies renewed and glorified, and that these vile bodies will be changed and become like unto his glorious body. [see Philip. 3:21.] These are our expectations.

[ElectofGod]

Wouldn't the made up word "purefection" be more appropriate than "perfection" as we know it's not possible to be perfect? Or is it?

There is some good stuff in the lorenzo snow material.

Each and everyone of us must achieve perfection or be damned (like the tel terrestial worlds people are damned because they cannot achieve further progress of those that are in the celestial world, stop of progress). Why are we going from line upon line, precept to precept, grace to grace, exaltation to exaltation? Because as the Lorenzo snow mentions

A person who obeys the word of wisdom faithfully, is perfect as far as that law is concerned

We are perfect from the given laws. Thus we progress from law to law until we attain perfection. (Think endowment) This life is to learn perfection to the degree we are called upon (laws given to us). All things are possible with God to the willing soul. Even if we are eons away from the perfection of God we can through his infinite knowledge and a willing heart that doesn't break the unpardonable sin (breaking of covenants) can attain to perfection.

Joseph Smith taught, we must learn our exaltation even beyond the veil, also in d&C "the person that gains more knowledge through his faith and obedience has a greater advantage in the world to come". I believe this refers to us being closer to perfection.

We do not learn everything now. So how do we get there? The same way every God before us has done so. From grace to grace. Suffering brings perfection. That is why we suffer.

Telestial World -> one overcomes through Justificaton, Washings

Terrestial World -> one overcomes through Santification, Anointings

Celestial World -> one overcomes through purification (the work of perfection), Sealings

The Journey – Receiving our Endowment | Journey to the Fullness

Edited July 8, 2013 by ElectofGod

[Seminarysnoozer]

There is some good stuff in the lorenzo snow material.

Each and everyone of us must achieve perfection or be damned (like the tel terrestial worlds people are damned because they cannot achieve further progress of those that are in the celestial world, stop of progress). Why are we going from line upon line, precept to precept, grace to grace, exaltation to exaltation? Because as the Lorenzo snow mentions

We are perfect from the given laws. Thus we progress from law to law until we attain perfection. (Think endowment) This life is to learn perfection to the degree we are called upon (laws given to us). All things are possible with God to the willing soul. Even if we are eons away from the perfection of God we can through his infinite knowledge and a willing heart that doesn't break the unpardonable sin (breaking of covenants) can attain to perfection.

Joseph Smith taught, we must learn our exaltation even beyond the veil, also in d&C "the person that gains more knowledge through his faith and obedience has a greater advantage in the world to come". I believe this refers to us being closer to perfection.

We do not learn everything now. So how do we get there? The same way every God before us has done so. From grace to grace. Suffering brings perfection. That is why we suffer.

Telestial World -> one overcomes through Justificaton, Washings

Terrestial World -> one overcomes through Santification, Anointings

Celestial World -> one overcomes through purification (the work of perfection), Sealings

The Journey – Receiving our Endowment | Journey to the Fullness

Don't forget that Christ' atonement satisfies the law.

The goal here is to not suffer. D&C 19; " 16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;"

D&C 88; " 106 And again, another angel shall sound his trump, which is the seventh angel, saying: It is finished; it is finished! The Lamb of God hath overcome and trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

107 And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him"

and " ...114 And then cometh the battle of the great God; and the devil and his armies shall be cast away into their own place, that they shall not have power over the saints any more at all."

The question is, what do you think Christ has done for you vicariously that you cannot do for yourself in the journey of perfection?

What did he do for a baby that lives one hour in this world and is immediately a candidate for the Celestial Kingdom? I don't know about you but I don't remember anything about my first hour of life and would not call that suffering at all and yet they that die early are Celestial. Babies that die are not affected by Satan and they are Celestial candidates and Satan has no power over any of the saints after the end of this world, so the "suffering brings perfection" for those individuals is only in terms of Christ suffering, vicariously for them so they don't have to. Just realize that when you say "we suffer" it is nothing compared to Christ' suffering for us - that is real suffering, so that we do not have to suffer. D&C 19 "17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—"

Faith in Christ (that He really did suffer for us so we don't have to) and Repentance is needed for perfection, not suffering like Christ (as there is no other kind of suffering that compares to what He did).

[ElectofGod]

Don't forget that Christ' atonement satisfies the law.

The goal here is to not suffer. D&C 19; " 16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;"

D&C 88; " 106 And again, another angel shall sound his trump, which is the seventh angel, saying: It is finished; it is finished! The Lamb of God hath overcome and trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

107 And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their inheritance and be made equal with him"

and " ...114 And then cometh the battle of the great God; and the devil and his armies shall be cast away into their own place, that they shall not have power over the saints any more at all."

The question is, what do you think Christ has done for you vicariously that you cannot do for yourself in the journey of perfection?

What did he do for a baby that lives one hour in this world and is immediately a candidate for the Celestial Kingdom? I don't know about you but I don't remember anything about my first hour of life and would not call that suffering at all and yet they that die early are Celestial. Babies that die are not affected by Satan and they are Celestial candidates and Satan has no power over any of the saints after the end of this world, so the "suffering brings perfection" for those individuals is only in terms of Christ suffering, vicariously for them so they don't have to. Just realize that when you say "we suffer" it is nothing compared to Christ' suffering for us - that is real suffering, so that we do not have to suffer. D&C 19 "17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—"

Faith in Christ (that He really did suffer for us so we don't have to) and Repentance is needed for perfection, not suffering like Christ (as there is no other kind of suffering that compares to what He did).

I see exactly what you are saying and I used to think like this. My thoughts have changed recently. I don't have the knowledge to expound scriptures to show my point. But I will briefly explain it.

He really did suffer for us so we don't have to

D&C 19 "17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

There are two degrees of this.

a) a wicked man who does not repent must suffer to overcome it STILL to receive forgiveness

b) Those who repented enough to become "those who Christ's sins bore", otherwards celestial, yet they still must suffer.

The first is reaching the point to enter the path, the straight and narrow, to receive ones baptism by fire and the holy ghost. Than they will have received a remission of their sins and continue to cleans their blood through Christ. They who do not repent, "must still suffer" to overcome that which they did not else they will not receive a forgiveness.

Those who do overcome, still suffer and must do so. Here they allowed Christ bore (bear) them up to the point they are free from sin. They are not sinless but are free from its bondage. They still suffer through their own sins. They still must suffer to perfect themselves. They must "sacrifice all things" to gain an exaltation. From exaltation to exaltation until they attain the resurrection of the dead and can dwell in everlasting burnings (King Follet Discourse)

The reason WHY Christ had to suffer in Gethsemane is because that is what perfected him. The 40 day fast is a type of suffering of perfection. Its a type of him subjecting his flesh to the spirit to such a degree that it caused his stomach to bleed (at least it would for us), to feed upon itself. His suffering in Gethsemane is a type of how he forgave us and caused the heavens to have mercy and grace have take on all those who would accept. Thus its a type of how we gain forgiveness for ourselves. There are multiple meanings for suffering and it can come in more forms than just pain and anguish.

What does it mean to go from grace to grace?

“And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at first, but received grace for grace. And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness.” In other words, Jesus grew in grace (light, truth, power, and perfection) by giving grace (service and blessings to others). We progress from one grace to another by giving grace to others.

Grace is to get grace on the condition of giving grace.

“For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.”

What do these have in common? While suffering accelerates our learning and progression and shows us who we really are in ALL circumstances, it is not quite the same as simply service. One we are requiring grace another we are giving grace. Except in Gethsemane Christ was not only receiving it but giving it in behalf of us. We can too! How?

Being a savior on mount Zion. Being an intercessory for all is how we practice this principle. I have come to realize the importance of this in all we do. We should be acting as intercessories as much as we are capable and able to do so for others. In our prayers, they should be directed towards others. In our acts, they should be directed towards others, in our suffering they should direct us towards God or others (Charity).

My thoughts in this are new so my understanding may be off quite a bit. So here we have the other half of this picture. Suffering perfects but also does giving grace. It was a little off tangent.

So what of those new borns? The children who die? All the others that seem to suffer?

a) They are suffering because they are not repenting.

b) They are not suffering because they ALREADY learned the principle behind it. I ask how? If we can only learn things through a body? Being here? If this is the life to know god? How did they before coming here?

c) They are still required to suffer equally to the point that is required, thus they suffer than the rest is up to us. If we don't repent we will suffer UNTIL we do so, than we will progress to the next level of grace. UNLESS we have voided our rights to do so by breaking eternal covenants that have been entered than broken. Stopped our progression where there is no forgiveness in the world to come but still receive an exaltation.

Hope I am making sense. Its a little cluttered.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I see exactly what you are saying and I used to think like this. My thoughts have changed recently. I don't have the knowledge to expound scriptures to show my point. But I will briefly explain it.

There are two degrees of this.

a) a wicked man who does not repent must suffer to overcome it STILL to receive forgiveness

b) Those who repented enough to become "those who Christ's sins bore", otherwards celestial, yet they still must suffer.

The first is reaching the point to enter the path, the straight and narrow, to receive ones baptism by fire and the holy ghost. Than they will have received a remission of their sins and continue to cleans their blood through Christ. They who do not repent, "must still suffer" to overcome that which they did not else they will not receive a forgiveness.

Those who do overcome, still suffer and must do so. Here they allowed Christ bore (bear) them up to the point they are free from sin. They are not sinless but are free from its bondage. They still suffer through their own sins. They still must suffer to perfect themselves. They must "sacrifice all things" to gain an exaltation. From exaltation to exaltation until they attain the resurrection of the dead and can dwell in everlasting burnings (King Follet Discourse)

The reason WHY Christ had to suffer in Gethsemane is because that is what perfected him. The 40 day fast is a type of suffering of perfection. Its a type of him subjecting his flesh to the spirit to such a degree that it caused his stomach to bleed (at least it would for us), to feed upon itself. His suffering in Gethsemane is a type of how he forgave us and caused the heavens to have mercy and grace have take on all those who would accept. Thus its a type of how we gain forgiveness for ourselves. There are multiple meanings for suffering and it can come in more forms than just pain and anguish.

What does it mean to go from grace to grace?

“And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at first, but received grace for grace. And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness.” In other words, Jesus grew in grace (light, truth, power, and perfection) by giving grace (service and blessings to others). We progress from one grace to another by giving grace to others.

Grace is to get grace on the condition of giving grace.

“For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.”

What do these have in common? While suffering accelerates our learning and progression and shows us who we really are in ALL circumstances, it is not quite the same as simply service. One we are requiring grace another we are giving grace. Except in Gethsemane Christ was not only receiving it but giving it in behalf of us. We can too! How?

Being a savior on mount Zion. Being an intercessory for all is how we practice this principle. I have come to realize the importance of this in all we do. We should be acting as intercessories as much as we are capable and able to do so for others. In our prayers, they should be directed towards others. In our acts, they should be directed towards others, in our suffering they should direct us towards God or others (Charity).

My thoughts in this are new so my understanding may be off quite a bit. So here we have the other half of this picture. Suffering perfects but also does giving grace. It was a little off tangent.

So what of those new borns? The children who die? All the others that seem to suffer?

a) They are suffering because they are not repenting.

b) They are not suffering because they ALREADY learned the principle behind it. I ask how? If we can only learn things through a body? Being here? If this is the life to know god? How did they before coming here?

c) They are still required to suffer equally to the point that is required, thus they suffer than the rest is up to us. If we don't repent we will suffer UNTIL we do so, than we will progress to the next level of grace. UNLESS we have voided our rights to do so by breaking eternal covenants that have been entered than broken. Stopped our progression where there is no forgiveness in the world to come but still receive an exaltation.

Hope I am making sense. Its a little cluttered.

Thanks,

Many of the things you are quoting are mixed discussions about this life and may not be talking about the next. You originally made the comment that we may not learn everything in this life and so how do we get there in the next? That is when you stated that we get there like God does, by suffering.

I was hoping to focus the comments on after this life is over, or at least, after the second estate is over. That is why I quoted the scriptures about Christ fulfilling His suffering so the saints don't have to suffer any more. It isn't fair to quote things about before we finish the second estate because you and I were commenting on after, the process of continuing to grow and learn. I don't see anything in the scriptures or teaching elsewhere that says that "suffering" is part of what anyone will do in the Celestial, Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdoms as they are degrees of glory. If suffering is such an important part of continued expansion then one would have to say that God is now suffering.

I believe the suffering is only part of the second estate process. That is why it is important to bring up the children who die before the age of 8, as they bypass the second estate process and yet we all would assume that they also learn and grow. So, it is not necessary to suffer to grow. Christ can vicariously suffer for us and that is all that is "needed". That doesn't mean that people will not otherwise suffer, we are just talking about what is required to progress. Christ' suffering is sufficient for the step through the second estate process. And after that there is no other suffering, the suffering test is over, there is no need to repeat it.

If you have knowledge of any suffering going on in the Celestial Kingdom or the Terrestrial for that matter I would like to see it.

From Elder Pearson, "May we ever remember and understand that we need not suffer if we would constantly repent and come unto the Saviour of the World. I testify of Jesus Christ. He is the Saviour and Redeemer of all mankind. I know that my Redeemer lives."

And “In the world ye shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).

As a woman, Jesus' metaphor of what happens to our sorrow and suffering after this life is very strong; " 20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world."

The joy overpowers the suffering and we remember it no more.

[ElectofGod]

Ah ok I see now. My thoughts were said in a round about way. The reason is what I truly believe about the next life is personal, opinion, and not meant for public discussion.

You are right, suffering is a telestial world thing only (without glory, the world which we now live). But what is this world for? To prepare us to be like God? Or to prove ourselves in all things? Or to prove to ourselves who we ARE, are really ARE? Are We trying to find the deity within ourselves? Whats the purpose in this life of suffering if it doesn't perfect us? What did Christ have to suffer for us? What is its purpose? Some are able to some are never able to find that deity within themselves and connect to the holy spirit making them one with God. Like satan who progressed next to adam in the pre-existence but decided through rebellion to cease his progression. Cast out into a world without glory.

I see it this way

Celestial: Increasing State

Terrestial: Everything stays the same

Telestial: Degenerates

Also, there are orders higher than the celestial realm which one must progress too. The process we become like God, is the same that has been done in other worlds, one eternal round, Eternal life, Eternal Lives... otherwise one inherits eternal deaths. (D&C 132). All I will say is this. Going back to the OP.

Do we expect to become something if we have not done what they themselves has not done? Do we expect to be able to become a God yet not sacrifice all things? As said by JS that we must do in Lectures on Faith (I think part 6). Now I'll just end with the king follet discourse and leave it at that. Which I summarized above already.

This is what I believe. Its my opinion nothing more. Even though I am vague in that. This is all taught (as I SEE it) in the endowment.

What kind of being is God? Does any man or woman know? Have any of you seen Him, heard Him, or communed with Him? Here is the question that will, peradventure, from this time henceforth occupy your attention. The scriptures inform us that “this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3.)

If any man does not know God, and inquires what kind of a being He is—if he will search diligently his own heart—if the declaration of Jesus and the apostles be true, he will realize that he has not eternal life; for there can be eternal life on no other principle.

Eternal Life to Know God and Jesus Christ

I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon!) The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another [whats the 'another' degree we get?, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming His name, is not trifling with you or me.

The Righteous to Dwell in Everlasting Burnings

These are the first principles of consolation. How consoling to the mourners when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child, or dear relative, to know that, although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more, but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a god, and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said.

When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.

There are way to many views on what this all means so this is why I am not commenting on it. At least not here.

Edited July 18, 2013 by ElectofGod

[Seminarysnoozer]

Ah ok I see now. My thoughts were said in a round about way. The reason is what I truly believe about the next life is personal, opinion, and not meant for public discussion.

You are right, suffering is a telestial world thing only (without glory, the world which we now live). But what is this world for? To prepare us to be like God? Or to prove ourselves in all things? Or to prove to ourselves who we ARE, are really ARE? Are We trying to find the deity within ourselves? Whats the purpose in this life of suffering if it doesn't perfect us? What did Christ have to suffer for us? What is its purpose? Some are able to some are never able to find that deity within themselves and connect to the holy spirit making them one with God. Like satan who progressed next to adam in the pre-existence but decided through rebellion to cease his progression. Cast out into a world without glory.

I see it this way

Celestial: Increasing State

Terrestial: Everything stays the same

Telestial: Degenerates

Also, there are orders higher than the celestial realm which one must progress too. The process we become like God, is the same that has been done in other worlds, one eternal round, Eternal life, Eternal Lives... otherwise one inherits eternal deaths. (D&C 132). All I will say is this. Going back to the OP.

Do we expect to become something if we have not done what they themselves has not done? Do we expect to be able to become a God yet not sacrifice all things? As said by JS that we must do in Lectures on Faith (I think part 6). Now I'll just end with the king follet discourse and leave it at that. Which I summarized above already.

This is what I believe. Its my opinion nothing more. Even though I am vague in that. This is all taught (as I SEE it) in the endowment.

There are way to many views on what this all means so this is why I am not commenting on it. At least not here.

The Celestial effect of one eternal round after another is obtained when one can learn to live vicariously. When one loves his neighbor as his self then everything the neighbor does is as if the person has done it himself. I think one thing we all try to move away from when we have faith in Christ is the perception of 'if I don't do it for myself nobody will'. Lucifer was stuck on this problem, he couldn't get past the idea that he would have to depend on someone else, a savior as he thought then the glory would go to that person and not himself. He wanted to do it himself so he could claim all the glory. What makes the Telestial world telestial is that it is made up of many individuals, as one star differ from another and separated in space. Whereas, true joy and happiness is one, like the sun. There must be a reason faith in Christ is something important to learn as opposed to faith in self and personal achievement. Personal achievement is great but it is limiting. Shared achievement is much greater and eternal.

We do funny things in our religion, one of which is to do things vicariously. But, anyone who is christian should understand this principle, to do an act for someone else as if they did it for their self as that is what Christ did for us. Christ being the center of our religion, this is one of the most important principles to learn, which is the ability to, by faith in Him, receive what He did for us as if it is our own. He suffered for us so we don't have to and we can move on to greater things. We can inherit the Kingdom. Inheritance is different than earning or creating or building up to that point. It is a jump up from where one was, receiving things that were not made or achieved by self.

If I worked in my father's company for many years and earned $500,000 and then purchased the company from him, I would not call that inheritance. But if I worked hard and then reached a point where my father was willing to co-own everything with me when it was time, joint ownership, then that I could call inheritance or a gift. If my decedents and I never died and we kept co-owning everything, round after round, then my ownership would be infinite. But, if my ownership is only based on what I purchase from someone else, taking away their ownership, then my future is limited.

In the Celestial Kingdom we can be happy for the success of others as if it was our own 100%. That is the thing to learn from Christ. Yet, some still would rather try to "earn" it on their own.

[ElectofGod]

I can't tell if I agree with your post or not. You stated it clearly but I am not sure how you are applying it to the eternities. I can see a way I would agree with it and a way I would not.

Do we live vicariously forever and ever through Christ? Or do we ever have to overcome things we currently haven't later on? How is that done? When does it happen? What happens when we get to the Celestial kingdom? How do we progress? Where are we trying to get to? How many estates are there? What do we do when we become as God? How do we have children? Were do we have children? Do we have physical or spiritual children? How do we raise physical children in the eternities? Also spiritual children? Were will we beget these children? How does one qualify to create worlds?etc...

I don't expect you to answer all those. Just some thought.

Edited July 20, 2013 by ElectofGod

[Seminarysnoozer]

I can't tell if I agree with your post or not. You stated it clearly but I am not sure how you are applying it to the eternities. I can see a way I would agree with it and a way I would not.

Do we live vicariously forever and ever through Christ? Or do we ever have to overcome things we currently haven't later on? How is that done? When does it happen? What happens when we get to the Celestial kingdom? How do we progress? Where are we trying to get to? How many estates are there? What do we do when we become as God? How do we have children? Were do we have children? Do we have physical or spiritual children? How do we raise physical children in the eternities? Also spiritual children? Were will we beget these children? How does one qualify to create worlds?etc...

I don't expect you to answer all those. Just some thought.

The question to your questions would be; why would we have to overcome it again if Christ overcomes the world (and every evil thing in it) for us? That would be a belief that His vicarious work was worthless. To me, that is the opposite of having faith in Christ. If Christ receives all that the Father has and Christ has invited us to be one with Him and thus one with the Father, what thing does the Father have that Christ doesn't? And, if a person were to become one with Christ, what thing would the Father have that that person would not have? The story of the prodigal son illustrates the potential to have all the Father has, as a gift, not earned by individual effort but as a shared inheritance. The idea that the God is God by individual merit is a Telestial based thought. We know that that is not true.

And another question would be; do you think there is any evil, whatsoever, in the Telestial or Terrestrial kingdoms? or are they truly kingdoms of glory? If there is no external source of evil, what has to be overcome? (or the Celestial for that matter)

This is the life for change. I don't think God, in his final judgement, will judge wrong. He wouldn't put a person in the Terrestrial Kingdom knowing that they are really Celestial by nature. One proof of that is what happens to those that die before the age of 8. Not every soul has to pass through this life of tribulation as a test to determine what kingdom they want or merit as there is no test for those that die before the age of 8. The ones that live beyond the age of 8 are given a period of time to make a change but after that there is no time for that kind of thing.

Your other questions pertain to God's work. You are right, they can't be answered as God's work is unmeasurable and without end and unknown to us. The part we do know, is that His work and glory is to bring to pass the Eternal life of man.

Look at D&C 76; " 98 And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;" Isn't it interesting that that is the only Kingdom of the three in which there is a description of differing glories as one differs from another? ... I find that very interesting.

[Roseslipper]

Sorry I dont have the time to read all the posts. to become perfect is our journey if we choose 2 seek this...I dont think we can become perfect in all things in this life.....but we an strive to overcome our faults, weakness, put off the natural man, as we strive to become who we really are..the spiritual man as we take steps forward we will find ourselves more happier, have more peace....

We need to have hope that we can do this and learn to put our faith and trust in ourselves, but we cant do it alone...but with the Lord we will be able to do this and anythig, but it might not be finished in our mortal life time....

Edited July 23, 2013 by Roseslipper

[Traveler]

Matthew 5:48: King James Version (KJV)

48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Wouldn't the made up word "purefection" be more appropriate than "perfection" as we know it's not possible to be perfect? Or is it?

When I feel close to Heavenly Father, when I feel pure, I feel in those moments I had seconds of "perfection". The pure peace of God inside makes me feel perfect (not in a braggy prideful way of course)....If we bridged those seconds of feeling perfect with other seconds of the same feeling, can we attain perfection?

I, even the optimist, say no because we live in an Entropy, a world that naturally is in entropy, in a state of decay. The natural man wants to come out and "play" in the natural world, the random impure thoughts that come due to physical bodies, the pride that comes in when we compare things with others, the gossip.....

Maybe what that verse is trying to tell us is we can be perfect in different areas. If someone offends you, can you be perfect in forgiveness? In the smallest examples of life, can we apply perfect principles perfectly? In temptations, can we use the perfect tools of will and obedience to ward them off?

Anyway, what are your thoughts on perfection?

Sometimes I think we miss the forest for all the trees. I believe Darvin is correct in his response. Perhaps it is in trying to explain all the details that we create such confusion - in other words -- the devil is in the details.

So we try to justify our understandings of some particular part of theology and explain away principles that in essence are part of perfection. Our mortal physical bodies are part of the makeup of the "natural man" that is the enemy of G-d but perhaps the point that is being made in scripture is that the reality is that it does not have to be that way.

Repentance does not exist as part of the landscape of the natural man that is the enemy of G-d. The simple truth is that through repentance we put off the natural man and become a saint - perfect and clean from the blood and sins of the world.

Contrary to what some seem to preach in their theology - we do not have to be resurrected in order to repent and become a saint made perfect by the atonement of Christ and it appears to me that the creator of this thread, Plan of Salvation, experienced this great miracle in their moments of perfection through the power of G-d - as can we all.

The point is that we ought to repent and be perfect. This is better that arguing some point of a particular doctrine we find interesting. Thus it is that perfect cannot be found in some doctrine or even in some point we would like to make. We are perfect through repentance.

The Traveler