Families Can Be Together Forever...

[sgallan]

*** My point about what are you doing here was that you obviously don't agree with the church, so why are you here? ****

Conversation. And because people - like you perhaps - chase good people like my wife off (and my child as an extension), and never seem to understand why. Maybe you could learn a thing or two. Or do you not care about those people..... save the ones who think like you? Does this sound harsh? Well it DOES seem as though you think this way.... to me. Really.

*** Even if you are "technically" a member. I don't agree with homosexuals, with the Catholic church, with Nazi's...but I also don't go to their little gathering places either.*****

Educate yourself. This church has spent TONS of money, as well as directed members to get politically involved in... homosexual issues. While walking a fine line to keep their tax-exempt status (good lawyers). Actually, I'm almost okay with this. But.... when the institution gets into the political muck..... they should expect to get dirty.

*** I'm just trying to understand why anyone who doesn't agree with someone feels the need to meet up with them. ****

Perhaps because we are all in this thing called "life" together? Just a thought. And because I spend a huge amount of time trying to make things better..... in my own sometimes awkward or harsh way. Perhaps you may realize your actions and attitudes really do have resonance beyond what happens in your faith. More thoughts.

**** This isn't an insult...I was honestly asking what your point of being here was and what you hoped to achieve by participating in these boards. Honestly. ***

And I hope maybe as this evolves you will find out.

**** The honest to goodness truth is I don't care how you raise her. That's not because I don't care for her wellbeing, yours or who evers, but I am a parent. I will raise my child (soon to be children) the way I want them to be raised and the way I think is best for them. I don't care if others disagree with me or not, it's none of their business. So you can't ask me why I wouldn't have you raise her in the church. That's your choice and your wife's. *****

Cool.

[sgallan]

**** But obviously what has been said to your wife by those who are in her church have made such a negative feeling that she

A) doesn't want to go and/or

has reservations about having her kids raised in the church *****

Actually the reservations go beyond just "people problems". But it IS part of it to be sure. Why attend something which doesn't like you?

**** While I truly know you are not sterotyping the entire church, for it to have such an effect as A and B, then I would think there are some resentful feelings to even other members who may not feel that way. *****

With all due respect..... with us anyway..... that is stupid. What was it you were saying about assuming? The people in this church who were are friends before we joined are still friends. Most of the friends we made during are also friends. We don't hold grudges. We just say..... "well that wasn't good" and move on.

**** As for the conservative remark. (This only applies if you are referring to the political standpoint)****

Lifestyle, not politics.

[sgallan]

Dang. I'm looking over my posts. So many typo's. I must be exhausted.....

[Spencer]

Originally posted by sgallan@Jan 10 2004, 11:04 PM

Dang. I'm looking over my posts. So many typo's. I must be exhausted.....

Dont worry, were not grading you on this. =b

Spencer

[AFDaw]

And because people - like you perhaps - chase good people like my wife off (and my child as an extension), and never seem to understand why. Maybe you could learn a thing or two. Or do you not care about those people..... save the ones who think like you? Does this sound harsh? Well it DOES seem as though you think this way.... to me. Really.

Yes...I only care about those who think like me. I have no desire to meet anyone who could remotly disagree with me in any way shape or form....you hit the nail on the head [sarcasm off]

I know we only know each other from forums, but I could get my husband to attest to the fact that I THRIVE to meet people who believe differently from me. I honestly love to discuss issues. (Not mudsling or namecall) And in fact, I've been told by several people that I'm one of the few people they can talk about anything with and they can walk away not feeling hurt or offended. When I ask a question, it is usually because I am honestly curious. I can be a smart butt though, and I will turn that on in a heartbeat if I feel someone is being sarcastic with me as well.

And truly, I don't understand all the church and the political talk. Which is strange because I am really interested in politics.

[sgallan]

Yes...I only care about those who think like me. I have no desire to meet anyone who could remotly disagree with me in any way shape or form....you hit the nail on the head [sarcasm off] ****

**** I know we only know each other from forums, but I could get my husband to attest to the fact that I THRIVE to meet people who believe differently from me. I honestly love to discuss issues. (Not mudsling or namecall) And in fact, I've been told by several people that I'm one of the few people they can talk about anything with and they can walk away not feeling hurt or offended. When I ask a question, it is usually because I am honestly curious.****

I will take you at your word. Really. No sarcasm at all.

I can be a smart butt though, ****

NOOOO!!!! Say it isn't so!!

**** And truly, I don't understand all the church and the political talk. Which is strange because I am really interested in politics. *****

Well in general I don't have big issues with the church as an organization. I probably spend more time defending it then I do trashing it. When they do that political thing.... then I take a stand. Otherwise, the church basically wasn't a good fit for us. It is parental and conservative. Basically it suggests that god is a lot like conservative men in SLC who more or less believe in a circa 1950 white American cultural model. Now that is okay if you believe in such things. And if you were raised in it..... it is almost natural. It was too much the stretch for us. Especially me..... a non god believer by nature. And especially since we were given a gifted and talented "girl" child who we do not want constrained. Again, if the roles and model is what you have faith in..... cool. But it couldn't possibly work for us given our experiences, beliefs, and so forth.

[AFDaw]

First off...where do you live?

Second off...are you saying that if you were given a talented girl then she shouldn't be raised in the church?

[sgallan]

**** First off...where do you live? ****

Parker Arizona.

**** Second off...are you saying that if you were given a talented girl then she shouldn't be raised in the church? *****

Because the church has specific proscribed - more or less - roles for women. Basically the 1950's version of mom at home, dad at work. We have done things a little different in our house.

[AFDaw]

Is your community mainly LDS?

I won't even go into the female roles of the church thing.

[sgallan]

**** Is your community mainly LDS? ****

Not even close. It used to be a Ward and branch. It's now a Ward that would be a Branch except there are an influx of winter visitors (snowbirds) which fill up the roles.

**** I won't even go into the female roles of the church thing. ****

Smart.

[AFDaw]

More than you know.

[Guest lt]

1.) None of this has anything to do with the real topic Sgallon, move on...

2.) I have been where your wife is and not just in the lds church. Tell her to pick herself up and dust herself off and move..

If they don't like her...they weren't worth the time any ways. I learned along time ago that each ward is different and so is each individual. You can blame ion the church and cry about it(poor me poor me) Or dang it do something about it!!!!

Become there most awesome visiting teacher, do service for them, bring them a dinner when there family is well....Give them a reason to truly get to know you. I can tell you this....One of the people who was my worst critic in texas today she is my friend....We have been able to move past that time because I would not let it get me down.. IT's all about what you do with the gospel sgallion and how you use it.

As for your daughter I look forward to meeting your family in heaven someday sgallion you sound like you can be an awesome group when you are not so negitive and unchristlike...Anothers words he never said Do unto others as they do unto you...HE SAID: DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU..

Love and Prayers

Laureltree

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by sgallan@Jan 10 2004, 03:39 PM

Peace -

I find your apparent hypothesis that those who believe as Biz does (and I very much do), are somehow putting the nail in their own coffin - so to speak - due to some sort of inquitity..... as being a highly arrogant hypothesis. I find the concept of a god who would do this to us because we do not believe - or will not kiss his diefied butt - as an arrogant, even abhorrant god definition. This especially in light of the way I personally live my life.

A question; do you consider this sort of arrogance a "value" of your faith and religion?

Yes, well....most people who like sports...and their team loses...blame the refs....so you are not different. Ifyou can't walk the walk, then blame someone for your failure.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by bizabra+Jan 10 2004, 03:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bizabra @ Jan 10 2004, 03:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 10 2004, 02:47 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--bizabra@Jan 10 2004, 01:28 PM

I believe and have faith that there IS NO LIFE AFTER DEATH, at least no "life" in the sense that xtians and mormons have. 

We will not be individuals, we will not exist as the personality or body that we are now experiencing.  Our various molecules, whether matter or energy, will decay apart and disperse to "live" again in the other "living" things, be it grass or fungi or the animals that eat the grass or fungi that ingest our decayed component parts.

Perhaps "ghosts" are the yet unfully decayed energy mass of a past living thing, much like the not yet fully decayed parts of ancient bodies we still find.  Nothing living, to be sure, but something not yet fully split apart and recycled into another "life" as of yet.

In this way, we live on and on, and have "always lived".  Part of the Circle of Life, eh? 

I am not concerned that I live on "forever" in the way other people wish to do, a desire and /or need other have that I have never understood fully.  There is no fear or sense of loss in giving up the ME that exists here and now.  Any life is a small miracle, never to be repeated in exactly the same combination of matter and energy animating that matter.  I am enjoying that "I" exist now, as a sentient being.  It is comforting to me that all that I am will go on to give life to many other creatures after I die. 

In light of this belief of mine, in which I have total faith, I find the practice of embalming and entombing dead bodies to be abhorrent.  I have instructed my children that my body is to be cremated and spread about in order to get my carbon molecules, etc, back into the life cycle as soon as possible.  I'd prefer to be buried in a simple pine box and have a fruit tree planted on top, so that anyone who eats an apple off it might be ingesting "part" of me.  Since our current laws do not permit this, cremation is the next best thing.

For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:...Pro. 23:7

Whatsoever things are true, honest, pure, or lovely, think on these things, Philip. 4: 8.

Remember, to be carnally-minded is death, and to be spiritually-minded is life eternal, 2 Ne. 9: 39.

If ye do not watch yourselves, and your thoughts, ye must perish, Mosiah 4: 30.

Our thoughts will condemn us, Alma 12: 14.

Only God knows the thoughts and intents of thy heart, D&C 6: 16 (D&C 33: 1).

Look unto me in every thought, D&C 6: 36.

Treasure up in your minds the words of life, D&C 84: 85.

Cast away your idle thoughts, D&C 88: 69.

The thoughts of men’s hearts will be revealed, D&C 88: 109.

Let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly, D&C 121: 45.

The Buddha said, "The renunciate Sramana cuts off the passions, frees himself

of attachments, understands the source of his own mind, penetrates the deepest

doctrine of Buddha, and comprehends the Dharma which is immaterial. He has no

prejudice in his heart, he has nothing to hanker after. He is not hampered by the

thought of the Way, nor is he entangled in karma. No prejudice, no compulsion, so

discipline, no enlightenment, and no going up through the grades, and yet in possession

of all honours in itself - this is what is meant by the Way."

The Buddha said, "Men are tied up to their famililes and possessions more

helplessly than in a prison. There is an occassion for the prisoner to be released,

but the housholders entertain no desire to be relieved from the ties of family. Even

into the paws of a tiger, he will jump. Those who are thus drowned in the filth of

passion are called the ignorant. Those who are able to overcome it are saintly Arhats."

The Buddha asked another monk, "How do you measure the length of a man's

life?" He answered, "By days." The Buddha said, "You do not understand the Way."

The Buddha asked another monk, "How do you measure the length of a man's life?"

The monk answered, "By the time that passes during a meal." The Buddha said, "You

do not understand the Way." The Buddha asked the third monk, "How do you measure

the length of a man's life?" The monk answered, "By the breadth." The Buddha

said, "Very well, you know the Way."

Souls are poured from one into another of different kinds of bodies of the world."

Jesus Christ in Gnostic Gospels: Pistis Sophia

"...There is rebirth of character, but no transmigration of a self. Thy thought-forms reappear, but there is no ego-entity transferred. The stanza uttered by a teacher is reborn in the scholar who repeats the words.

Only through ignorance and delusion do men indulge in the dream that their souls are separate and self-existent entities. Thy heart, O Brahman, is cleaving still to self; thou art anxious about heaven but thou seekest the pleasures of self in heaven, and thus thou canst not see the bliss of truth and the immortality of truth."

Buddha

‘The correct understanding that death is nothing to us makes our mortality enjoyable, not by adding infinite time, but by taking away the yearning for immortality’ (Epicurus Letter to Menoeceus 124).

So you Zen...but do you exist? To be or not?

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by AFDaw@Jan 10 2004, 05:13 PM

The Gospel according to AFDaw

The scriptures say that God is a jealous God (among many thing), wanting us to put no others before him, so why would it seem odd that our God might not be happy with us if we openly denied him? Keep in mind I'm referring to those who have received testimony through the Holy Ghost that he does exist. I think it only makes sense for God to be upset at his children who know full well he is God and reject him knowing this.

sgallan - You ask if "arrogance" is considered a value in our faith. I can't answer for Peace (since it would seem that's who you were asking) but as for myself, wouldn't it make sense that we believe our faith to be true and right? And wouldn't it make sense that we are proud to be who we are? And could it be that you are mistaking that pride for arrogance?

There is pride and then there is pride. When one is taken with oneself...self-centered, then pride is destruction in embryo.

But to have 'respect' for oneself as a child of a supreme being, that is a good 'pride'.

[Guest Starsky]

You: The scriptures say that God is a jealous God (among many thing), wanting us to put no others before him, so why would it seem odd that our God might not be happy with us if we openly denied him?****

Cool. But without a shred of quantifiable proof of such a god; why would I want to worship such a being? Not that I mind you do. But I see no value for me.

There is no value for you...is it all about you? When you miss the bus, do you think all the people on the bus are thinking about you?

**** Keep in mind I'm referring to those who have received testimony through the Holy Ghost that he does exist. I think it only makes sense for God to be upset at his children who know full well he is God and reject him knowing this. *****

The only 'real' way one could know is through a visitation. That is why Outer Darkness in LDS theology would be so rare. Even then, why is God so insecure, or egotistical, or both..... that he demands we kiss his hiny?

Actually one receives the visitation, or even the dwelling of the Holy Ghost, which is 1/3 of the Godhead, and if one lives so as to receive the 2nd comforter...He also will visit and dwell. So many have much much proof.

sgallan - You ask if "arrogance" is considered a value in our faith. I can't answer for Peace (since it would seem that's who you were asking) but as for myself, wouldn't it make sense that we believe our faith to be true and right? *****

Taking this a version of a logical conclusion....... then I take it you don't have a problem with what the 9/11 terrorists did then? Because in their beliefs they sincerely believe they were called by god to do what they did. To the point they were willing to die for those beliefs. What would be the difference.

You confuse things greatly....911 is nothing more or less than the zeolots...living through brainwashing from childhood. Even people of their religion deny that these 'crazies' had valid religion or concepts of their God. So...this is nothing but bullroar. And as for people killing other people....that is everything todo with their agency. They will ultimately have to face those they murdered and the REAL GOD.

**** And wouldn't it make sense that we are proud to be who we are? And could it be that you are mistaking that pride for arrogance? *****

Isn't "prideful" supposed to be 'bad' as well? I get called this all of the time as an insult. ;-)

-------------------- There are many different ways to view pride. Words today can mean many things....take the word 'gay' for instance. LOL

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by sgallan@Jan 10 2004, 07:20 PM

If you want to go off on a topic start a new thread, but don't take a pefectly good topic like this and reroute it! *****

Well I found some of the implications as arrogant and mean spirited. So if that means you pull it..... pull it.

One of the weaknesses of many LDS, and a partial reason why my God believing (an LDS version of god at that) wife no longer attends your church (and she even went for a couple of weeks recently) was because of the tendency for the true believers to say things which are patently hurtful to those who are older converts and not part of the culture. Instead of going to church and feeling uplifted, she goes to church and hears things about her family, peers, and friends, which sorta says they suck. The people who do this don't realize they are doing so, but nonetheless..... why would she want to hang around and listen to all of that on a regular basis.

Think about it.

Or not.....

You know...a very nice GA once told my husband and I that the opposition would come from within the church, as much as from the outside people....I find this man was prophetic.

You must be strong or die....spiritually.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by sgallan@Jan 10 2004, 07:30 PM

Also, you say that as long as people keep to themselves about the religion, you don't mind. So what exactly is it you're doing here?****

It's the "I am technically a member" loophole. But if this bothers you I'll gladly give you them names and numbers of my SP and Bishop and you can "out" me.

*** Wouldn't that be YOU trying to beat us over the head with your beliefs and what not?****

You mean I don't have a right to beliefs in your world? Interesting.

**** I doubt you come here to gain understand as to why we believe what we do, so I would think the only other explanation is to possibly "save" us from what you consider to be wrong. ****

I know a lot of what you do. Tell you what. Here is your chance. The cute thing in the pick is my daughter (the guy is not me).

http://www.amateurwrestlingphotos.com/meng...aber%200089.htm

What value do you have for her? Especially given your attitude to me. Why would I want her to attend your church (they still send her stuff afterall)? Why shouldn't I raise her in a secular - even agnostic - way instead?

**** Which would in turn actually make you the prideful one. *****

I already admitted that. But I am a godless heathen afterall.

sgallon,

You have a lot of issues...but dragging your innocent little daughter down is even low for you.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by AFDaw@Jan 10 2004, 07:31 PM

sgallan - I have no doubt people in the church say things that can make others feel bad. I've had them said to me (like a woman in RS once said that those who marry a convert shouldn't get married at all), and I've been a member my whole life. But I've also had non-members say things that have hurt me as well. (like when I was 8mos pregnant and a woman at work said "Black is a sliming color, but it's not working on you!") I don't think that's limited to just the church, as I don't think you can sterotype the ENTIRE church because of what some people say.

Brilliant and needful point!!! :)

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by sgallan@Jan 10 2004, 08:01 PM

**** But obviously what has been said to your wife by those who are in her church have made such a negative feeling that she

A) doesn't want to go and/or

has reservations about having her kids raised in the church *****

Actually the reservations go beyond just "people problems". But it IS part of it to be sure. Why attend something which doesn't like you?

**** While I truly know you are not sterotyping the entire church, for it to have such an effect as A and B, then I would think there are some resentful feelings to even other members who may not feel that way. *****

With all due respect..... with us anyway..... that is stupid. What was it you were saying about assuming? The people in this church who were are friends before we joined are still friends. Most of the friends we made during are also friends. We don't hold grudges. We just say..... "well that wasn't good" and move on.

**** As for the conservative remark. (This only applies if you are referring to the political standpoint)****

Lifestyle, not politics.

Have you ever considered the fact that 'prophecy' is being fulfilled by some of the rejection your family has experienced.

We are told, and I see it happening all over, that the last days will be very much like the last two chapters of Nephi...3rd and 4th Nephi explain how it will be in our time...there will be divisions and hurtful people and prideful people, and abusive people...within the church...

3 Ne. 6: 13

13 Some were lifted up in pride, and others were exceedingly humble; some did return railing for railing, while others would receive railing and persecution and all manner of afflictions, and would not turn and revile again, but were humble and penitent before God.

Maybe you should help your wife see how scriptures can help her understand why the people treat her the way they do.

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by Peace@Jan 10 2004, 09:41 PM

So you Zen...but do you exist? To be or not?

Not zen, not really. Just wanted to throw out some inscrutible quotations for you to ponder. And yes, "I" do exist, for now. I prefer to be, while I can.

[sgallan]

Peace -

In your zealotry, and even borderline hatefulness, you have indeed shown me the "bad side" of your religion. But zealots - any faith - are a dime a dozen. They use their religion as a weapon.... so to speak. Suggesting their God is some sort of boogeyman I need to fear. The odd thing is...... generally the LDS don't fall into this 'God as something to be afraid' of trap. I truly get the feeling if you could get a magic wand, or had a theocracy..... you would try to eliminate people like me. Seriously; I see this in you. I find your handle ironic. Peace indeed.

But it's cool. I know many of your faith who show the good side. Including the poster I was conversing with earlier. Typical of any religion.

Oh, and issues. EVERYBODY has issues of some sort. You for example don't seem to like cute kid pictures.....

scott - waiting for Peace (LOL) to go to war.

[Cal]

Peace--thank you for all of your assertions about your knowledge of the afterlife.

Now, would you like to answer the question I asked at the beginning of this thread?

I'll restate it for you-----what LDS Scripture states that non-mormons CAN'T chose to hang out with their relatives in your HEARAFTER? (and I don't want an answer like "We are taught that......) Mormons are "taught" all kinds of absurd things that I'm sure even you would consider NON-DOCTRINAL. I want to know a SCRIPTURAL source for this doctrine.

[Behunin]

Originally posted by sgallan@Jan 10 2004, 07:06 PM

Taking this a version of a logical conclusion....... then I take it you don't have a problem with what the 9/11 terrorists did then? Because in their beliefs they sincerely believe they were called by god to do what they did. To the point they were willing to die for those beliefs. What would be the difference.

No one has any proof of who is responsible for 9/11. We only know what George Bush and the media has told us.

It is all what you choose to believe. Budda, Allah, Zeus, or what ever floats your boat.

People has this disease of having to be "right".

I believe that the hand of GOD is in all things.

[AFDaw]

Cal - Our scriptures don't only pertain to the Bible, BoM, D&C, & PGP. Modern scripture isn't set in a little leather bound book divided up into chapters and verses. Not only that, but you obviously don't accept "Mormon Scripture" so why are you asking for one to prove a point you don't even believe in?