Families Can Be Together Forever...

[Spencer]

Then again, the conversation would have most likly been completely different all together. Because one is less likly to put themselves in that situation in real life.

Spencer

[Guest Starsky]

take exception to your statement that "real parents look to protect their kids". I would suggest that REAL parents wish to teach their children and give them a variety of experience and the opportunity to develope thier talents, not simply "protect" them, and that REAL parents are proud of their childrens achievements! Being proud of your child is very different than using them for "glorification".

Your "undies" are showing, dear, and it's not a pretty picture!

LOL....pride...I don't believe there is a prideful parent out there who doesn't steal the 'glory' from their child's hard work.

I believe protecting a child is something 'displaying' a picture of a child here on the www isn't doing.

What has this protecting statement got to do with 'giving your child a variety of experiences?' That is just messed up thinking...confusing or fusing the two together suggesting I said...'don't give your kids experiences....or you won't be protecting them....'

But if that is how you think....it certainly makes it clear why you don't want anything to do with the church.

And as to my panties showing...hardly dear.

[Behunin]

Originally posted by bizabra@Jan 14 2004, 10:36 PM

I certainly want to right to live my life free from hasty and mistaken judgements about me! Don't you?

This is an internet site however, and we are discoursing on an emotional topic, so it is understandible that sometimes folks say things that they would not say if they were talking face to face with an actual person.

I don't believe Peace would ever say what she did to Sgallon if he was sitting next to her on an airpane and took out his pics of his daughter and showed them off. She would likely have said something nice and complimentary, don'tcha think?

This is impossible. No one on this earth can live free of mistaken judgements. If this were so, there would be no war. So when you ask "Don't you?", I can only say yes ideally, no in reality.

Now just because this is an internet site that provides the safety of distance and anonimity, it is no reason to be dishonest. ( this doesn't mean people aren't). If Peace and Sgallon were speaking face to face on an airplane or anywhere eles, if they had the same spoken conversation as they have had written, it is very possible that the same things could have been said.

Don'tcha think?

[sgallan]

**** LOL....pride...I don't believe there is a prideful parent out there who doesn't steal the 'glory' from their child's hard work.*****

There is a difference between stealing and sharing. But I am not suprised you are unable to tell the difference. But I will admit to being proud of my child. I happen to think it's good for their self-esteem. You on the otherhand teach fear and self loathing?

**** I believe protecting a child is something 'displaying' a picture of a child here on the www isn't doing. ****

Why not? Kids make the paper, and various places, all of the time. That picture I post for example COMES from a public site called www.wrestlingphotos.com. Reni has several pictures on that site. Heck, the kid who beat Reni for the girls Nationals title got her pic in Sports Illustrated. I sent her, and her parents a congratulatory e-mail. That little one is a terrific kid as well.

**** What has this protecting statement got to do with 'giving your child a variety of experiences?' That is just messed up thinking...confusing or fusing the two together suggesting I said...'don't give your kids experiences....or you won't be protecting them....' *****

So where exactly am I not protecting my kid? What exactly are you so afraid of? I have already CLEARLY illustrated what we do, where we live, and how we go about things. Trust me; as one who works with kids.... we are doing better that most. I pity those of you who go through life scared of most everything. I really do.

**** But if that is how you think....it certainly makes it clear why you don't want anything to do with the church. ****

Heck, we knew that. And found it out first hand just in case. People like you don't like people like me and my family (including the extended version).

**** And as to my panties showing...hardly dear. *****

Sure they are. You are "probably" letting your 'more' true emotions and feeling out on a discussion board. Crap you think and believe but wouldn't dare say outloud in the real world. The stuff which show the value "you" get from this religion is to hate those - like me - who do not fit in your boxlike world. You are sort of an anti-missionary" for the religion you espouse.

Like I said before..... some people get the good stuff from a religion, some get a mix, you seemed to have mostly gotten the bad stuff. But that's cool. Makes the world an interesting place.

[Guest Starsky]

You on the otherhand teach fear and self loathing?

You are a great fictional writer...so why are you here?

[Guest Starsky]

Sure they are. You are "probably" letting your 'more' true emotions and feeling out on a discussion board. Crap you think and believe but wouldn't dare say outloud in the real world. The stuff which show the value "you" get from this religion is to hate those - like me - who do not fit in your boxlike world. You are sort of an anti-missionary" for the religion you espouse.

Not so deary. I speak my mind and always have. What you see here is what you get face to face.

I think more outside the box than everyone, including you, I have met. Your very post here shows how boxed in your thinking style is.

[Guest Starsky]

To Sgallan...who btw has the same spelling (I checked) as the slumlord here in the valley ...

I tire of 'your kind' of discussion. It just circles the field dropping sluge bombs and never lands. So...I won't be responding to it anymore.

I have always like stimulating and intelligent discussions where the heart is involved. You don't seem to have one. So continue your messed up way of discussing without me.

[sgallan]

You are a great fictional writer...so why are you here?****

I can prove most of what I say.

Me at Palo Verde College (I am teaching a a MAN106 and two Bus105 - only one is listed) in Distance Ed.

http://www.paloverde.edu/modules/Static_Do.../mcspring04.pdf

Me at AWC teaching weights.....

http://www.azwestern.edu/schedule/?dosearc...NY&location=ANY

Reni taking second in nationals.....

Elementary Division

Individual Place Finishers

39lbs.

1st - Taylor Shirley (Galion, OH) pinned Alexis Berube (Escanaba, MI) 1:58.61 lbs.

2nd - Alexis Berube (Escanaba, MI) pinned Sasha Berube (Escanaba, MI) 0:38.

44 lbs.

1st - Katie Agey (Des Moines, IA) pinned Reni Gallan (Parker, AZ) 2:33.

2nd - Reni Gallan (Parker, AZ) dec. Courtney Cuddie, (Burton, MI) 6-1.

And a pic of the finals from Amateurwrestlingphotos(because I know you hate kid pics).....

http://amateurwrestlingphotos.com/women/20.../usgwa00278.htm

Joey Lopez becoming a HS All American (he is about to become a daddy of his own little girl - we are very excited).....

11th annual National Senior High School Wrestling Championships

At Pittsburgh, Pa., March 24-26

103 pounds

Championship: Marvin Garcia, Riverside, Calif. Norte Vista, d. Sal Gonzalez, Merced, Calif., 12-7.

Third Place: Dylan Ahrens, Newton, Mass. North, d. Joshua Luneburg, New Ulm, Minn, 13-7.

Fifth Place: Ryan Pong, Danville, Calif. San Ramon Valley, fft. Joey Lopez, Parker, Ariz.

Seventh Place: Pat Rieli, Hudson, Fla., p. Erik Ortega, Canon City, Colo., 0:41.

Cool story about this; he had never been on a plane (tried to scare him but he was unfallable). Got the full experience..... a cancelled flight and everything. He was leading the guy who took third 5-1 with about a minute left when he dislocated his should BADLY. The ER was right next door so that was cool. His only other "on the mat" loss was to the kid that took first in the first match of the tournament 0-6. He had to wrestle back a long way.

I got a LOT more stuff. Just because you are used to dishonesty and fiction doesn't mean everybody is. I tend to back up what I say.

[sgallan]

Not so deary. I speak my mind and always have. What you see here is what you get face to face. ****

Wouldn't bother me none. Fanatics are a dime a dozen. Unlike you though; I am at least a real person on boards and can (mostly) back up what I say.

*** I think more outside the box than everyone, including you, I have met. ****

EVERYONE! Wow!! And I thought I was humble....

*** Your very post here shows how boxed in your thinking style is. ****

How so?

*** To Sgallan...who btw has the same spelling (I checked) as the slumlord here in the valley ... ****

I have a rich relative I don't know about!? Cool! Better get my inheritance dibs in.

*** I tire of 'your kind' of discussion. It just circles the field dropping sluge bombs and never lands. So...I won't be responding to it anymore. ****

Can't box me in. Can't make me evil. Can't make me lessor. Can't even defend your hate or the attitude your faith gives you. The fruits so to speak. So your gonna take your ball and go home, eh? Figures.

**** I have always like stimulating and intelligent discussions where the heart is involved. You don't seem to have one. *****

Nah, you just don't like me. I mess-up your paradigm.

*** So continue your messed up way of discussing without me. ****

Okay, thanks.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Peace@Jan 14 2004, 08:05 PM

Peace---I find your use of the word "eternity" massively confusing. Why use a word whose common meaning is "without end" and use it in a way that no person familiar with the proper use of the word would understand. All I can say is you must worship a God who uses "smoke and mirrors" to communicate with his children.

It isn't something you can understand without the Spirit. Seriously...it is 'high' knowledge and understanding.

Regarding the "ring" analogy---just where DOES a ring begin if it is NOT endless as you imply? Actually, I find all this pure non-sense. It has no real meaning to anyone but the confused mind of Joseph Smith.

Again...you won't understand it without some of the knowledge gained in the temple coupled with the Spirit..

Let's say that you are correct about after the ressurrection, does it say anywhere in the scriptures that families can't hang out together within the kingdoms they dwell in according to your interpretation of heaven? After all, if someone and his family chose not to join the LDS church and not get married in the mormon temple, but are otherwise good, honorable people, according to LDS people, they will all be in the Terrestrial kingdom anyway right? So they can all hangout together and be one big happy family right?

I already taught you the 'principle' of blessings. Do you give your kids rewards when they disobey you?

Also, lets say I'm the only person in my whole family that choses to join the mormon church (even with all the baptism for the dead stuff), that means that my whole family can be together in the Terretrial kingdom (assuming again that they are good people) and here I am stuck in the Celestial kingdom with nothing to do but make babies and create solar systems, and meanwhile, my whole family is having a great time, partying it up in the Terrestrial, and sending me letters about what a good time they are having without me right?

Matt. 12:

46 ¶ While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Also Lukes rendition of this same event and doctrine:

19 Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press.

20 And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.

21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

Peace---that's the response I always get when people have no explanation for their non-sensical ideas. I seem to remember a place in your scriptures where it says that God speaks "plainly" to his children, so even your scriptures don't really endorse this sort of communication you refer to.

AFD,

Your question was....My question to you is why if "everyone" believes it too, why do they marry "til death do you part?"

I must have ignored this question because it seems so OFF POINT. Clearly this phrase is factual. Who in their right mind doesn't think that AT DEATH we PART? Now, we may not part forever, but we PART. The fact that other churches don't teach that we are MARRIED in the hearafter has nothing to do with my initial posting which asked the question,that is, where in LDS scripture does it say that people can't BE WITH THEIR KINFOLK IF THEY SO DESIRE? This has nothing to do with marriage as such. That is why I may have ignored your question. I think you are assuming that in order to be together in the hearafter people have to be married. The LDS scriptures don't say that. They just say that in order to BE MARRIED in the hearafter, you have to be married by LDS ordinance.

So you don't really get anywhere by asking that question.

[Guest Starsky]

Peace---that's the response I always get when people have no explanation for their non-sensical ideas. I seem to remember a place in your scriptures where it says that God speaks "plainly" to his children, so even your scriptures don't really endorse this sort of communication you refer to.

It is plain to those who have the Spirit. But it is a mystery tothose who don't. The scriptures state them many times over. You want scriptures?Here are just a few:

Luke 8: 10

10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

1 Cor. 4: 1

1 LET a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

1 Cor. 14: 2

2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

AFD,

Your question was....My question to you is why if "everyone" believes it too, why do they marry "til death do you part?"

I must have ignored this question because it seems so OFF POINT. Clearly this phrase is factual. Who in their right mind doesn't think that AT DEATH we PART? Now, we may not part forever, but we PART. The fact that other churches don't teach that we are MARRIED in the hearafter has nothing to do with my initial posting which asked the question,that is, where in LDS scripture does it say that people can't BE WITH THEIR KINFOLK IF THEY SO DESIRE? This has nothing to do with marriage as such. That is why I may have ignored your question. I think you are assuming that in order to be together in the hearafter people have to be married. The LDS scriptures don't say that. They just say that in order to BE MARRIED in the hearafter, you have to be married by LDS ordinance.

So you don't really get anywhere by asking that question.

You clearly don't understand Mormon scriptures.....having your 'seed' is having your family with you. That is clearly taught in 132nd section of the D&C.

Also, the prophets have many written teachings which are not in the standard works...which clearly define this doctrine.

If you don't believe in prophets in modern times...then you won't believe this doctrine. That is your problem....a bible, a bible...we have a bible and we need no more.....

When you cut off the posibility of modern revelation you also cut off your possibilities of knowing all there is to know about the life to come.

[AFDaw]

Cal -I see your point. You're saying every other religion believes you can be together after death also...not just us, so why do we make a big deal out of it. Well maybe the difference is we don't believe we'll all be angels floating around playing a harp on a cloud. We believe we'll still be a family in the afterlife. (ie: parents, kids, brothers, sisters)

[Cal]

Peace----yeah, I agree...it is all about faith----most of the time blind. Any discussion ends when you refuse to actually discuss the point raised and respond by, "well, you just have to have the Spirit". As far as I am concerned that is a big cop out----a way to avoid logical discussion. Besides where is the credibility in that sort of argument....lots of people in lots of religions claim to know things by the "spirit" that are totally contrary to what you believe. So whose "spirit" is right?

AFD--I see we are getting closer to communicating However, the last part of your comment seems to imply that non-mormons think they won't be able to recognize eachother as family members in the hereafter so as to hangout together. Is that what you meant to say?

[Guest Starsky]

Peace----yeah, I agree...it is all about faith----most of the time blind. Any discussion ends when you refuse to actually discuss the point raised and respond by, "well, you just have to have the Spirit". As far as I am concerned that is a big cop out----a way to avoid logical discussion. Besides where is the credibility in that sort of argument....lots of people in lots of religions claim to know things by the "spirit" that are totally contrary to what you believe. So whose "spirit" is right?

Well as far as I am concerned this line of reasoning is a big cop out...a way to avoid actually trying what you have been told would work.

Discussions....mind against mind. What does that do for you. Many of your kind complain about us being 'brain washed'....or 'blind'...when in reality...it is this dicussion mode you think so highly of that has you convinced you know there is no 'spiritual' way to know what we are saying is true.

So who is really blind or brainwashed?

If you actually experience God...you don't think so much of 'men' or the FEEBLE arm of flesh..anymore.

[Cal]

Peace---where did you get the idea that I "thought so much of men" or their FEEBLE ideas.

I certainly don't think much of YOUR feeble ideas. By the way, GBH is a man, what do you think of his FEEBLE ideas? BY was a man, what do you think of his FEEBLE ideas? Hey, even JS was a man, I think I know what you think of his FEEBLE ideas. Come to think of it, exactly which man's arm of flesh DO you rely on. If I'm not mistaken, everything you seem to believe in came from SOME man originally.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 17 2004, 03:53 PM

Peace---where did you get the idea that I "thought so much of men" or their FEEBLE ideas.

I certainly don't think much of YOUR feeble ideas. By the way, GBH is a man, what do you think of his FEEBLE ideas? BY was a man, what do you think of his FEEBLE ideas? Hey, even JS was a man, I think I know what you think of his FEEBLE ideas. Come to think of it, exactly which man's arm of flesh DO you rely on. If I'm not mistaken, everything you seem to believe in came from SOME man originally.

There is a big difference between men and prophets.

Men who write historical stuff or scientific stuff don't claim to have received it from God.

So your comparison and logic just don't work. Gosh...you do get lost alot don't you? You are so busy twisting things this way and that you don't see how silly it all appears to me.

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 17 2004, 03:25 PM

AFD--I see we are getting closer to communicating However, the last part of your comment seems to imply that non-mormons think they won't be able to recognize each other as family members in the hereafter so as to hangout together. Is that what you meant to say?

I guess you could say that. Though I'm not sure what other religions believe as far as how they will be related, but I do believe that without proper temple ordainces (either performed by them or through the temple work for the dead) they will not be united as family.

[Behunin]

Originally posted by AFDaw@Jan 18 2004, 12:45 AM

I do believe that without proper temple ordainces (either performed by them or through the temple work for the dead) they will not be united as family.

This is true, but not until the resurrection, and after the millinium (sp). Remember that during spirit world/prison, missionary work/temple work is being done. Also during Christ's reign of a thousand years there will be temples on the earth performing sealings and other work.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Peace+Jan 17 2004, 09:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 17 2004, 09:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 17 2004, 03:53 PM

Peace---where did you get the idea that I "thought so much of men" or their FEEBLE ideas.

I certainly don't think much of YOUR feeble ideas. By the way, GBH is a man, what do you think of his FEEBLE ideas? BY was a man, what do you think of his FEEBLE ideas? Hey, even JS was a man, I think I know what you think of his FEEBLE ideas. Come to think of it, exactly which man's arm  of flesh DO you rely on. If I'm not mistaken, everything you seem to believe in came from SOME man originally.

There is a big difference between men and prophets.

Men who write historical stuff or scientific stuff don't claim to have received it from God.

So your comparison and logic just don't work. Gosh...you do get lost alot don't you? You are so busy twisting things this way and that you don't see how silly it all appears to me.

I certainly CAN see how silly it appears to you---but that is the problem; you don't see how silly you SHOULD appear to yourself.

For example, the MAN/PROPHET distinction---talk about CIRCULAR REASONING AGAIN---- how do you know that the MAN is DIFFERENT than a PROPHET?....because the MAN told you so! How can you decide that the MAN is a prophet BEFORE he tells you so? What you are saying is that YOU believe he is a prophet because he TELLS you so. Now, how is that not STILL trusting in the ARM OF FLESH? You still have to believe that this MAN is telling you the truth that he is a prophet. It is still all about trusting in a MAN. Do you get it yet?

[Spencer]

Originally posted by Cal+Jan 18 2004, 12:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Jan 18 2004, 12:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Peace@Jan 17 2004, 09:22 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jan 17 2004, 03:53 PM

Peace---where did you get the idea that I "thought so much of men" or their FEEBLE ideas.

I certainly don't think much of YOUR feeble ideas. By the way, GBH is a man, what do you think of his FEEBLE ideas? BY was a man, what do you think of his FEEBLE ideas? Hey, even JS was a man, I think I know what you think of his FEEBLE ideas. Come to think of it, exactly which man's arm  of flesh DO you rely on. If I'm not mistaken, everything you seem to believe in came from SOME man originally.

There is a big difference between men and prophets.

Men who write historical stuff or scientific stuff don't claim to have received it from God.

So your comparison and logic just don't work. Gosh...you do get lost alot don't you? You are so busy twisting things this way and that you don't see how silly it all appears to me.

I certainly CAN see how silly it appears to you---but that is the problem; you don't see how silly you SHOULD appear to yourself.

For example, the MAN/PROPHET distinction---talk about CIRCULAR REASONING AGAIN---- how do you know that the MAN is DIFFERENT than a PROPHET?....because the MAN told you so! How can you decide that the MAN is a prophet BEFORE he tells you so? What you are saying is that YOU believe he is a prophet because he TELLS you so. Now, how is that not STILL trusting in the ARM OF FLESH? You still have to believe that this MAN is telling you the truth that he is a prophet. It is still all about trusting in a MAN. Do you get it yet?

Sounds like youre questioning our Faith.

Spencer

[Guest antishock82003]

He's not so much questioning your faith as he wants YOU to question your faith. It's ok, Spence. You can do that you know...

[Guest Starsky]

Peace---where did you get the idea that I "thought so much of men" or their FEEBLE ideas.

I certainly don't think much of YOUR feeble ideas. By the way, GBH is a man, what do you think of his FEEBLE ideas? BY was a man, what do you think of his FEEBLE ideas? Hey, even JS was a man, I think I know what you think of his FEEBLE ideas. Come to think of it, exactly which man's arm  of flesh DO you rely on. If I'm not mistaken, everything you seem to believe in came from SOME man originally.

There is a big difference between men and prophets.

Men who write historical stuff or scientific stuff don't claim to have received it from God.

So your comparison and logic just don't work. Gosh...you do get lost alot don't you? You are so busy twisting things this way and that you don't see how silly it all appears to me.

I certainly CAN see how silly it appears to you---but that is the problem; you don't see how silly you SHOULD appear to yourself.

For example, the MAN/PROPHET distinction---talk about CIRCULAR REASONING AGAIN---- how do you know that the MAN is DIFFERENT than a PROPHET?....because the MAN told you so! How can you decide that the MAN is a prophet BEFORE he tells you so? What you are saying is that YOU believe he is a prophet because he TELLS you so. Now, how is that not STILL trusting in the ARM OF FLESH? You still have to believe that this MAN is telling you the truth that he is a prophet. It is still all about trusting in a MAN. Do you get it yet?

We have answered this question maybe thirty times on this board...Why can't you get it..?????

We can know a prophet from a man by his works and the confirmation of the Spirit. Just because you have no clue how powerful the Spirit can work, and what difference the Spirit can make, doesn't mean we have to wander around blind and stupid also.

We are happy, finding joy and rejoicing in our lives...we are not over at your place trying to dig at you....you are here trying to dig at us.

Doesn't that tell you something?

Jealousy is a major problem among those on the outside....has been from the beginning of time. The first murder was caused by the very thing you are guilty of. You are jealous of our joy. You are miserable. Misery loves company. You ...like Satan...want us to forsake our knowledge and adherance to Christ and His prophets, to follow him...

How do you suppose 1/3 the host of heaven were talked into following such a loser as Satan?

Rom. 10: 3

3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

They forsook the known right way because of dicussions of logic like you put out. They became blinded by their own ideas of righteousness and progress...

These ideas of Satan's righteousness forsook the principles of 'agency' which is necessary for existence and progress...

These ideas of Satan's righeousness forsook the principles of 'individual' worth which would allow all to receive their 'own' glory... according to their obedience to God's righteous principles.

These ideas of Satan's righteous were really based upon ignorance/darkness which only brings captivity.

When you follow such a path...you lose...we don't.

Know this, you are among Satan's minions. If you are happy there...it is temporary at best.

When this life ends...so will the blindness you are experiencing. I have already died once. I know from whence I speak.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Peace@Jan 18 2004, 12:47 PM

Peace---where did you get the idea that I "thought so much of men" or their FEEBLE ideas.

I certainly don't think much of YOUR feeble ideas. By the way, GBH is a man, what do you think of his FEEBLE ideas? BY was a man, what do you think of his FEEBLE ideas? Hey, even JS was a man, I think I know what you think of his FEEBLE ideas. Come to think of it, exactly which man's arm  of flesh DO you rely on. If I'm not mistaken, everything you seem to believe in came from SOME man originally.

There is a big difference between men and prophets.

Men who write historical stuff or scientific stuff don't claim to have received it from God.

So your comparison and logic just don't work. Gosh...you do get lost alot don't you? You are so busy twisting things this way and that you don't see how silly it all appears to me.

I certainly CAN see how silly it appears to you---but that is the problem; you don't see how silly you SHOULD appear to yourself.

For example, the MAN/PROPHET distinction---talk about CIRCULAR REASONING AGAIN---- how do you know that the MAN is DIFFERENT than a PROPHET?....because the MAN told you so! How can you decide that the MAN is a prophet BEFORE he tells you so? What you are saying is that YOU believe he is a prophet because he TELLS you so. Now, how is that not STILL trusting in the ARM OF FLESH? You still have to believe that this MAN is telling you the truth that he is a prophet. It is still all about trusting in a MAN. Do you get it yet?

We have answered this question maybe thirty times on this board...Why can't you get it..?????

We can know a prophet from a man by his works and the confirmation of the Spirit. Just because you have no clue how powerful the Spirit can work, and what difference the Spirit can make, doesn't mean we have to wander around blind and stupid also.

We are happy, finding joy and rejoicing in our lives...we are not over at your place trying to dig at you....you are here trying to dig at us.

Doesn't that tell you something?

Jealousy is a major problem among those on the outside....has been from the beginning of time. The first murder was caused by the very thing you are guilty of. You are jealous of our joy. You are miserable. Misery loves company. You ...like Satan...want us to forsake our knowledge and adherance to Christ and His prophets, to follow him...

How do you suppose 1/3 the host of heaven were talked into following such a loser as Satan?

Rom. 10: 3

3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

They forsook the known right way because of dicussions of logic like you put out. They became blinded by their own ideas of righteousness and progress...

These ideas of Satan's righteousness forsook the principles of 'agency' which is necessary for existence and progress...

These ideas of Satan's righeousness forsook the principles of 'individual' worth which would allow all to receive their 'own' glory... according to their obedience to God's righteous principles.

These ideas of Satan's righteous were really based upon ignorance/darkness which only brings captivity.

When you follow such a path...you lose...we don't.

Know this, you are among Satan's minions. If you are happy there...it is temporary at best.

When this life ends...so will the blindness you are experiencing. I have already died once. I know from whence I speak.

Peace---typical tactic of the religious fanatic-------IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE AS I DO, THE BIG BAD SATAN IS GOING TO GET YOU! Convince the infidel by FEAR. That may be your God's way, it's not mine.

As far as your monopoly on happiness----I was born in the LDS church, mission the whole thing. I have a real good perspective on what it is all about. I even thought I had one of your "testimonies". Was I happy? I thought I was for a while. Then I realized that I was anything but. Seeing through the brain washing of my youth is what has brought me true happiness and FREEDOM. I am finally free to think for myself and it feels GREAT. I have a very happy life, with a very happy wife, and grown kids who are also VERY successful and happy, without the shackles of religious fanaticism.

A brief history of my spiritual journey out of mormonism started when I began studying religion from the UNBIASED point of view---as though I were a non-mormon investigating the church for the first time. I had already read the BoM over 10 times and was familiar with all the pro-mormon propaganda. I read neutral, factual stuff and anti- stuff. The anti- stuff didn't impress me. It was full of misinformation and slants. However, the neutral scientific stuff was more than enough to make me realize that Mormons are taught things that are simply untrue. The credibility of JS was seriously questionable. And what I have learned since had done little to convince me otherwise.

I still believe in God and the Spirit---it is just NOT the MORMON God, or anyone elses for that matter. My God has never told me that he organizes religions, nor has he told me there is any such thing an YOUR Satan.

The God I believe in requires me to use my rational thought and difficult study and research to KNOW anything other than that He exists. He doesn't allow me to make claims of KNOWING things thru the Spirit other than that He exists.

So, my point is your claim that only Mormonism can make one truely happy is a falsehood, just another tactic to try to attract people and to justify things that I think, most mormons, deep down suspect are not really true. That is why they claim to KNOW so much--they are trying to drown out the little voice of logic that says, "mormonism claims too much".

[Cal]

Originally posted by Cal@Jan 19 2004, 12:07 PM

Peace---where did you get the idea that I "thought so much of men" or their FEEBLE ideas.

I certainly don't think much of YOUR feeble ideas. By the way, GBH is a man, what do you think of his FEEBLE ideas? BY was a man, what do you think of his FEEBLE ideas? Hey, even JS was a man, I think I know what you think of his FEEBLE ideas. Come to think of it, exactly which man's arm  of flesh DO you rely on. If I'm not mistaken, everything you seem to believe in came from SOME man originally.

There is a big difference between men and prophets.

Men who write historical stuff or scientific stuff don't claim to have received it from God.

So your comparison and logic just don't work. Gosh...you do get lost alot don't you? You are so busy twisting things this way and that you don't see how silly it all appears to me.

I certainly CAN see how silly it appears to you---but that is the problem; you don't see how silly you SHOULD appear to yourself.

For example, the MAN/PROPHET distinction---talk about CIRCULAR REASONING AGAIN---- how do you know that the MAN is DIFFERENT than a PROPHET?....because the MAN told you so! How can you decide that the MAN is a prophet BEFORE he tells you so? What you are saying is that YOU believe he is a prophet because he TELLS you so. Now, how is that not STILL trusting in the ARM OF FLESH? You still have to believe that this MAN is telling you the truth that he is a prophet. It is still all about trusting in a MAN. Do you get it yet?

We have answered this question maybe thirty times on this board...Why can't you get it..?????

We can know a prophet from a man by his works and the confirmation of the Spirit. Just because you have no clue how powerful the Spirit can work, and what difference the Spirit can make, doesn't mean we have to wander around blind and stupid also.

We are happy, finding joy and rejoicing in our lives...we are not over at your place trying to dig at you....you are here trying to dig at us.

Doesn't that tell you something?

Jealousy is a major problem among those on the outside....has been from the beginning of time. The first murder was caused by the very thing you are guilty of. You are jealous of our joy. You are miserable. Misery loves company. You ...like Satan...want us to forsake our knowledge and adherance to Christ and His prophets, to follow him...

How do you suppose 1/3 the host of heaven were talked into following such a loser as Satan?

Rom. 10: 3

3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

They forsook the known right way because of dicussions of logic like you put out. They became blinded by their own ideas of righteousness and progress...

These ideas of Satan's righteousness forsook the principles of 'agency' which is necessary for existence and progress...

These ideas of Satan's righeousness forsook the principles of 'individual' worth which would allow all to receive their 'own' glory... according to their obedience to God's righteous principles.

These ideas of Satan's righteous were really based upon ignorance/darkness which only brings captivity.

When you follow such a path...you lose...we don't.

Know this, you are among Satan's minions. If you are happy there...it is temporary at best.

When this life ends...so will the blindness you are experiencing. I have already died once. I know from whence I speak.

Peace---typical tactic of the religious fanatic-------IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE AS I DO, THE BIG BAD SATAN IS GOING TO GET YOU! Convince the infidel by FEAR. That may be your God's way, it's not mine.

As far as your monopoly on happiness----I was born in the LDS church, mission the whole thing. I have a real good perspective on what it is all about. I even thought I had one of your "testimonies". Was I happy? I thought I was for a while. Then I realized that I was anything but. Seeing through the brain washing of my youth is what has brought me true happiness and FREEDOM. I am finally free to think for myself and it feels GREAT. I have a very happy life, with a very happy wife, and grown kids who are also VERY successful and happy, without the shackles of religious fanaticism.

A brief history of my spiritual journey out of mormonism started when I began studying religion from the UNBIASED point of view---as though I were a non-mormon investigating the church for the first time. I had already read the BoM over 10 times and was familiar with all the pro-mormon propaganda. I read neutral, factual stuff and anti- stuff. The anti- stuff didn't impress me. It was full of misinformation and slants. However, the neutral scientific stuff was more than enough to make me realize that Mormons are taught things that are simply untrue. The credibility of JS was seriously questionable. And what I have learned since had done little to convince me otherwise.

I still believe in God and the Spirit---it is just NOT the MORMON God, or anyone elses for that matter. My God has never told me that he organizes religions, nor has he told me there is any such thing an YOUR Satan.

The God I believe in requires me to use my rational thought and difficult study and research to KNOW anything other than that He exists. He doesn't allow me to make claims of KNOWING things thru the Spirit other than that He exists.

So, my point is your claim that only Mormonism can make one truely happy is a falsehood, just another tactic to try to attract people and to justify things that I think, most mormons, deep down suspect are not really true. That is why they claim to KNOW so much--they are trying to drown out the little voice of logic that says, "mormonism claims too much".

Peace,

By the way, since when did this forum become "your"place. Spencer just informed us that it is open to buddists, atheists etc. How did it all of a sudden become "your place". I guess you just can't stand to have someone make you rationally justify your claims.

As for the JEALOUSY remark, what do I have to be jealous of? I have had plenty of mormonism, if I wanted anymore, I could easily get it. All this puffing about how superior you are and how much more happy you are than everyone else is what your own BoM called THE PRIDE BEFORE THE FALL. You sound just like the Nephites (who never really existed, but who I will play along with since you seem to believe in them) who boasted of their superior rightousness just before your God had the Lamanites squash them like a bug.

[Guest Starsky]

One can obtain many levels of happiness, but only the highest level can be obtain through the church ordinances performed by worthy authority.

It is all up to you and how much you are 'willing to accept'.

D&C 88:

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.