Legitamacy Of The Prophets

USNationalist · January 19, 2004

It is my personal opinion that there are no "prophets" anymore. But i was at a mormon church today and they were talking about the reaons they have prophets.

So my question is, how do the LDS and RLDS view each others prophets? They both claim that God communicates his will through them, so what makes one side their faith has legitamate prophets and the others are false?

Blessed · January 19, 2004

I honestly have not sat underneath the ministry leadership of the LDS president/prophet, so I can not judge to whether he is or isn't.

I have sat underneath the ministry of our president and prophet, Grant McMurray. I have spoken to him one on one at length.

There is a certain presence of God this man carries with him that is unmistakingly unique and deeply spiritual.

Does how I view him make any other "prophet" any less spiritual? No.

I think it all boils down to the fruits. By their fruits you shall know them.

And also goes back to the "Body" and how each part was created for a specific purpose not adding or taking away from the other part, but without either the body would not be complete.

Does that help?

Behunin · January 19, 2004

Originally posted by USNationalist@Jan 19 2004, 01:45 AM
i was at a mormon church today and they were talking about the reaons they have prophets.

Why were you at church?

USNationalist · January 19, 2004

The missionaries invited me.

Blessed- But dont you consider the LDS church to be false? and visa versa? If God is speaking to President Hinkly wouldnt that deminish the legitamacy of the RLDS claims that prophets must be desendants of JS? And wouldnt God speaking to President Grant McMurry deminish the claims of the LDS that their prophets are the true ones?

Blessed · January 19, 2004

Originally posted by USNationalist@Jan 19 2004, 01:52 PM
The missionaries invited me.
Blessed- But dont you consider the LDS church to be false? and visa versa? If God is speaking to President Hinkly wouldnt that deminish the legitamacy of the RLDS claims that prophets must be desendants of JS? And wouldnt God speaking to President Grant McMurry deminish the claims of the LDS that their prophets are the true ones?

Oddly enough my answer is no. Shall I explain or does that suffice?

Behunin · January 19, 2004

Originally posted by USNationalist@Jan 19 2004, 01:52 PM
The missionaries invited me.

I hope that was a good thing for you. Are you keeping your mind open?

Traveler · January 20, 2004

Originally posted by USNationalist@Jan 19 2004, 12:45 AM
It is my personal opinion that there are no "prophets" anymore. But i was at a mormon church today and they were talking about the reaons they have prophets.
So my question is, how do the LDS and RLDS view each others prophets? They both claim that God communicates his will through them, so what makes one side their faith has legitamate prophets and the others are false?

The Book of Revelation tells us that the "testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophesy”. I would understand that if the spirit of prophesy is no longer with mankind there could be no prophets. Jesus told us that all scriptures given to mankind through the ancient prophets were likewise a witness of him. I am sorry and with deep regret that you do not recognize prophets with the Testimony of Jesus Christ among man in this day and age as there was in ages long past. But then Jesus says that for the most part – prophets have been rejected in their time – I do not see why our time should be an exception.

The Traveler

HalleysComet · January 20, 2004

Originally posted by Behunin@Jan 19 2004, 02:14 PM

The missionaries invited me.

Thank you for keeping your word about keeping an open mind... The resident blonde.
Halley

Kevin · January 20, 2004

US, I think you mean to ask whether the LDS prophets and the RLDS prophets are, by definition, mutually exclusive. If so, then I would have to say yes. If Gordon B. Hinckley is indeed God's mouthpiece to the world then the RLDS prophet can not be. GBH, past LDS prophets and LDS doctrine have made it clear that the LDS church is the only church directed by and approved of by God upon the earth. This seems to be in direct opposition to any who claim otherwise. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the RLDS church does claim otherwise.

Jenda · January 20, 2004

Originally posted by Kevin@Jan 19 2004, 06:16 PM
US, I think you mean to ask whether the LDS prophets and the RLDS prophets are, by definition, mutually exclusive. If so, then I would have to say yes. If Gordon B. Hinckley is indeed God's mouthpiece to the world then the RLDS prophet can not be. GBH, past LDS prophets and LDS doctrine have made it clear that the LDS church is the only church directed by and approved of by God upon the earth. This seems to be in direct opposition to any who claim otherwise. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the RLDS church does claim otherwise.

The RLDS is no more. The Community of Christ no longer believes in the restored priesthood (as it was restored by JS,Jr.) They are moving toward the priesthood of believers. As such, they believe that each church has leaders that are called by God, whether they call themselves prophets or not.

The Restorationists, who are the children of the RLDS, do still believe in the restored priesthood. They believe that there is not a prophet at this point in time, but that the RLDS church will be cleansed by God and a prophet restored to lead it again.

USNationalist · January 20, 2004

I told the missionaries i wouild keep an open mind and i intend to. And have been praying reguarding that. It has been my long standing belief that the LDS church is not the restored church and that its claims of being the one true church are false. Many of their doctrine seem contrary to biblical doctrines, or are at least new, and im not keen to those either. But if it is the true church it seems to be that i would want to be aparty to it. heh

<<As such, they believe that each church has leaders that are called by God, whether they call themselves prophets or not.>>

-thats pretty much what i believe.

Jenda-

at one time they did make the claim even if they don't now. If thats true, either it was a false claim or the LDS claim is a flase claim. Kevin seemed to understand what i was saying.

If one of you is wrong, what defence do you use to support the validity of your prophets, that can not be used just as easily by the opposition? And what claims of opposition can you make agaisnt them that cant be made agaisnt you? Both your teams have done the moroni prayer scene i imagine. But if one of you is wrong then wouldnt that take away from the "testimonies" that mormons hold from the perseieved confirmation of the spirit that their faith is true? Seems to me is someone says God said the same thing to them that he did to you about his faith being true, when your faiths are in opposition that both testimonies should be questioned.

I have a real problem with LDS trying to validate their faith in that manner.... maybe its just me.

Jenda · January 20, 2004

Originally posted by USNationalist@Jan 19 2004, 08:23 PM
Jenda-
at one time they did make the claim even if they don't now. If thats true, either it was a false claim or the LDS claim is a flase claim. Kevin seemed to understand what i was saying.
If one of you is wrong, what defence do you use to support the validity of your prophets, that can not be used just as easily by the opposition? And what claims of opposition can you make agaisnt them that cant be made agaisnt you? Both your teams have done the moroni prayer scene i imagine. But if one of you is wrong then wouldnt that take away from the "testimonies" that mormons hold from the perseieved confirmation of the spirit that their faith is true? Seems to me is someone says God said the same thing to them that he did to you about his faith being true, when your faiths are in opposition that both testimonies should be questioned.
I have a real problem with LDS trying to validate their faith in that manner.... maybe its just me.

USN,

You are correct. The RLDS church did for a very long time make that claim, it has only been recently that they don't. The Restorationists still do, though, through what they perceive is left of the RLDS church.

The answer to your big question revolves around how we see authority passed on, and we have, through the discussion surrounding succession in the presidency (from Joseph Smith's time) discussed this. We (the RLDS) believe it is passed on through lineage and that the current prophet gets to decide who his successor will be (and there are several scriptures from the D&C that support this), and the LDS believe that it just passes automatically from the current president of the church to the head of the quorum of twelve apostles (there is really no substantial scriptural support for this view (except in a revelation delineating where the power of the church lies, and it supposedly lies equally with the presidency, the quorum of twelve and the seventy.))

But again, you are right. If one is the "true church", the other can't be.

Kevin · January 20, 2004

USN,

Interesting questions. I'll try to respond.

If one of you is wrong, what defence do you use to support the validity of your prophets, that can not be used just as easily by the opposition? And what claims of opposition can you make agaisnt them that cant be made agaisnt you?

I'm not sure if I understand your first question. If I were wrong I'd hope I had the sense to not try and defend that which I know to be wrong. I don't make any claims of opposition agains the RLDS (COC). I simply have my beliefs which I'm happy to share with anyone. They can do what they will with it. I hope they will develop a relationship with God such that they are able to receive inspiration from him (if they don't already have one) so they can learn from God what is right.

Both your teams have done the moroni prayer scene i imagine. But if one of you is wrong then wouldnt that take away from the "testimonies" that mormons hold from the perseieved confirmation of the spirit that their faith is true? Seems to me is someone says God said the same thing to them that he did to you about his faith being true, when your faiths are in opposition that both testimonies should be questioned. I have a real problem with LDS trying to validate their faith in that manner.... maybe its just me.

I started to respond to these questions and then realized that I'm not quite sure what you're asking. Perhaps you could clarify a little.

January 20, 2004

Originally posted by Kevin@Jan 19 2004, 06:16 PM
US, I think you mean to ask whether the LDS prophets and the RLDS prophets are, by definition, mutually exclusive. If so, then I would have to say yes. If Gordon B. Hinckley is indeed God's mouthpiece to the world then the RLDS prophet can not be. GBH, past LDS prophets and LDS doctrine have made it clear that the LDS church is the only church directed by and approved of by God upon the earth. This seems to be in direct opposition to any who claim otherwise. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the RLDS church does claim otherwise.

I take exception to this statement. :)

I believe there can be many prophets walking the earth doing the work of the Lord in a part of His vineyard meant for them.

We even believe (in the church) that Martin Luther was a servant of the Lord in preparing the world for the restoration.

A prophet is...and should always be considered a prophet for one reason and one reason only....He has the gift of prophecy.

By his fruit ye shall know him to be a prophet or not. Holding a seat in the presidency does not a prophet make...according to the scriptures.

Yet, I have seen President Hinckley do some pretty impressive things, which I believe his mission on this earth is fulfilled by.

A prophet is to warn, by the spirit of prophecy, teach doctrine with a voice of warning by the spirit, ...and be the mouthpiece of God to his 'stewardship' ....

I believe President Hinckley does all of these things. But I KNOW he is far from being the only one...

I Know of prophets...who are just like Abinadi, who have been given the gift of prohecy...and done all of the above as well, who are not in the 'leadership' of the church.

As for being the one to exclusively hold the keys as explained in the D&C...well that is a whole other topic.

USNationalist · January 20, 2004

Kevin-

ill try to clarify..... not good at it. Many things i say can only really be understood by me, heh.

-Ok so there is one true church, one of them is false. And has a false pophet. Both RLDS and LDS have prayed, in the manner that moroni told them to.... chapter 10 i think. And both will claim that the spirit has told them their faith is true. But if one of the 2 churches is false, then doesnt that call into question the hole idea of trying to verify your faith with that prayer? If RLDS can claim to have the same testimonies that the spirit told them their church is true that the LDS curch can, but still be the false church, wouldnt that be cause to questions whether it is a legitamate way to determine if your faith is true?

Blessed · January 20, 2004

Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 19 2004, 07:26 PM
The RLDS is no more. The Community of Christ no longer believes in the restored priesthood (as it was restored by JS,Jr.) They are moving toward the priesthood of believers. As such, they believe that each church has leaders that are called by God, whether they call themselves prophets or not.
The Restorationists, who are the children of the RLDS, do still believe in the restored priesthood. They believe that there is not a prophet at this point in time, but that the RLDS church will be cleansed by God and a prophet restored to lead it again.

Jenda,

With ALL due respect and with the most sincerest of love... you are wayyy out of line here. Way out.

You say the RLDS is no more and while the name may not be, I still consider myself RLDS and always will. So so many others I know.

Also, please do not make blanket statements that the Community of Christ does not believe in the restored priesthood... you know as well as I do I could rattle of names and not stop till next Tuesday morning of those who still believe in that. There are also just as many who also say we have a prophet INCLUDING the man himself, Grant McMurray.

YOU are a "restorationist". I am an active member of Community of Christ.

Please do not be so insultiung. I am sadded EVEN further this morning now.

:angry:

Jenda · January 20, 2004

Originally posted by Blessed+Jan 20 2004, 04:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Blessed @ Jan 20 2004, 04:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jan 19 2004, 07:26 PM
The RLDS is no more. The Community of Christ no longer believes in the restored priesthood (as it was restored by JS,Jr.) They are moving toward the priesthood of believers. As such, they believe that each church has leaders that are called by God, whether they call themselves prophets or not.
The Restorationists, who are the children of the RLDS, do still believe in the restored priesthood. They believe that there is not a prophet at this point in time, but that the RLDS church will be cleansed by God and a prophet restored to lead it again.

Jenda,

With ALL due respect and with the most sincerest of love... you are wayyy out of line here. Way out.

You say the RLDS is no more and while the name may not be, I still consider myself RLDS and always will. So so many others I know.

Also, please do not make blanket statements that the Community of Christ does not believe in the restored priesthood... you know as well as I do I could rattle of names and not stop till next Tuesday morning of those who still believe in that. There are also just as many who also say we have a prophet INCLUDING the man himself, Grant McMurray.

YOU are a "restorationist". I am an active member of Community of Christ.

Please do not be so insultiung. I am sadded EVEN further this morning now.

:angry:

Sorry to hurt your feelings, Blessed. I do know what you and many others in the church believe, but that is different from what the institutional church has expressed and embraced. They have moved from the belief that what we have is a restored priesthood alone in divine authority from God to believing that our priesthood is "divine" for our church, but all other priesthood is divine for their churches. They have moved from the belief that one should struggle to be as sin-free as they can in order to be called to the priesthood, to stand in the stead of Christ, to a belief that all sin and we are not going to stick our nose in other peoples business and ask that they really try to uphold their priesthood vows.

What you see and embrace in the church are the same things I did for so long (they were the only things that kept me there), but you can't, or at least I couldn't, watch the church move to positions that are not in harmony with God's teachings and believe that God blesses the direction that the church is heading. Does God still work with people in the church? Sure. I have never stopped believing that, but the institution continues to move away from God's leading.

I might be a restorationist, but I am still an active member of the CoC.

January 20, 2004

Originally posted by USNationalist@Jan 20 2004, 12:21 AM
Kevin-
ill try to clarify..... not good at it. Many things i say can only really be understood by me, heh.
-Ok so there is one true church, one of them is false. And has a false pophet. Both RLDS and LDS have prayed, in the manner that moroni told them to.... chapter 10 i think. And both will claim that the spirit has told them their faith is true. But if one of the 2 churches is false, then doesnt that call into question the hole idea of trying to verify your faith with that prayer? If RLDS can claim to have the same testimonies that the spirit told them their church is true that the LDS curch can, but still be the false church, wouldnt that be cause to questions whether it is a legitamate way to determine if your faith is true?

There is only one true church....and it isn't denominational.

1 Ne. 14: 10

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

Only those who are born again, are of the church of the Lamb.

Remember....charity/the pure love of Christ... is only given to us from Christ when we have been born again or been made new/clean from sin...

Moroni 10:

6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.

8 And again, I exhort you, my brethren, that ye deny not the gifts of God, for they are many; and they come from the same God. And there are different ways that these gifts are administered; but it is the same God who worketh all in all; and they are given by the manifestations of the Spirit of God unto men, to profit them.

9 For behold, to one is given by the Spirit of God, that he may teach the word of wisdom;

10 And to another, that he may teach the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

11 And to another, exceedingly great faith; and to another, the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

12 And again, to another, that he may work mighty miracles;

13 And again, to another, that he may prophesy concerning all things;

14 And again, to another, the beholding of angels and ministering spirits;

15 And again, to another, all kinds of tongues;

16 And again, to another, the interpretation of languages and of divers kinds of tongues.

17 And all these gifts come by the Spirit of Christ; and they come unto every man severally, according as he will.

18 And I would exhort you, my beloved brethren, that ye remember that every good bgift cometh of Christ.

19 And I would exhort you, my beloved brethren, that ye remember that he is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and that all these gifts of which I have spoken, which are spiritual, never will be done away, even as long as the world shall stand, only according to the unbelief of the children of men.

20 Wherefore, there must be faith; and if there must be faith there must also be hope; and if there must be hope there must also be charity.

21 And except ye have charity ye can in nowise be saved in the kingdom of God; neither can ye be saved in the kingdom of God if ye have not faith; neither can ye if ye have no hope.

22 And if ye have no hope ye must needs be in despair; and despair cometh because of iniquity.

23 And Christ truly said unto our fathers: If ye have faith ye can do all things which are expedient unto me.

24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of bunbelief.

25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God.

26 And wo unto them who shall do these things away and die, for they die in their sins, and they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God; and I speak it according to the words of Christ; and I lie not.

27 And I exhort you to remember these things; for the time speedily cometh that ye shall know that I lie not, for ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man, like as one crying from the dead, yea, even as one speaking out of the dust?

28 I declare these things unto the fulfilling of the prophecies. And behold, they shall proceed forth out of the mouth of the everlasting God; and his word shall hiss forth from generation to generation.

29 And God shall show unto you, that that which I have written is atrue.

30 And again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing.

31 And awake, and arise from the dust, O Jerusalem; yea, and put on thy beautiful garments, O daughter of bZion; and strengthen thy stakes and enlarge thy borders forever, that thou mayest no more be confounded, that the covenants of the Eternal Father which he hath made unto thee, O house of Israel, may be fulfilled.

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

You must receive no only the baptism of water, but of fire and the holy ghost. The baptism of fire and the holy Ghost are rebirth.

Remember also....God will do what He will do...His power and authority can be given by Him and TAKEN away by Him without men's approval ..... (D&C 121:37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.)

Kevin · January 20, 2004

Originally posted by Peace+Jan 19 2004, 11:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Peace @ Jan 19 2004, 11:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Kevin@Jan 19 2004, 06:16 PM
US, I think you mean to ask whether the LDS prophets and the RLDS prophets are, by definition, mutually exclusive. If so, then I would have to say yes. If Gordon B. Hinckley is indeed God's mouthpiece to the world then the RLDS prophet can not be. GBH, past LDS prophets and LDS doctrine have made it clear that the LDS church is the only church directed by and approved of by God upon the earth. This seems to be in direct opposition to any who claim otherwise. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the RLDS church does claim otherwise.