Tr2 Posted April 1, 2004 Report Posted April 1, 2004 I guess anybody that disagrees with Snow must be lying! That is an awfully convenient evasive maneuver! Yep!
Snow Posted April 2, 2004 Report Posted April 2, 2004 Originally posted by Tr2@Apr 1 2004, 04:13 PM I guess anybody that disagrees with Snow must be lying! That is an awfully convenient evasive maneuver! Yep! Wrong again.Disagreeing with me simply means you disagree with me. When you tell a lie, I call you on it, and I say what the lie is and why it is a lie and usually provide the evidence or point you toward it.If you don't like getting caught, stop doing it.
Snow Posted April 2, 2004 Report Posted April 2, 2004 Originally posted by Stephen@Apr 1 2004, 09:20 AM That would be a neat trick. Unless you plan on posting the quote from Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses that says that Heavenly Father had sexual intercourse with Mary. How hard do you think it is going to be for me to prove you wrong? I am not even going to wake up for this one.Stephen's claim: Jesus Christ is the only person that walked the earth that had no biological parents. This is biblical. Even the Mormon Church acknowledges this even if you are ignorant of it.Snow's claim: Stephen is lying and every Mormon knows it.The proof of Snow's claimThe Son of God is the literal, physical son of God (hence the use of the term "son").Ancient and modern scriptures use the title Only Begotten to emphasize the divine nature of Jesus Christ. Latter-day Saints recognize Jesus as literally the Only Begotten Son of God the Father in the flesh (John 3:16; D&C 93:11; Moses 6:52). This title signifies that Jesus' physical body was the offspring of a mortal mother and of the eternal Father (Luke 1:35, 1 Ne. 11:18). It is LDS doctrine that Jesus Christ is the child of mary and God the Father, "not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof" (JC, p. 81). The fact of Jesus' being the literal Son of God in the flesh is crucial to the Atonement, which could not have been accomplished by an ordinary man. Source of the quote: Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol. 2, Jesus Christ, Only Begotten, Copyright © 1992 by Macmillan Publishing CompanyThe EoM is approved by the First Presidency. Maybe Stephen thinks he understands LDS doctrine better than the First Presidency of the Church but I can assure you that he does not.The above is perfectly clear that Jesus is the literal physical son of God but just in case Stephen wants to persist is his deceit about LDS doctrine, let's go right to the sorce of LDS doctrine - the scriptures:John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."Maybe Stephen does not understand the word begotton????? Definition: "[adj] (of offspring) generated by procreation; "naturally begotten child" Synonyms: biological"1 Nephi 18 "Behold the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, AFTER THE MANNER OF THE FLESH."Now I considered the possibility that Stephen was just lying again in an attempt to set up another lie that LDS belief is that there was an actual sex act again. Yes, he is that clumsy. Let him try. I might even wake up to address that deceit.Want more?"The LDS Church proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense." (Gospel Principles)
Stephen Posted April 2, 2004 Author Report Posted April 2, 2004 QUOTE=srm,Apr 1 2004, 02:15 PM QUOTE=Stephen,Apr 1 2004, 10:16 AM QUOTE=srm,Mar 31 2004, 10:18 PM So, I can't just accept Jesus? I have to know a lot about him? What if I am pricked in my heart at a church meeting and I accept Jesus then get hit by a car and die before I can learn all the extra stuff about him...am I doomed to hell? It would all depend on what Jesus Christ you were placing your faith and trust in.If you were placing your faith and trust in the Jesus Christ described in the Bible then you certainly would be Saved. If you were placing your faith and trust in the Jesus Christ described by the Mormon Church that does not exist who is the first born spirit child of Heavenly Parents then...you fate would be eternasl torment in Hell.As mentioned before...........there is no salvation in a counterfeit Jesus Christ.
Stephen Posted April 2, 2004 Author Report Posted April 2, 2004 The expression "only begotten" is a poorly translated Greek word. This word actually means "unique," "only," or "only one of its' kind." This expression is found in the familiar passage, For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. (NASB) John 3:16 Meaning. The Greek word for "only begotten" is MONOGENES. It is a compound word made of two other Greek words MONOS meaning "only" and GENOS meaning "kind or race." If we combine the words we get "only kind" or "unique."
Guest Starsky Posted April 2, 2004 Report Posted April 2, 2004 So you are saying that that phrase is redundant....'only...only'....instead of only begotten?
Stephen Posted April 2, 2004 Author Report Posted April 2, 2004 Originally posted by Snow+Apr 1 2004, 06:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Apr 1 2004, 06:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Stephen@Apr 1 2004, 09:20 AM That would be a neat trick. Unless you plan on posting the quote from Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses that says that Heavenly Father had sexual intercourse with Mary. How hard do you think it is going to be for me to prove you wrong? I am not even going to wake up for this one.Stephen's claim: Jesus Christ is the only person that walked the earth that had no biological parents. This is biblical. Even the Mormon Church acknowledges this even if you are ignorant of it.Snow's claim: Stephen is lying and every Mormon knows it.The proof of Snow's claimThe Son of God is the literal, physical son of God (hence the use of the term "son").Ancient and modern scriptures use the title Only Begotten to emphasize the divine nature of Jesus Christ. Latter-day Saints recognize Jesus as literally the Only Begotten Son of God the Father in the flesh (John 3:16; D&C 93:11; Moses 6:52). This title signifies that Jesus' physical body was the offspring of a mortal mother and of the eternal Father (Luke 1:35, 1 Ne. 11:18). It is LDS doctrine that Jesus Christ is the child of mary and God the Father, "not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof" (JC, p. 81). The fact of Jesus' being the literal Son of God in the flesh is crucial to the Atonement, which could not have been accomplished by an ordinary man. Source of the quote: Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol. 2, Jesus Christ, Only Begotten, Copyright © 1992 by Macmillan Publishing CompanyThe EoM is approved by the First Presidency. Maybe Stephen thinks he understands LDS doctrine better than the First Presidency of the Church but I can assure you that he does not.The above is perfectly clear that Jesus is the literal physical son of God but just in case Stephen wants to persist is his deceit about LDS doctrine, let's go right to the sorce of LDS doctrine - the scriptures:John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."Maybe Stephen does not understand the word begotton????? Definition: "[adj] (of offspring) generated by procreation; "naturally begotten child" Synonyms: biological"1 Nephi 18 "Behold the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, AFTER THE MANNER OF THE FLESH."Now I considered the possibility that Stephen was just lying again in an attempt to set up another lie that LDS belief is that there was an actual sex act again. Yes, he is that clumsy. Let him try. I might even wake up to address that deceit.Want more?"The LDS Church proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense." (Gospel Principles) I admit that I was wrong about Mormon doctrine and I'm sorry about that. I was under the impression that Mormons believed the same thing as mainstream Christianity on this issue.It is still dishonest of you to say that I was lying about LDS doctrine when it was simply a misunderstanding. That is called character assasination and bearing false witness.
Snow Posted April 2, 2004 Report Posted April 2, 2004 Originally posted by Stephen@Apr 1 2004, 08:54 PM I admit that I was wrong about Mormon doctrine and I'm sorry about that. I was under the impression that Mormons believed the same thing as mainstream Christianity on this issue.It is still dihonest of you to say that I was lying about LDS doctrine when it was simply a misunderstanding. That is called character assasination and bearing fasle witness. Theorectically you were Mormon up till a short while ago. You photo looked like you even went on a mission. Mission or not, have you never read the Book of Mormon, never read the Bible or knew what the word "begotten" means?Never looked at Mormon Doctrine, never read Doctrines of Salvation, an Ensign article, listened in Church?That's hard to believe Stephen. It's not like it is an obscure point. Mormons are a pretty literal people. The Bible says Son, the Bible says begotten (although it's possibly a mistranslation). Given the amount of other times you have recently misstated facts (that I have pointed out over the past 3 weeks), I would have no reason to believe this time was any different. It's not character assasination if it is true.You don't like me handling you roughly? Then be an honest and fair poster. Don't misstate, don't mock, don't deny Mormons the right to their own self-understanding. While you're at it, proselytize all you want but knock of the crap about not being Christian. Promote your own view and stop denigrating ours. Then I think I can be fair and if not respectful, at least not an ogre.
srm Posted April 2, 2004 Report Posted April 2, 2004 So, you believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly? I got a list of versions of that verse. Most of them do retain the only begotten in it. I especially like the Young's literal...according to that one the literal translation is The only begotten. John 3:16 :: New International Version (NIV) Listen to this Read the commentary Printer-Friendly Page Bookmark this PagePrevious chapter | This chapter | Next chapterJohn 316"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[1] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. Footnotes3:16 Or his only begotten Son © Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible SocietyAll rights reserved worldwideJohn 3:16 :: New American Standard Bible (NASB)John 316 "For God so (1) loved the world, that He (2) gave His (3) only begotten Son, that whoever (4) believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. © Copyright 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman FoundationJohn 3:16 :: The Message (MSG)John 316"This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life. © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. PetersonJohn 3:16 :: Amplified Bible (AMP)John 316For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten ([1] unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.FootnotesJames Moulton and George Milligan, The Vocabulary. © Copyright 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman FoundationJohn 3:16 :: New Living Translation (NLT)John 316"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. Holy Bible. New Living Translation copyright © 1996 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers.John 3:16 :: King James Version (KJV) Printer-Friendly Page Bookmark this PagePrevious chapter | This chapter | Next chapterJohn 316 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.Public DomainJohn 3:16 :: New Life Version (NLV)John 316For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son. Whoever puts his trust in God's Son will not be lost but will have life that lasts forever.1969 by Christian Literature InternationalJohn 3:16 :: English Standard Version (ESV) Listen to this Printer-Friendly Page Bookmark this PagePrevious chapter | This chapter | Next chapterJohn 3For God So Loved the World16 "For God so loved the world,[1] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.FootnotesOr For this is how God loved the world The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 by Crossway Bibles, a division of Good News Publishers.John 3:16 :: Contemporary English Version (CEV) Listen to this Printer-Friendly Page Bookmark this PagePrevious chapter | This chapter | Next chapterJohn 316God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in him will have eternal life and never really die. © Copyright 1995 by American Bible SocietyJohn 3:16 :: New King James Version (NKJV) Printer-Friendly Page Bookmark this PagePrevious chapter | This chapter | Next chapterJohn 316For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.© Copyright 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.John 3:16 :: 21st Century King James Version (KJ21) Printer-Friendly Page Bookmark this PagePrevious chapter | This chapter | Next chapterJohn 316 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.© Copyright 1994 by Deuel Enterprises, Inc.John 3:16 :: American Standard Version (ASV)John 316 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.© Copyright 1901Public DomainJohn 3:16 :: Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)John 316 `God loved the world so very, very much that he gave his only Son. Because he did that, everyone who believes in him will not lose his life, but will live for ever. © Copyright by SOON Educational PublicationsJohn 3:16 :: Young's Literal Translation (YLT)John 316 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.Public DomainJohn 3:16 :: Darby Translation (DARBY)John 316 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal.Public DomainJohn 3:16 :: Wycliffe New Testament (WYC)John 316 For God loved so the world [Forsooth God so loved the world], that he gave his one begotten Son, that each man that believeth in him perish not, but have everlasting life. 2001 by Terrence P. Noble,John 3:16 :: New International Reader's Version (NIRV)John 316 "God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son. Anyone who believes in him will not die but will have eternal life. © Copyright © 1996, 1998 by International Bible Society. by All rights reserved worldwide.John 3:16 :: New International Version - UK (NIV-UK)John 316 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Snow Posted April 2, 2004 Report Posted April 2, 2004 SRM, I'm not sure where I ran across it, I'm checking a few books right now, but I did read something where it was argued that "begotten" was problematic. Still checking...
Snow Posted April 2, 2004 Report Posted April 2, 2004 I just got this at random from the internet. I pass it along without comment to its validity or applicability:Christ not only was born of flesh, he was also begotten of flesh. Christ not only was born of Spirit, he was also begotten of the Spirit. But because of the vagueness of a Greek word many don't understand this. The word translated born in many English translations comes from the Greek word, gennao. In contrast, this Greek word can mean either to beget or to be born. In the English language we have two separate words for the process of being begotten and being born. But the Greek word gennao can be used to mean either being begotten or being born. Because of this there is ambiguity when translating gennao into English.nm76» Being begotten is the same as being conceived, or fertilized, or impregnated. To be begotten is to be conceived. An egg-cell is begotten by a sperm cell. This is being begotten. Once begotten an egg-cell grows inside the womb of its mother. Allegorically, a Christian is begotten by the Spirit of God and grows Spiritually inside the womb of the Church, their heavenly mother, or Spiritual mother.nm77» But after the egg-cell has grown inside the mother's womb it is born of mankind. Allegorically, after a Christian is begotten, he grows Spiritually in the Church's womb until he is born of God. Isa 66:6-8 pictures the Christians all at once being born of God. This will happen at the last trumpet (1Cor 15:52-55; Rev 11:15). This is the time of Christ's physical return (1Thess 4:15-18).nm78» Therefore because the New Testament was written in Greek, and because in Greek there is a word that can express two different processes or stages of birth, and because this Greek word (gennao) was used in verses to express either "begotten" and/or "born," and because those who translated the Bible didn't understand God's plan; then the translators sometimes mistranslated "born" where they should have translated "begotten" and vice versa. And because of this vagueness of the Greek word gennao many people today don't understand what it means to be begotten or born of God. (Many places, if not all places, where gennao is used, can be and should be understood in the sense of begotten and/or born.) See "Last War and God's Wrath" PR5, in its Notes for more information or details on "begotten" and "born."http://becomingone.org/nm/nm5.htm
Stephen Posted April 2, 2004 Author Report Posted April 2, 2004 Originally posted by Snow@Apr 1 2004, 09:15 PM You don't like me handling you roughly? Then be an honest and fair poster. Don't misstate, don't mock, don't deny Mormons the right to their own self-understanding. While you're at it, proselytize all you want but knock of the crap about not being Christian. Promote your own view and stop denigrating ours. Then I think I can be fair and if not respectful, at least not an ogre. I have been honest. It is my honesty that apparently disturbes you. I believe that Mormons believe in a different Jesus Christ then the one described in the Bible. You don't like that I believe that........then get over it! I have read Ensign articles and the Bible and Book of Mormon many times. I know BYU professors and other LDS members who accept what the greek word for "only begotten" actually means. "only begotten" is MONOGENES...... "only kind" or "unique." There are many members in the LDS Church and there are many that I know of that believe the same way that mainstream Christianity does about Jesus Christ. The reality is that the Mormon Church is a pot pouri of various different beliefs about who God is and what the nature of God is, what the plan of salvation is, ect. If being a jerk is what you are good at Snow.........then by all means continue on. It just shows that you have a low tolerance for people who believe things alot differently than you do. Its more of a reflection of yourself than anything else. Don't blame me for your nasty attitude.
Stephen Posted April 2, 2004 Author Report Posted April 2, 2004 The Greek word for "only begotten" is MONOGENES. It is a compound word made of two other Greek words MONOS meaning "only" and GENOS meaning "kind or race." If we combine the words we get "only kind" or "unique." Most of us are familiar with Abraham and his eight sons: Ishmael (Gen. 16:15), Issac (Gen. 21:3) and six other sons by Keturah (Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah, Gen. 25:1-2). Issac was not Abraham's first born son, but he was Abraham's special son (Gen. 17:19), being the promised one from God. Now turn to Hebrews 11:17, By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac; and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; it was he to whom it was said, "IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED." (NASB) Hebrews 11:17-18 Notice that Isaac is called "only begotten." Was Isaac Abraham's only son? No! He had eight sons. The Greek word has been misunderstood and poorly translated. It does not mean he was born. The Greek word means "unique" or "one and only." Some of the newer Bible translations such as the New Century Version, New International Version, and the New Living Translation are now using the correct wording. Here is the NIV's wording, For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (NIV) John 3:16 Jesus is the one and only Son of God - not created and not made. And since the expression "Son of God" was an ancient expression meaning that Jesus was and is God, Jesus is the one and only God. He is the eternal One!
Stephen Posted April 2, 2004 Author Report Posted April 2, 2004 One must also realize that if Mormon Doctrine was easy to pin down then there would not be so much confusion regarding.......what is "official LDS doctrine". People would have a clear cut understanding and there would not be the confusion.
Snow Posted April 2, 2004 Report Posted April 2, 2004 Originally posted by Stephen+Apr 2 2004, 08:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Stephen @ Apr 2 2004, 08:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Apr 1 2004, 09:15 PM You don't like me handling you roughly? Then be an honest and fair poster. Don't misstate, don't mock, don't deny Mormons the right to their own self-understanding. While you're at it, proselytize all you want but knock of the crap about not being Christian. Promote your own view and stop denigrating ours. Then I think I can be fair and if not respectful, at least not an ogre. I have been honest. It is my honesty that apparently disturbes you. I believe that Mormons believe in a different Jesus Christ then the one described in the Bible. You don't like that I believe that........then get over it! I have read Ensign articles and the Bible and Book of Mormon many times. I know BYU professors and other LDS members who accept what the greek word for "only begotten" actually means. "only begotten" is MONOGENES...... "only kind" or "unique." There are many members in the LDS Church and there are many that I know of that believe the same way that mainstream Christianity does about Jesus Christ. The reality is that the Mormon Church is a pot pouri of various different beliefs about who God is and what the nature of God is, what the plan of salvation is, ect. If being a jerk is what you are good at Snow.........then by all means continue on. It just shows that you have a low tolerance for people who believe things alot differently than you do. Its more of a reflection of yourself than anything else. Don't blame me for your nasty attitude. It doesn't matter if you actually believe the lie that you are telling Stephen. Your lack of reasoning skills is not the issue. The issue is whether or not Mormon's believe in and accept the Christ spoke of in the New Testament who was born of the Virgin Mary and is the Son of God, who was crucified and died for our sins. That is factual. Statements to the contrary was false.You may actually believe that they don't (although it is so irrational that frankly I don't believe you) but it does not change what Mormons actually believe in. An honest man, a decent man, a moral man would admit the truth--- which is that Mormon conception of Christ's attributes are, in your opinion, so different from what your opinion of those attributes should be, that even though Mormon accept Christ as their Savior, he will send them to hell.That's the truth. You can call me a jerk all you want but I am not the one who is lying.Besides that lie, you just told another lie. Two lies in one post. Par for the course. I am not intolerant of people with differing opinions. I have been to more Church services of different denominations than anyone on this board over the past two years and have reported favorably on every single one of them. It is liars and anti-Mormons that I am intolerant -- not because of their religious belief s, but because they are liars and antiMormons.How do you reconcile lying with being a Christian?
srm Posted April 2, 2004 Report Posted April 2, 2004 Originally posted by Stephen@Apr 2 2004, 08:46 AM The Greek word for "only begotten" is MONOGENES. It is a compound word made of two other Greek words MONOS meaning "only" and GENOS meaning "kind or race." If we combine the words we get "only kind" or "unique."Most of us are familiar with Abraham and his eight sons: Ishmael (Gen. 16:15), Issac (Gen. 21:3) and six other sons by Keturah (Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah, Gen. 25:1-2). Issac was not Abraham's first born son, but he was Abraham's special son (Gen. 17:19), being the promised one from God. Now turn to Hebrews 11:17, By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac; and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; it was he to whom it was said, "IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED." (NASB) Hebrews 11:17-18 Notice that Isaac is called "only begotten." Was Isaac Abraham's only son? No! He had eight sons. The Greek word has been misunderstood and poorly translated. It does not mean he was born. The Greek word means "unique" or "one and only." Some of the newer Bible translations such as the New Century Version, New International Version, and the New Living Translation are now using the correct wording. Here is the NIV's wording, For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (NIV) John 3:16 Jesus is the one and only Son of God - not created and not made. And since the expression "Son of God" was an ancient expression meaning that Jesus was and is God, Jesus is the one and only God. He is the eternal One! I like Young's literal translation because it is....well, literal.I'd like to address this but first I do find it interesting that you have no problem with melchisedic being an imperfect example (obviously he did have father and mother). You don't mind calling mary an adopted mother when the Bible doesn't say it. But you cling to a little verse about Abraham. Anyway i find that interesting that you are so willing to interpret the verses to suit yourself.
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