The Statement "i Know The Church Is True"

[CrimsonKairos]

roman, I wasn't commenting on how you approached the Church.

For example, when I said, "To start out by saying, "God would never do such and such..." cuts off the spirit of revelation because you've stuck your metaphorical fingers in your inner ears and wouldn't hear the still, small voice even if it spoke to you of the truth of the LDS Church's teachings and authority." I was using the word "you" in a generic sense.

Your advice was to the original poster investigating the Church. My reply to your advice was also directed at the original poster. If my message was unclear, allow me to elucidate:

My point to him/her was that if you begin from a position of assuming you know exactly what God will and will not do, you shut yourself off to important truths which don't make it through your self-imposed filter.

Note: every time I used the word "you" above it was in a generic sense. I never targeted you, roman. Sorry you took it that way. My message was meant for the starter of this thread.

[LukeAir2006]

Roman, I hope you're sincere in your assertions. My experience, understanding, testimony is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the authorized church of the Lord. I feel that I am qualified to bear testimony because the Holy Ghost has confirmed to me that these things are true, and its only by the power of the Holy Ghost that we can know the truth of all things.

I've no doubt you will base your understanding of these things on your interpretation of the Holy Bible. What would have been your response if you had lived 2000 years ago and Peter had approached you and said' 'We are the true Saints of the Most High and have the truth and the authority to act in Gods name; and I Peter am the Senior Apostle and have the Priesthood Keys of the Kingdom and these keys were given to me by the Lord Jesus himself'. Would you have deferred to Peter's authority and direction or would you have rejected his testimony and maybe sought guidance from one of the long dead prophets of old such as Isaiah or Moses.

Paul was learned in the Scriptures and this lead him to oppose and persecute the true church of the Lord Jesus Christ. It took revelation from the Lord Jesus Christ himself to set Paul in the right direction. And even after a personal appearance from the Lord, it still required Ananias, a member of the church, to go to Paul, restore his sight, and baptize him into the Church of Jesus Christ. (Acts 9)

Would it have disturbed you that Peter announced that the Gentiles were to receive the Gospel? Peter received that instruction by revelation.(Acts 10) It CONTRADICTED the Scriptures and the writings of the Prophets. Again, would you have turned to your book of dead prophets for direction on that matter and have rejected Peter's words? Or would you have accepted the instruction of a living prophet and Apostle of the Lord?

It is my testimony that there are again living Apostles and Prophets on the earth who have received Keys and authority from the Lord Jesus Christ and who direct the church, not according to the words of dead prophets, but by current and continuing revelation from the Lord.

[roman]

Thanks to all who have tried to understand my postion and what I have said. --that is to exclusion of outshined and the travaler. Neither added one thing to the OP but made bad judgments, called names, made stuff up, and belittled things thay know nothing of. Typical --very typical and had absolutly no affect on me what so ever. I only mention it in passing to let them know--that they have competly ruined their testimony of any validity with me on the capacity to objectivly desern matters of faith and truth

What is so offencive of me encouranging an investigator to read the BoM and the JoD or that I threw in a couple of contraversial topics? What are these men afraid of-------------except to find what i did and get the answer I did .

a-train thank you for understanding and being confident enough in your faith to look a little deeper than some. I should have gone on and said earlier in all of this that after many years my lds family have also come to understand my faith and we all get along just great. We all love to set around and kick ideas, history and doctrine around. I is always fun and all have a good time. What changed their attitude towards me? They could no longer deny the presences of God in my life.

crimsonKairos

I accept your apology and now understand better what you were trying to say. But still you means you ---unless it is qualified as you have done .

I encourage many active investigators of the lds church to read THRIER material. It is in that you find the true lds beliefs and practices. I rarley send them to so-called anti sites on the web or to opposing books written by the churchs critics-------------as I said earlier God gave us to Holy spirit to lead us into ALL truth---so Ii choose to thrust God in where I'm at today--------I'm his handy work and bless his name forever

[Outshined]

I never asked a question. -------still making stuff up.

Someone has a short memory. From roman's first post: "do you really think that God would allow such practices or condone such behavior?" The little mark at the end make that a question. I answered it, you got bent out of shape. The only one "mad" here is you, breathless and asking "how dare you"... No one has "made up" anything here; that is just your unwillngness to hear. God has 'condoned' polygamy and the kind of 'racism' you decry throughout the Bible, that is beyond dispute. I know you don't like it and want to deny it, but it's in there. You do not understand it because you do not want to. That makes me sad for you.

As usual, you have offered more false accusations against others ("never added to the OP, made stuff up, and belittled things", all false accusations) and hands over your ears when rebutted. I've never expected anything from you except the same anti behavior, and sadly, you never disappoint. I saw nothing in your posts that addressed anything the OP asked. He asked about F&T meetings, sealings, and excommunication; you addressed none of those, as we did.

Remember, only one insecure in their faith has to tear down the beliefs of another to bolster his own...One day you will want to learn about LDS beliefs, and we'll still be willing to share them with you.

I encourage many active investigators of the lds church to read THRIER material. It is in that you find the true lds beliefs and practices.

Good advice for a change; the Bible, BOM, D&C, PGP, and Church materials are a great resource (noting of course that the JoD never was a Church publication and does not represent anyone's "true beliefs" beyond what is found in LDS doctrine).

Never be afraid to question your beliefs, roman. I spent 30 years in evangelical churches, went to seminary to become a minister, and yet found the truth in the LDS Church. Some day you will find the truth as well. I hope it is soon.

[Outshined]

Roman, I hope you're sincere in your assertions. My experience, understanding, testimony is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the authorized church of the Lord. I feel that I am qualified to bear testimony because the Holy Ghost has confirmed to me that these things are true, and its only by the power of the Holy Ghost that we can know the truth of all things.

I've no doubt you will base your understanding of these things on your interpretation of the Holy Bible. What would have been your response if you had lived 2000 years ago and Peter had approached you and said' 'We are the true Saints of the Most High and have the truth and the authority to act in Gods name; and I Peter am the Senior Apostle and have the Priesthood Keys of the Kingdom and these keys were given to me by the Lord Jesus himself'. Would you have deferred to Peter's authority and direction or would you have rejected his testimony and maybe sought guidance from one of the long dead prophets of old such as Isaiah or Moses.

Paul was learned in the Scriptures and this lead him to oppose and persecute the true church of the Lord Jesus Christ. It took revelation from the Lord Jesus Christ himself to set Paul in the right direction. And even after a personal appearance from the Lord, it still required Ananias, a member of the church, to go to Paul, restore his sight, and baptize him into the Church of Jesus Christ. (Acts 9)

Would it have disturbed you that Peter announced that the Gentiles were to receive the Gospel? Peter received that instruction by revelation.(Acts 10) It CONTRADICTED the Scriptures and the writings of the Prophets. Again, would you have turned to your book of dead prophets for direction on that matter and have rejected Peter's words? Or would you have accepted the instruction of a living prophet and Apostle of the Lord?

It is my testimony that there are again living Apostles and Prophets on the earth who have received Keys and authority from the Lord Jesus Christ and who direct the church, not according to the words of dead prophets, but by current and continuing revelation from the Lord.

Wise words, LukeAir2006...

[Outshined]

I already answered the F&T subject, but after some thought decided to address the others as well.

A friend of mine was threatend with excommunication when he was 17 for an indiscretion. He was told that if he did it again, he would be. I don't understand how someone from the local ward can decide what will happen to someones eternal soul, let alone give them "another chance".

Excommunication is as serious as it gets, for the most serious offenses, and really isn't 'decided' by the local ward. This has to go through a hearing and eventually through the Church Headquarters. Usually a warning is given, and you can be punished in other ways. Excommunication is reserved for the worst offenses, and so is not taken lightly. Such offenses are not performed accidentally; in such a case, it is the offender who has decided what will happen to his or her eternal soul...

One more thing, I have always been taught that families will be together, and husband and wife, if married by a man of God, transcends death, the two are one in God's eyes, because you have made a vow to God. You may get divorced in by a civil court, but you are commiting adultry in the eyes of God if you are "with" another person. Does the Mormon faith acknowledg this for other religions, or do you believe that everyone who is not Mormon will not be with any loved ones in any way. I understand 'sealing' in the Mormon faith, it's what you believe happens to the families who are not sealed by ceremony, but by love and faith in God, that I'm curious about.

We believe that marriages out of the Temple are 'until death do us part', as the ceremony states, though I can't imagine that you would be kept from seeing loved ones after death if you were not sealed. As an evangelical I was taught that marriage is dissolved upon death.

[a-train]

EXCOMMUNICATION

The world is, for the most part, completely unaware of the covenant making process known to the LDSs. Because of this, excommunication is also completely misunderstood. I am certain it seems to them that excommunication is nothing more than a means by which LDS Church leaders exert power over the membership to get them to do whatever the leadership wants them to do. It probably appears that those who seem to cause any trouble are thrown out in this manner.

Some of those so excommunicated my have already decided to become bitter enemies to the Church and go around painting this picture. These enemies attempt to pull the wool over our eyes and make us think that excommunication is done in fear and bitterness. They would say the only function of excommunication is to cast a man off, as if to cut him off from the love of God, as if to condemn him to hell.

THIS IS FAR FROM THE TRUTH.

Excommunicated members are not 'thrown out' and asked never to return. They are being asked to come to church, to work on repentance, and to get their life in order. They typically, if they will accept it, have special meetings with their Bishop often, many cases monthly. Those that are following the course that the LORD desires are in Church meetings, praying, reading scriptures, and doing all the things any LDS should, except those things that deal with covenants administered by the priesthood.

So what is excommunication in the LDS Church?

It is the severing of covenant bonds. It is a merciful act designed to bring a man closer to God and give him a more tolerable judgement. You see, if a person has engaged in a particular covenant with the LORD and cannot abide it, or keep it, the LORD in His mercy, has established a means by which He will withdraw the covenant that they may stand at least as one who had not made such a covenant rather than as a covenant breaker.

There is no function, action, or procedure in the Church or of the priesthood that is not expressly designed by God to bring men to Christ and excommunication is no exception.

This merciful act is not designed to get rid of people, but to get rid of covenants that people cannot keep.

GOD BLESS

-a-train

[Guest Username-Removed]

As in any issue, it is always a wise road to take in that you explore both sides of the coin to get a true and accurate assesment of things. I think that in your exploration of the lds church, that it would be a good idea to interact with some of the peoples who have found that the lds church -------is NOT what it calims to be.

Then and only then make up your mind on the validity of the truth and the history of the church.

Remember the lds church practiced racism against blacks till 1978 by forbidding them certain postions, simply because of their skin color.

They also practiced polygamy till the goverment forced them to drop it. Lds claim to be the restored church of Jesus Christ, but do you really think that God would allow such practices or condone such behavior?

Take a good long look at their history from both sides. Read the JoD for thier real beliefs and practices.

Yes on the outside the lds church is very attractive and looks good and does many many many wonderful things----------but it is a far cry from the NT church that Christ is actually building on this earth.

But--------------don't take my word on it, investigate it for yourself and by coming here and approching the subject as you have, you are well on your way.

As a side note, I have grown up around lds all my life---have family all around me that are lds--So I have seen all side of this issue. I was a drug addict for 17 years. when i got to the end of my rope I called upon Jesus and he came and set me free--------in just one moment. I was completly deliver and changed. Was my lds family happy for me----------NO the rejected me as I did not join the lds church. Oh I investigated and found my answer-------------- you will find your answer to and when you do, stick with it and give it all you got. r

Remember the Holy Spirit was given to lead you into ALL TRUTH and he won't dissapoint anyone searching in faith and honesty

Roman,

Im responding to your post above in my quote. Im so glad that you have found a way out of drug addiction. 17 years is a long time to be in that. I have been around it, and I have somewhat of an understanding enough to tell you that your change is admirable. I had friends that were in it and its nice to see someone like you get out of it.

Im sorry your family has rejected you. My family, who are not members, rejected me. My home ward where I was divorced from, also rejected me. I dont know if my life lessons will apply to you or not, but for me, in my circumstances, I learned that I just had to follow "that feeling" no matter what.

Its taken me a long time to forgive my family, and my home ward. But I have. I found that it was blocking my progression. When I asked for that block to be removed, Heavanly Father did it for me.

I still have people in the church that look down on me. I still have members of my family that think the same thing. I'm ok with that. I know my path is correct. And when I say I know the church is true, its more than just words to me. When I say it, I think of the things heavanly father has revealed to me on a personal level. When I say those words, I relive the very spiritual experiences all over again, with the hope that someone might also feel them. Im sorry if you may have been offended by the orgininal intent of the post.

If it would be alright with you, I would like to share some more of my testimony with you and anybody else reading this.

1) I know that God communicates to his children, and I know that he communicates to me.

2) I know that we are all Children of him.

3) I know that we can receive answers to prayers

4) I know that miracles can happen

5) I know my hevanly father wants me back to live with him

May we all find a way to come back to him.

[Outshined]

a-train, you made an excellent point that I didn't touch on.

There is no function, action, or procedure in the Church or of the priesthood that is not expressly designed by God to bring men to Christ and excommunication is no exception.

So true; excommunication is not a way of saying "we're through with you, go away", it is a chance for reflection on the seriousness of the transgression and repentance. Your explanation was excellent.

[JcDean78]

When I first joined the Church, I had a hard time with how much people talked about the Church and Joe Smith and how little people talked about God, Jesus, and the scriptures before the BOM.

Now after being in the Church for almost 10 years I can say that it all depends on the person speaking. Some people are just all about the BOM and Joe Smith and that is ALL they will talk about ever while others are more balanced and look at the whole picture. So we got a mix of people who look at things differently but share the same goals.

I know of many other Churchs that almost ignore the Old Test in favor of the new one. All they do is focus on the new and out with the old instead of looking at the larger picture. So I think this is really something you will see any place you go.

As for me, I look at the whole picture to see how the BOM goes hand in hand with the original Bible. So please, do not let those who only talk about the BOM discourage you, they are just one type of personality in the Church.

The Church is perfect, the members are not.

a-train, you made an excellent point that I didn't touch on.

There is no function, action, or procedure in the Church or of the priesthood that is not expressly designed by God to bring men to Christ and excommunication is no exception.

So true; excommunication is not a way of saying "we're through with you, go away", it is a chance for reflection on the seriousness of the transgression and repentance. Your explanation was excellent.

Brings up a question. What if somebody is excommunicated unjustly? I know of one particular instance that this happened and later (like 15 years later) the Bishop appologized to this person and she is now back in Church. I guess since she stopped going and did not continue to do the things she was supposed to do then she might need to reactivate but in God's eyes, was she really excommunicated? If that Bishop had not come clean and appologized, would he be held accountable? Sorry if I got off topic.

In my time with the Church I have know many great men called to serve as Bishops. However I have in the same time know a few who I could not speak as nice about also called. More of the better than the latter for sure.

[Outshined]

Brings up a question. What if somebody is excommunicated unjustly? I know of one particular instance that this happened and later (like 15 years later) the Bishop appologized to this person and she is now back in Church. I guess since she stopped going and did not continue to do the things she was supposed to do then she might need to reactivate but in God's eyes, was she really excommunicated? If that Bishop had not come clean and appologized, would he be held accountable?

I believe that the Bishop would absolutely be held accountable for knowingly having a person unjustly excommunicated. It's the same as if he committed adultery or murder and no one found out. He would still have to answer to God for his actions, and that person's fate would be on his head.

[CrimsonKairos]

The decision to excommunicate is not up to the bishop. So did this bishop lie to the stake president and accuse this sister of a sin she didn't commit? Did the sister fail to defend herself?

I just don't get how a bishop could push through an excommunication that the stake president and other authorities wouldn't realize was fake?

[Outshined]

I just don't get how a bishop could push through an excommunication that the stake president and other authorities wouldn't realize was fake?

I was wondering that myself; excommunication is not a one-man process...

[JcDean78]

Without going into too much detail there was an incident with two youths about 15 years ago. These two youths were excommunicated and for good reason. The Bishop then went on a witch hunt after the other youth and rumors flew about everyone as the gossip train got rolling.

Before it was all said and done, a ton of youth went totally innactive and some were excommunicated. The person that I know was accused of doing something that she did not do like some of the others. She refused to submit to the inqusition and left the Church. She was guilty by not fighting back and excommunicated based on the accusations of the Bishop.

Parents and other youth who did fight back, wrote letters to salt lake and the incident was investigated and the Bishop was replaced. It was not until years later that the Bishop ever appologized for all that happend and the many youth he drove away from the Church. The lady in question however is now going back to Church and regaining all she lost.

Outshined I am kind of surprised you do not know about this because it happend in TN but not in our stake. However there are many people here to know all about it.

[Outshined]

Outshined I am kind of surprised you do not know about this because it happend in TN but not in our stake. However there are many people here to know all about it.

Well, I've only lived in Tennessee since 1992, and in East Tennessee since 1998. Before that I was in Germany for several years. I've never heard it mentioned, but I guess it wouldn't be the most pleasant coversation material...

[Saab900man]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'> Remember the lds church practiced racism against blacks till 1978 by forbidding them certain postions, simply because of their skin color.

They also practiced polygamy till the goverment forced them to drop it. Lds claim to be the restored church of Jesus Christ, but do you really think that God would allow such practices or condone such behavior?

According to the Bible, yes.

Ah the typical lds spin- I would love to see you use the Bible to say------------UNTIL 1978 you may be racist, but then you must change after that -----------but lets not derail the thread and lets both help keep it on track---------someone here is seriously inquiring about the lds church

What about the ways Gentiles were viewed by Jews.

Or they way Jews views the Samaritains?

Did not the same type thing happen with this in the Bible?

[a-train]

OK, so imagine a person is excommunicated but they had not broken any covenants. Imagine that the Stake Presidency, Bishopric, and the involved High Priests excommunicated a worthy covenant keeping member. What happens?

Let's be very specific. Let's examine Helmuth Hübener.

For those that don't know, Helmuth Hübener was the youngest opponent of the Third Reich to be executed by Hitler's Courts. Born January 8th, 1925 in Hamburg, Germany, he was raised LDS by his mother and grandmother. He was taken from the Boy Scouts and introduced to Hitler Youth at a young age. He was repulsed by the hatred of Jews that became so increasingly open and universal throughout Germany that his own LDS meeting house felt compelled to add signage to the entrance barring Jews from any attendance.

At only 16 years of age, Hübener began illegally listening to foreign radio broadcasts and began circulating pamphlets with information about the war that was not made known to the general public by the Nazis. In February 1942, he was arrested by the Gestapo. He was beheaded for conspiracy to commit high treason at a prison in Berlin on October 27th that same year at the age of 17.

His youthful age would have typically made his trial much different and far more lenient even in the Nazi courts, but the courts found him to be so mature and his mind so developed that they felt his trial and treatment as an adult was justified. Two of his young LDS associates were sent to prison for their involvement in the resistance, they were eventually freed and both went to Salt Lake to live out the remainder of their lives.

In the midst of his arrest and trial, Hübener was excommunicated. It has been said that this was only done to keep the body of LDS members in Germany from being implicated or further persecuted by the Nazis. Sentiments among members were expressed that they were unhappy with Hübener's risky moves and that his acts were unthoughtful and endangered other members of the Church.

After the war, Church leaders in Salt Lake discovering the whole matter reinstated his membership.

So what then? Was he cut off from the gift of the Holy Ghost during his time in prison leading up to his execution? Did he wait those few years between his death and his reinstatement in spirit prison?

While I do not want to make any assumptions here, I can at least be sure that the LORD's authority beyond the veil is much higher than that held by any of the priesthood brethren in Germany. While the power both to bind and loose on earth and in heaven is in the priesthood held by those brethren, we cannot suppose that this power can function independent of the will and mind of God. I therefore have no fear that Helmuth Hübener endured any treatment through the workings of the priesthood of God that was anything but perfectly just and all of the injustice he bore was dealt by man's power, whose efficacy is void beyond the veil.

With this example in mind, I have little fear that I will one day be unjustly excommunicated. However, if through some extreme situation, as was Helmuth Hübener's, I am treated so, I have no fear that such a circumstance is only a temporary trial of life through which if I pass faithfully I will be rewarded as will be Helmuth Hübener who forsook all he had in the name of justice, in the name of truth, and in the name of God.

-a-train

[JcDean78]

A train great post man!

[Saab900man]

As in any issue, it is always a wise road to take in that you explore both sides of the coin to get a true and accurate assesment of things. I think that in your exploration of the lds church, that it would be a good idea to interact with some of the peoples who have found that the lds church -------is NOT what it calims to be.

Then and only then make up your mind on the validity of the truth and the history of the church.

Remember the lds church practiced racism against blacks till 1978 by forbidding them certain postions, simply because of their skin color.

They also practiced polygamy till the goverment forced them to drop it. Lds claim to be the restored church of Jesus Christ, but do you really think that God would allow such practices or condone such behavior?

Abraham, Issac, Solomon, and a few more all had wives not just a wife. We serve the same God that was then as was now. Just because people look badly on it now does not make it wrong in Gods eyes. Why would he make something ok then and not now? That would mean he is a changing God if he allowed it in the old test. times and thought it a sin now. If God allows it then it is ok. We as Latterday Saints are told by God to live by the laws of the land. So yes the Church changed when the government forced them to change it.

Take a good long look at their history from both sides. Read the JoD for thier real beliefs and practices.

The Journal of Discouses is not Church Doctrine. We don't know who wrote them down or if they are correct.

Yes on the outside the lds church is very attractive and looks good and does many many many wonderful

things----------but it is a far cry from the NT church that Christ is actually building on this earth.

But--------------don't take my word on it, investigate it for yourself and by coming here and approching the subject as you have, you are well on your way.

As a side note, I have grown up around lds all my life---have family all around me that are lds--So I have seen all side of this issue. I was a drug addict for 17 years. when i got to the end of my rope I called upon Jesus and he came and set me free--------in just one moment. I was completly deliver and changed. Was my lds family happy for me----------NO the rejected me as I did not join the lds church. Oh I investigated and found my answer-------------- you will find your answer to and when you do, stick with it and give it all you got. r

Remember the Holy Spirit was given to lead you into ALL TRUTH and he won't dissapoint anyone searching in faith and honesty

[Outshined]

B) I really enjoy your posts, a-train...

[CrimsonKairos]

She refused to submit to the inqusition and left the Church.

I won't pretend to know of the stress and pressure that may or may not have come to bear on this young woman.

Leaving the Church because of being accused and questioned seems premature and unwise.

I'm glad she's back in the fold.

[JcDean78]

<div class='quotemain'>

She refused to submit to the inqusition and left the Church.

I won't pretend to know of the stress and pressure that may or may not have come to bear on this young woman.

Leaving the Church because of being accused and questioned seems premature and unwise.

I'm glad she's back in the fold.

Me too. I think her issue at the time was that she was young and felt insulted with her pride and reputation having been hurt. I can only imagin how hard that must have been.

The blessing in all of it was the Bishop that the area had up until recently (he moved away) was a VERY humble and caring man. He was able to reach out to her and some others who needed to come back in the fold. The fact that she had matured over the years and now had a family of her own made the world of difference. She is coming back slowly, but she is coming back. She does KNOW the Church is true and she could not deny that even if she had a major problem with some of those in it who had wronged her. This Bishop was able to really connect with her and help guide her back.

As I always say, the Church is perfect, we members are not.

[Outshined]

See; one good Bishop can really make a difference.

Ours is great, too. :)