Freaked Out

[Aphrodite]

ok, I've just read wileys post and visited the site _____________ out of curiosity and read a couple of the topics. The reason I came to this site in the first place was to resolve some issues I had and still do have with the temple. Although many people on this site have been a great help to me and I have been trying to work through my issues, albeit very slowly. Anyway, what someone said was that the temple endowment ceremony has changed since before 1990-there were...death rituals?????? What the hell? Thats really scared me now. Can anyone explain? Plus that same person posted a quote from one of the prophets saying the temple ordinances cannot be changed. (this was from before they were changed) So why were they then? The word of the prophets is either true or it isnt. Was he lying? Does that mean the church isnt true??!!! This has really set me back. I was reading that post and my heart was actually thumping because the whole idea of that seems so sick and wrong and.....well evil. I refuse to accept it until someone on here who has been to the temple when these supposed rituals were in force tells me otherwise. Please someone enlighten me this is really freaking me out. I wish I'd never read it.

Edited by Strawberry Fields :We are going to do our best to keep the names of these sites off of LDS Talk.

[Outshined]

Some reading on the matter:

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/Can_...nies_Change.pdf

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_masons.shtml#misc

[Gwen]

ok, I've just read wileys post and visited the site _______________ out of curiosity and read a couple of the topics. The reason I came to this site in the first place was to resolve some issues I had and still do have with the temple. Although many people on this site have been a great help to me and I have been trying to work through my issues, albeit very slowly. Anyway, what someone said was that the temple endowment ceremony has changed since before 1990-there were...death rituals?????? What the hell? Thats really scared me now. Can anyone explain? Plus that same person posted a quote from one of the prophets saying the temple ordinances cannot be changed. (this was from before they were changed) So why were they then? The word of the prophets is either true or it isnt. Was he lying? Does that mean the church isnt true??!!! This has really set me back. I was reading that post and my heart was actually thumping because the whole idea of that seems so sick and wrong and.....well evil. I refuse to accept it until someone on here who has been to the temple when these supposed rituals were in force tells me otherwise. Please someone enlighten me this is really freaking me out. I wish I'd never read it.

if you know someones purpose is to change your beliefs then you are right, do not entertain them to begin with. i am by no means saying don't converse or learn of different beliefs or investagate. but the spirit of it, if you are sharing personal convictions (which i feel gets done here a lot) is different than "i'm gonna change your mind, or save your soul". i've had conversations with both attitudes, very different spirit present. i do not give credance to anyone who is trying "to save my soul" it needs no saving. i love to hear of others beliefs. (where i believe many young missionaries mess up, the spirit of what you say; but that's another topic)

i think someone here commented in another topic already that they had attended at that time and there were no such blood othes.

as far as "change" goes.....we must define the word. we are told god is the same yesterday today and forever. off the top of my head i know of no christian religion that practices the sacrafice of animals. yet there can be no mistaking that it was the practice of the scriptures. so do no christians "worship the god of the bible"? look at the underlying doctrine, what is the reason or purpose behind the things we are asked to do, has that changed? maybe how we show it, or what we've been asked to do to follow it has changed but the doctrine, the principles, those have not changed. (i'm not speaking of the temple here just change in general). the world changes with every generation, the lord makes statments on this (does not mean he has changed his doctrines but mearly how he presents them). he will "speak our language", many points in the parables in the scriptures are missed by ppl reading today, we aren't sheep hearders or fisher men and such, we don't understand all the intricasies involved. part of the importance of a living prophet. someone who speaks the language today. look at the for streangth of youth, i used to have a lot less about sex and earings (if anything at all), i recall reading one that had a section with the main focus being that women shouldn't wear mens clothing. in the current one there is nothing of the sort, there are comments on earings and other peircings, and a whole lot more on sex (my opinion it needs to be changed even more to become more clear, no doubt as to the standard for kids today, but anyway). did the rules for the youth "change". i don't think so. the concerns and issues of the youth changed. i don't think there were any changes concerning the underlying doctrines behind what standard is tought, but that it is updated to address the concerns of the youth today. what good is a list of rules that have nothing to do with our day? same idea with all the statments of internet porn (or any porn for that matter). off the top of my head (i'm sure someone will correct me lol) i can't recall any scriptures in the bible specifically saying "porn is bad". if you are reading with spiritual ears you will see the doctrines behind the black and white words that will tell you that, but the words themselves are not there. internet porn wasn't an issue in jesus' day, why would he comment on it? again need for a latterday prophet. he can address the issues of today. we have very firm, no doubt about it statments on internet porn (again porn of any kind). has the command of god changed???? no!!!! the principal of the doctrine is the same, how it is presented and worded has changed to accomidate and assure comprehension of the ppl today. so do teaching methods, wording, aesthetics change? of course, the world changes. have the doctrines, the principles, the truths of god or god himself changed? no! god is unchanging not outdated. he will care for his children of all dispensations.

[sixpacktr]

1). There are no, and have never been any, blood oaths in the temple. This is a favorite ploy of the antis to immediately cast us in the worst possible light, a "Jim Jones" kind of cult. This has been twisted. I went thru the temple when those particular things were happening. The intention was that you would not reveal the sacred things taught to you EVEN IF you were tortured in a cruel manner because these were sacred. It was never, in any way, "if you tell, we'll do this to you!!"

Aphrodite,

I posted this on another thread. I hope this helps.

All I can say is to avoid those sites. I believe they are truly evil, there is a bad spirit there.

[CrimsonKairos]

Aphrodite, the temple ceremony has been changing since Joseph Smith first received revelations on it.

The Lord teaches us line upon line, precept upon precept.

Modern revelation means just that: revelations relevant to our specific time on earth.

The only things that will never change in eternity is that God loves us, and Christ is our Savior.

Everything else is negotiable. :)

[wiley]

Hey Aphrodite,

Is there a SMILEY for a big "OOPS". This one will do. My apologize for causing this turmoil. I should have been more careful.

I believe the person who quoted JS as saying temple ordinances could not be changed was from Skeptic. This is what he said:

Sacred ordinances and the divine authority to administer them did not begin with the Restoration of the gospel and the founding of the modern Church in 1830. The sacred ordinances of the gospel as requirements for salvation and exaltation were "instituted from before the foundation of the world." They have always been an immutable part of the gospel. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: "Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles

JS is talking about ordinances which includes not only the temple ordinances, but such things like baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, sacrament, etc. He was not referring specifically to the temple.

I should note that Skeptic has become a friend of mine. That is not to say that I agree with many of the things he says. But he supported me during icy times with the group, and we have had good discussions. He has even taught me a thing or two, both about church history (specifically when related to BY) and how to be a good "Christian". He really is a good guy. I should also mention his wife is an active member of the church who loves him dearly.

Actually I don't agree with most of the comments made there. But I go there to help me better understand how I should be towards those who have left the church. This is most significant to me in how I treat members of my family. That is not to say that I don't love them, but I have come to understand that maybe I don't treat them with the same amount to respect I should. It is a lesson I need to learn.

Many there are good people. But they do like to vent their fustrations and angers. I would NOT consider them anti-, even though sometimes the things they say can border the anti- level. They have gained respect from many church groups including and article done in the Deseret News.

http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660221881,00.html

I would say that much of their frustrations and need for support come because they struggle with family members who are active LDS. This can be very painful as some well know.

I would recommend to any who venture there to keep in mind that while they do welcome LDS members to post, there main priority to help people transition from being an LDS member to a happy productive member of society. It is not really a place to go and debate doctrine or make them feel like they are in the wrong. There are many there who would like to build bridges with active LDS members, but there first priority is to help those leaving the church feel safe and provide a support group. For the most part, they are NOT interested in getting people to leave the church.

Back to the temple though...

I don't know if you are at a point in your life where you are able to go to the temple, but if you are, you can ask all these questions there. I believe each temple has a room that resembles the sacrament room of a church where you can discuss these things freely. And I believe the temple workers would be more than willing to answer questions. You don't even have to go there to do a ceremony. You can go just to talk.

Yes, there were minor changes in the temple endowments. These changes occurred in 1990 I believe, but also in the 1920's as well. BUT, none of these changes as far as I know had anything to do with the actual ordinances. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. In this, I have to disagree with C_K. The ordinances themselves have never changed. As a case in point, a big part of the endowment includes a video. This was not always the case. This is a change, but not significant to the ordinance itself. I believe even recently that the initiatory has changed a bit. The ordinance is the same, but I think it was changed as a matter of comfort to the person going through the ordinance. Someone can correct me on any of this if I'm wrong.

The real issue is that those who criticize the temple ordinances as such are taking something that isn't relative and making a bigger issue out of what it really is. When you figure out the truth, I think you will have one of those, "Why were they making such a big fuss over this?", kind of moments. But that is just my opinion.

But again, sorry for creating the turmoil. I hope you will forgive.

[sharrard_family]

Wiley I have to agree with you. I however can't offer much help; only that we should NOT discuss ordinances that occur in the temple outside of the temple. Those disccussion are to be in the temple. I will however say that when my husband and I first went through it was so peaceful. Aphrodite if you aren't positve you can alwasy ask your local Bishop to let you sit through a temple prep class if you are ready and that will help clear up some of your jitters. :)

[CrimsonKairos]

Yes, there were minor changes in the temple endowments...I have to disagree with C_K. The ordinances themselves have never changed.

The difference is semantic, wiley. First you say yes there were minor changes to the temple endowments, which is exactly what I said word for word, i.e. "Aphrodite, the temple ceremony has been changing since Joseph Smith first received revelations on it."

We no longer have the lecture at the veil. Does that change the blessings and purpose of the endowment? Of course not. My point was that words can change, the order of when we do things can change, the video can change, but no, the reason we have the endowment will not change (e.g. to receive light and power from on high).

That's what I meant when I said that everything else is negotiable. Of course, the "eternal covenant" of Judaism changed with the coming of Jesus, i.e. Israel no longer had to go to Jerusalem twice a year, no longer had to observe the feast days, nor offer animal sacrifice, nor wear phylacteries, etc... Of course, this change was prophesied of, and we know of no other dramatic change of that nature coming up in our day.

Still, if it did, it wouldn't shake my faith. I don't worship the ordinances or the wording of the ordinances. I worship God in any way He instructs me to. :)

When you figure out the truth, I think you will have one of those, "Why were they making such a big fuss over this?", kind of moments.

Precisely.

[wiley]

<div class='quotemain'>

Yes, there were minor changes in the temple endowments...I have to disagree with C_K. The ordinances themselves have never changed.

The difference is semantic, wiley. First you say yes there were minor changes to the temple endowments, which is exactly what I said word for word, i.e. "Aphrodite, the temple ceremony has been changing since Joseph Smith first received revelations on it."

We no longer have the lecture at the veil. Does that change the blessings and purpose of the endowment? Of course not. My point was that words can change, the order of when we do things can change, the video can change, but no, the reason we have the endowment will not change (e.g. to receive light and power from on high).

That's what I meant when I said that everything else is negotiable. Of course, the "eternal covenant" of Judaism changed with the coming of Jesus, i.e. Israel no longer had to go to Jerusalem twice a year, no longer had to observe the feast days, nor offer animal sacrifice, nor wear phylacteries, etc... Of course, this change was prophesied of, and we know of no other dramatic change of that nature coming up in our day.

Still, if it did, it wouldn't shake my faith. I don't worship the ordinances or the wording of the ordinances. I worship God in any way He instructs me to. :)

When you figure out the truth, I think you will have one of those, "Why were they making such a big fuss over this?", kind of moments.

Precisely.

Ok. Then I change my mind. I am in agreement with C_K.

[a-train]

In my youth I read every anti-mormon thing I came across; all the popular books, old books, all kinds of stuff. I started checking references and reading things in their full context. I found that the vast majority of anti-mormon material was nothing more than taking statements out of context and misrepresenting both the Church and the Bible.

You know what all that accomplished? It made me realize that if I was doing my scripture study and praying and getting answers, I would know far more than anything I ever learned through sifting through the anti junk and trying to answer every question the antis brought.

There is no end to anti. It will go on like the energizer bunny and then some. I eventually got to the point that I wasn't worried about it at all anymore. If I hear some anti statement that I have no perfect answer for, I simply rest assured there is one and I will eventually have it. But honestly, I rarely need to rely on that. Usually I can rely on my knowledge of the scriptures and the Holy Ghost which provides me with a proper understanding of the folly in the antis.

Imagine those pressing forward down the path to the tree of life, holding fast to the iron rod. Do they have any need to stop and examine every detail of the mists of darkness to know that it IS darkness and that only the rod follows the path? Do they need to go over and measure the great and spacious building to know it will fall with a great fall? The iron rod tells them that.

Do I need to know what accusations, questions, or arguements are being raised by the antis to know they are full of bull? No, the Iron rod which is the word of God will tell me that.

Try this: Go to the scriptures and study and pray. Eliminate all unrighteousness and repent with all your heart. Try God. See if He will answer your questions. Don't even tell them to anyone. Specifically ask Him your questions and see if God will answer. Understand also, that you may not be ready for the answer. What do I mean? You may need to learn some more elementary principles before you can understand the answers to your questions.

In binary, 11 = three, not eleven. 'What? That's ridiculous!' one might say. When they have learned the principles of binary this will be no big deal, but until they do, it will not make any sense.

So, pay attention to what you ARE learning, not what you are NOT YET learning. Only through that will you get the knowledge you need to ultimately arrive at the answers to your questions. Be happy with saying to yourself: 'I don't know yet.' Once you are comfortable with that, you'll start really learning.

A man must learn to get knowledge directly from God or he can never be saved. Personal revelation is essential. Go to the LORD and study the temple with Him. Ask Him your questions and read the scriptures and the writings of the prophets and apostles. God will answer you as soon as you can understand the answer. When He does, you will have a far stronger understanding and faith than you would have obtained through answers from another man.

-a-train

[CrimsonKairos]

Reminds me of a Hebrew proverb:

Teach thy tongue to say, "I do not know."

a-train's advice is spot on.