Spirit, Life and Dark Energy

[dirtydevil]

I hardly know anything about quantum physics, but I have a hypothesis about energy, spirit matter and the such. I see all of the detectible "matter" aka "energy" actually existing as bubbles within an omnipresent substrate (maybe dark energy?) These bubbles may be what we know as basic quantum particles. They have surface tension, can spin at different rates affecting their charge and the way they interact, and there may exist different kinds of bubbles with varying degrees of false vacuums like anti-bubbles (think oil drops in water that are surrounded by air as a model). Their movement and the way they interact with each other is what we know as energy. These interacting bubbles make up the universe or universes. Each universe in the shape of a torus which constantly recycles itself. The "material" eminates as shockwaves from its central apex, and expands outward in a spiral fashion on the surface of the torus. At the present time, we are being being expelled toward the top of this donut shaped torus, which is why the universe appears to be expanding exponentially faster. Eventually we may take our course around the surface of our torus universe and be recycled back into the inner apex. The apex may be where the "Big Bang" pulsations regularly occur. The omnipresent substrate in which our universe resides in, and which resides in our universe, could be considered "god" or "spirit" from a panentheistic viewpoint. Maybe it is its own mind somehow, and set the laws that govern everything within its essence. When one pushes against its laws they might become "out of tune", experiance entropy, and suffer until their efforts are eventually weakened and overcome in the distant future.

some links to a few things in my hypothesis:

Doughnut theory of the universe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

False vacuum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=torus%20universe&sm=3

Quantum foam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

unification, spacetime foam, quantum vacuum, quantum fluctuations

Edited March 13, 2014 by Scotch

[Seminarysnoozer]

Yes I think his statement that they "never fall spiritually" is incorrect. I believe that they are subject to the fall and spiritual death being separated from the Father. I also believe that the fall does very much attach to them but that they are redeemed by the atonement of Christ - without which they would remain spiritually corruped -- or in other words spiritually dead.

Perhaps that is the point in which we differ - I believe to be spiritual dead is a spiritually corrupted state.

The Traveler

Yes, this is where you and I disagree. Spiritual death is not synonymous with spiritual corruption or spiritually fallen and also is not the same as being "spiritually dead". Let me try to be a little more clear, spiritual death is not the same thing as being spiritually dead.

How is that possible? It is through Christ, the light of Christ. We separate from God, spiritual death, but never die spiritually because we have a life line, the light of Christ. Unless one willfully ignores the light of Christ they are still alive spiritually. We die spiritually by being separated from God but children receive a special protection remaining pure and spiritually alive before the age of accountability as well as being born with the light of Christ. In other words, we are all kept alive by the the light of Christ. If the light of Christ is completely gone then a person is spiritually dead. D&C 88; " 13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things."

D&C 88; " 18 Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory;

19 For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;

20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified.

21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.

22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory."

If you look at the footnote for "unrighteousness" in verse 18 it takes you to; Moses 8; "28 The earth was corrupt before God, and it was filled with violence.

29 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its way upon the earth.

30 And God said unto Noah: The end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence, and behold I will destroy all flesh from off the earth."

The sanctification of the corrupted body is through resurrection, which Christ most certainly did. It is available by obeying the law of Christ, which also Christ did, He was baptized etc. for a reason.

By the spirit we are justified and by the blood we are sanctified. Sanctification refers to the process of the body becoming pure and putting off its fleshy corruption. Moses 6; " 59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;"

In that way, everyone who takes on a mortal body needs sanctification. Spiritual sanctification refers to being made clean from sin through the process of repentance. Again, children don't experience sin and therefore there is no need for spiritual sanctification. Are children sanctified through the atonement of Christ? Yes, because their corrupted bodies become clean resurrected bodies through the blood of Christ and being already justified by the spirit they remain born of the spirit - never separating from the light of Christ, not needing baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

---

2 Nephi : " 11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility."

There are two opposing bodies, the physical body (the natural man) and the spirit body (our spirit that starts with the light of Christ) while in this life.

If the spirit is corrupted and the body is corrupted then there is no life as it is if they are one, they are dead. There is opposition in all things while in this world and the opposition to our spiritual purity in which we enter this world can affect our spiritual well being when made accountable at the age of accountability. If the spirit gives into the physical drives we can become spiritually dead.

[Traveler]

Yes, this is where you and I disagree. Spiritual death is not synonymous with spiritual corruption or spiritually fallen and also is not the same as being "spiritually dead". Let me try to be a little more clear, spiritual death is not the same thing as being spiritually dead.

How is that possible? It is through Christ, the light of Christ. We separate from God, spiritual death, but never die spiritually because we have a life line, the light of Christ. Unless one willfully ignores the light of Christ they are still alive spiritually. We die spiritually by being separated from God but children receive a special protection remaining pure and spiritually alive before the age of accountability as well as being born with the light of Christ. In other words, we are all kept alive by the the light of Christ. If the light of Christ is completely gone then a person is spiritually dead. D&C 88; " 13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things."

D&C 88; " 18 Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory;

19 For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;

20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified.

21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.

22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory."

If you look at the footnote for "unrighteousness" in verse 18 it takes you to; Moses 8; "28 The earth was corrupt before God, and it was filled with violence.

29 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its way upon the earth.

30 And God said unto Noah: The end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence, and behold I will destroy all flesh from off the earth."

The sanctification of the corrupted body is through resurrection, which Christ most certainly did. It is available by obeying the law of Christ, which also Christ did, He was baptized etc. for a reason.

By the spirit we are justified and by the blood we are sanctified. Sanctification refers to the process of the body becoming pure and putting off its fleshy corruption. Moses 6; " 59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;"

In that way, everyone who takes on a mortal body needs sanctification. Spiritual sanctification refers to being made clean from sin through the process of repentance. Again, children don't experience sin and therefore there is no need for spiritual sanctification. Are children sanctified through the atonement of Christ? Yes, because their corrupted bodies become clean resurrected bodies through the blood of Christ and being already justified by the spirit they remain born of the spirit - never separating from the light of Christ, not needing baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost.

---

2 Nephi : " 11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility."

There are two opposing bodies, the physical body (the natural man) and the spirit body (our spirit that starts with the light of Christ) while in this life.

If the spirit is corrupted and the body is corrupted then there is no life as it is if they are one, they are dead. There is opposition in all things while in this world and the opposition to our spiritual purity in which we enter this world can affect our spiritual well being when made accountable at the age of accountability. If the spirit gives into the physical drives we can become spiritually dead.

Are you saying there are no spiritual consequences (disabilities) because of the fall - that all consequences of the fall are essentially physical - if not directly, indirectly?

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Are you saying there are no spiritual consequences (disabilities) because of the fall - that all consequences of the fall are essentially physical - if not directly, indirectly?

The Traveler

You are probably going to have to explain what you mean by direct and indirect. I am assuming you are meaning immediate and in-the-end.

In the immediate sense yes, I believe in the second article of faith. We all enter this life spiritually pure. The spiritual consequences are secondary to our own sins and not from Adams transgression. It is only after the age of accountability is reached that there are spiritual consequences. And everyone who reaches the age of accountability sins. Sinning is, by definition, taking on carnal traits. As we give into carnal passions they can become spiritual desires. Or, they can remain separate. I cannot get rid of my carnal passions while in this life. I can endure them and try to overcome them with Christ's help and the direction of the Holy Ghost. Ultimately they are insurmountable by our spirits alone and so we need a way to be redeemed, through the process of repentance. Children, who never are given the chance to choose between carnal passions and spiritual ones also never have a chance to take on carnal passions, they remain with the body that turns to dust and will be raised incorruptible with resurrection.

D&C 18: " 42 For all men must repent and be baptized, and not only men, but women, and children who have arrived at the years of accountability."

Boyd K Packer; "Two doctrines misrepresent the status of little children. Each is widely accepted. Both are false!

The first holds that little children are conceived in sin and enter mortality in a state of natural corruption. That doctrine is false!

Each time a child is born, the world is renewed in innocence.

The revelations teach us that “the glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.

“Light and truth forsake that evil one.

“Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God."

Merlin Lybbert General Conference April 1994 "The Special Status of Children"; "The Lord extends special protection to children and shares jurisdiction with earthly parents, even as we enjoy their presence. They cannot sin until they reach the age of accountability, which the Lord has declared to be eight years (see D&C 18:42; D&C 29:47). In fact, the power to even tempt them to commit sin has been taken from Satan. The prophet Mormon taught that “little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin. …

“Little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!” (Moro. 8:8, 12.) ... Because all children who die before the age of accountability are pure, innocent, and wholly sin-free, they are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven (see D&C 137:10; Mosiah 3:18). Understanding the special status of little children before God, because of their pure and innocent nature, brings understanding of the Lord’s commandment to “repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in [His] name” (3 Ne. 11:37). The childlike qualities the Lord had reference to are developed by yielding to “the enticings of the Holy Spirit,” so as to become “submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.” Truly, such a person “becometh a saint” as spoken by Mosiah (Mosiah 3:19)."

Where the spirit goes after death, either paradise or spirit prison depicts how the spirit was affected by this world. Children go to paradise, remaining in their pure and innocent nature as adult spirits. So, what do you think is the consequence of the Fall to those spirits?

Don't you believe in the second article of faith?

[Traveler]

I hardly know anything about quantum physics, but I have a hypothesis about energy, spirit matter and the such. I see all of the detectible "matter" aka "energy" actually existing as bubbles within an omnipresent substrate (maybe dark energy?) These bubbles may be what we know as basic quantum particles. They have surface tension, can spin at different rates affecting their charge and the way they interact, and there may exist different kinds of bubbles with varying degrees of false vacuums like anti-bubbles (think oil drops in water that are surrounded by air as a model). Their movement and the way they interact with each other is what we know as energy. These interacting bubbles make up the universe or universes. Each universe in the shape of a torus which constantly recycles itself. The "material" eminates as shockwaves from its central apex, and expands outward in a spiral fashion on the surface of the torus. At the present time, we are being being expelled toward the top of this donut shaped torus, which is why the universe appears to be expanding exponentially faster. Eventually we may take our course around the surface of our torus universe and be recycled back into the inner apex. The apex may be where the "Big Bang" pulsations regularly occur. The omnipresent substrate in which our universe resides in, and which resides in our universe, could be considered "god" or "spirit" from a panentheistic viewpoint. Maybe it is its own mind somehow, and set the laws that govern everything within its essence. When one pushes against its laws they might become "out of tune", experiance entropy, and suffer until their efforts are eventually weakened and overcome in the distant future.

some links to a few things in my hypothesis:

Doughnut theory of the universe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

False vacuum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=torus%20universe&sm=3

Quantum foam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

unification, spacetime foam, quantum vacuum, quantum fluctuations

Thank you for your post - it leaves food for thought.

I think there is one glaring problem with the Doughnut Theory - That is the theory that the universe is isotropic or that the principles of physics that apply somewhere are uniform and apply everywhere. If the universe was once a small doughnut then if the expansion that has that has taken place for 14 billion years is isotropic - the universal doughnut shape would fold over on itself and eventually resemble a sphere - thus the 4 dimensional sphere theory.

But if anyone is interested I believe that the pursuit of dark energy is a step towards proving intelligence at operation in variations of density defining the structure of our universe. This is based on recent developments in defining intelligent response with research of intelligence in slime mold in concert with developments of what is now being called the Hive Mind.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Thank you for your post - it leaves food for thought.

I think there is one glaring problem with the Doughnut Theory - That is the theory that the universe is isotropic or that the principles of physics that apply somewhere are uniform and apply everywhere. If the universe was once a small doughnut then if the expansion that has that has taken place for 14 billion years is isotropic - the universal doughnut shape would fold over on itself and eventually resemble a sphere - thus the 4 dimensional sphere theory.

But if anyone is interested I believe that the pursuit of dark energy is a step towards proving intelligence at operation in variations of density defining the structure of our universe. This is based on recent developments in defining intelligent response with research of intelligence in slime mold in concert with developments of what is now being called the Hive Mind.

The Traveler

More likely, Isaiah speaks closer to the truth; Isaiah 65" 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

Everything will change with the millenium including the heavens and all this speculation about forces we now observe will not be remembered or come to mind. Why? Because this world and the universe we see was only intended to be a temporary habitat in its current form. What is made from dust will return to dust.

We are told the heavens and Earth will be like the old but it is changed and how and to what degree we don't know. Ether; " 9 And there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and they shall be like unto the old save the old have passed away, and all things have become new." The change is probably equal in magnitude to the distance of the Fall from Paradise, whatever amount that is. I suspect the Fall was a long distance.

One thing we don know though is that we have not seen the way the Earth and the Heavens will be transfigured, i.e. - science cannot see it. The apostles have but not science - 3 Nephi; " 21 When the earth shall be transfigured, even according to the pattern which was shown unto mine apostles upon the mount; of which account the fulness ye have not yet received."

So, all of this talk is about things that are temporary in nature, we do not have access to see the eternal nature, unless one is an apostle and shown these things. To see those things, the apostles had to be transfigured, "upon the mount".

[Traveler]

More likely, Isaiah speaks closer to the truth; Isaiah 65" 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

Everything will change with the millenium including the heavens and all this speculation about forces we now observe will not be remembered or come to mind. Why? Because this world and the universe we see was only intended to be a temporary habitat in its current form. What is made from dust will return to dust.

We are told the heavens and Earth will be like the old but it is changed and how and to what degree we don't know. Ether; " 9 And there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and they shall be like unto the old save the old have passed away, and all things have become new." The change is probably equal in magnitude to the distance of the Fall from Paradise, whatever amount that is. I suspect the Fall was a long distance.

One thing we don know though is that we have not seen the way the Earth and the Heavens will be transfigured, i.e. - science cannot see it. The apostles have but not science - 3 Nephi; " 21 When the earth shall be transfigured, even according to the pattern which was shown unto mine apostles upon the mount; of which account the fulness ye have not yet received."

So, all of this talk is about things that are temporary in nature, we do not have access to see the eternal nature, unless one is an apostle and shown these things. To see those things, the apostles had to be transfigured, "upon the mount".

Isaiah offers a most interesting view into eternity (see Isaiah 46:10). I am not sure but I think I see some things different than you. I believe that the things that are true are isotropic. They are true now and they will be true tomorrow. Thus I believe that we build on truth line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept – another teaching from Isaiah.

I believe we live in an era of restoration. I believe this is necessary to prepare for the transfiguration of earth. Thus it seems to me that as we observe all things of G-d’s creation that trends are more important than abrupt change. Or to realize that the way of G-d is not a sudden one and done change but a path or journey to be traveled. I believe G-d gives many opportunities and witnesses to his truths.

One final idea from Isaiah – that is that the restoration will not be just from prophets on mountains but also many things will come through the gentiles – which will play a most important role in assisting the saints in the restoration of divine things to prepare for the Christ.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Isaiah offers a most interesting view into eternity (see Isaiah 46:10). I am not sure but I think I see some things different than you. I believe that the things that are true are isotropic. They are true now and they will be true tomorrow. Thus I believe that we build on truth line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept – another teaching from Isaiah.

The Traveler

I also believe that things that are true are isotropic but this requires both a definition of truth and what is meant by isotropic. I would suggest to you that our view cannot be isotropic from our current standpoint, it is very myopic. How can we talk about things that meet the criteria of being isotropic when our view is very limited? Take Moses description of our view, that man is nothing. What you are talking about when you speak of being isotropic is having "Eternal perspective". I would suggest that one cannot have true "Eternal Perspective" with the veil in place.

As Elder Nelson stated in general conference; "Eternal perspective provides peace “which passeth all understanding.” (Philip. 4:7.)" Right now we don't have eternal perspective and at best it is simply a feeling of peace because it 'passes all understanding'. It would be like trying to explain an action potential to an ancient Egyptian healer, without providing any other instruction about neuroanatomy and electrolytes. The discussion would be misinterpreted and couched into the person's current level of understanding. If one said, 'currents travel down axons by way of rapidly rising and falling electrical potentials' to an ancient scientist it might be interpreted as some external force causing waves of stimulation or simply not understood at all.

I guess what I am trying to say is that having a limited view can distort what is true, like the blind man touching only a part of the elephant and saying it is like a snake or it is wet like a fish. With such a limited view there are misinterpretations of the information. Knowing that, what should happen is to say, 'I don't have enough information yet, therefore I cannot even begin to ponder the significance of these findings as I might place a false interpretation on them'.

One day our view will stop being myopic and our understanding of the expanse of God will return as it was before the veil was placed and all of our "blind man" interpretations of these things will seem really silly to us.

[Traveler]

I also believe that things that are true are isotropic but this requires both a definition of truth and what is meant by isotropic. I would suggest to you that our view cannot be isotropic from our current standpoint, it is very myopic. How can we talk about things that meet the criteria of being isotropic when our view is very limited? Take Moses description of our view, that man is nothing. What you are talking about when you speak of being isotropic is having "Eternal perspective". I would suggest that one cannot have true "Eternal Perspective" with the veil in place.

As Elder Nelson stated in general conference; "Eternal perspective provides peace “which passeth all understanding.” (Philip. 4:7.)" Right now we don't have eternal perspective and at best it is simply a feeling of peace because it 'passes all understanding'. It would be like trying to explain an action potential to an ancient Egyptian healer, without providing any other instruction about neuroanatomy and electrolytes. The discussion would be misinterpreted and couched into the person's current level of understanding. If one said, 'currents travel down axons by way of rapidly rising and falling electrical potentials' to an ancient scientist it might be interpreted as some external force causing waves of stimulation or simply not understood at all.

I guess what I am trying to say is that having a limited view can distort what is true, like the blind man touching only a part of the elephant and saying it is like a snake or it is wet like a fish. With such a limited view there are misinterpretations of the information. Knowing that, what should happen is to say, 'I don't have enough information yet, therefore I cannot even begin to ponder the significance of these findings as I might place a false interpretation on them'.

One day our view will stop being myopic and our understanding of the expanse of God will return as it was before the veil was placed and all of our "blind man" interpretations of these things will seem really silly to us.

Consider the possibility that the "one day" of which you speak is today and that the end of myopic understanding is not a single event but a process that will continue from now to forever. :)

Join me in announcing this "good news" (gospel) that we live in a day and age of unprecedented enlightenment (See D&C 121:26-31 I find the phrase "nothing shall be withheld" in verse 28 to be very interesting).

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Consider the possibility that the "one day" of which you speak is today and that the end of myopic understanding is not a single event but a process that will continue from now to forever. :)

Join me in announcing this "good news" (gospel) that we live in a day and age of unprecedented enlightenment (See D&C 121:26-31 I find the phrase "nothing shall be withheld" in verse 28 to be very interesting).

The Traveler

Yes, it says in verse 27 that that is a time in which the person will receive the fullness of their glory. In other words, upon resurrection and assignment to a Kingdom. In verse 29 it talks about this being the reward for those who have endured valiantly during this life as a part of their reward.

Verse 32 explains clearly that this is what happens in the end; " 32 According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest."

Myopic understanding is being under the veil. When Moses saw all and then came back to this existence, how much did he retain? When Joseph Smith was enlightened and translated sections of the Book of Mormon then those sections were lost, how much did he retain so as to just repeat what was translated?

We are not capable of understanding all in this life, a perfected body is required to understand all. All that our spirit could learn until we could learn no more was done before we came here. If there is such an important concept of "dark energy" then we would have learned all about it, more than any scientist could ever learn before coming here. As soon as we are done with the second estate test, all that knowledge will come flooding back into our mind. You are right, it wasn't a single event, but the line upon line of learning of facts and secular knowledge has already taken place for every one of us. We are here to learn to do, to obey by faith according to the flesh and to endure. The only things we didn't learn before were the things that could only be learned "according to the flesh". There is not one piece of secular knowledge that you could tell me about that I didn't already know before coming here. All forms of mater, the physics of the universe, physical science, etc. every man and woman learned it all before coming here! It is not news, it will be recall, not something new to us.