Intro & Question

[Faerie]

That's not what they were discussing, they were discussing sealing of DEAD women...

No, I'm not a convert...I'm 5th generation LDS...however, I was apostate for 3 years...so in a way, I AM a convert, because I had to be converted all over again when my husband investigated the church...

Bringing back polygamy onto the earth as it is would be a huge trial of faith for me and for a huuuuge number of other LDS women. I've never met a LDS woman who was doing backflips over anticipation of sharing her husband w/ another woman...lol...

But then again, even when the church practicied polygamy, it wasn't something that EVERY man participated in...

I would hope that God would soften our hearts and our understanding before He would ever ask us to make such a huge committment...

But yeah, if I could have another wife around the house to clean, and another one to cook, and I get to be the one playing with the babies..it might work out...ROFL

[Guest Starsky]

You know the main purpose of the gospel is to bring us to the point of a total 'selfless' state of being....I see polygamy as being a possible avenue to that end.

But there are others...

There is a statement in the teachings of the early leaders which states that those who will live in Zion will have to be able to live the United Order and Polygamy....

Both of those things requires a 'selfless' state of being....IOW perfectness/charity.

1Cor. 13

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth:

[shanstress70]

So you see women who have a problem with polygamy as being selfish?

I don't understand how those verses relate to the subject at hand.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Mar 25 2004, 08:26 PM

So you see women who have a problem with polygamy as being selfish?

I don't understand how those verses relate to the subject at hand.

Yes.

It is a concept of Spiritual maturity. Polygamy can be endured sure, but totally embrased without selfish motivation (like having other women to help with the house, kids...etc... (I know you were kidding btw) requires an enlargement of the heart through charity.

[shanstress70]

I totally disagree... I'm spiritually immature, as well as selfish, because I don't want to practice such a thing? If that is true, then only you and maybe 1% of Mormon women are selfless and spiritually mature. I understand you beliefs, and respect them. I also appreciate your taking the time to respond to my question. But you should know that comes across as quite condescending.

1Cor. 13

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth:

And, again, how were those verses relevant to polygamy?

[porterrockwell]

One thing you have to remember is that our temporal comprehension is subject to emotions and desires(some anyway) that are not Godly. We are here to concquer that which will not bring us Eternal Life. We do not know the feeling of being on the other side of the vail and being able to comprehend all in a perfect light. I personally as a male am not down with the whole polygamy thing. I only want one lady. But God may have different plans. If we believe that God has the answers and loves us, then questioning what he has laid before us only delays our ability to know him better. One thing also to note is that Polygamy in this day and age has created a horribly messed up power control issue. Fathers of Polygamous(is that even a word?) families are controlling, abusive, and downright scary. Granted this is not a generalization. But the ones I have seen and heard are right smack dab in the middle of unrighteous dominion. My family has also been around since the Church started, but I don't personally think that has anything to do with issues of the church and our acceptance of them.

[srm]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Mar 25 2004, 08:56 PM

I totally disagree... I'm spiritually immature, as well as selfish, because I don't want to practice such a thing? If that is true, then only you and maybe 1% of Mormon women are selfless and spiritually mature. I understand you beliefs, and respect them. I also appreciate your taking the time to respond to my question. But you should know that comes across as quite condescending.

1Cor. 13

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth:

And, again, how were those verses relevant to polygamy?

If the Gospel really is true (which it is) I have faith that in God's plan will work to perfection in heaven. There are many things here that might be difficult but in a perfect world would not be. I trust in God.

[Faerie]

What I think Peace is saying that in regards to polygamy, sure..we're probably 98% if not more "spiritually immature" in regards to THAT concept...

Like I said, Polygamy is one of those "faith testers" and I don't think we're expected to be ready to accept it right now. The women in the church in the beginning had issues w/ it, but accepted it because it was a test of their faith.

I KNOW I'm spiritually immature and selfish in regards to some matters of the Gospel. It's expected, it's a eternal progression of understanding and maturing, and I doubt God is judging us because we can't stomach the idea of our man touching another woman right now. lol!!

It will all be worked out in the end, and we'll look back on this convo and laugh and giggle while we ask wife #5 to get us another Coke..lol

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Mar 25 2004, 08:56 PM

I totally disagree... I'm spiritually immature, as well as selfish, because I don't want to practice such a thing? If that is true, then only you and maybe 1% of Mormon women are selfless and spiritually mature. I understand you beliefs, and respect them. I also appreciate your taking the time to respond to my question. But you should know that comes across as quite condescending.

1Cor. 13

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth:

And, again, how were those verses relevant to polygamy?

Wow....I have never received this response to this teaching before....

I have been on the boards for about 4 years....this question has been rehashed a million times...I have always responded with this scripture and concept and it has always been understood and even embraced to some extent...

I am totally blown away by your statement that this teaching is condescending....I can only figure that you don't understand the concept....which btw is doctrine based upon principles taught in both the D&C and Bible...

Consider this scripture and the implications about the priesthood (which btw, is totally tied to the application of polygamy...) D&C 121:

45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

I am far from trying to be condescending....

If stating a concept of doctrine is condescending...then you have other issues....I can't help you with. Sorry....I really wasn't being condescending by teaching this principle.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by srm+Mar 26 2004, 09:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Mar 26 2004, 09:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Mar 25 2004, 08:56 PM

I totally disagree... I'm spiritually immature, as well as selfish, because I don't want to practice such a thing?  If that is true, then only you and maybe 1% of Mormon women are selfless and spiritually mature.  I understand you beliefs, and respect them.  I also appreciate your taking the time to respond to my question.  But you should know that comes across as quite condescending.

1Cor. 13

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth:

And, again, how were those verses relevant to polygamy?

If the Gospel really is true (which it is) I have faith that in God's plan will work to perfection in heaven. There are many things here that might be difficult but in a perfect world would not be. I trust in God.

True...after much study...a well know group came up with the insightful discovery that charity is perfection....When Matt 5:48 stated that we must become perfect...it was after the part of the sermon which taught how to come to a state of repentence...the be attitudes...which taught being humble, meek, loving God, etc....in the end they would be called the children of God.....or IOW perfect, filled with charity...

[shanstress70]

Wow....I have never received this response to this teaching before....

I have been on the boards for about 4 years....this question has been rehashed a million times...I have always responded with this scripture and concept and it has always been understood and even embraced to some extent...

I am totally blown away by your statement that this teaching is condescending....I can only figure that you don't understand the concept....which btw is doctrine based upon principles taught in both the D&C and Bible...

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying the teaching/scriptures are condescending. I'm saying your own words were: "selfish" and "spiritually immature". Do you ever have questions about the church, or do you understand everything?

I am far from trying to be condescending....

If stating a concept of doctrine is condescending...then you have other issues....I can't help you with. Sorry....I really wasn't being condescending by teaching this principle.

Being a convert, I happen to have insight about what non-members think about our church. Although there are many positive aspects, there is one negative one that stands out in my mind, especially after reading this. Some Mormons have a problem with a 'holier than thou' attitude. I have 'other issues' because I have a problem with the way you stated things?

Hmm, maybe one day we can all be as enlightened and issue-free as you!

Sorry to get off on the wrong foot with you, Peace, but I don't really like to be talked down to. I was more hoping for intellectual conversation about questions I have. I'm not a bad person, and I don't see myself as having any more issues than most.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Mar 26 2004, 06:48 PM

Wow....I have never received this response to this teaching before....

I have been on the boards for about 4 years....this question has been rehashed a million times...I have always responded with this scripture and concept and it has always been understood and even embraced to some extent...

I am totally blown away by your statement that this teaching is condescending....I can only figure that you don't understand the concept....which btw is doctrine based upon principles taught in both the D&C and Bible...

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying the teaching/scriptures are condescending. I'm saying your own words were: "selfish" and "spiritually immature". Do you ever have questions about the church, or do you understand everything?

I am far from trying to be condescending....

If stating a concept of doctrine is condescending...then you have other issues....I can't help you with. Sorry....I really wasn't being condescending by teaching this principle.

Being a convert, I happen to have insight about what non-members think about our church. Although there are many positive aspects, there is one negative one that stands out in my mind, especially after reading this. Some Mormons have a problem with a 'holier than thou' attitude. I have 'other issues' because I have a problem with the way you stated things?

Hmm, maybe one day we can all be as enlightened and issue-free as you!

Sorry to get off on the wrong foot with you, Peace, but I don't really like to be talked down to. I was more hoping for intellectual conversation about questions I have. I'm not a bad person, and I don't see myself as having any more issues than most.

You were the only one who took my post as condescending...doesn't that tell you something?

The 'spiritually imature' and 'selfless' weren't my concepts....they came from sermons from the General Authorities...maybe they are talking down to me...and I'm just not smart enough to know it.

As to getting off on the wrong foot...I am sorry my post disturbed you so much....I have issues...so many infact I am doing a DI drop this week...LOL

Sorry...I just don't know how to address this...

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Mar 26 2004, 07:48 PM

Do you ever have questions about the church, or do you understand everything?

shan, I don't think that is the point. There are many, many things I personally have no grip on. But I have faith and know with an honest heart that all will be delivered(granted I search with patience) to me if I am in pursuit of righteous things and am adhereing to the standards and principles that the lord has placed before me. He has a plan for us, just because we don't know something, or can't figure it out, doesn't mean we won't come to an understanding of it. Some things I believe the Lord wants us to learn beyond the vail, because for human interpertation it would destroy our ability to comprehend, and our faith.

What most "Christians" don't do very well is use a great deal of perception. They also think that we believe we can work our way to Heaven, and that we can become greater than God, or supplant him in equalness of ability. So I guess I am not really worried about those that think I am a "holier than thou" person. That is a very hasty judgement executed with a hard heart.

I personally like learning as if I am a little child, precept upon precept. So maybe that is why when I teach or expound I come across like that, but in no way am I self-righteous in that sense.

[inactivetx]

I, too, have a problem with the polygamy issue. I am a convert and currently inactive. I have just recently been contacted by missionaries to reactive me and I have taken it upon myself to re-read the BoM. I try to ignore the polygamy thing as a past issue, but when I read things like Jacob 2:

23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

24 Behold, David and Solomon• truly had many wives• and concubines, which thing was abominable• before me, saith the Lord.

25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a arighteous• branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one• wife; and concubines he shall have none;

28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or acursed• be the land for their sakes.

It makes the whole flip flipping one wife/many wives stance of God seem a little strange. But to be honest, I pretty much ignore the issue.

[porterrockwell]

The thing I have always thought, is if you have a problem with a "higher" issue, you had better check the foundation of your beliefs. If you know hold the plain and simple truths of the Gospel(COJCOLDS) to be true then think about who is really wanting you to have a problem with the issue you are struggling with. Most people who fall away from the church don't utilize that opportunity.