Blacks And The Priesthood

[LukeAir2006]

Site some evidence that the Jaredites were white, and I'll sight the evidence that they were black.

-a-train

They preferred Eminem to Jay-Z?? B)

[LukeAir2006]

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My view at present is not that God didn't want blacks to have the priesthood due to their lineage. As has been pointed out, Joseph Smith himself ordained at least two black men.

I think the priesthood "ban" and the polygamy "manifesto" have much in common. In both cases, I think the Lord's prophet saw what would happen to the Church if certain things stayed the same. In both cases, I think a decision was made based on the belief that if things stayed the same, the Church would be hamstrung and prevented from moving forward.

I've asked myself the following:

1.) Was Brigham Young the Lord's prophet, approved and authorized by God to lead His Church? I believe so.

2.) Did God want blacks denied the priesthood because they were related to Ham or Cain? I don't believe so.

3.) Why didn't God reveal to Brigham Young that the ban was not a matter of lineage? I believe that if He had, Pres. Young would have heeded such a revelation.

4.) So if it wasn't God's will that blacks be denied the priesthood because of some hereditary curse, why didn't He command Pres. Young to repeal the ban?

My answer to #4 is that perhaps the priesthood ban was wise or even necessary for the Church's progress at that time, but not because blacks were under Cain's curse or Ham's curse. I think that perhaps Pres. Young got the "what" right (the ban) but the "why" wrong (the "curse of Ham or Cain" teaching).

As with the manifesto on polygamy, in the case of the priesthood ban I believe the Lord's prophet foresaw the danger to the Lord's Church that would result from following the present course (which Joseph Smith set when he ordained at least two black men). Much of the Missouri anti-mormonism was due to Joseph Smith and the Church being abolitionists.

I can see Pres. Young reviewing the infamous extermination order, the expulsion of the saints from Missouri with violence and malice, and I can see Pres. Young coming to believe that if the Church continued to ordain blacks and support the idea of a slave-free America (which only the Civil War and hundreds of thousands of deaths could later accomplish), then similar persecution would dog the Church's footsteps no matter where it went.

Whether Pres. Young believed that, and if he did, whether that belief was accurate is a matter of speculation.

What is not a matter of speculation is that the Lord's Church is alive and well today, and all worthy males may receive the holy priesthood.

I'm with you, Crimson... whether Brigham believed that blacks were "cursed" or not is irrelivent because God knew...and God knew what would have happened to our church if he alowed the truth to be known at that time. The truth is...black people are no better or worse, smarter or dumber than white...but in that time period...it was suicide to proclaim it. God has alot of truth that he waits for the RIGHT time to reveal...he knows how much we can stand and when we can stand it...that's why he said..."Line upon line, precept upon precept" All in good order...God was in control then, and still is today.

I love your idea of Prophets of the Lord just spouting off their own ideas and opinions without a care in the world. If Presidents of the Church just make up their own doctrines as they go along, what would make the LDS church any different from any other church.

I'm so glad that I'm a member of a church where there are real Prophets who are guided by the Lord and the doctrines that they teach have been received by revelation.

Not sure what church you guys are members of??

[Guest Yediyd]

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<div class='quotemain'>

My view at present is not that God didn't want blacks to have the priesthood due to their lineage. As has been pointed out, Joseph Smith himself ordained at least two black men.

I think the priesthood "ban" and the polygamy "manifesto" have much in common. In both cases, I think the Lord's prophet saw what would happen to the Church if certain things stayed the same. In both cases, I think a decision was made based on the belief that if things stayed the same, the Church would be hamstrung and prevented from moving forward.

I've asked myself the following:

1.) Was Brigham Young the Lord's prophet, approved and authorized by God to lead His Church? I believe so.

2.) Did God want blacks denied the priesthood because they were related to Ham or Cain? I don't believe so.

3.) Why didn't God reveal to Brigham Young that the ban was not a matter of lineage? I believe that if He had, Pres. Young would have heeded such a revelation.

4.) So if it wasn't God's will that blacks be denied the priesthood because of some hereditary curse, why didn't He command Pres. Young to repeal the ban?

My answer to #4 is that perhaps the priesthood ban was wise or even necessary for the Church's progress at that time, but not because blacks were under Cain's curse or Ham's curse. I think that perhaps Pres. Young got the "what" right (the ban) but the "why" wrong (the "curse of Ham or Cain" teaching).

As with the manifesto on polygamy, in the case of the priesthood ban I believe the Lord's prophet foresaw the danger to the Lord's Church that would result from following the present course (which Joseph Smith set when he ordained at least two black men). Much of the Missouri anti-mormonism was due to Joseph Smith and the Church being abolitionists.

I can see Pres. Young reviewing the infamous extermination order, the expulsion of the saints from Missouri with violence and malice, and I can see Pres. Young coming to believe that if the Church continued to ordain blacks and support the idea of a slave-free America (which only the Civil War and hundreds of thousands of deaths could later accomplish), then similar persecution would dog the Church's footsteps no matter where it went.

Whether Pres. Young believed that, and if he did, whether that belief was accurate is a matter of speculation.

What is not a matter of speculation is that the Lord's Church is alive and well today, and all worthy males may receive the holy priesthood.

I'm with you, Crimson... whether Brigham believed that blacks were "cursed" or not is irrelivent because God knew...and God knew what would have happened to our church if he alowed the truth to be known at that time. The truth is...black people are no better or worse, smarter or dumber than white...but in that time period...it was suicide to proclaim it. God has alot of truth that he waits for the RIGHT time to reveal...he knows how much we can stand and when we can stand it...that's why he said..."Line upon line, precept upon precept" All in good order...God was in control then, and still is today.

I love your idea of Prophets of the Lord just spouting off their own ideas and opinions without a care in the world. If Presidents of the Church just make up their own doctrines as they go along, what would make the LDS church any different from any other church.

I'm so glad that I'm a member of a church where there are real Prophets who are guided by the Lord and the doctrines that they teach have been received by revelation.

Not sure what church you guys are members of??

Why do you have to be so nasty in your comments to others? If you don't agree with us...then dissagree...but stop trying to belittle! Are you taught that in YOUR church as well?

And besides...if you read my post, you would see that I said whether he did or didn't know was irrellivent, I didn't say that he didn't know...just that it was irellivent. I love the Prophets and stick up for them as well..check out my post to Jason in the 5 stones thread...So, please stop being so judgemental...it's very unbecomming.

[LukeAir2006]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

My view at present is not that God didn't want blacks to have the priesthood due to their lineage. As has been pointed out, Joseph Smith himself ordained at least two black men.

I think the priesthood "ban" and the polygamy "manifesto" have much in common. In both cases, I think the Lord's prophet saw what would happen to the Church if certain things stayed the same. In both cases, I think a decision was made based on the belief that if things stayed the same, the Church would be hamstrung and prevented from moving forward.

I've asked myself the following:

1.) Was Brigham Young the Lord's prophet, approved and authorized by God to lead His Church? I believe so.

2.) Did God want blacks denied the priesthood because they were related to Ham or Cain? I don't believe so.

3.) Why didn't God reveal to Brigham Young that the ban was not a matter of lineage? I believe that if He had, Pres. Young would have heeded such a revelation.

4.) So if it wasn't God's will that blacks be denied the priesthood because of some hereditary curse, why didn't He command Pres. Young to repeal the ban?

My answer to #4 is that perhaps the priesthood ban was wise or even necessary for the Church's progress at that time, but not because blacks were under Cain's curse or Ham's curse. I think that perhaps Pres. Young got the "what" right (the ban) but the "why" wrong (the "curse of Ham or Cain" teaching).

As with the manifesto on polygamy, in the case of the priesthood ban I believe the Lord's prophet foresaw the danger to the Lord's Church that would result from following the present course (which Joseph Smith set when he ordained at least two black men). Much of the Missouri anti-mormonism was due to Joseph Smith and the Church being abolitionists.

I can see Pres. Young reviewing the infamous extermination order, the expulsion of the saints from Missouri with violence and malice, and I can see Pres. Young coming to believe that if the Church continued to ordain blacks and support the idea of a slave-free America (which only the Civil War and hundreds of thousands of deaths could later accomplish), then similar persecution would dog the Church's footsteps no matter where it went.

Whether Pres. Young believed that, and if he did, whether that belief was accurate is a matter of speculation.

What is not a matter of speculation is that the Lord's Church is alive and well today, and all worthy males may receive the holy priesthood.

I'm with you, Crimson... whether Brigham believed that blacks were "cursed" or not is irrelivent because God knew...and God knew what would have happened to our church if he alowed the truth to be known at that time. The truth is...black people are no better or worse, smarter or dumber than white...but in that time period...it was suicide to proclaim it. God has alot of truth that he waits for the RIGHT time to reveal...he knows how much we can stand and when we can stand it...that's why he said..."Line upon line, precept upon precept" All in good order...God was in control then, and still is today.

I love your idea of Prophets of the Lord just spouting off their own ideas and opinions without a care in the world. If Presidents of the Church just make up their own doctrines as they go along, what would make the LDS church any different from any other church.

I'm so glad that I'm a member of a church where there are real Prophets who are guided by the Lord and the doctrines that they teach have been received by revelation.

Not sure what church you guys are members of??

Why do you have to be so nasty in your comments to others? If you don't agree with us...then dissagree...but stop trying to belittle! Are you taught that in YOUR church as well?

And besides...if you read my post, you would see that I said whether he did or didn't know was irrellivent, I didn't say that he didn't know...just that it was irellivent. I love the Prophets and stick up for them as well..check out my post to Jason in the 5 stones thread...So, please stop being so judgemental...it's very unbecomming.

I'm not trying to belittle you. I'm telling you that you're wrong. You have the spirit of apostasy. I don't know who 'we' is, but you teach for doctrines your own warped ideas. This usually takes you out of the church and straight into the arms of satan. Try and get a testimony of the truth first and then maybe things will fall into place. :)

[Guest Yediyd]

Whatever!

[a-train]

OK, help me, a young man whose quest for knowledge is in it's beginnings. Perhaps I will fester a wound here, but I hope to aquire knowledge of healing and not pick at old injuries.

Was there no race which sprang from Ham, 'which preserved the curse in the land'?

Consider Noah's dealings with Pharoah who Abraham called 'a righteous man'. Did Noah suffer from the same 'misunderstanding' as Brigham Young when he 'cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood'?

Was Pharoah's lineage not 'that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood'?

Did not President Young tell us that the Priesthood would eventually go forth to that race in the due time of the LORD?

Did he not also tell us that the so-called whites are NOT white really, and that after the fall we ALL became slaves?

Then there comes the question of why. Why was there a 'lineage by which [one] could not have the right of Priesthood'?

Why was the righteous man Pharoah, who sought 'earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom' 'cursed' 'pertaining to the Priesthood'?

Perhaps we could ask why so many have been consigned to pass through mortality and into death without the priesthood. What about the Gospel at all? Or, why would the earth have need of the time period from the Great Apostasy to the Restoration wherein the Church was hidden in the wilderness from the world? How many perished in the Great Diluge without a knowledge of the Gospel? How many Chinese are dying daily right now with no intimation of the Restoration or of our LORD's ministry?

Why? Why? Why?

Ahh.

I am confident in believing that it all has a wise purpose in the LORD. He knows the hearts and minds of His children and has placed us all in this world that we may each pass specific tests in the developement of our own souls.

We LDS have benefit of the notion that the LORD's work in the individual's developement did NOT begin at temporal birth and does not end with temporal death. Let us not assume therefore that the great spectrum of diversity manifested in the various scenarios of each individual's mortality suggest an unfairness or a respect of persons on the LORD's part or that of his servants.

Let us also understand that mortality is NOT a just reward for the works of pre-mortal existance or those of the flesh, but it is 'a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.' (Alma 42:4)

-a-train

[Guest Yediyd]

OK, help me, a young man whose quest for knowledge is in it's beginnings. Perhaps I will fester a wound here, but I hope to aquire knowledge of healing and not pick at old injuries.

Was there no race which sprang from Ham, 'which preserved the curse in the land'?

Consider Noah's dealings with Pharoah who Abraham called 'a righteous man'. Did Noah suffer from the same 'misunderstanding' as Brigham Young when he 'cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood'?

Was Pharoah's lineage not 'that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood'?

Did not President Young tell us that the Priesthood would eventually go forth to that race in the due time of the LORD?

Did he not also tell us that the so-called whites are NOT white really, and that after the fall we ALL became slaves?

Then there comes the question of why. Why was there a 'lineage by which [one] could not have the right of Priesthood'?

Why was the righteous man Pharoah, who sought 'earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom' 'cursed' 'pertaining to the Priesthood'?

Perhaps we could ask why so many have been consigned to pass through mortality and into death without the priesthood. What about the Gospel at all? Or, why would the earth have need of the time period from the Great Apostasy to the Restoration wherein the Church was hidden in the wilderness from the world? How many perished in the Great Diluge without a knowledge of the Gospel? How many Chinese are dying daily right now with no intimation of the Restoration or of our LORD's ministry?

Why? Why? Why?

Ahh.

I am confident in believing that it all has a wise purpose in the LORD. He knows the hearts and minds of His children and has placed us all in this world that we may each pass specific tests in the developement of our own souls.

We LDS have benefit of the notion that the LORD's work in the individual's developement did NOT begin at temporal birth and does not end with temporal death. Let us not assume therefore that the great spectrum of diversity manifested in the various scenarios of each individual's mortality suggest an unfairness or a respect of persons on the LORD's part or that of his servants.

Let us also understand that mortality is NOT a just reward for the works of pre-mortal existance or those of the flesh, but it is 'a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.' (Alma 42:4)

-a-train

VERY well said, a-train!

[sixpacktr]

Let us also understand that mortality is NOT a just reward for the works of pre-mortal existance or those of the flesh, but it is 'a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God.' (Alma 42:4)

-a-train

A-train,

I think we are saying the same thing, but in different ways??

I happen to believe that there was a curse placed upon the blacks, for whatever reason, that goes back to the pre-existence. I believe that has been lifted, and was happy about it (as I stated in a previous post). I DO think that there is a reward here upon the earth for our actions in the pre-existence, as evidenced by Alma 13:3 (but read the whole chapter)

3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

What caused this? Our valiance in the pre-existence. The Lord, thru Alma, states that.

I happen to believe Pres McConkie. He was an apostle of the Lord. He knew more than I do. I choose not to disagree with him. But perhaps it was a burden placed upon a people in mercy, to avoid damnation for something they couldn't handle? I'm just conjecturing here, and in no way saying that whites are therefore superior, etc. All I'm saying, like you did earlier, is that the Lord is in control and one day we will have all things made known to us. Until then, I follow what the prophets tell me as best as possible and hope I can endure. The "whys" mean nothing to me. Just that until 1978, for whatever reason, blacks could not hold the PH. Now, they can, and can participate in all ways in the gospel, and have been a great blessing to the church and PH.

[Jason]

The "whys" mean nothing to me.

That's not true, or you wouldn't be participating in this and other threads.

[sixpacktr]

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The "whys" mean nothing to me.

That's not true, or you wouldn't be participating in this and other threads.

Jason,

Yeah, you caught me I do like to conjecture on things.

What I MEANT was that I don't know, don't care, and someday will be told, and that is okay with me...

Does that clarify it??

[Jason]

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<div class='quotemain'>

The "whys" mean nothing to me.

That's not true, or you wouldn't be participating in this and other threads.

Jason,

Yeah, you caught me I do like to conjecture on things.

What I MEANT was that I don't know, don't care, and someday will be told, and that is okay with me...

Does that clarify it??

Yeah, but again, if you didn't care, you wouldn't be here.

[sixpacktr]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

The "whys" mean nothing to me.

That's not true, or you wouldn't be participating in this and other threads.

Jason,

Yeah, you caught me I do like to conjecture on things.

What I MEANT was that I don't know, don't care, and someday will be told, and that is okay with me...

Does that clarify it??

Yeah, but again, if you didn't care, you wouldn't be here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But seriously, I didn't really come here for those reasons. I came here because I have questions on some things, things you can't discuss in SS or PH meeting because of the wide diversity of understanding in those classes, and it is interesting to get other's viewpoints, to help me with understanding things.

So I guess it really isn't so much as a "why?" to every topic, but to see what others think, to put my two cents worth in, bounce ideas off the wall, etc...

[a-train]

Six,

When asked 'if the spirits of Negroes were neutral in heaven,' Brigham Young answered, 'no, they were not, there were no neutral [spirits] in heaven at the time of the rebellion, all took sides.... All spirits are pure that came from the presence of God.' (Journal History, 25 December 1869, citing Wilford Woodruff's journal.)

Now, I have heard the old falsehood that black skin is an indication that the spirit possessing such a body failed to stand with the valiant spirits in heaven in support of the Lamb of God. I also know that Bruce R. McConkie was compelled to make many changes to his book Mormon Doctrine by the First Presidency and the Twelve, changes that included the deletion of the notion of neutrality of blacks in the war in heaven.

Now I honor and respect Bruce R. McConkie. In fact I celebrate him as a scholar and great Elder in this dispensation. But we must also recognize the enormity of the task he set out to do in creating his volume that has come under the microscope of judgement so scrutinously. I applaud him in his efforts and have read the book many times, but I also must acknowledge that in this particular he was compelled to correct the book that it may stand in concordance with the teachings of the Prophets such as what President Young taught on December 25, 1869.

Now I do believe we are for the most part saying the same thing. Allow me to place emphasis on Alma 13:3 which as you quoted says: 'And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.'

Let us not enter into the old philosophical debates about whether such foreknowledge of God negates man's agency. Let us also be aware that Alma was speaking about the agency of man within mortality and their choosing between good and evil here in the Second Estate, after the fall. (Read Chapter 12)

And let us also be in rememberance that the Priesthood we are speaking of is something obtained in connection with the Second Estate and the exceeding faith and good works, the selection of good, and the reception of the holy calling of this Priesthood are activities within the Second Estate and no valiance in the First Estate automatically qualifies a man to this Priesthood, but he must be worthy here also. Therefore, as we have been told repeatedly, the foreordination men obtained in the pre-mortal world is of no effect when transgression and unworthiness prevents them from being chosen in this world. We all know many are called, but few are chosen.

Let us not therefore assume that a man who did not obtain the Priesthood within his mortality was not foreordained to such because of some unworthiness carried with him from the First Estate.

BUT!!!, Let us ALSO not automatically suppose that a man who did not obtain the Priesthood in this world did not do so because of transgression or unworthiness. I didn't receive the keys to the Bishoprick in my ward, is that because my Bishop is more righteous than I? Were the Levites more righteous than the rest of Israel who did not receive the Aaronic Priesthood?

Let us understand that as long as we are worthy and willing to fulfill our callings, whatever they are, we will be blessed by the LORD and we will eventually receive all the ordinances, Priesthoods, washings, anointings, blessings, and sealings the LORD has in store for those that have faith in the Saviour and live the Gospel, we will receive all this in the due time of the LORD and no sooner.

GOD BLESS

-a-train

[CrimsonKairos]

Luke, you were wrong to say Yediyd has a spirit of apostasy.

Examine yourself.

And do us a favor...stop twisting our posts. No one said Prophets make up doctrine. I said I thought Pres. Young used a mix of inspiration and wisdom in instituting the policy known as the priesthood ban.

Yes, I think he and Elder McConkie got the "why" wrong. Thank goodness there is no standard that says Prophets must cease to be mortal upon assuming their mantle.

And I thank God we have them leading the Church.

[sixpacktr]

A-Train,

Good thoughts all. And I agree with much of what you say, and am aware of some of the revisions to MD. Like I said, I don't know all of the whys, and someday it will be clear to me. I do believe that the Lord in his mercy did this, however, to keep them from being eternally damned, for whatever reason. The Lord just isn't arbitrary, IMHO.

However, I think that Alma 13, the first verses, speaks a lot more to the pre-existence than to just this 2nd estate. Like Joseph said, in regards to his calling, that he felt he had been foreordained to do what he was then doing, and like Abraham said (thou wert one of the great ones), I think that the MP, and HP in particular, showed something that allows them to have it here. Now, much like the covenants we make in the temple, where we are anointed to be like our HF ONLY IF we keep his commandments and our covenants here, I believe that I was called up and anointed, and in fact took classes in what it was like to be a HP, EQP, YMP, etc. (this the gospel according to me, just to clarify, but something I think happened. I don't think that HF just "threw us in the deep end" and said "good luck", but that we were trained extensively to fulfill our missions--but I digress), but that if I had chosen on this earth to turn my back I would forfeit those blessings.

So I do think that I showed "exceeding great faith and good works" in the pre-existence, and my reward was being born into a family where my dad joined the church when I was young, to where I would know and be reared in a house where the gospel was present. Again, it makes me better than no one, but it does put more of a burden on me because I know better, and more is expected of me (Luke 12:48, D&C 82:3)

[Guest Yediyd]

Luke, you were wrong to say Yediyd has a spirit of apostasy.

Examine yourself.

And do us a favor...stop twisting our posts. No one said Prophets make up doctrine. I said I thought Pres. Young used a mix of inspiration and wisdom in instituting the policy known as the priesthood ban.

Yes, I think he and Elder McConkie got the "why" wrong. Thank goodness there is no standard that says Prophets must cease to be mortal upon assuming their mantle.

And I thank God we have them leading the Church.

Thank you, CK...

It's like I said in the "5 stones" thread...there are plenty of instances of the Prophet being wrong but he is STILL a Prophet of God...Jonah, Baalim, Even Elijah sat under a junper tree and just wanted to give up. Prophrts are MEN who are inspired of God...but MEN just the same...they are not purfact...is that a spirit of aposticey? I love the Prophets, but I worship GOD!!!!!!

[CrimsonKairos]

Sixpack, have you ruled out the possibility that the priesthood ban wasn't about blacks at all, but about whites? In other words, do you view it as impossible that the priesthood ban was more due to the racist slave-holding anti-mormons persecuting the Church, and not any pre-existance cause?

As for a tangent... :) I don't think we are born where we are and when we are as reward for premortal performance or anything.

I think God places us where He does and when He does in order to allow us to have the greatest opportunity to grow and progress towards reaching our individual potential, whatever that that may be. But that's just my personal opinion.

[sixpacktr]

CK,

No, I don't rule out anything at all! Like I have said, I really don't know the whys, and they really don't matter to me.

All that matters is that we make the most of this estate that we can...

[Jason]

Sixpack, have you ruled out the possibility that the priesthood ban wasn't about blacks at all, but about whites? In other words, do you view it as impossible that the priesthood ban was more due to the racist slave-holding anti-mormons persecuting the Church, and not any pre-existance cause?

As for a tangent... :) I don't think we are born where we are and when we are as reward for premortal performance or anything.

I think God places us where He does and when He does in order to allow us to have the greatest opportunity to grow and progress towards reaching our individual potential, whatever that that may be. But that's just my personal opinion.

[Snow]

And do us a favor...stop twisting our posts. No one said Prophets make up doctrine. I said I thought Pres. Young used a mix of inspiration and wisdom in instituting the policy known as the priesthood ban.

I curious to know which parts were wisdom and which were inspiration.

Why do you think it was wise to deny the priesthood to blacks?

[Guest mamacat]

there is a book that i've reviewed, written by a black member of the priesthood, who claims that the history of his people's involvement in the evil manifestations of voodoo is the reason for the ban.

i don't really give credence to this notion, but it is somewhat interesting. don't know why he'd feel compelled to write something such as that.

[Jason]

there is a book that i've reviewed, written by a black member of the priesthood, who claims that the history of his people's involvement in the evil manifestations of voodoo is the reason for the ban.

i don't really give credence to this notion, but it is somewhat interesting. don't know why he'd feel compelled to write something such as that.

Many flaws with that argument. The biggest is that Voodoo is of west African origin. If it were based on that, then why punish the rest of the continent?!

[Guest mamacat]

i think he claims that it spread from there.....he was actually from Haiti. i would seek out the book, but it's not really something i would wish to put forth as "the reason" here. i read a few of the chapters, and he makes a convincing case....but upon reflection, i don't really like the premise, nor do i find it valid....and i know that a white person would not be able to get away with writing something like that. hence my questioning his 'motive' for writing something of that nature.

[Jason]

i think he claims that it spread from there.....he was actually from Haiti. i would seek out the book, but it's not really something i would wish to put forth as "the reason" here. i read a few of the chapters, and he makes a convincing case....but upon reflection, i don't really like the premise, nor do i find it valid....and i know that a white person would not be able to get away with writing something like that. hence my questioning his 'motive' for writing something of that nature.

I wrote an 81 page booklet on the "Curse of Cain" about 8 years ago. I can give you more quotes on the reasons for the ban than you would care to read. None of them have anything to do with so-called pagan religions.

[Jason]

What the heck, here's a discourse of BY's outlining the curse of Cain:

“I will remark with regard to Slavery, inasmuch as we believe in the Bible, inasmuch as we believe in the Ordinances of God, in the Priesthood and order and decrees of God, we must believe in Slavery. This colored race have been subjected to severe curses, which they have in their families and their classes and in their various capacities brought upon themselves. And until the curse is removed by Him who placed it upon them, they must suffer under its consequences; I am not authorized to remove it. . . . The African enjoys the right of receiving the first principles of the Gospel, this liberty is held out to all these servants, they enjoy the liberty of being baptized for the remission of sins, and of receiving the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands; they enjoy the privilege of living humble before the Lord their great master, so as to enjoy the spirit of the Lord continually; in short, as far as the common comforts of life, salvation, light, truth, enjoyment, and understanding is concerned, the black African has precisely the same privilege as the white man. But they cannon hold the Priesthood, and inasmuch as they cannot bear any share in the Priesthood, they cannot bear rule, they cannot bear rule in any place until the curse is removed from them, they are a ‘servant of servants’. . . . [N]ow suppose that we should have a servant, and he should be a Negro, it is all right, it is perfectly reasonable, and strictly according to the Holy Priesthood. . . . When the Lord God cursed old Cain, He said, ‘Until the last drop of Abel’s blood receives the Priesthood, and enjoys the blessings of the same, Cain shall bear the curse,’ then Cain is calculated to have his share next, and not until then; consequently, I am a firm in the belief that they ought to dwell in servitude.” (The Teachings of President Brigham Young, Vol. 3. 26-28)

I've got 80 pages of this stuff. Let me know if you want to read more.