Why Did God Have Different Rules For Joseph Smith?

[Guest Yediyd]

Ok, I'm probably opening a can of worms here...but I would like LDS opinions as to why God told Moses in Exodus 33:20 that he could not (nor could any man) see his face and live and then appeared to a 14 year old boy face to face with Jesus Christ?

Also, Elijah was held in the clef of the rock and only aloud to see God's backside.

I'm not questioning the first vision...just wondering why God had differen't rules for Joseph Smith than he did for Old Testiment Prophets?

God was the same God then, that he is today...so why did his word change?

And please don't assume that I am trying to spread discourse...I am puzzled by this and would like sound, doctrinal answers if there are some...Thank you.

[sixpacktr]

Yediyd,

JST, EXODUS 33:20, 23 (compare Exodus 33:20, 23)

(No sinful man can see God's face and live.)

20. And he said unto Moses, Thou canst not see my face at this time, lest mine anger be kindled against thee also, and I destroy thee, and thy people; for there shall no man among them see me at this time, and live, for they are exceeding sinful. And no sinful man hath at any time, neither shall there be any sinful man at any time, that shall see my face and live.

23. And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen as at other times; for I am angry with my people Israel.

(JST | Exodus 33:Entry - 23)

Check out the Joseph Smith Translation. In essence, we have to be transfigured to endure his presence. A sinful man cannot do that, and, as you can see, it was directed more at Israel than at Moses per se.

[Guest Yediyd]

Yediyd,

JST, EXODUS 33:20, 23 (compare Exodus 33:20, 23)

(No sinful man can see God's face and live.)

20. And he said unto Moses, Thou canst not see my face at this time, lest mine anger be kindled against thee also, and I destroy thee, and thy people; for there shall no man among them see me at this time, and live, for they are exceeding sinful. And no sinful man hath at any time, neither shall there be any sinful man at any time, that shall see my face and live.

23. And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen as at other times; for I am angry with my people Israel.

(JST | Exodus 33:Entry - 23)

Check out the Joseph Smith Translation. In essence, we have to be transfigured to endure his presence. A sinful man cannot do that, and, as you can see, it was directed more at Israel than at Moses per se.

OHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! Thank you SO MUCH! Sixpacktr....I still havn't learned to check out the JST. I was reading the Bible online last night and came accross this...thanks for reminding me about the JST.

So you're saying that young JS had to be translated before he had his first vision? Is that why the fierce darkness?

And if he was translated...then did God make him mortal again after the vision?

Same question for God's appearences in the Temples. DId he translate, then untranslate the men he appeared to?

[Jason]

Mr. Obvious might say that Joseph changed the verses that don't fit for his own personal reasons.

[MaidservantX]

Transfigured and translated are not really the same -- unless it is a matter of degree? As you know, we have the traditional term, Mount of Transfiguration, where Peter (+) witnessed some glory of the Savior and other beings.

But it does seem obvious that if the body is being changed into a condition that is capable of withstanding glory or the witnessing of glory, then, yes, some sort of return to original condition would then take place when the experience was over. Although -- would there be lingering effects? :)

As for Joseph Smith changing the verses -- well, yedi, what does the Hebrew say for that verse? Also in Exodus you will know that Jehovah planned on "coming down" and appearing to or visiting with the seventy elders (or perhaps the whole camp?) and when Moses mentioned as much, the people said "Noo way. We don't want to see God!" (It freaked them out.) So when Moses relayed that back to God, God said, "Fine. I won't come."

Also, even in King James Version, I just opened it -- it says right in 33:11 (starting in verse 9) that the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. Even in King James English it is unutterably clear.

I was skimming through Exodus, so I could point out the story of the seventy elders, and I found it in chapter 24. It seems that they did see God. So I don't know where I"m getting the story of persons saying 'no' to the privilege. I don't have time to look further right now.

[Guest Yediyd]

Thanks x, I never paid attention to Jason's comment...the rest of what you said makes perfact sence. Now I understand and am grateful that I was able to come up here with my silly questions!

[MaidservantX]

Not silly, yedi! I love this stuff -- especially Old Testament. It gives me a chance to go over it all again, my favorite stuff. By the way, you know a lot more than many lds about your scriptures, yedi (you know more than me!) -- enough to ask super questions!

[a-train]

Xhen is right.

We must also take into account these passages that were NOT changed by Joseph Smith:

When Jacob wrestled with the LORD and his name was changed to Israel it is recorded: 'And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.' (Gen 32:30)

In Sichem, 'the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.' (Gen. 12:7)

Again we see in Genesis 17:1: 'And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.'

Also to Abraham 'the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;' (Gen. 18:1)

Then as Isaac was in Beer-sheba, 'the Lord appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham’s sake.' (Gen. 26:24)

Then, in that famous episode wherein Moses was given the name of God, the LORD commaded him: 'Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt:' (Exodus 3:16)

In a different episode, 'went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink'. (Exodus 24:9-11)

On a seperate occasion, when Moses worshipped in the Tabernacle: 'all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door. And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.' (Exodus 33:10-11)

It should be noted that 'as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle.' (Exodus 33:9) D&C 84:5 defines such a cloud in the temple 'which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.'

Do NOT miss the fact that after this conversation Moses 'turned again into the camp'. (Exodus 33:11)

It was later, outside the tabernacle that the LORD said: 'my face shall not be seen.' (Exodus 33:23)

At the end of Moses' life, 'the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thy days approach that thou must die: call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacle of the congregation, that I may give him a charge. And Moses and Joshua went, and presented themselves in the tabernacle of the congregation. And the LORD appeared in the tabernacle in a pillar of a cloud: and the pillar of the cloud stood over the door of the tabernacle.' (Deuteronomy 31:14-15)

Check out 1 Samuel 3:21: 'And the LORD appeared again in Shiloh: for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD.'

In Gibeon, 1 Kings 3:5: 'the LORD appeared to Solomon in a dream by night: and God said, Ask what I shall give thee.'

Again in 1 Kings 9:2 'the LORD appeared to Solomon the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon.'

The LORD's displeasure with Solomon's 'evil in the sight of the LORD' is spoken of thus: 'And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice'. (1 Kings 11:9)

2 Chronicles 3:1 says: 'Then Solomon began to build the house of the LORD at Jerusalem in mount Moriah, where the LORD appeared unto David his father, in the place that David had prepared in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.'

In Jeremiah's prophecies of Israel he said: 'The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.' (Jeremiah 31:3)

It is difficult for me to read the Old Testament and yet say: 'The prophets of old did NOT see God, nor did He appear to them.' The question of how to reconcile verses such as these mentioned with passages such as Exodus 33:20 are answered well by later-day revelation.

Also, the account of Jesus' transfiguration in Matthew 17 demonstrates that the presence of the Father was accompanied by a 'bright cloud' and Jesus' 'face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.' (Also see Mark 9 and Luke 9)

Most of the 'no-man-hath-seen-God-adherents' use John 1:18: 'No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.' Now this ONLY would exclude the Father from having been seen, but Jesus also said: 'Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.' (John 6:46) The JST makes all these verses agree.

It is extremely difficult for me to see any vindication from the scriptures that none of the prophets were transfigured, none of them saw God, and none of them spoke with Him 'face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend'. Of a surety, they did.

-a-train

[Guest Yediyd]

Not silly, yedi! I love this stuff -- especially Old Testament. It gives me a chance to go over it all again, my favorite stuff. By the way, you know a lot more than many lds about your scriptures, yedi (you know more than me!) -- enough to ask super questions!

You are too kind! I DO love this stuff, too! That's why I have become hoplessly addicted to the forums!

[Guest Emma Hale Smith]

<div class='quotemain'>

Not silly, yedi! I love this stuff -- especially Old Testament. It gives me a chance to go over it all again, my favorite stuff. By the way, you know a lot more than many lds about your scriptures, yedi (you know more than me!) -- enough to ask super questions!

You are too kind! I DO love this stuff, too! That's why I have become hoplessly addicted to the forums!

Yediyd, I agree with xhenli. I know very little about the scriptures and am usually bored by them. But having read many of your posts demonstrating your knowledge of the them, I am extremely impressed. I especially agree that you know so much you ask compelling questions, and I often find myself intrigued to hear the answer.

Emma

[Guest Yediyd]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

Not silly, yedi! I love this stuff -- especially Old Testament. It gives me a chance to go over it all again, my favorite stuff. By the way, you know a lot more than many lds about your scriptures, yedi (you know more than me!) -- enough to ask super questions!

You are too kind! I DO love this stuff, too! That's why I have become hoplessly addicted to the forums!

Yediyd, I agree with xhenli. I know very little about the scriptures and am usually bored by them. But having read many of your posts demonstrating your knowledge of the them, I am extremely impressed. I especially agree that you know so much you ask compelling questions, and I often find myself intrigued to hear the answer.

Emma

Wow! You gals are awsome! Thank you for that...I just LOVE the Bible! And I am learning more and more about the Book of Mormon.

[CrimsonKairos]

The difference between transfiguration and translation is simply this:

Translation is an extended "quickening" of the mortal body that has two effects: (1) the body takes on celestial glory; (2) the body isn't subject to death (Moses was translated so as to be able to appear in the flesh at the Mt. of Transfiguration in the NT, though John the Baptist was resurrected so as to be able to confer the keys of the Aaronic priesthood on Joseph Smith in person).

Transfiguration is a temporary "quickening" of the mortal body to celestial glory, as in Moses at Mt. Sinai (whose face also shone when he came down from seeing God, see Ex. 34).

[a-train]

Joseph Smith explained: 'Many have supposed that the doctrine of translation was a doctrine whereby men were taken immediately into the presence of God, and into an eternal fullness, but this is a mistaken idea. Their place of habitation is that of the terrestrial order, and a place prepared for such characters He held in reserve to be ministering angels unto many planets, and who as yet have not entered into so great a fullness as those who are resurrected from the dead.' (TPJS, p. 170).

Let us understand that translation is NOT analogous to Celestialization.

Transfiguration is simply a temporary condition that enables a man to endure God's presence and return to Telestial mortality.

Translation is the elevation of a mortal being to an immortal Terrestial status not to return to mortality.

Resurrection can be an immortal restoration of life to any of the Telestial, Terrestial, or Celestial orders.

-a-train

[CrimsonKairos]

Let us understand that translation is NOT analogous to Celestialization.

What I meant was that they receive that portion of glory which would allow them to endure the presence of a Celestial Being (i.e. God) without being consumed. If I made it sound as if they were exalted or perfected, I misspoke and I apologize.

Transfiguration is simply a temporary condition that enables a man to endure God's presence and return to Terestial mortality.

Aren't we living in a telestial world? I'm not referring to scientific delineation (i.e. extra-terrestrials), but the gospel classification of this world.

[a-train]

Ahh,

You got me. I always type those wrong. It is supposed to be:

'Transfiguration is simply a temporary condition that enables a man to endure God's presence and return to Telestial mortality.'

Thus only one 'r'. It is supposed to be an 'l'.

I went ahead and changed it so peeps skimming through aren't confused. Thanks.

-a-train