condescension of God?

[Traveler]

....

 

I think you are confused because of your perception of sacrifice.  According to LDS.org, sacrifice is defined as; "To sacrifice is to give up something valuable or precious, often with the intent of accomplishing a greater purpose or goal."

 

...

 

Note the concept - "to give up" as well as the idea of "a greater purpose or goal".  Though you say that we are to act with an eye single to the glory of G-d (which interestingly is not nor has it ever been to glorify himself) - you are insistent that the ends result is and must be our own glory that is increased.  The truth of divine condescension is, and I am not sure you really understand, that the glory never will ever be yours, or mine or anyone else’s to have for ourselves. 

[Seminarysnoozer]

Note the concept - "to give up" as well as the idea of "a greater purpose or goal".  Though you say that we are to act with an eye single to the glory of G-d (which interestingly is not nor has it ever been to glorify himself) - you are insistent that the ends result is and must be our own glory that is increased.  The truth of divine condescension is, and I am not sure you really understand, that the glory never will ever be yours, or mine or anyone else’s to have for ourselves. 

Well then I am not sure what gospel you are talking about.  We are told in LDS teachings that we can have ALL that God has, that is the definition of eternal life.  God's work is to provide His children with everything He has, that is what He wants because He loves us so much.  I love Him so much that I want to be like Him in every way, all His glory and joy (which is what glory is).  His work and glory is to give us His glory.  He loves us that much.

 

Like the story of the prodigal son, our inheritance is ours to loose. But, if we follow God's will and not our own whims like the prodigal son did then we can have all the Father has.  So, gracious is His love that even if we make a mistake while in this mortal realm He gave us a way to come back and still receive ALL. Just like the sons in the story of the prodigal son, it is possible to have all the father has without the father giving up anything. The father, in that story, only lost something when a portion was taken as the son's full inheritance. 

 

We can have God's glory and ALL he has for ourself but certainly not by ourself.  If by definition, God's glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man than it was never something that could be of exclusive propietaryship, it has to of inclusive propietaryship.  It would be impossible for Him to maintain exclusive ownership if His glory is dependent on sharing it, which is the definition of Eternal life - a life of empathetic sharing. In other words, if we didn't receive it for ourself, there is no glory in the act of giving it. That cannot be separated.

[Traveler]

Well then I am not sure what gospel you are talking about.  We are told in LDS teachings that we can have ALL that God has, that is the definition of eternal life.  God's work is to provide His children with everything He has, that is what He wants because He loves us so much.  I love Him so much that I want to be like Him in every way, all His glory and joy (which is what glory is).  His work and glory is to give us His glory.  He loves us that much.

 

Like the story of the prodigal son, our inheritance is ours to loose. But, if we follow God's will and not our own whims like the prodigal son did then we can have all the Father has.  So, gracious is His love that even if we make a mistake while in this mortal realm He gave us a way to come back and still receive ALL. Just like the sons in the story of the prodigal son, it is possible to have all the father has without the father giving up anything. The father, in that story, only lost something when a portion was taken as the son's full inheritance. 

 

We can have God's glory and ALL he has for ourself but certainly not by ourself.  If by definition, God's glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man than it was never something that could be of exclusive propietaryship, it has to of inclusive propietaryship.  It would be impossible for Him to maintain exclusive ownership if His glory is dependent on sharing it, which is the definition of Eternal life - a life of empathetic sharing. In other words, if we didn't receive it for ourself, there is no glory in the act of giving it. That cannot be separated.

 

It is my understanding that marriage is an element of the LDS divine eternal - going for all the glory may work for you and your happiness but I have not found much success in the attitude or the effort that it is all about me getting all the glory or even just my fair share.

 

And to be honest - I do not understand at all how you can say that we must have an eye single to the glory of G-d then in the next breath say that we must have that eye single to the glory of G-d so that we can have all such glory for ourselves.  As for myself - I really do not want to closely associate with those convinced getting even the glory they deserve is  really what life is all about. 

 

One attribute of G-d that I personally am drawn to and respect greatly is his willingness to forgo all the glory stuff and  condescend for the single purpose of the benefit of someone else.  I honestly do not believe glory is all that important to G-d - which, at least for me, is the prime reason I am willing to let him suffer that burden.  And if I must suffer that burden of glory with him it is only because I owe him such for all that he has done for me.

[Seminarysnoozer]

It is my understanding that marriage is an element of the LDS divine eternal - going for all the glory may work for you and your happiness but I have not found much success in the attitude or the effort that it is all about me getting all the glory or even just my fair share.

 

And to be honest - I do not understand at all how you can say that we must have an eye single to the glory of G-d then in the next breath say that we must have that eye single to the glory of G-d so that we can have all such glory for ourselves.  As for myself - I really do not want to closely associate with those convinced getting even the glory they deserve is  really what life is all about. 

 

One attribute of G-d that I personally am drawn to and respect greatly is his willingness to forgo all the glory stuff and  condescend for the single purpose of the benefit of someone else.  I honestly do not believe glory is all that important to G-d - which, at least for me, is the prime reason I am willing to let him suffer that burden.  And if I must suffer that burden of glory with him it is only because I owe him such for all that he has done for me.

Then I guess you do not understand what is His glory.  His glory is to have His focus on someone else. His glory is to bring to pass the immortality and Eternal Life of man.  Why does the scripture say "with an eye single to the glory of God" and not 'with an eye single to God'?  I think it is very important to understand why the word "glory" is in that phrase.  The importance of the word "glory" is to understand what is mean by "glory".  Christ is focused on the glory of God when He condescends.  He is focused on God's glory when He expresses His love for us.

 

If his work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and Eternal life of man, how can you in the next phrase say "I honestly do not believe glory is all that important to God".  Then, you are saying that bringing about the immortality and Eternal Life of man is not all that important.  They are hand in hand, one cannot be separated from the other.  The glory is in the giving and showing of love.  What is so hard to understand about that?

 

One cannot have faith without hope.  Hope for what?  Eternal life, we hope for all things.  This is the admonition of Paul.  Do you not believe in the 13th article of faith?

Moroni 7; " 40 And again, my beloved brethren, I would speak unto you concerning ^ahope. How is it that ye can attain unto faith, save ye shall have hope?

 41 And what is it that ye shall ^ahope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have ^bhope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life ^ceternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise.

 42 Wherefore, if a man have ^afaith he ^bmust needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope."

 

We must have hope to be raised unto life eternal!!  What is life eternal?  The life that God has.

 

Gospel Principles, chapter 47; "Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.", "Our Heavenly Father is perfect, and He glories in the fact that it is possible for His children to become like Him. His work and glory is “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39)."

 

D&C 132; 19; "...in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their ^jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the ^kseeds forever and ever.

 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from ^aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be ^bgods, because they have ^call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

 21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my ^alaw ye cannot attain to this glory."

 

Gospel Principles Chapter 47 describes what is received by those that obtain Eternal Life; "Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1.They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23).2. They will be united eternally with their righteous family members and will be able to have eternal increase. 3. They will receive a fulness of joy.  4. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20)."

 

For those that don't know, the 13th Article of Faith states; "...we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."

 

James Faust; "I witness from the depths of my soul that we are engaged in His holy work, to which, if we are faithful, we can be crowned with honor, glory, and eternal life. (See D&C 75:5.)"

D&C 75; " 5 And thus, if ye are faithful ye shall be laden with many ^asheaves, and ^bcrowned with honor, and glory, and immortality, and eternal life."

[Traveler]

Then I guess you do not understand what is His glory.  His glory is to have His focus on someone else. His glory is to bring to pass the immortality and Eternal Life of man.  Why does the scripture say "with an eye single to the glory of God" and not 'with an eye single to God'?  I think it is very important to understand why the word "glory" is in that phrase.  The importance of the word "glory" is to understand what is mean by "glory".  Christ is focused on the glory of God when He condescends.  He is focused on God's glory when He expresses His love for us.

 

If his work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and Eternal life of man, how can you in the next phrase say "I honestly do not believe glory is all that important to God".  Then, you are saying that bringing about the immortality and Eternal Life of man is not all that important.  They are hand in hand, one cannot be separated from the other.  The glory is in the giving and showing of love.  What is so hard to understand about that?

 

One cannot have faith without hope.  Hope for what?  Eternal life, we hope for all things.  This is the admonition of Paul.  Do you not believe in the 13th article of faith?

Moroni 7; " 40 And again, my beloved brethren, I would speak unto you concerning ^ahope. How is it that ye can attain unto faith, save ye shall have hope?

 41 And what is it that ye shall ^ahope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have ^bhope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life ^ceternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise.

 42 Wherefore, if a man have ^afaith he ^bmust needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope."

 

We must have hope to be raised unto life eternal!!  What is life eternal?  The life that God has.

 

Gospel Principles, chapter 47; "Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.", "Our Heavenly Father is perfect, and He glories in the fact that it is possible for His children to become like Him. His work and glory is “to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39)."

 

D&C 132; 19; "...in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their ^jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the ^kseeds forever and ever.

 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from ^aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be ^bgods, because they have ^call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

 21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my ^alaw ye cannot attain to this glory."

 

Gospel Principles Chapter 47 describes what is received by those that obtain Eternal Life; "Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1.They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23).2. They will be united eternally with their righteous family members and will be able to have eternal increase. 3. They will receive a fulness of joy.  4. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20)."

 

For those that don't know, the 13th Article of Faith states; "...we follow the admonition of Paul-We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."

 

James Faust; "I witness from the depths of my soul that we are engaged in His holy work, to which, if we are faithful, we can be crowned with honor, glory, and eternal life. (See D&C 75:5.)"

D&C 75; " 5 And thus, if ye are faithful ye shall be laden with many ^asheaves, and ^bcrowned with honor, and glory, and immortality, and eternal life."

 

Now I am more confused with your understanding - Are you saying that it is a lie - the Book of Mormon is wrong is teaching the doctrine of the condescension of G-d?

[Traveler]

Now I am more confused with your understanding - Are you saying that it is a lie - the Book of Mormon is wrong is teaching the doctrine of the condescension of G-d?  That there was a sacrifice? or giving up?

 

[Seminarysnoozer]

Now I am more confused with your understanding - Are you saying that it is a lie - the Book of Mormon is wrong is teaching the doctrine of the condescension of G-d?

Sorry, I am not following how you are arriving at this statement, you are going to have to give me more to respond.  What specifically are you refering to?  There is the condescension of God and the condescension of Christ.  Which one are you talking about?

[Traveler]

Sorry, I am not following how you are arriving at this statement, you are going to have to give me more to respond.  What specifically are you refering to?  There is the condescension of God and the condescension of Christ.  Which one are you talking about?

 

Is it actually condescending if in the end (meaning that actual purpose) was to increase one's glory?   How can G-d say it is his work and glory to bring immorality and eternal life to others - if in the end there is no cost but rather a great return on such an investment.

 

But lets look at this from a different angle.  Is it possible that Lucifer is not so stupid realizing that there was a greater increase in personal glory to not center on bringing immorality and eternal life to others?  That something is eternally lost or given up in such a sacrifice?  Or is G-d's sacrifice like the missionary that served because his father promised him lots of $$$$$ and a brand new car when he returned?  And who is to say what is the reason a missionary serves if they get lots of $$$$$ and a brand new care (as previously promised) upon return from their mission.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Is it actually condescending if in the end (meaning that actual purpose) was to increase one's glory?   How can G-d say it is his work and glory to bring immorality and eternal life to others - if in the end there is no cost but rather a great return on such an investment.

 

But lets look at this from a different angle.  Is it possible that Lucifer is not so stupid realizing that there was a greater increase in personal glory to not center on bringing immorality and eternal life to others?  That something is eternally lost or given up in such a sacrifice?  Or is G-d's sacrifice like the missionary that served because his father promised him lots of $$$$$ and a brand new car when he returned?  And who is to say what is the reason a missionary serves if they get lots of $$$$$ and a brand new care (as previously promised) upon return from their mission.

I think it is as simple as saying there is glory in serving others, in being charitable and benevolent.  If that is the center of glory then it makes sense that the greatest commandments are; "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy ^aheart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself."

 

I think the other thing to keep in mind is that glory is happiness.  "Men are, that they might have joy", whereas, Satan is miserable and "he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself." 2 Nephi 2

 

The plan of happiness, which includes Christ' sacrifice was for the purpose of bringing about happiness, the greatest of which occurs with Eternal life, the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom.  This is why it is called the plan of Happiness. Eternal life is a state of being where one can be glorified by the accomplishments of another. That can only happen when one loves that person as their self.  It is the same reason for which I get more excited about my own son getting an A in class over another boy getting an A in that class. The level of joy from that act comes from the attachment I have to my son, the love I have for my son. Happiness comes from serving others such that the love for that person increases to the point of treating that person as self and they the same for you, then their successes becomes yours and yours theirs. This makes joy endless.  If success is proprietary then it has an end.  To make it shared one has to serve, be charitable and benevolent to the highest degree. That is the glory of God.

[Traveler]

I think it is as simple as saying there is glory in serving others, in being charitable and benevolent.  If that is the center of glory then it makes sense that the greatest commandments are; "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy ^aheart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself."

 

I think the other thing to keep in mind is that glory is happiness.  "Men are, that they might have joy", whereas, Satan is miserable and "he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself." 2 Nephi 2

 

The plan of happiness, which includes Christ' sacrifice was for the purpose of bringing about happiness, the greatest of which occurs with Eternal life, the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom.  This is why it is called the plan of Happiness. Eternal life is a state of being where one can be glorified by the accomplishments of another. That can only happen when one loves that person as their self.  It is the same reason for which I get more excited about my own son getting an A in class over another boy getting an A in that class. The level of joy from that act comes from the attachment I have to my son, the love I have for my son. Happiness comes from serving others such that the love for that person increases to the point of treating that person as self and they the same for you, then their successes becomes yours and yours theirs. This makes joy endless.  If success is proprietary then it has an end.  To make it shared one has to serve, be charitable and benevolent to the highest degree. That is the glory of God.

 

I agree that there is divine glory in service.  But service for glory is not divine service - true service can only be for the glory of others.  Serving for self glory is the temptation that turned Lucifer to Satan.  For this reason I personally will not serve if tempted with my glory - I am really strong and a good Mormon and I can resist anything but temptation - but you can pursue what ever is most important for you - I just do not do well with that kind of thinking. 

 

Thanks - but not thanks

[Seminarysnoozer]

I agree that there is divine glory in service.  But service for glory is not divine service - true service can only be for the glory of others.  Serving for self glory is the temptation that turned Lucifer to Satan.  For this reason I personally will not serve if tempted with my glory - I am really strong and a good Mormon and I can resist anything but temptation - but you can pursue what ever is most important for you - I just do not do well with that kind of thinking. 

 

Thanks - but not thanks

You are making it sound like it is impossible to say, "I want glory to glorify my Father by receiving glory".  What other way could we glorify our Father in heaven?  Service is the means to an end, to help others glorify their self and to help us become glorified.  In doing that the Father is glorified.  Anything we can do to bring about the Eternal Life and immortality of man is glorifying the Father, meaning by me receiving a Kingdom of glory, I glorify the Father.

 

I am not sure why you want to take the purpose out of this life, it is for glory.  Did we not want to be like our Heavenly Father from the beginning?  Do we not want eternal life, which is a state of glory? 

 

What came first the chicken or the egg?  The desire to become like our Heavenly Father came first.  To become like Him, we serve others as that is what He does.  The glory of others is our glory.  Those things cannot be separated.  If one brings but one soul to God, how great shall be their joy (glory).  If I am Christlike then when my fellow brothers and sisters are served well and gain glory then so do I, through their success.  They cannot be separated as much as you would like it to be.

 

Purpose = attitude = desires of the heart, which is everything.  We will be judged based in the desires of our heart.  Desires become purpose when the desire is put into action.  The gospel is a means to an end, the end is to become like God, full of glory.  If one follows the commandments without purpose then there is no desire of the heart and therefore one cannot have an eye single to the glory of God.

 

The bottom line is that if you desire to be like God, then without question or dancing around semantics, you desire glory.  You can't have one without the other.  Now, if you do not want to be like God, then you can serve without purpose.  If one serves without purpose then, by definition, they are not doing it with an eye single to the glory of God.  Once one understands the nature of Celestial beings, even to the small degree possible while in this life, one realizes that Gods glory cannot exist in a vacuum. God is glorious because He helps others become like Him.  It is a glorious event to become like God, glorious for God (as we are told that is His work and glory) and the one becoming like Him.

 

 

Listen to the words of Jesus Christ; "5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them."

 

He is praying, 'I did the work you sent me to do, now glorify thou me by the glory I have given you'.   Christ understood His purpose and the result of the service He gave.

 

And He wants the same for us (believers); " 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"

 

 

How silly it would be if I asked my daughters to remain worthy of temple marriage so you can have an eternal family and they said, "okay, I will do it because you asked me to but I really don't want it for myself".   Then I would say, "you can't have an eternal marriage unless you want it."   ... same thing applies to Eternal Life (receiving the highest glory), it has to be desired. When we serve with an "eye single to the glory of God" we express desire to have it for ourselves, as Christ said "that they may be one, even as we are one."

 

If one does not want to be glorified in the Celestial Kingdom (does not want to receive glory) then can they really serve with "an eye single to the glory of God"?

 

Should we want glory?  Lets see what Christ says about that; "45 ¶Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:

 46 Who, when he had found one ^apearl of great price, went and sold ^ball that he had, and bought it."

We should want it so bad that we give up everything for it. (The Kingdom of heaven is a kingdom of glory)

[skalenfehl]

Jacob beheld a ladder going to heaven. Angels went up and own this ladder. There are many rungs to this ladder, which represent our progress (or retrogress). In order to ascend, we must descend. Adam "fell" that we might be. Adam descended symbolically and literally. Jesus Christ descended below us all (D&C 122:8) and by virtue of descending all the way to the bottom, He ascended straight to the top. We cannot do this on our own. Through His atonement, we may "rise" or climb by virtue of His mercy (receive baptism of fire, receive calling and election, etc). There is a book called Isaiah Decoded by Avraham Gileadi, which beautifully explains the symbolism of this "ladder."

 

The book of Isaiah was written to warn the Israelites that they would "fall" or be conquered if they didn't repent so that they could "rise." The history of Israel's conquest by Assyria is a type, even an allegory of the gentile nation (USA), which will also "fall" to an end time Assyria (and Babylon) because the US will reject the Lord. Babylon is alive and well in the US and in Mormondom. All that remains is for American to be swept off by the desolating scourge prophecied of by Isaiah and Joseph Smith throughout D&C. But But now I'm straying off on somewhat of a tangent. Some examples of "condescension" symbolically would be the process of a caterpillar turning into a butterfly or a tree losing all it's leaves and enduring a season (Winter) before being reborn (Spring growth/newness). Everything in nature and in the universe experiences these stages of condescension and ascension. It's quite beautiful.

[Traveler]

You are making it sound like it is impossible to say, "I want glory to glorify my Father by receiving glory".  What other way could we glorify our Father in heaven?  Service is the means to an end, to help others glorify their self and to help us become glorified.  In doing that the Father is glorified.  Anything we can do to bring about the Eternal Life and immortality of man is glorifying the Father, meaning by me receiving a Kingdom of glory, I glorify the Father.

 

....

 

Perhaps it is my upbringing - but service for any selfish reason is not my understanding of service.   I am not saying that hard work is not worthy of payment - just that hard work for pay to me has always been responsibility and a job - service however, is very different - if you get paid it is not a service.  If you do it for fee (not for glory) then it is a service.  Thus I was taught that when I go to work I ought to give value to my payment - but I was also taught to do extra as a service - not to get paid more.

 

In fact I caused quite a stir within a company I once worked for when I was called into the office of one of the vice president's and offered a new position in the company that would also increase my pay by a large %.   I turned it down and explained that I was trying to figure out how to spend more time with my family and less time at work.  This was a surprise because I was spending 60 hours a week at work and only being paid for 40 hours.  The vice president asked why I worked so hard when I did not want more responsibility.  I answered that I wanted the company, our customers, and my coworkers to succeed and I felt that the last few projects I had worked on were in trouble and needed the extra time.  I had hoped that instead of being offered to be able to work the extra hours forever - that I would rather get some extra time off.

 

What is interesting is that particular VP ended up joining the LDS church - and then some years later he was fired - which under the circumstances convinced me to  look for work elsewhere.  But the company that once controlled almost 90% of the marked share is now not even considered a player in the automation field.  I was sure that that the reason for the company failure??? - was that the company management became consumed by their own glory.

 

Even with G-d - I believe it is not about glory - it is about sacrifice for a greater purpose than self.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Perhaps it is my upbringing - but service for any selfish reason is not my understanding of service.   I am not saying that hard work is not worthy of payment - just that hard work for pay to me has always been responsibility and a job - service however, is very different - if you get paid it is not a service.  If you do it for fee (not for glory) then it is a service.  Thus I was taught that when I go to work I ought to give value to my payment - but I was also taught to do extra as a service - not to get paid more.

 

In fact I caused quite a stir within a company I once worked for when I was called into the office of one of the vice president's and offered a new position in the company that would also increase my pay by a large %.   I turned it down and explained that I was trying to figure out how to spend more time with my family and less time at work.  This was a surprise because I was spending 60 hours a week at work and only being paid for 40 hours.  The vice president asked why I worked so hard when I did not want more responsibility.  I answered that I wanted the company, our customers, and my coworkers to succeed and I felt that the last few projects I had worked on were in trouble and needed the extra time.  I had hoped that instead of being offered to be able to work the extra hours forever - that I would rather get some extra time off.

 

What is interesting is that particular VP ended up joining the LDS church - and then some years later he was fired - which under the circumstances convinced me to  look for work elsewhere.  But the company that once controlled almost 90% of the marked share is now not even considered a player in the automation field.  I was sure that that the reason for the company failure??? - was that the company management became consumed by their own glory.

 

Even with G-d - I believe it is not about glory - it is about sacrifice for a greater purpose than self.

Glory of the world is different than the glory we are talking about.  Maybe that is what is holding you up about this.  "Glory", in this sense, is not praise or something worn on one's sleeve or money etc.  Glory is happiness.

Insert the word "happiness" or "joy" for the word glory and then ask yourself if you would still say the same things about the motivations.

 

God's glory is the bringing about glory for others.   God's happiness is in the bringing about happiness for others. 

 

I am happy when I am in the service of others, I increase my glory when I am in the service of others. 

 

Men are that they might have joy.  How is the joy obtained? By serving God.  The goal is not service, that is the means to the end which is pure joy and happiness. 

 

Why can it not be for you that "greater purpose than self" = glory?  Glory is the greater purpose than self. 

 

Nobody can have glory of and by their self, not even God. God's glory is dependent on a purpose greater than self, alone.  Of course the God that we worship is not alone. 

[Traveler]

Glory of the world is different than the glory we are talking about.  Maybe that is what is holding you up about this.  "Glory", in this sense, is not praise or something worn on one's sleeve or money etc.  Glory is happiness.

Insert the word "happiness" or "joy" for the word glory and then ask yourself if you would still say the same things about the motivations.

 

God's glory is the bringing about glory for others.   God's happiness is in the bringing about happiness for others. 

 

I am happy when I am in the service of others, I increase my glory when I am in the service of others. 

 

Men are that they might have joy.  How is the joy obtained? By serving God.  The goal is not service, that is the means to the end which is pure joy and happiness. 

 

Why can it not be for you that "greater purpose than self" = glory?  Glory is the greater purpose than self. 

 

Nobody can have glory of and by their self, not even God. God's glory is dependent on a purpose greater than self, alone.  Of course the God that we worship is not alone. 

 

I will admit that at times service has been fun and enjoyable - but not always.  A good example is the time I served in the military.  It was not fun or a time of happiness for me - though I made every effort to be happy and joyful but on more than one occasion if there had not been for divine intervention it is likely that I would have perished - some of my closest friends made during that time did perish.   The experience left we somewhat broken.  But if the circumstances were the same I would do it again.  I see nothing in my experience of that which you describe as glory.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I will admit that at times service has been fun and enjoyable - but not always.  A good example is the time I served in the military.  It was not fun or a time of happiness for me - though I made every effort to be happy and joyful but on more than one occasion if there had not been for divine intervention it is likely that I would have perished - some of my closest friends made during that time did perish.   The experience left we somewhat broken.  But if the circumstances were the same I would do it again.  I see nothing in my experience of that which you describe as glory.

The reward of glory is in heaven, not necesarily here. Here we are to endure to the end so that we might, in the end, taste of the fruit.

 

Sometimes our efforts in this life are to carry out, or allow for the wrath of God and His purposes but in this there is glory; Alma 14; "10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.

 11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

 12 Now Amulek said unto Alma: Behold, perhaps they will burn us also.

 13 And Alma said: Be it according to the will of the Lord. But, behold, our work is not finished; therefore they burn us not."

[Traveler]

The reward of glory is in heaven, not necesarily here. Here we are to endure to the end so that we might, in the end, taste of the fruit.

 

Sometimes our efforts in this life are to carry out, or allow for the wrath of God and His purposes but in this there is glory; Alma 14; "10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.

 11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

 12 Now Amulek said unto Alma: Behold, perhaps they will burn us also.

 13 And Alma said: Be it according to the will of the Lord. But, behold, our work is not finished; therefore they burn us not."

 

Somehow we are not communicating.  So do you honestly believe that because of what I had to endure (sacrifice) serving in the military in a time of war and that you did not - that in eternity I get more and greater blessings than you can ever achieve - that there will always be greater blessings (glory) for those that gave greater sacrifice?  If you believe such a thing how can you believe that you with Christ will inherit all the Father has - when you have not sacrificed any where near what Christ sacrificed.  There is either greater glory for greater sacrifice or there is not greater glory but rather sacrifice is a honest and actual sacrifice that others may have greater glory - not the one making the sacrifice.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Somehow we are not communicating.  So do you honestly believe that because of what I had to endure (sacrifice) serving in the military in a time of war and that you did not - that in eternity I get more and greater blessings than you can ever achieve - that there will always be greater blessings (glory) for those that gave greater sacrifice?  If you believe such a thing how can you believe that you with Christ will inherit all the Father has - when you have not sacrificed any where near what Christ sacrificed.  There is either greater glory for greater sacrifice or there is not greater glory but rather sacrifice is a honest and actual sacrifice that others may have greater glory - not the one making the sacrifice.

Go back in the thread, I said that makes "one greater".  In other words the comparison is to self not to another.  The sacrifice makes the person greater than where they could have been without it.  I never compared one person to another person.  I am not sure where you are getting that idea.

Where much is given much is required.  In terms of the glory given in the end, the playing field is leveled out according to God's knowledge of all the circumstances and what is given.  Those that are low shall be made high.

[Traveler]

Go back in the thread, I said that makes "one greater".  In other words the comparison is to self not to another.  The sacrifice makes the person greater than where they could have been without it.  I never compared one person to another person.  I am not sure where you are getting that idea.

Where much is given much is required.  In terms of the glory given in the end, the playing field is leveled out according to God's knowledge of all the circumstances and what is given.  Those that are low shall be made high.

I am referencing your interpretation in previous discussions that we will inherit all that G-d has -- including his greatness?  So I am confused do we inherit all that G-d has or is your interpretation conflicting with you idea that the greater the sacrifice the greater the reward?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I am referencing your interpretation in previous discussions that we will inherit all that G-d has -- including his greatness?  So I am confused do we inherit all that G-d has or is your interpretation conflicting with you idea that the greater the sacrifice the greater the reward?

Not everyone inherits all, only those that reach the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom.

 

I am not seeing any conflict.

[Traveler]

Not everyone inherits all, only those that reach the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom.

 

I am not seeing any conflict.

 

you are changing the subject - those that inherit all.  There is conflict between that and those that sacrifice more inherit more.  Which is it?

 

Obviously the righteous that sacrifice less either inherit the same as the righteous that sacrifice more or they don't - I am trying to understand what you believe and why.  You really do not see any conflict?

 

So considering those that reach the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom.  Who sacrificed as much as Jesus Christ and who inherits all or the same inheritance as Christ.

 

I submit it does not matter how much sacrifice any more than how much total tithing we offer - If someone spends 99% of their life being selfish with their money but repents and pays a small amount of tithing from what is left of what they have - they will inherit just that same as someone that pays 100% tithing for 100% of their mortal life.

 

I am sure you will not get an ounce better blessing for an additional dime of sacrifice in tithing.  But there is nothing wrong with paying extra tithing - even and especially though you will not get a thing for it.

 

But I would suggest that if you pay extra tithing thinking and expecting an extra reward - that such selfishness will cost you and such attitude exclude you from greater blessings and inheritance.

[Seminarysnoozer]

you are changing the subject - those that inherit all.  There is conflict between that and those that sacrifice more inherit more.  Which is it?

 

Obviously the righteous that sacrifice less either inherit the same as the righteous that sacrifice more or they don't - I am trying to understand what you believe and why.  You really do not see any conflict?

 

So considering those that reach the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom.  Who sacrificed as much as Jesus Christ and who inherits all or the same inheritance as Christ.

 

I submit it does not matter how much sacrifice any more than how much total tithing we offer - If someone spends 99% of their life being selfish with their money but repents and pays a small amount of tithing from what is left of what they have - they will inherit just that same as someone that pays 100% tithing for 100% of their mortal life.

 

I am sure you will not get an ounce better blessing for an additional dime of sacrifice in tithing.  But there is nothing wrong with paying extra tithing - even and especially though you will not get a thing for it.

 

But I would suggest that if you pay extra tithing thinking and expecting an extra reward - that such selfishness will cost you and such attitude exclude you from greater blessings and inheritance.

Sacrifice is the reflection of having charity or the love of Christ.

 

What does it mean to love thy Lord with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy mind?

 

When I played soccer in High School, I couldn't get enough of it.  I would wear my soccer shirts to school, I would watch soccer on TV as much as I could, I would kick the soccer ball around the house until my mother got mad, I would think about soccer all day and dream about it at night.  This is one of the few reference points I have to understand what is meant by loving something with all thy soul.  Similarly we are to love the Lord with everything, that is the greatest commandment, more important than service and sacrifice.  Of course, if we love the Lord that much we want to do everything He does, we want to follow His example, think the same way, act the same way, do the same things, have the same things ... be one with Him as He prayed we would be.  The greatest commandment is to love Him and everything about Him, so much that you want His image in your countenance - i.e - you want to be exactly like Him.

 

The second commandment is to love thy neighbor as thyself.   There is a reason those are numbered one and two. For some reason you want to put the second before the first. 

 

If one loves the Lord to that degree and loves their neighbor as thy self then they will be doing what the Lord did and therefore inherit the same thing the Lord does. By giving all of one's heart, mind and soul, one receives all.  Everyone is given a different "all" during this probationary period.  The Lord knows the differences and makes those judgements. If one finds their self in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom then they have met the requirement of loving the Lord with all their heart mind and soul and they love their neighbor as their self. Anything less than "all" of one's heart, mind and soul, is so rewarded.  So, if one is not to that level of giving all of their heart, mind and soul then any additional charity will be so rewarded.

[Traveler]

Sacrifice is the reflection of having charity or the love of Christ.

 

What does it mean to love thy Lord with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy mind?

 

When I played soccer in High School, I couldn't get enough of it.  I would wear my soccer shirts to school, I would watch soccer on TV as much as I could, I would kick the soccer ball around the house until my mother got mad, I would think about soccer all day and dream about it at night.  This is one of the few reference points I have to understand what is meant by loving something with all thy soul.  Similarly we are to love the Lord with everything, that is the greatest commandment, more important than service and sacrifice.  Of course, if we love the Lord that much we want to do everything He does, we want to follow His example, think the same way, act the same way, do the same things, have the same things ... be one with Him as He prayed we would be.  The greatest commandment is to love Him and everything about Him, so much that you want His image in your countenance - i.e - you want to be exactly like Him.

 

The second commandment is to love thy neighbor as thyself.   There is a reason those are numbered one and two. For some reason you want to put the second before the first. 

 

If one loves the Lord to that degree and loves their neighbor as thy self then they will be doing what the Lord did and therefore inherit the same thing the Lord does. By giving all of one's heart, mind and soul, one receives all.  Everyone is given a different "all" during this probationary period.  The Lord knows the differences and makes those judgements. If one finds their self in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom then they have met the requirement of loving the Lord with all their heart mind and soul and they love their neighbor as their self. Anything less than "all" of one's heart, mind and soul, is so rewarded.  So, if one is not to that level of giving all of their heart, mind and soul then any additional charity will be so rewarded.

You did not answer the question you asked - what does it mean for a fallen mortal to love G-d with all their heart?

 

A great deal of scripture is symbolic and metaphor.  I believe you are trying to define literally what is given symbolic in metaphor in "love G-d with all your heart, might, mind and strength."    However you slice the pie of sacrifice, I personally think you are creating a great error thinking in any shape or form - that giving all your love - is a sacrifice of equal value, importance use or personal effort compared to the sacrifice of Christ.  Frankly I am disappointed at the attempt to "spin" an answer and feel I must be careful in any response from appearing condescending or cruel in trying to honestly answer to something that logically eludes any reason to me and resembles something quite blasphemous in the least consideration. 

[Seminarysnoozer]

You did not answer the question you asked - what does it mean for a fallen mortal to love G-d with all their heart?

 

A great deal of scripture is symbolic and metaphor.  I believe you are trying to define literally what is given symbolic in metaphor in "love G-d with all your heart, might, mind and strength."    However you slice the pie of sacrifice, I personally think you are creating a great error thinking in any shape or form - that giving all your love - is a sacrifice of equal value, importance use or personal effort compared to the sacrifice of Christ.  Frankly I am disappointed at the attempt to "spin" an answer and feel I must be careful in any response from appearing condescending or cruel in trying to honestly answer to something that logically eludes any reason to me and resembles something quite blasphemous in the least consideration. 

I do not think it equal.  I never said I do.  I am not sure why you think I said it.

 

That is what we should marvel over, that a soul so lowly as mine should receive such a blessing.  This is what we are in awe with, the fact that, we, can receive something that we didn't pay for.  This is why we use the words, grace, gift, inheritance etc. instead of earn, achieve or create. 

 

 

Why is this on the verge of blasphemous?;

1. . I stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me,
   Confused at the grace that so fully he proffers me.
   I tremble to know that for me he was crucified,
   That for me, a sinner, he suffered, he bled and died.
2. (Chorus)
   Oh, it is wonderful that he should care for me
   Enough to die for me!
   Oh, it is wonderful, wonderful to me!
3. 2. I marvel that he would descend from his throne divine
   To rescue a soul so rebellious and proud as mine,
   That he should extend his great love unto such as I,
   Sufficient to own, to redeem, and to justify.

 

If I am barking up the wrong tree, it is not because I am trying to, maybe rephrase the question (if you wish).