Garden of Eden as an allegory, historicity of Adam

[Traveler]

Why isn't your concern about justice cleared up with the idea that through Christ we are all protected from the effects of the Fall until the age of accountability?  Then as we start to make choices with accountability we fall spiritually - correlating with sin.

 

Christ covers the demand for justice.  Now we are beholden to Him and must obey the gospel.  Through the light of Christ, that we are all born with, we have a "life-support" connection, so-to-speak, that withholds effects from the spiritual death or separation.

 

How much understanding do you propose we have before justice can be applied?  I don't think it has to be a full understanding.  If a person murders another for the first time, do they really understand what is in store for them after commiting such a crime?   I think we had a pretty good idea about the consequences of our choice in Heaven with the First estate test.  And because of that understanding, I think this is why it drew away a third of the host of Heaven, that wasn't an easy choice.   But all of us here made that choice.  The choice was made having faith that Christ would keep us from the effects of the Fall if we followed Him.  We knew He had our back.

 

I think you read into the spiritual fall more than I do.  I do not look at the spiritual fall that you are speaking of, just the separation from God as a description of character.  A spiritual fall in which sin is commited is certainly a description of character but the simple separation from God that was necessary to move forward in the plan of salvation is a step forward not backward.  It is described as a step downward but forward.  I think you are looking at the downward part too much and neglecting the forward aspects of the move.  All in all, the spiritual fall as it pertains to leaving the presence of God to come here to mortality is a forward motion as opposed to the static position we would have been in if we didn't do it.   This is a temporary state and we all looked at this life as a temporary condition, not permanent.  

 

I would liken mortality to taking a final exam where all the books are closed, the chalk board is erased and you can't talk to your classmates.  If you want to pass the class you have to take the final exam.  The person isn't a different person just because all the resources have been taken away but she would certainly be limited.  The limitation is only temporary though.  The testing condition doesn't represent how it will be after the test as all the books will be open and everything available again.  The change is a situational change.  Now, if someone cheats on the test or doesn't give a good effort in taking the test, then it counts as a change in character that will remain.

 

A lot of the test is also a test of capacity - ones capacity for faith and charity.  If I want to join the marines and am asked to climb to the top of a 20 foot rope, I probably won't make it.  Not necessarily because I don't want to, I may not be capable of such a thing.  Then, I am not going to be accepted into the marines. Or I might be asked to sit in the cold water as long as I can before hypothermia sets in.  In that way there is a screening of those that have both the physical as well as the mental stamina needed for the job.

 

Likewise, some of the challenges we face in this life are a test of capacity (i.e - valiant), not so much a choice between A and B.  How much faith can we show, how much charity can we show.  Some will reveal their spiritual weakness in these areas even despite trying.  That sounds harsh but our spiritual make up is at varied levels when we start and we all to some degree will reveal the extent of our capabilities falling short in some areas. That is okay because that is the test. ... everyone gets hypothermia eventually when sitting in 62 degree water.  Just like all of us sin while here (and accountable).  But luckily it is not an all or nothing test, it is a test of capability, just like the first estate test involved those that were more valiant than others.  Just because the test involves all of us falling short of perfection does not make it a permanently downward action any more than the marine sitting in 62 degree water for hours before he gets hypothermia is a flaw in character.   God allowed us to proceed with this step even though He knew that only Christ would do it with perfection.

 

Agreeing to take the test alone could not cause a spiritual fall if it is really a necessary step towards becoming like God.  Did Christ increase or decrease in stature by coming to Earth?

 

In response to your statement of a spirit must fall to inhabit a mortal body - do you not believe in the statement that we can be in the world without being of the world?  The contrast between the two is what creates the test.  If they were the same then there would be no influence one way or the other, it would just be.  There is an internal struggle because there is a contrast between things spiritual and things carnal. If there was no difference between the two then the test we face now would be no different than the first estate test.  Why would we repeat the first estate test?

In this life I believe we have fallen spiritually and need a redeemer.  I do not believe any child regardless of how clean and pure you think them to be at birth can redeem themselves – even if they should die one second later having never committed sin.  Because we all are fallen it is only by the atonement of Christ that anyone is saved.  Children included.

 

I love you attitude that children are saved.  But I believe that without the experience of a spiritual fall that even little children will not know the good from the evil.  Because they experience a spiritual fall (spiritual death) they come to know evil.  That they are redeemed by Christ they also know the good.  Thus we all know the good from the evil. 

 

I do not see earth life as the final test.  But rather as an opportunity to have a physical body – an experience that is very good.  But this probation is all about the experiencing of a spiritual fall.  The great part is that we experience this fall we do not have knowledge – only faith.  Because we do not have knowledge we can repent of our choices.  Because Jesus atones for our sins we can choose to repent and be rid of sins.  In this life we only live by faith and thus our repentance is not complete until what is called the final judgment.  Since at the final judgment we will have knowledge; including the knowledge of good and evil we can choose our course in eternity – not by faith but by knowledge.  So we get to experiment all we want with good and evil.  My personal experience with evil, so far, is not pleasant and my plan is to admit all my sins that I can remember and beg for forgiveness of them.  (Some sins I have forgotten or do not remember so well – I think that is why we get married.  So our partners will help us remember.)

[Seminarysnoozer]

In this life I believe we have fallen spiritually and need a redeemer.  I do not believe any child regardless of how clean and pure you think them to be at birth can redeem themselves – even if they should die one second later having never committed sin.  Because we all are fallen it is only by the atonement of Christ that anyone is saved.  Children included.

 

I love you attitude that children are saved.  But I believe that without the experience of a spiritual fall that even little children will not know the good from the evil.  Because they experience a spiritual fall (spiritual death) they come to know evil.  That they are redeemed by Christ they also know the good.  Thus we all know the good from the evil. 

 

I do not see earth life as the final test.  But rather as an opportunity to have a physical body – an experience that is very good.  But this probation is all about the experiencing of a spiritual fall.  The great part is that we experience this fall we do not have knowledge – only faith.  Because we do not have knowledge we can repent of our choices.  Because Jesus atones for our sins we can choose to repent and be rid of sins.  In this life we only live by faith and thus our repentance is not complete until what is called the final judgment.  Since at the final judgment we will have knowledge; including the knowledge of good and evil we can choose our course in eternity – not by faith but by knowledge.  So we get to experiment all we want with good and evil.  My personal experience with evil, so far, is not pleasant and my plan is to admit all my sins that I can remember and beg for forgiveness of them.  (Some sins I have forgotten or do not remember so well – I think that is why we get married.  So our partners will help us remember.)

Maybe I am overineterpreting what you are saying.  What exactly does it mean to you that a child who dies before the age of 8 experiences a spiritual fall?  What do they experience?  Especially in the thing that we both agree, they need Christ' atonement.  They are protected from the effects of the Fall by Christ' atonement, so what exactly do they experience by this spiritual fall?

 

I flew to Florida one time with my family from San Diego.  We stopped in Houston but didnt have to leave the airport on the way over.  So, technically, I can say that we have been to Houston but we really never left the airport, so we really didn't "experience" Houston.   Is that similar to what you mean by children under the age of 8 experiencing a spiritual fall?

 

In a similar light it would be important to determine what it means for children to be protected from the effects of the Fall via Christ' atonement?  How are they protected?  Can they experience it without being affected by it?  I think that is the issue.  Again, I ask what you think it means to be in the world but not of the world?  Isn't that possible?  We can be here without being draged down by it or take in it's characteristics.  So, how are children affected by the spiritual fall?   Is it a gain or a loss?  The word "fall" and combining it with spiritual makes it seem that they have fallen in stature in the eyes of God.  I would say that children, even when they experience a spiritual fall, are not lowered in stature in the eyes of God but that God is proud of the step forward they have taken.  I think spiritual "fall" is a deceptive term in that sense in that it seems like a person has taken steps backward in their development when we know it is the opposite, it is a step forward.

 

So, what exactly is taken with a child after they die before the age of 8 that one can say there was a change in that individuals spiritual make up?  If you want to say it is experience, then what exactly did they experience?  If the child dies one hour after birth, what did that child experience from this world specifically?  Please, try to be specific so I understand what you mean by experiencing a spiritual fall.  Tell me what that one hour old experienced.

[Traveler]

Maybe I am overineterpreting what you are saying.  What exactly does it mean to you that a child who dies before the age of 8 experiences a spiritual fall?  What do they experience?  Especially in the thing that we both agree, they need Christ' atonement.  They are protected from the effects of the Fall by Christ' atonement, so what exactly do they experience by this spiritual fall?

 

I flew to Florida one time with my family from San Diego.  We stopped in Houston but didnt have to leave the airport on the way over.  So, technically, I can say that we have been to Houston but we really never left the airport, so we really didn't "experience" Houston.   Is that similar to what you mean by children under the age of 8 experiencing a spiritual fall?

 

In a similar light it would be important to determine what it means for children to be protected from the effects of the Fall via Christ' atonement?  How are they protected?  Can they experience it without being affected by it?  I think that is the issue.  Again, I ask what you think it means to be in the world but not of the world?  Isn't that possible?  We can be here without being draged down by it or take in it's characteristics.  So, how are children affected by the spiritual fall?   Is it a gain or a loss?  The word "fall" and combining it with spiritual makes it seem that they have fallen in stature in the eyes of God.  I would say that children, even when they experience a spiritual fall, are not lowered in stature in the eyes of God but that God is proud of the step forward they have taken.  I think spiritual "fall" is a deceptive term in that sense in that it seems like a person has taken steps backward in their development when we know it is the opposite, it is a step forward.

 

So, what exactly is taken with a child after they die before the age of 8 that one can say there was a change in that individuals spiritual make up?  If you want to say it is experience, then what exactly did they experience?  If the child dies one hour after birth, what did that child experience from this world specifically?  Please, try to be specific so I understand what you mean by experiencing a spiritual fall.  Tell me what that one hour old experienced.

 

I have thought long and hard on this subject of children, justice and the atonement.  Thus considering, pondering and seeking answers has brought me to the conclusion that all the spirit offspring of the Father must have fallen with Adam and Eve and been exiled from the Father.  Justice requires that all must “taste” of evil (as well as good which is the mercy of G-d) in order to have knowledge of good and evil.  What we learn by the great sacrifice of Christ in the atonement, is that it is not necessary to sin to “taste” of evil.  But in order to have evil affect us (that we gain knowledge) we must be separated from the Father because evil and the effects of evil cannot occur in the presents of the Father.

 

Through the fall we all come to the knowledge of evil by experiencing firsthand the power to destroy and bring down into misery even those that do not sin, even Christ in Gethsemane that gave himself in sacrifice that brought down not just spiritually but to a physical death as well even though he never sinned and had power to never die; so he also became perfect through the knowledge of good and evil.

 

Just because we do not have all or even certain sins to repent of – since we are fallen those sins bring about sorrow unto death for us all; not just children, we are still affected as fallen souls by the sins of others as well as ourselves and we have no means to deliver ourselves from this fall even if we have not sinned.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I have thought long and hard on this subject of children, justice and the atonement.  Thus considering, pondering and seeking answers has brought me to the conclusion that all the spirit offspring of the Father must have fallen with Adam and Eve and been exiled from the Father.  Justice requires that all must “taste” of evil (as well as good which is the mercy of G-d) in order to have knowledge of good and evil.  What we learn by the great sacrifice of Christ in the atonement, is that it is not necessary to sin to “taste” of evil.  But in order to have evil affect us (that we gain knowledge) we must be separated from the Father because evil and the effects of evil cannot occur in the presents of the Father.

 

Through the fall we all come to the knowledge of evil by experiencing firsthand the power to destroy and bring down into misery even those that do not sin, even Christ in Gethsemane that gave himself in sacrifice that brought down not just spiritually but to a physical death as well even though he never sinned and had power to never die; so he also became perfect through the knowledge of good and evil.

 

Just because we do not have all or even certain sins to repent of – since we are fallen those sins bring about sorrow unto death for us all; not just children, we are still affected as fallen souls by the sins of others as well as ourselves and we have no means to deliver ourselves from this fall even if we have not sinned.

I agree with most everything you are saying here but I am not seeing how a child who dies after one hour of life can "experience firsthand the power to destroy and bring down into misery".   How is that transmitted to that child "firsthand"?

 

And for Christ this was a step forward as you say "so he also became perfect through the knowledge of good and evil".  So, this experiencing "firsthand" as you say, is a step forward towards perfection for children.

 

Your discussion of having no means to "deliver ourselves" is a hypothetical situation that really doesn't exist.  We all went into this life knowing that we would have a Savior.  We chose God's plan, not Lucifer's of no real savior do-it-yourself style.  We do have a means and it is explained to us as being "protected from the effects of the Fall" until we are accountable. That is the plan and was the plan before we decided on the plan - that was explained to us fully. We knew that children would be protected from the effects of the fall spiritually until accountable.

 

I can't agree with being affected by the sins of others as a result of the fall.  The second article of faith speaks against that idea.

[Traveler]

I agree with most everything you are saying here but I am not seeing how a child who dies after one hour of life can "experience firsthand the power to destroy and bring down into misery".   How is that transmitted to that child "firsthand"?

 

 

Because their (us all) experience of the fall has been over thousands of years - not just a unconscious moment of mortality.

 

 

And for Christ this was a step forward as you say "so he also became perfect through the knowledge of good and evil".  So, this experiencing "firsthand" as you say, is a step forward towards perfection for children.

 

 

Christ and his suffering in innocence is only a type of innocent suffering that gives us understanding that the innocent can and do suffer.

 

 

Your discussion of having no means to "deliver ourselves" is a hypothetical situation that really doesn't exist.  We all went into this life knowing that we would have a Savior.  We chose God's plan, not Lucifer's of no real savior do-it-yourself style.  We do have a means and it is explained to us as being "protected from the effects of the Fall" until we are accountable. That is the plan and was the plan before we decided on the plan - that was explained to us fully. We knew that children would be protected from the effects of the fall spiritually until accountable.

 

 

We all come into this life without knowledge.  We must live by faith.  As I have pondered this great principle of faith – I have come to believe that as we all fell and were cast out of the kingdom of the Father we did so with great faith in Christ that promised to take upon him all our sins.  Obviously some did not have faith in Christ – but they also fell and were cast out of the kingdom of the Father.  Is it not interesting how all this worked out?

 

 

I can't agree with being affected by the sins of others as a result of the fall.  The second article of faith speaks against that idea.

 

Because of the atonement of Christ we will not suffer the sins of others in eternity.  But I am quite surprised that you have not at least experienced some sorrow concerning those that have sinned at least those just within our own government?   I have experienced my self during my service in the military during the Vietnam War many sorrows and regrets, including the loss of friends in combat – all of which were not the results of our making. 

 

I am most surprised that you have never suffered anything that was not of your own making.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Because their (us all) experience of the fall has been over thousands of years - not just a unconscious moment of mortality.

 

 

Christ and his suffering in innocence is only a type of innocent suffering that gives us understanding that the innocent can and do suffer.

 

 

 

Because of the atonement of Christ we will not suffer the sins of others in eternity.  But I am quite surprised that you have not at least experienced some sorrow concerning those that have sinned at least those just within our own government?   I have experienced my self during my service in the military during the Vietnam War many sorrows and regrets, including the loss of friends in combat – all of which were not the results of our making. 

 

I am most surprised that you have never suffered anything that was not of your own making.

Suffering is not the same thing as sinning even though they are related.  Sin is required to spiritually fall.  Are you now equating suffering with spiritually falling?

 

For the benefit of others reading this; Sin = To commit sin is to willfully disobey God's commandments or to fail to act

righteously despite a knowledge of the truth.

 

Whereas "suffering" has many meanings and uses.  As explained by Robert Hales; "There are many kinds of sorrow and suffering:

• •

  Self-inflicted suffering

• •

  Suffering from infirmities of our mortal bodies and sorrow from separation by death

• •

  Suffering that tries and tests us

• •

  Suffering to develop our spiritual strength

• •

  Suffering to humble us and lead us to repentance

• •

  The Savior’s suffering and atoning sacrifice, the most important event in the history of the world."

 

The only kind of suffering that I can see a one hour old baby that dies would experience "firsthand" as you say would be possibly the suffering caused by infirmities of the body but then again, I don't remember my one hour old experience and there is no evidence that hardly anybody would be expected to remember or even really experience what happens when they are one hour old any more than they would remember what happens under the effects of anesthesia. Children are not experiencing the suffering needed to humble or lead to repentance.  In other words the suffering is not as a result of their own sin and therefore there is no spiritual fall suffered.

 

There is nothing here that says "suffering" is equated with falling spiritually.  What is described is suffering as a means to bring about joy, so not sure how that relates to a spiritual fall. John 16; "21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

 22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you."

 

The joy that results from suffering takes away the suffering and it is not remembered.

 

Sorrow is the process of refinement.  The souls of the children that die before the age of 8 need no further refinement, they are pure and clean and merit Celestial glory before the foundations of this world.   Christ needed no further refinement, this is why His act was a sacrifice, he didn't need to suffer.

 

When God "experiences" the worlds suffering from sin, when he moans over the evil in this world, does He experience a spiritual fall as a result?

[Traveler]

Suffering is not the same thing as sinning even though they are related.  Sin is required to spiritually fall.  Are you now equating suffering with spiritually falling?

 

For the benefit of others reading this; Sin = To commit sin is to willfully disobey God's commandments or to fail to act

righteously despite a knowledge of the truth.

 

Whereas "suffering" has many meanings and uses.  As explained by Robert Hales; "There are many kinds of sorrow and suffering:

• •

  Self-inflicted suffering

• •

  Suffering from infirmities of our mortal bodies and sorrow from separation by death

• •

  Suffering that tries and tests us

• •

  Suffering to develop our spiritual strength

• •

  Suffering to humble us and lead us to repentance

• •

  The Savior’s suffering and atoning sacrifice, the most important event in the history of the world."

 

The only kind of suffering that I can see a one hour old baby that dies would experience "firsthand" as you say would be possibly the suffering caused by infirmities of the body but then again, I don't remember my one hour old experience and there is no evidence that hardly anybody would be expected to remember or even really experience what happens when they are one hour old any more than they would remember what happens under the effects of anesthesia. Children are not experiencing the suffering needed to humble or lead to repentance.  In other words the suffering is not as a result of their own sin and therefore there is no spiritual fall suffered.

 

There is nothing here that says "suffering" is equated with falling spiritually.  What is described is suffering as a means to bring about joy, so not sure how that relates to a spiritual fall. John 16; "21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

 22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you."

 

The joy that results from suffering takes away the suffering and it is not remembered.

 

Sorrow is the process of refinement.  The souls of the children that die before the age of 8 need no further refinement, they are pure and clean and merit Celestial glory before the foundations of this world.   Christ needed no further refinement, this is why His act was a sacrifice, he didn't need to suffer.

 

When God "experiences" the worlds suffering from sin, when he moans over the evil in this world, does He experience a spiritual fall as a result?

 

How do children that die before the age of acountability - according to your theory - come to the knowledge (taste) of evil?  and good?

[Seminarysnoozer]

How do children that die before the age of acountability - according to your theory - come to the knowledge (taste) of evil?  and good?

It is from an intrinsic trait called charity.  Within the skill of charity there is empathy, the ability to understand another's experience without going through it their self.  I think this is why loving one's neighbor as thy self is so important.  If those spirits had that much love before coming here, they could gleen knowledge without having to experience it their self. For the rest of us that don't have that skill naturally, we have a chance to improve it and learn it while in mortality. You and I, obviously, by way of the struggles we face, probably didn't have that amount of charitable skill naturally and so we are here in this perspective having a hard time understanding how a person could learn something without going through the experience their self.

 

One of Satan's deceptions in the garden of Eden was to tell Eve that the day she eats of the tree she will know of good and evil and be like God with that knowledge.  That was a lie.  She didn't obtain all knowledge of good and evil the day the fruit was eaten.  It was simply a doorway by which there became the possibility of knowing good and evil.  The process of knowing good and evil is one that starts with mortality and continues on until all things are learned.  The experience of mortality is but a context from which we can appreciate and formulate the moral values of good and evil.  Apparently there are some spirits that are naturals at such a thing, they "got it" before coming here.  Their knowledge is put into a context by receiving a body.

Not everybody falls when riding a bike for the first time, for example. One doesn't have to become evil to have knowledge of good and evil.  One doesn't have to experience the depths of despair to suffer with those that suffer. 

One human characteristic that I think is a trait of the spirit that is amplified by the body is empathy and when done in a loving way is charity.  I think there are spirits who naturally have an abundance of charity as part of their spiritual make up before coming here and in so have the abililty to understand the experiences of others without actually going through it their self. These are the spirits that don't need a test of faith, love and charity - they already have it.

 

In other words, they come to that knowledge the same way that all of us do that actually get the knowledge, by having faith in Christ, keeping ourselves clean and away from evil and having charity (empathy) to the point of loving others as one self.  With those skills, over the course of eons after this life the knowledge is obtained if one is accepted into the program where that knowledge is available, the Celestial Kingdom.  We get a glimpse of it while here but the real learning occurs after, when we have a context to place that knowledge.  If one believes that all the learning about good and evil occurs in mortality or at least a good portion of it, I think that is very short sighted as to how much knowledge there is to obtain.  It can't be done in a mortal lifetime anyways, so the kid that dies before the age of 8 is not a whole lot behind as far as experiential knowledge goes.

 

The purpose of this life is to receive a body of flesh and bones and to be tested.  The universal purpose of this life is not to gain knowledge of good and evil, I think that is a misconception of the plan of salvation.  Mortality opens the door for understanding good and evil but is not the thing that necessarily needs to occur during mortality.  All that has to happen is getting a body and passing the test.

[Traveler]

It is from an intrinsic trait called charity.  Within the skill of charity there is empathy, the ability to understand another's experience without going through it their self.  I think this is why loving one's neighbor as thy self is so important.  If those spirits had that much love before coming here, they could gleen knowledge without having to experience it their self. For the rest of us that don't have that skill naturally, we have a chance to improve it and learn it while in mortality. You and I, obviously, by way of the struggles we face, probably didn't have that amount of charitable skill naturally and so we are here in this perspective having a hard time understanding how a person could learn something without going through the experience their self.

 

One of Satan's deceptions in the garden of Eden was to tell Eve that the day she eats of the tree she will know of good and evil and be like God with that knowledge.  That was a lie.  She didn't obtain all knowledge of good and evil the day the fruit was eaten.  It was simply a doorway by which there became the possibility of knowing good and evil.  The process of knowing good and evil is one that starts with mortality and continues on until all things are learned.  The experience of mortality is but a context from which we can appreciate and formulate the moral values of good and evil.  Apparently there are some spirits that are naturals at such a thing, they "got it" before coming here.  Their knowledge is put into a context by receiving a body.

Not everybody falls when riding a bike for the first time, for example. One doesn't have to become evil to have knowledge of good and evil.  One doesn't have to experience the depths of despair to suffer with those that suffer. 

One human characteristic that I think is a trait of the spirit that is amplified by the body is empathy and when done in a loving way is charity.  I think there are spirits who naturally have an abundance of charity as part of their spiritual make up before coming here and in so have the abililty to understand the experiences of others without actually going through it their self. These are the spirits that don't need a test of faith, love and charity - they already have it.

 

In other words, they come to that knowledge the same way that all of us do that actually get the knowledge, by having faith in Christ, keeping ourselves clean and away from evil and having charity (empathy) to the point of loving others as one self.  With those skills, over the course of eons after this life the knowledge is obtained if one is accepted into the program where that knowledge is available, the Celestial Kingdom.  We get a glimpse of it while here but the real learning occurs after, when we have a context to place that knowledge.  If one believes that all the learning about good and evil occurs in mortality or at least a good portion of it, I think that is very short sighted as to how much knowledge there is to obtain.  It can't be done in a mortal lifetime anyways, so the kid that dies before the age of 8 is not a whole lot behind as far as experiential knowledge goes.

 

The purpose of this life is to receive a body of flesh and bones and to be tested.  The universal purpose of this life is not to gain knowledge of good and evil, I think that is a misconception of the plan of salvation.  Mortality opens the door for understanding good and evil but is not the thing that necessarily needs to occur during mortality.  All that has to happen is getting a body and passing the test.

I think you have mixed up a few things.  For example - It was G-d that said that in the day someone partakes that they would die -- not Satan saying in the day they partake they would have the knowledge.

 

Because of Adam and Eve partook of the fruit, they suffer death.  If death is the consequence of partaking of the fruit – why do innocent children die?  Why do we teach that only Adam and Eve suffer for their transgressions.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think you have mixed up a few things.  For example - It was G-d that said that in the day someone partakes that they would die -- not Satan saying in the day they partake they would have the knowledge.

 

Because of Adam and Eve partook of the fruit, they suffer death.  If death is the consequence of partaking of the fruit – why do innocent children die?  Why do we teach that only Adam and Eve suffer for their transgressions.

Elder Jess Christensen Jan 2002 Ensign; "“Ye shall not surely die,” protested Lucifer, directly contradicting the word of the Lord (Moses 4:10; see also D&C 29:41–42). “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil” (Moses 4:11). Lucifer spoke a partial truth mixed with a falsehood. If Eve were to partake of the fruit, her eyes would indeed be opened “as gods” and she would begin to know good and evil; yet the notion that eating the fruit could immediately make Eve as the gods was a clever deception. The purpose of life can be fulfilled only when we have time to prepare to meet God and learn good and evil by our own experience (see Alma 12:22–26; D&C 29:39)."

 

Moses 4; "10 And the serpent said unto the woman: Ye shall not surely die;

 11 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

 

We have already gone over your second paragraph questions; Adam and Eve opened the door for us to come into mortality.  The second article of faith is to state that we are not born into sin.  One has to have accountability first and then sin to be able to be punished for any transgression or sin. Adam and Eve are the only ones that start out with a paradisiacal body.  I can only imagine what that would be like to start out with a perfect body and then have it change into a fallen body.  Luckily we don't have to experience that.  I imagine it was kind of like when I had to live in Utah for a while after living in San Diego all my life, not realizing what I had (in terms of weather).  When I came back I was more appreciative of the weather. My friends that were born and raised in Utah never seemed to complain of the weather, they never suffered by it, at least as much as I did.

 

I think you equating death with punishment is not fair.  Why not ask, why do innocent children get to return to their Heavenly Father so quickly as opposed to staying in this fallen world?  I think if you ask the question that way then you have your answer. We all have to pass through mortality to advance from our previous position, some don't need to spend much time here because they passed the previous test so well there is no need for a probationary state for them, a time to have a change of heart or perfecting of character before moving on.

 

Think of "death" as the step that is needed to grow up.  It is kind of like a young adult who finally wants to move out of the parents home and become a responsible adult.  If they really want to do that then they need to move out of the house for a while.  The young adult can't say, 'I want to be a responsible adult but I still want to live in your house'.   They don't go together.  So, when the time comes that the young adult feels ready, just like Adam and Eve's choice, they move forward and separate themselves to face these responsibilities mostly on their own but some lifelines of assistance ultimately realizing that the best way to be an "adult" is to closely appreciate and follow the example of one's parents with humilty increase their faith in the way the parents have done things.

[Traveler]

Elder Jess Christensen Jan 2002 Ensign; "“Ye shall not surely die,” protested Lucifer, directly contradicting the word of the Lord (Moses 4:10; see also D&C 29:41–42). “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil” (Moses 4:11). Lucifer spoke a partial truth mixed with a falsehood. If Eve were to partake of the fruit, her eyes would indeed be opened “as gods” and she would begin to know good and evil; yet the notion that eating the fruit could immediately make Eve as the gods was a clever deception. The purpose of life can be fulfilled only when we have time to prepare to meet God and learn good and evil by our own experience (see Alma 12:22–26; D&C 29:39)."

 

Moses 4; "10 And the serpent said unto the woman: Ye shall not surely die;

 11 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

 

We have already gone over your second paragraph questions; Adam and Eve opened the door for us to come into mortality.  The second article of faith is to state that we are not born into sin.  One has to have accountability first and then sin to be able to be punished for any transgression or sin. Adam and Eve are the only ones that start out with a paradisiacal body.  I can only imagine what that would be like to start out with a perfect body and then have it change into a fallen body.  Luckily we don't have to experience that.  I imagine it was kind of like when I had to live in Utah for a while after living in San Diego all my life, not realizing what I had (in terms of weather).  When I came back I was more appreciative of the weather. My friends that were born and raised in Utah never seemed to complain of the weather, they never suffered by it, at least as much as I did.

 

I think you equating death with punishment is not fair.  Why not ask, why do innocent children get to return to their Heavenly Father so quickly as opposed to staying in this fallen world?  I think if you ask the question that way then you have your answer. We all have to pass through mortality to advance from our previous position, some don't need to spend much time here because they passed the previous test so well there is no need for a probationary state for them, a time to have a change of heart or perfecting of character before moving on.

 

Think of "death" as the step that is needed to grow up.  It is kind of like a young adult who finally wants to move out of the parents home and become a responsible adult.  If they really want to do that then they need to move out of the house for a while.  The young adult can't say, 'I want to be a responsible adult but I still want to live in your house'.   They don't go together.  So, when the time comes that the young adult feels ready, just like Adam and Eve's choice, they move forward and separate themselves to face these responsibilities mostly on their own but some lifelines of assistance ultimately realizing that the best way to be an "adult" is to closely appreciate and follow the example of one's parents with humilty increase their faith in the way the parents have done things.

Very good - you are correct about Satan.  Thanks for the correction!!!!

 

Now lets deal with death.

 

1. Do you believe the fall includes spiritual death?  or is the punishment of death for disobedience only the experience of physical death

2. Is spiritual death a punishment for a transgression or a reward for obedience to a principle of law.

3. Are children punished in any way possible for Adam's transgression? 

 

The answer is similar to questions of quantum physics.  If we ask if matter and energy always remain constant and obey the first law of thermal dynamics – the answer is no when we consider time duration but in removing time from the equation (as a special case) and then the first law of thermal dynamics remains solid.

 

So it is with children – They suffer every punishment of Adam’s transgression when certain intervals of time are considered.  But when time is removed, as it is in eternity -- Children are not punished (the consequence of a spiritual fall and physical death) but their punishment has an end and is not eternal. 

 

If there is a test of mortality that test concerns or is, at least in part, a test of being temporarily punished because of others transgressions or rewarded from the sacrifices of others.  As I have said many times – considering the interval between birth and death – there is no justice, no mercy and all things are arbitrary.  That is because in this fallen state all things are temporal to the conditions of time duration for which they were created and therefore must have an end.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Very good - you are correct about Satan.  Thanks for the correction!!!!

 

Now lets deal with death.

 

1. Do you believe the fall includes spiritual death?  or is the punishment of death for disobedience only the experience of physical death

2. Is spiritual death a punishment for a transgression or a reward for obedience to a principle of law.

3. Are children punished in any way possible for Adam's transgression? 

 

The answer is similar to questions of quantum physics.  If we ask if matter and energy always remain constant and obey the first law of thermal dynamics – the answer is no when we consider time duration but in removing time from the equation (as a special case) and then the first law of thermal dynamics remains solid.

 

So it is with children – They suffer every punishment of Adam’s transgression when certain intervals of time are considered.  But when time is removed, as it is in eternity -- Children are not punished (the consequence of a spiritual fall and physical death) but their punishment has an end and is not eternal. 

 

If there is a test of mortality that test concerns or is, at least in part, a test of being temporarily punished because of others transgressions or rewarded from the sacrifices of others.  As I have said many times – considering the interval between birth and death – there is no justice, no mercy and all things are arbitrary.  That is because in this fallen state all things are temporal to the conditions of time duration for which they were created and therefore must have an end.

Thanks for the exchange, this is good!

 

Yes I believe the fall includes spiritual death but don't forget the words "special status". The word "protection" also comes to mind and this is not a word that I made up for this discussion, there have been several talks about the special protection of children by the leaders of the church.  "Protection" makes it so the event occurs but there is no effect from it.  So, when you ask does a child experience spiritual death the answer is yes but one has to include the issue that there is no effect from it in that they receive special protection via the atonement of Christ.  One cannot separate those things.  I don't think any of us would have wanted to enter into this situation without that protection because as you are suggesting then that would require some kind of unjust punishment situation.  I believe Christ satisfies the demands of the law in many areas, including this thing that we are discussing. With that protection, even while here, they are not being "punished" or suffer spiritually.  They may have illnesses of course that cause a physical suffering but there is no drop in spirituality or the character of their spirit by coming here. 

 

I like the way Merlin Lybbert states it in 1994; "The Lord extends special protection to children and shares jurisdiction with earthly parents, even as we enjoy their presence. They cannot sin until they reach the age of accountability, which the Lord has declared to be eight years (see D&C 18:42; D&C 29:47)."  I like how he said the Lord "shares jurisdiction" with the parents.  Later he says; "Because all children who die before the age of accountability are pure, innocent, and wholly sin-free, they are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven (see D&C 137:10; Mosiah 3:18)."  Mosiah 3:18 is interesting because, of course it is the verse right before the statement that the natural man is an enemy to God and in contrast "For behold he judgeth, and his judgment is just; and the infant perisheth not that dieth in his infancy"  In other words, despite the infant's death, she does not perish.  There is a special protection for children.  And in verse 18 it states that men drinketh in damnation to their souls - they let it in, they are not born with it, they have to take it in.

 

Is going on a mission a reward or punishment?  I have family members that have fallen away from the church during their mission and most that come back stronger.  I guess I look at spiritual death the same way.  It is a step for development that depending on what a person does during that time could either be a reward or a punishment.  It is an opportunity for advancement - advancing the evil nature or advancing the good nature.  Is taking a calling in the church a punishment or a reward?  It depends on one's attitude and whether they magnify the calling or not.  The same is with this calling to come to Earth and do what we are told.

 

The only ones that really fall spiritually are the sons of perdition, as President Kimball states they "retrogress";

“In the realms of perdition or the kingdom of darkness, where there is no light, Satan and the unembodied spirits of the pre-existence shall dwell together with those of mortality who retrogress to the level of perdition. These have lost the power of regeneration. They have sunk so low as to have lost the inclinations and ability to repent, consequently the gospel plan is useless to them as an agent of growth and development” (Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, 125)."

Meaning, for everyone else the gospel plan, including spiritual death, is an agent of growth and development.  That doesn't sound like a punishment to me.  For the sons of perdition it will be, though.