A Hierarchical Heaven.

[Traveler]

...

 

Let me ask you this, once Celestial glory is assigned, could it be that God judged in error, that a person there would later decide not to have eternal life?  That would make God an unjust God.  So, it would not be a possibility for anyone in the Celestial Kingdom to choose anything but that which they have already chosen and received.  They would be on that path permanently.

 

I do not believe that G-d "judges" us - but rather gives us agency to choose.   I do not believe our agency is diminished by becoming Celestial - I believe it is expanded - that the choices expand - they do not pass away.  Many years ago I made a covenant to live the word of wisdom.  My resolve over many years is very strong - I have no concern that any temptation may change my choice and resolve - but I would also stand against anyone that would take away my agency (choice) to live the word of wisdom.  Some would argue - as you have - that since I would not brake the WOW anyway - why not make the choice impossible?  If you understand Satan's plan - and I do not think you understand this particular part - Satan wanted to forever remove our agency or choice.  Not just to get us to the Celestial Kingdom but to end the conflict between good and evil forever by eliminating agency or choice - which is the only way such a conflict can be ended. 

 

I submit that G-d has his agency to this day and could choose to break his covenants and cease to be G-d - just because he does not - does not mean that he cannot.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Traveler

[SpiritDragon]

Great thoughts traveler and snoozer, I hope you don't mind if I butt in.

 

My take is that we may not have sufficient information to be sure either way, but here is what we do know:

 

21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.

22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory. (D&C 88)

 

Those that cannot abide the law of a Celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory. To me this can mean A ) only those who will not breach celestial law will/can receive celestial glory or B ) those who do breech celestial law (failure to abide law) will no longer enjoy celestial glory (failure to abide glory).

 

To further throw a wrench into thought processes I know that as LDS we have a tendency to believe that since no unclean can enter into the kingdom of God that there is no possibility for sin in the kingdoms of glory. This may very well be the case, however (like traveler) I am not fully convinced that the possibility does not exist. There can tend to be a little leeway in absolutes such as all or none. For instance we are taught that "all" will be saved and yet we know there are those who choose not to be and therefore won't be. The same possibility is open (at least for arguments sake) that when stating that "no" unclean can exist in the kingdom of heaven, it could be stated no unclean thing will be permitted to stay in the kingdom of heaven. This of course also opens up more possibilities. The two most obvious to me are A) those who choose to do that which is unclean are cast out, or B ) those who do that which is unclean are punished swiftly and repent to be sanctified thus not allowing uncleanliness to exist. This second option can be a little repugnant to some, but it follows the pattern given here that when we slip up we can choose to return to the ways of god or choose separation from God. It also fits neatly into the idea that after repentance and having our sins remitted they are remembered no more... kind of like it never happened (doesn't exist, didn't exist).

 

 24 And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead. (Alma 12)

 

This scripture also may open some interesting options. One that I can see has to do with the thought process that if this life is a probationary period where we have suspended judgment with time to repent and prepare to meet our maker, does this suggest that before and after this life there is no probationary state, simply swift punishment for any unlawfulness?

 

I don't know the answers, but it is food for thought (hopefully).

 

Have a great day you two.

Edited September 7, 2014 by SpiritDragon

[Traveler]

...

 

This scripture also may open some interesting options. One that I can see has to do with the thought process that if this life is a probationary period where we have suspended judgment with time to repent and prepare to meet our maker, does this suggest that before and after this life there is no probationary state, simply swift punishment for any unlawfulness?

 

I don't know the answers, but it is food for thought (hopefully).

 

Have a great day you two.

 

I would like to think this is a wonderful well thought out post - mostly because I agree with your insight and logic.   I think your considering of "suspended judgment" as brilliant!   Though I think there is much more to be considered but the idea that before and after this probationary state there is unalterable consequences is a notion I believe to be spot on.  I prefer to think of such things as consequences rather than punishment - because in essence I believe in a merciful and compassionate G-d rather than a judgmental punitive G-d. 

 

I honestly believe that G-d desires all to be in the Celestial Kingdom and that he will do all that is honest, just and merciful in his power to help us find any possible way to get there.  Therefore, exclusion is not because of G-d not wanting someone there or them failing some criteria despite their real desire not be excluded.  The only reason I can believe someone to be forced from heaven is that they cannot stand to be in such a good place – even for a moment.  Thus they are forced from heaven by their own desires.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I do not believe that G-d "judges" us - but rather gives us agency to choose.   I do not believe our agency is diminished by becoming Celestial - I believe it is expanded - that the choices expand - they do not pass away.  Many years ago I made a covenant to live the word of wisdom.  My resolve over many years is very strong - I have no concern that any temptation may change my choice and resolve - but I would also stand against anyone that would take away my agency (choice) to live the word of wisdom.  Some would argue - as you have - that since I would not brake the WOW anyway - why not make the choice impossible?  If you understand Satan's plan - and I do not think you understand this particular part - Satan wanted to forever remove our agency or choice.  Not just to get us to the Celestial Kingdom but to end the conflict between good and evil forever by eliminating agency or choice - which is the only way such a conflict can be ended. 

 

I submit that G-d has his agency to this day and could choose to break his covenants and cease to be G-d - just because he does not - does not mean that he cannot.

Who said anything about the choices not expanding?  All I am saying is that evil won't be one of them.  Why could it not be that choices expand because of the opportunities while in the Celestial Kingdom go on and on eternally?  A kite with a string can fly, the kite without a string can't fly.

 

I am saying that if you won't break the Word of Wisdom them you are afforded new opportunities that are not available to those who can't even master that issue.  Joseph Smith said (paraphrasing) if we are successful with small stewardships we will be given greater ones. 

 

How can eternal happiness be together with eternal conflict?  Are we only happy when there is a battle or struggle?  Again the idea that 'we are all enlisted till the conflict is o'er, happy are we!' is a false ideal for you?

 

You are equating choice between good and evil with "eternal conflict" and that, I think, is your mistake.  Just because God theoretically could choose evil does mean that He is in "conflict" with evil.  Is God conflicted with evil?  Absolutely not! 

 

I could burn my house down but there is no conflict, there is nothing driving me or tempting me to do such a thing.  Could I do it?  Sure.  But there is absolutely nothing pushing me to do such a stupid thing right now, there is no conflict.  Likewise, just because there is no conflict does not preclude the opportunity to do something.  I was simply stating your missuse of the words "eternal conflict". 

 

When Christ was in body here on Earth He fasted for 40 days then He was tempted by Satan to turn a stone into bread.  There was conflict, He was hungry, He had the power to do it and yet He didn't.  If He was not hungry there would be no conflict but that doesn't preclude the possibility of Him turning stone into bread.  Now if God told Him to turn stone into bread, He could do it or if God told Him not to turn stone into bread He could not do it.  There is choice and yet there is no conflict.  The choices are simply not between good and evil.

 

Mormon understood this concept in describing Moroni; " 17 Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men."   So, in a place where all are like Moroni, how much power will Satan have?

 

What is the Holy Spirit of Promise?  D&C; " 124 First, I give unto you Hyrum Smith to be a patriarch unto you, to hold the sealing blessings of my church, even the Holy Spirit of promise, whereby ye are sealed up unto the day of redemption, that ye may not fall notwithstanding the hour of temptation that may come upon you."   "Sealed up" so as to "not fall" sounds like no conflict to me.

 

Revelation 12; " 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

 

D&C 38; "18 And I hold forth and deign to give unto you greater riches, even a land of promise, a land flowing with milk and honey, upon which there shall be no curse when the Lord cometh;

 19 And I will give it unto you for the land of your inheritance, if you seek it with all your hearts."

 

Joseph Smith Translation of Revelations; "9 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ;

 10 For the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 11 For they have overcome him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; for they loved not their own lives, but kept the testimony even unto death. Therefore, rejoice O heavens, and ye that dwell in them."

 

In the Kingdom of God, they have overcome Satan.  Rejoice, because Satan is overcome.  Happiness comes from not having a conflict with Satan anymore.

 

Revelations JST " 12 And after these things I heard another voice saying, Woe to the inhabiters of the earth, yea, and they who dwell upon the islands of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."   The conflict is for a time, not eternal!!!

 

Revelations; "7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."   You must think this scripture is a lie.

 

D&C 88; " 114 And then cometh the battle of the great God; and the devil and his armies shall be cast away into their own place, that they shall not have power over the saints any more at all."

 

"shall not have power over the saints any more at all" ... believe it, this is truth.  The conflict is not eternal for any given saint.  Yes there is one great round for God and worlds without end He has but for any one of us that makes it into the Celestial Kingdom the devil and his armies will be overcome and the conflict will be over.

[Traveler]

Who said anything about the choices not expanding?  All I am saying is that evil won't be one of them.  Why could it not be that choices expand because of the opportunities while in the Celestial Kingdom go on and on eternally?  A kite with a string can fly, the kite without a string can't fly.

 

I am saying that if you won't break the Word of Wisdom them you are afforded new opportunities that are not available to those who can't even master that issue.  Joseph Smith said (paraphrasing) if we are successful with small stewardships we will be given greater ones. 

 

How can eternal happiness be together with eternal conflict?  Are we only happy when there is a battle or struggle?  Again the idea that 'we are all enlisted till the conflict is o'er, happy are we!' is a false ideal for you?

 

You are equating choice between good and evil with "eternal conflict" and that, I think, is your mistake.  Just because God theoretically could choose evil does mean that He is in "conflict" with evil.  Is God conflicted with evil?  Absolutely not! 

 

I could burn my house down but there is no conflict, there is nothing driving me or tempting me to do such a thing.  Could I do it?  Sure.  But there is absolutely nothing pushing me to do such a stupid thing right now, there is no conflict.  Likewise, just because there is no conflict does not preclude the opportunity to do something.  I was simply stating your missuse of the words "eternal conflict". 

 

When Christ was in body here on Earth He fasted for 40 days then He was tempted by Satan to turn a stone into bread.  There was conflict, He was hungry, He had the power to do it and yet He didn't.  If He was not hungry there would be no conflict but that doesn't preclude the possibility of Him turning stone into bread.  Now if God told Him to turn stone into bread, He could do it or if God told Him not to turn stone into bread He could not do it.  There is choice and yet there is no conflict.  The choices are simply not between good and evil.

 

Mormon understood this concept in describing Moroni; " 17 Yea, verily, verily I say unto you, if all men had been, and were, and ever would be, like unto Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever; yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men."   So, in a place where all are like Moroni, how much power will Satan have?

 

What is the Holy Spirit of Promise?  D&C; " 124 First, I give unto you Hyrum Smith to be a patriarch unto you, to hold the sealing blessings of my church, even the Holy Spirit of promise, whereby ye are sealed up unto the day of redemption, that ye may not fall notwithstanding the hour of temptation that may come upon you."   "Sealed up" so as to "not fall" sounds like no conflict to me.

 

Revelation 12; " 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

 

D&C 38; "18 And I hold forth and deign to give unto you greater riches, even a land of promise, a land flowing with milk and honey, upon which there shall be no curse when the Lord cometh;

 19 And I will give it unto you for the land of your inheritance, if you seek it with all your hearts."

 

Joseph Smith Translation of Revelations; "9 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ;

 10 For the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 11 For they have overcome him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; for they loved not their own lives, but kept the testimony even unto death. Therefore, rejoice O heavens, and ye that dwell in them."

 

In the Kingdom of God, they have overcome Satan.  Rejoice, because Satan is overcome.  Happiness comes from not having a conflict with Satan anymore.

 

Revelations JST " 12 And after these things I heard another voice saying, Woe to the inhabiters of the earth, yea, and they who dwell upon the islands of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."   The conflict is for a time, not eternal!!!

 

Revelations; "7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."   You must think this scripture is a lie.

 

D&C 88; " 114 And then cometh the battle of the great God; and the devil and his armies shall be cast away into their own place, that they shall not have power over the saints any more at all."

 

"shall not have power over the saints any more at all" ... believe it, this is truth.  The conflict is not eternal for any given saint.  Yes there is one great round for God and worlds without end He has but for any one of us that makes it into the Celestial Kingdom the devil and his armies will be overcome and the conflict will be over.

 

Sorry I am short on time - you are still confusing evil from those that choose evil.  Casting out those that choose evil is very different than removing agency or ability to choose evil.  There are opposites in all things - good and evil is no exception - there is no sweet without bitter.  But knowing the difference does not mean that one has to constantly choose to taste the bitter to know sweet - just that there must be opposing possibilities for either to exist in reality.  The possibility of evil is not removed from the Celestial Kingdom - only those that choose evil are moved.

 

I thought I pointed this out before - but must apologize from not being clear resulting in having to pass through this again.  Sorry.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Sorry I am short on time - you are still confusing evil from those that choose evil.  Casting out those that choose evil is very different than removing agency or ability to choose evil.  There are opposites in all things - good and evil is no exception - there is no sweet without bitter.  But knowing the difference does not mean that one has to constantly choose to taste the bitter to know sweet - just that there must be opposing possibilities for either to exist in reality.  The possibility of evil is not removed from the Celestial Kingdom - only those that choose evil are moved.

 

I thought I pointed this out before - but must apologize from not being clear resulting in having to pass through this again.  Sorry.

You are softening your words, I only had issue with the words "eternal conflict".  Conflict implies battle, fight, war, struggle.  Will the war be won or not?  Will there be peace or war in the Celestial Kingdom?    If there has to be opposites then how can we have peace without the possibility of war? 

The opposites in all things is a description of mortality and the test we face here to bring about salvation. 

 

There is no "possibility of evil" in the Celestial Kingdom, I have not been taught of that place.  I have been taught of a place of peace and rest, "come unto my rest".  This does not mean there is no work to do but that there is no conflict.  Having the possibility of evil is a limiting trait, liberty is achieved by being pure and righteous.  Evil is limiting, binding etc. In the Celestial Kingdom there is no chance to be limited again, there is only a chance for eternal growth.

[Traveler]

You are softening your words, I only had issue with the words "eternal conflict".  Conflict implies battle, fight, war, struggle.  Will the war be won or not?  Will there be peace or war in the Celestial Kingdom?    If there has to be opposites then how can we have peace without the possibility of war? 

The opposites in all things is a description of mortality and the test we face here to bring about salvation. 

 

There is no "possibility of evil" in the Celestial Kingdom, I have not been taught of that place.  I have been taught of a place of peace and rest, "come unto my rest".  This does not mean there is no work to do but that there is no conflict.  Having the possibility of evil is a limiting trait, liberty is achieved by being pure and righteous.  Evil is limiting, binding etc. In the Celestial Kingdom there is no chance to be limited again, there is only a chance for eternal growth.

 

I think we concluded that evil will always be a possibility and that those that choose evil will exist as well - If G-d and those that associate themselves with him no longer oppose evil (in conflict with evil) - who will?

 

Obviously the rest and peace of which Christ spoke does not mean at rest or at peace with evil.  Jesus promised his disciples rest and peace and within 30 years of his death the early Christians suffered persecutions as severe as any recorded in history.  Perhaps this is to be understood spiritually and not to the understanding or argued with the mind of the “natural man”.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think we concluded that evil will always be a possibility and that those that choose evil will exist as well - If G-d and those that associate themselves with him no longer oppose evil (in conflict with evil) - who will?

 

Obviously the rest and peace of which Christ spoke does not mean at rest or at peace with evil.  Jesus promised his disciples rest and peace and within 30 years of his death the early Christians suffered persecutions as severe as any recorded in history.  Perhaps this is to be understood spiritually and not to the understanding or argued with the mind of the “natural man”.

Opposing evil doesn't mean necessarily that there is a "conflict".

 

Rest and peace comes after this life, after the second estate test is over.  That is the timeframe we are talking about here.  Not sure why you want to bounce back into this world's timeframe when we were talking about "eternal conflict" occuring after resurrection.   Again, you are bouncing around to different topics.  I just had issue with your use of the words "eternal conflict" to describe the life of someone found in the Celestial Kingdom (obviously, after the second estate test is over).

 

John 16; " 33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

 

Does Christ overcome the world or not?   If there is eternal "conflict" then He did not overcome the world, He left some to contend with.  I believe in a Savior that overcomes the world and offers true peace and even after the tribulation from the world which continues while we are here, that will not continue eternally as He has overcome the world for us, if we so accept it.  All those in the Celestial Kingdom accepted his atonement which was a full price, nothing left over.

 

Isaiah explains after the second coming what will happen; "16 Then judgment shall dwell in the wilderness, and righteousness remain in the fruitful field.

 17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever."

 

It says "for ever" there, in case you didnt catch that.

[Traveler]

Opposing evil doesn't mean necessarily that there is a "conflict".

 

Rest and peace comes after this life, after the second estate test is over.  That is the timeframe we are talking about here.  Not sure why you want to bounce back into this world's timeframe when we were talking about "eternal conflict" occuring after resurrection.   Again, you are bouncing around to different topics.  I just had issue with your use of the words "eternal conflict" to describe the life of someone found in the Celestial Kingdom (obviously, after the second estate test is over).

 

John 16; " 33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

 

Does Christ overcome the world or not?   If there is eternal "conflict" then He did not overcome the world, He left some to contend with.  I believe in a Savior that overcomes the world and offers true peace and even after the tribulation from the world which continues while we are here, that will not continue eternally as He has overcome the world for us, if we so accept it.  All those in the Celestial Kingdom accepted his atonement which was a full price, nothing left over.

 

Isaiah explains after the second coming what will happen; "16 Then judgment shall dwell in the wilderness, and righteousness remain in the fruitful field.

 17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever."

 

It says "for ever" there, in case you didnt catch that.

 

I think you greatly misunderstand the peace and rest of G-d.  His peace and rest does not come because there is no tribulation or because tribulation has ended.  The rest and peace of G-d comes, exists and sustains despite and in the midst of tribulation. 

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think you greatly misunderstand the peace and rest of G-d.  His peace and rest does not come because there is no tribulation or because tribulation has ended.  The rest and peace of G-d comes, exists and sustains despite and in the midst of tribulation. 

What "tribulation" is God in the midst of?    Please be specific.   What exact evil does He personally contend with?

 

 

How do you interpret this scripture, D&C 76 (talking about those that make it into the Celestial Kingdom); "

 59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

 60 And they shall overcome all things.

 61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.

 62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever."

 

It doesn't say most or some or majority, it says "all" twice.  All things are overcome for those that find their self in the Celestial Kingdom, that is what is meant by having a fullness of joy, there is nothing lacking.  If you say there is something to contend with then you are saying there is something not yet achieved but the scripture says "all things are theirs".  Past, present, future, all things are theirs.  How can I misinterpret that, it is pretty clear.

 

D&C 84; " 37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;

 38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him."

 

James Talmage (Articles of Faith); "The Celestial Glory—There are some who have striven to obey all the divine commandments, who have accepted the testimony of Christ, obeyed ‘the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,’ and received the Holy Spirit; these are they who have overcome evil by godly works and who are therefore entitled to the highest glory; … they possess celestial bodies, ‘whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical’; they are admitted to the glorified company, crowned with exaltation in the celestial kingdom."

 

D&C 88; " 114 And then cometh the battle of the great God; and the devil and his armies shall be cast away into their own place, that they shall not have power over the saints any more at all."

 

D&C 29; "27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;

 28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

 29 And now, behold, I say unto you, never at any time have I declared from mine own mouth that they should return, for where I am they cannot come, for they have no power."

 

It is made very clear in the scriptures and our teaching that there is no contention with evil after the final judgement, after the second estate is passed. Those that are thrown into the lake of fire will be tormented forever but not those that are on the right hand of God.  If they have no power there, then there is no contention.  Once the final judgement is made, the individual is revealed, there is no question who the person is, there is no internal conflict either, unless one believes that God could make a mistake in His final judgement.  That doesnt preclude individual growth and progression, just means the train is on a specific track that does not have a chance for becoming derailed or conflicted.

[Traveler]

What "tribulation" is God in the midst of?    Please be specific.   What exact evil does He personally contend with?

 

 

 

G-d is mindful, knows of, understands and oversees all "tribulations".  What tribulation do you think he is ignorant of and that escapes his knowledge?  He is mindful, knows of and contends against all evil.  Again what evil do you believe takes place without his knowledge and opposition?  Did we not agree that evil will exist for ever?  Opposing evil is defiantly contending against evil - do you believe that G-d will someday give up and let evil do as it will with whoever it will?   Do you think that Satan will someday no longer fight (contend) against G-d?   See Moroni 7:12

[Seminarysnoozer]

G-d is mindful, knows of, understands and oversees all "tribulations".  What tribulation do you think he is ignorant of and that escapes his knowledge?  He is mindful, knows of and contends against all evil.  Again what evil do you believe takes place without his knowledge and opposition?  Did we not agree that evil will exist for ever?  Opposing evil is defiantly contending against evil - do you believe that G-d will someday give up and let evil do as it will with whoever it will?   Do you think that Satan will someday no longer fight (contend) against G-d?   See Moroni 7:12

Knowledge and awareness is not the same thing as contention or tribulation.  He is mindful and aware of all evil and tribulation but that does not mean that He is in the "midst" of it.

 

I don't have to contend with a wild lion in a cage but once he is let out then yes, I might have to contend with it.  I can still be aware of the lion while he is in the cage.  Would the lion fight if let out of the cage, probably yes.  Can he fight while in the cage? no.

 

The battle is won some day.  God is victorious.  Christ actually saves us.  He overcomes the world and Satan for us.  He doesn't partly save us or just show us the door.  He saves us.  That is what I believe.

[Traveler]

Knowledge and awareness is not the same thing as contention or tribulation.  He is mindful and aware of all evil and tribulation but that does not mean that He is in the "midst" of it.

 

I don't have to contend with a wild lion in a cage but once he is let out then yes, I might have to contend with it.  I can still be aware of the lion while he is in the cage.  Would the lion fight if let out of the cage, probably yes.  Can he fight while in the cage? no.

 

The battle is won some day.  God is victorious.  Christ actually saves us.  He overcomes the world and Satan for us.  He doesn't partly save us or just show us the door.  He saves us.  That is what I believe.

 

So in essence your G-d is mindful and knowledgeable but at some point quits and does nothing about evil?  From you analogy you may think that a caged lion does not need to be contended with – but that would be inaccurate.   The cage and it maintenance or continued existence of such things is in essence the means of or resolution to having to continually contend with the ferociousness of the lion.  You may think you have nothing to do with a caged lion – but if you would be knowledgeable and responsible – as someone must - I would suggest that you consider otherwise.

[Seminarysnoozer]

So in essence your G-d is mindful and knowledgeable but at some point quits and does nothing about evil?  From you analogy you may think that a caged lion does not need to be contended with – but that would be inaccurate.   The cage and it maintenance or continued existence of such things is in essence the means of or resolution to having to continually contend with the ferociousness of the lion.  You may think you have nothing to do with a caged lion – but if you would be knowledgeable and responsible – as someone must - I would suggest that you consider otherwise.

Again you are mixing up words, now you are equating maintainance and "does nothing" with the word "conflict".  You originally stated "eternal conflict", that is what this conversation is about.  It is not about maintainance or doing nothing or not being aware.  It is upon you to prove that there is some "conflict" God has with evil. 

 

Yes, the word conflict can simply mean a disagreement of ideas but that is not how we use the word when talking about evil.  There we are using the word as its more common and universal definition which is to contend with, to battle with, to argue etc.  The battle will be over for us. 

 

Within God's eternal rounds he has many worlds.  Within each realm there is a war in heaven, the war is between those that follow the plan of God vs those of a Lucifer.  It is not God's battle or anyone else who has passed the first estate test or the second estate test.  Then the battle or conflict continues into the second estate after which there is a judgement that ends with the Savior overcoming evil, overcoming Satan. Then there is an end to the conflict for those people so that they can have eternal happiness and joy never to have to contend with evil again.

 

Part of Satan's persuasive argument was this issue that the children of God before the first estate test were not exposed to evil.  The argument being if we don't have to be exposed to evil why send people into mortality to have that exposure.  His persuasion was countered with those that have faith in a Savior that would pull them out of danger, out from evil, out from corruption.  Those that followed Lucifer did not have faith in a Savior.  They could not believe that He could actually save them from such a Fall and exposure to evil that we have never experienced before.  Only those that had faith that Christ could erase the pains of corruption accepted God's plan, they believed in the plan for happiness.

 

It is Satan's arguement that once exposed to evil one could not erase or stay clean from the exposure.  This is a Satanic idea that goes against having faith in Christ that Christ can actually make us white as snow, pure, clean and no long lasting effects from corruption and evil.  It is a Satanic idea to believe that Christ cannot overcome evil 100% for all of us.

[Traveler]

Again you are mixing up words, now you are equating maintainance and "does nothing" with the word "conflict".  You originally stated "eternal conflict", that is what this conversation is about.  It is not about maintainance or doing nothing or not being aware.  It is upon you to prove that there is some "conflict" God has with evil. 

 

Yes, the word conflict can simply mean a disagreement of ideas but that is not how we use the word when talking about evil.  There we are using the word as its more common and universal definition which is to contend with, to battle with, to argue etc.  The battle will be over for us. 

 

Within God's eternal rounds he has many worlds.  Within each realm there is a war in heaven, the war is between those that follow the plan of God vs those of a Lucifer.  It is not God's battle or anyone else who has passed the first estate test or the second estate test.  Then the battle or conflict continues into the second estate after which there is a judgement that ends with the Savior overcoming evil, overcoming Satan. Then there is an end to the conflict for those people so that they can have eternal happiness and joy never to have to contend with evil again.

 

Part of Satan's persuasive argument was this issue that the children of God before the first estate test were not exposed to evil.  The argument being if we don't have to be exposed to evil why send people into mortality to have that exposure.  His persuasion was countered with those that have faith in a Savior that would pull them out of danger, out from evil, out from corruption.  Those that followed Lucifer did not have faith in a Savior.  They could not believe that He could actually save them from such a Fall and exposure to evil that we have never experienced before.  Only those that had faith that Christ could erase the pains of corruption accepted God's plan, they believed in the plan for happiness.

 

It is Satan's arguement that once exposed to evil one could not erase or stay clean from the exposure.  This is a Satanic idea that goes against having faith in Christ that Christ can actually make us white as snow, pure, clean and no long lasting effects from corruption and evil.  It is a Satanic idea to believe that Christ cannot overcome evil 100% for all of us.

 

I think you are missing an important notion.  I believe that G-d will not do for man what such man is capable of doing for them self.  The corollary for this notion is that G-d will do for man what man cannot do for them self.   I have discovered this simple truth over a life time of experience.  Because we are fallen – the atonement of Christ contends with evil for us – but it is only taken care of for us now because as a fallen being; we cannot by ourselves contend with evil but we must rely on Christ to contend with and deal with evil for us.  However, in the resurrection we will by choice deal with evil ourselves on an eternal scale because we can - we can contend with a lion and cage him ourselves and have no need to rely on someone else to do such things for us.  

 

I thought you may have had enough experience with covenants to realize that such dedication and discipline is not ever a one and done test but rather a progression that will continue throughout eternity.  I simply do not believe that righteousness is something at which we arrive at after some test that we; one passed are done with forever – but rather a path and a way.   Righteousness for me is like riding a bicycle – it is not just an ability that we learn once, pass a test and ignore forever after but rather it is something we learn and make a part of our day to day life – not something we can do to prove we can but something we forever master.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think you are missing an important notion.  I believe that G-d will not do for man what such man is capable of doing for them self.  The corollary for this notion is that G-d will do for man what man cannot do for them self.   I have discovered this simple truth over a life time of experience.  Because we are fallen – the atonement of Christ contends with evil for us – but it is only taken care of for us now because as a fallen being; we cannot by ourselves contend with evil but we must rely on Christ to contend with and deal with evil for us.  However, in the resurrection we will by choice deal with evil ourselves on an eternal scale because we can - we can contend with a lion and cage him ourselves and have no need to rely on someone else to do such things for us.  

 

I thought you may have had enough experience with covenants to realize that such dedication and discipline is not ever a one and done test but rather a progression that will continue throughout eternity.  I simply do not believe that righteousness is something at which we arrive at after some test that we; one passed are done with forever – but rather a path and a way.   Righteousness for me is like riding a bicycle – it is not just an ability that we learn once, pass a test and ignore forever after but rather it is something we learn and make a part of our day to day life – not something we can do to prove we can but something we forever master.

I guess we just disagree about there being "loose lions" around after we are in a Kingdom of Glory.  

 

I have never been taught such doctrine nor can see it anywhere in my reading.  We can progress without evil just like we progressed before we knew the difference between good and evil. 

 

Gods work and glory is to bring about the eternal life and immortality of man.  Those that find their self in the Celestial Kingdom will be doing similar work.  They won't have to go back to "kindergarten" so-to-speak but will help others get through kindergarten.  Once we pass the first estate test we do not have to take the first estate test again,  Once we pass the second estate test we don't have to take the second estate test again.  We do not believe in reincarnation that would allow us to take the test over again.  We therefore cannot be exposed to corruption of the body that would allow for death again after resurrection.   Yes, this part of the test will be done for us and all the blessings that come from it will be eternally ours, even a fullness thereof.  We will not Fall again.

[Traveler]

I guess we just disagree about there being "loose lions" around after we are in a Kingdom of Glory.  

 

I have never been taught such doctrine nor can see it anywhere in my reading.  We can progress without evil just like we progressed before we knew the difference between good and evil. 

 

Gods work and glory is to bring about the eternal life and immortality of man.  Those that find their self in the Celestial Kingdom will be doing similar work.  They won't have to go back to "kindergarten" so-to-speak but will help others get through kindergarten.  Once we pass the first estate test we do not have to take the first estate test again,  Once we pass the second estate test we don't have to take the second estate test again.  We do not believe in reincarnation that would allow us to take the test over again.  We therefore cannot be exposed to corruption of the body that would allow for death again after resurrection.   Yes, this part of the test will be done for us and all the blessings that come from it will be eternally ours, even a fullness thereof.  We will not Fall again.

 

Wow - I think there is a gross misunderstanding.  As to loose lions in the Celestial Kingdom.  All I said was that a cage for a lion is a means of contending with the furiosity of a lion.  So if you are saying we disagree about "loose" lions - I am left to assume that you believe evil to be unrestricted in the Celestial kingdom.  Am I to assume, since you believe no one in the Celestial Kingdom opposes or contends against evil that evil will therefore be unchecked or unopposed in the Celestial Kingdom?  For the record that would be my personal definition of Hell - or if you will outer darkness.  My view of the Celestial Kingdom is a society of individuals - all of whom oppose and contend with evil at every opportunity with full knowledge and power to do so completely 100% on their own.

 

Your view of testing and judgment - is very different than mine.  I view our estates like attending classes and the idea of passing kindergarten is not to take some test and forever afterwords to be done with kindergarten things - but rather to attend classes and master a level of learning we call kindergarten which means that we can take what we learned and achieved and apply it to what we do and observe forever more.  As masters of kindergarten it is not that we are now absolved of kindergarten principles and tasks - but rather that we are now masters of such things and no longer dependent on a kindergarten teacher to guide us through the challenges of kindergarten things - but that we can use what we have learned - apply that knowledge and deal with kindergarten challenges and issues on our own.  It is not that we will never face kindergarten challenges or issues but that we are no longer dependent on a kindergarten teacher to get us through such challenges or issues - we have all the knowledge, ability and power to deal with such things ourselves. 

 

I am getting the impression that you believe once kindergarten has been tested and passed - that whatever was learned and achieved in kindergarten will no longer have any actual individual use, purpose or especially application????  Because we will never in the future have condition to use such knowledge, ability or power again for ourselves????? 

 

There is a saying in engineering - those with engineering degrees that cannot solve real world engineering problems end up becoming teachers of engineering at universities.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Wow - I think there is a gross misunderstanding.  As to loose lions in the Celestial Kingdom.  All I said was that a cage for a lion is a means of contending with the furiosity of a lion.  So if you are saying we disagree about "loose" lions - I am left to assume that you believe evil to be unrestricted in the Celestial kingdom.  Am I to assume, since you believe no one in the Celestial Kingdom opposes or contends against evil that evil will therefore be unchecked or unopposed in the Celestial Kingdom?  For the record that would be my personal definition of Hell - or if you will outer darkness.  My view of the Celestial Kingdom is a society of individuals - all of whom oppose and contend with evil at every opportunity with full knowledge and power to do so completely 100% on their own.

 

Your view of testing and judgment - is very different than mine.  I view our estates like attending classes and the idea of passing kindergarten is not to take some test and forever afterwords to be done with kindergarten things - but rather to attend classes and master a level of learning we call kindergarten which means that we can take what we learned and achieved and apply it to what we do and observe forever more.  As masters of kindergarten it is not that we are now absolved of kindergarten principles and tasks - but rather that we are now masters of such things and no longer dependent on a kindergarten teacher to guide us through the challenges of kindergarten things - but that we can use what we have learned - apply that knowledge and deal with kindergarten challenges and issues on our own.  It is not that we will never face kindergarten challenges or issues but that we are no longer dependent on a kindergarten teacher to get us through such challenges or issues - we have all the knowledge, ability and power to deal with such things ourselves. 

 

I am getting the impression that you believe once kindergarten has been tested and passed - that whatever was learned and achieved in kindergarten will no longer have any actual individual use, purpose or especially application????  Because we will never in the future have condition to use such knowledge, ability or power again for ourselves????? 

 

There is a saying in engineering - those with engineering degrees that cannot solve real world engineering problems end up becoming teachers of engineering at universities.

I don't believe there is any evil in the Celestial Kingdom.  That I have already made clear.

 

I think your view of "conflict" is different than mine.  In this life we are dual beings, one of the physical which is corrupt and carnal and the other nature which is of the spirit.  In such a way there is internal conflict.  We are mortals for a short period of time.  Upon resurrection we no longer have to contend with the corrupt body, it will be purified and perfected and glorified.  That means it will not present any conflict with our spirits.  It will be in union 100% with our spirits, meaning no conflict.  So, as to that kind of conflict, it will be over.

 

Then there is external conflict that is presented by the forces of evil that surround us, Satan and his followers and even the world itself.  That also will be overcome in the end and not be present in the Celestial Kingdom in any way.

 

Talmage said; "The Celestial Glory—There are some who have striven to obey all the divine commandments, who have accepted the testimony of Christ, obeyed ‘the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,’ and received the Holy Spirit; these are they who have overcome evil by godly works and who are therefore entitled to the highest glory; … they possess celestial bodies, ‘whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical’; they are admitted to the glorified company, crowned with exaltation in the celestial kingdom."

 

Posessing "celestial bodies" means no conflict, evil has been overcome. A celestial body does not waver in indecision, it does not contain uncertainty or misdirection or misconception.  It can see all and see all truth to be nor more influenced in any way by darkness. Or current body and situation is very much unlike that which makes it hard to comprehend.

 

Evil has to be invited in when not part of self.  In this life we are born into corrupt bodies and once accountable we can make choices to accept it or reject it.   If we reject it while in this life then it will not be something we have to either accept or reject in the next life.  Now is the time to accept it or reject it.  One will not have another chance after the final judgement to make that choice again.

 

I suppose you do not believe in a "final" judgement.  You must think that the judgement is just one more step in series of judgements.   Is it final or not?   I wonder if you really think the judgement is not final and that is what allows you to think that a person would still face the test after the test is done.

 

Throughout this life we face tests of all kinds.  Any example you use of a case where a person has taken a step forward but still faces challenges, such as your example of an engineering student is true for most situations in mortality because we face the issue of corruption in our brain and in body, it is a constant failing system.  This is not the case after resurrection.  Your examples would not apply to one who is perfected and receives a perfected body that does not corrupt, it does not forget, it does not waver in its choice or direction, it is not influenced by indecision or uncertainty or forgetfulness.  The closest example of that type of mindset we have is Christ.  Christ will be triumphant over all evil, He will vanquish His foes forever to never have to contend with them again in any personal way. Yes, He will likely be involved in helping others with their conflict but He will have overcome evil at the end of this world just like everyone else who enters the Celestial Kingdom as Talmage so stated.

[Traveler]

I don't believe there is any evil in the Celestial Kingdom.  That I have already made clear.

 

I think your view of "conflict" is different than mine.  In this life we are dual beings, one of the physical which is corrupt and carnal and the other nature which is of the spirit.  In such a way there is internal conflict.  We are mortals for a short period of time.  Upon resurrection we no longer have to contend with the corrupt body, it will be purified and perfected and glorified.  That means it will not present any conflict with our spirits.  It will be in union 100% with our spirits, meaning no conflict.  So, as to that kind of conflict, it will be over.

 

Then there is external conflict that is presented by the forces of evil that surround us, Satan and his followers and even the world itself.  That also will be overcome in the end and not be present in the Celestial Kingdom in any way.

 

Talmage said; "The Celestial Glory—There are some who have striven to obey all the divine commandments, who have accepted the testimony of Christ, obeyed ‘the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,’ and received the Holy Spirit; these are they who have overcome evil by godly works and who are therefore entitled to the highest glory; … they possess celestial bodies, ‘whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical’; they are admitted to the glorified company, crowned with exaltation in the celestial kingdom."

 

Posessing "celestial bodies" means no conflict, evil has been overcome. A celestial body does not waver in indecision, it does not contain uncertainty or misdirection or misconception.  It can see all and see all truth to be nor more influenced in any way by darkness. Or current body and situation is very much unlike that which makes it hard to comprehend.

 

Evil has to be invited in when not part of self.  In this life we are born into corrupt bodies and once accountable we can make choices to accept it or reject it.   If we reject it while in this life then it will not be something we have to either accept or reject in the next life.  Now is the time to accept it or reject it.  One will not have another chance after the final judgement to make that choice again.

 

I suppose you do not believe in a "final" judgement.  You must think that the judgement is just one more step in series of judgements.   Is it final or not?   I wonder if you really think the judgement is not final and that is what allows you to think that a person would still face the test after the test is done.

 

Throughout this life we face tests of all kinds.  Any example you use of a case where a person has taken a step forward but still faces challenges, such as your example of an engineering student is true for most situations in mortality because we face the issue of corruption in our brain and in body, it is a constant failing system.  This is not the case after resurrection.  Your examples would not apply to one who is perfected and receives a perfected body that does not corrupt, it does not forget, it does not waver in its choice or direction, it is not influenced by indecision or uncertainty or forgetfulness.  The closest example of that type of mindset we have is Christ.  Christ will be triumphant over all evil, He will vanquish His foes forever to never have to contend with them again in any personal way. Yes, He will likely be involved in helping others with their conflict but He will have overcome evil at the end of this world just like everyone else who enters the Celestial Kingdom as Talmage so stated.

 

There is a disconnect - again I think you are confusing individuals that embrace evil with evil they embrace.  I agree that there are no individuals that embrace evil in the Celestial Kingdom - you do not need to quote anyone concerning individuals embracing evil in the Celestial Kingdom - such has nothing with the point I am trying to bring directly to the table.  Individuals embracing evil is not at all what I am trying to put across.  All your quotes have to do with individuals that embrace evil - not evil as an independent possibility.  Perhaps you can clarify your understand for be between evil and individuals that desire evil.  Do you believe evil must be acted on to exist?  Is it possible in your paradigm for evil to exist independent of anyone embracing it?  There is a great deal of symbolism concerning good and evil as compared to light and darkness - but if you can only understand good and evil in terms of individuals - I am not sure how to continue.

[Seminarysnoozer]

There is a disconnect - again I think you are confusing individuals that embrace evil with evil they embrace.  I agree that there are no individuals that embrace evil in the Celestial Kingdom - you do not need to quote anyone concerning individuals embracing evil in the Celestial Kingdom - such has nothing with the point I am trying to bring directly to the table.  Individuals embracing evil is not at all what I am trying to put across.  All your quotes have to do with individuals that embrace evil - not evil as an independent possibility.  Perhaps you can clarify your understand for be between evil and individuals that desire evil.  Do you believe evil must be acted on to exist?  Is it possible in your paradigm for evil to exist independent of anyone embracing it?  There is a great deal of symbolism concerning good and evil as compared to light and darkness - but if you can only understand good and evil in terms of individuals - I am not sure how to continue.

And you have to clarify whether you are talking about this existence or the next because they are way different situations.

Now is our time of probation.  During the probationary period evil exists in the form of corruption all around us, in the elements themselves but also by way of the casting down of Satan to have power through the elements.  This will be for a short period of time we call probation. Someone who embraces evil during probation can become intrinsically evil but will eventually have to bow his knee to Christ and rid self of the evil embrassed during their time in spirit prison either through repentence or suffering.  We were not talking about this time, we were talking about having an "eternal conflict" with evil even after the probationary period is over and after spirit prison is over for those that have to go through that.

 

If evil is as ubiquitous and universal as you are trying to suggest, it is always there and always present then why did Adam and Eve have to eat of the tree to be exposed to it?  It would have been there already.

Why would we have to be mortal to see both good and evil if evil was everywhere all the time?  We came from a place without evil and will return to live with our Heavenly Father in similar conditions if we obey.

 

The power of the atonement is not only to redeem but also to enable.  Enable what?  To overcome all as Christ did for us. This is the difference between putting off the natural man (being redeemed) and then becoming a saint (enabling power of the atonement).  This is what is meant in having a change of heart as in Mosiah 5; " 2 And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually."

 

If there is no more disposition to do evil but to do good continually then where is this "eternal conflict" you talk about? 

[Traveler]

And you have to clarify whether you are talking about this existence or the next because they are way different situations.

Now is our time of probation.  During the probationary period evil exists in the form of corruption all around us, in the elements themselves but also by way of the casting down of Satan to have power through the elements.  This will be for a short period of time we call probation. Someone who embraces evil during probation can become intrinsically evil but will eventually have to bow his knee to Christ and rid self of the evil embrassed during their time in spirit prison either through repentence or suffering.  We were not talking about this time, we were talking about having an "eternal conflict" with evil even after the probationary period is over and after spirit prison is over for those that have to go through that.

 

If evil is as ubiquitous and universal as you are trying to suggest, it is always there and always present then why did Adam and Eve have to eat of the tree to be exposed to it?  It would have been there already.

Why would we have to be mortal to see both good and evil if evil was everywhere all the time?  We came from a place without evil and will return to live with our Heavenly Father in similar conditions if we obey.

 

The power of the atonement is not only to redeem but also to enable.  Enable what?  To overcome all as Christ did for us. This is the difference between putting off the natural man (being redeemed) and then becoming a saint (enabling power of the atonement).  This is what is meant in having a change of heart as in Mosiah 5; " 2 And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually."

 

If there is no more disposition to do evil but to do good continually then where is this "eternal conflict" you talk about? 

 

As I understand; the difference between this life and the next is that in this life we do not yet have the power or means to deal with evil ourselves but must rely on the atonement of Christ to deal with evil in our behalf.  In the next life we will will have all the power and means needed to contend and deal with evil ourselves (being one with G-d and having inherited all we need from him to deal with evil ourselves) and will no longer be dependent on G-d, ie. his power and his ability to shield us from evil and contend with evil on our behalf.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

As I understand; the difference between this life and the next is that in this life we do not yet have the power or means to deal with evil ourselves but must rely on the atonement of Christ to deal with evil in our behalf.  In the next life we will will have all the power and means needed to contend and deal with evil ourselves (being one with G-d and having inherited all we need from him to deal with evil ourselves) and will no longer be dependent on G-d, ie. his power and his ability to shield us from evil and contend with evil on our behalf.

And I am saying that the "power" you speak of is in terms of disposition.  The disposition is to never have a desire to do evil.  Purity is the lack of conflict in the mind as to what is right and to take away all doubt as to what is right.  There is no conlfict in a mind that has no disposition to do evil.  There is no "eternal conflict" for that individual.   What is inherited is a body with a physical brain that does not allow for evil to enter as one of the options, it has no disposition to be "carnal" in any way and is one with the spirit in that same disposition.

 

As you engineers like to say, garbage in leads to garbage out.  In the Celestial Kingdom there is no garbage in. There is single mindedness, there is direct purpose and no wavering, God does not move to the right or left of His path and neither will anyone who finds theirself in the Celestial Kingdom. Maybe another engineering reference would be to appreciate that the ideal perpetual motion machine could only exist in an isolated system without resistance. There would be no energy loss to any kind of friction.  It would just move forward without conflict or resistance.

[Traveler]

Hmmmm - Do you believe Jesus ever contended with Satan?  Just as a side note - and not to derail your thought - but have you ever wondered why Michael (and not G-d the Father, G-d the Son or G-d the Holy Ghost) contended with Lucifer in the pre-existance and removed him from heaven?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Hmmmm - Do you believe Jesus ever contended with Satan?  Just as a side note - and not to derail your thought - but have you ever wondered why Michael (and not G-d the Father, G-d the Son or G-d the Holy Ghost) contended with Lucifer in the pre-existance and removed him from heaven?

No but I believe Satan contended with Jesus.

 

3 Nephi 11; "29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

 30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away."

 

The first definition of contend is to struggle to surmount.   In that sense, Jesus did not "struggle", He didn't waver in His resolve, He didn't wonder, question whether Satan may be right or if that was the way to go.  Peace being the opposite of contention is when a person is sure of the truth typically by way of the Holy Ghost communicating to our spirit. Contention is generated by our physical body suggesting something different than our spirit self would want.

 

There is a reason why Christ was the Only Begotten and had to have that body to carry out His mission on Earth. He wasn't 100% immortal and so He had to increase in stature amongst men and God until He was ready to start His mission on Earth.  At that point He did not waver and He did all that He was asked to do.  There was no contention.

[Traveler]

...

 

The first definition of contend is to struggle to surmount.  

....

Have you looked up the defination of surmount? ie - it includes to stand or be placed on top of.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Traveler