The Fall In Heaven

[Annabelli]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Where do we get all this information about the preexistence and the fall? Heaven was not even there.

I don't think Luke 10:18 (And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven) reveals a great battle.

[Dr T]

I agree. I see God as being existant outside of time and can come into it but I don't think we existed before coming to Earth, agreeing to trials, etc. I think God new us as he knitted us in the womb and sees our life at all points. All praises to his majesty and power.

[sixpacktr]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Where do we get all this information about the preexistence and the fall? Heaven was not even there.

I don't think Luke 10:18 (And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven) reveals a great battle.

Read Abraham. Read Moses.

[Gabelma]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Where do we get all this information about the preexistence and the fall? Heaven was not even there.

I don't think Luke 10:18 (And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven) reveals a great battle.

Modern scripture, Revelation, Pearl of Great Price and for me very much life experience. Have you never met someone for tyhe first time but known them?

Charley

[Brother Dorsey]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Where do we get all this information about the preexistence and the fall? Heaven was not even there.

I don't think Luke 10:18 (And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven) reveals a great battle.

I think you have to understand the true meaning of the Biblical scripture Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." "Heavens" in this case meant the sky, stars, planets etc.. Not the Celestial Kingdom where God lives and we lived as spirit children of God. As far as where we get the light, truth and knowledge of the preexistence just read the Pearl of Great Price & the D & C. It was all revealed as modern revelation from the Lord Himself.

Unless you believe as as all those other Christian sects that the Lord stopped giving His church direction and stopped giving us this truth and knowledge as promised line upon line and precept upon percept. I for one rejoice in the knowledge that the Lord does indeed give us direction and does indeed make clear those eternal truths which for so long were lost. He lives and He loves us....He hasn't stopped talking to us....listen to Him.

[sixpacktr]

Modern scripture, Revelation, Pearl of Great Price and for me very much life experience. Have you never met someone for tyhe first time but known them?

Charley

Charley,

Isn't that a weird feeling? When you swear you've done something, or known someone, but there is no earthly way it happened?

This is my opinion, and not backed up by anything scriptural, so take this with a bag of salt, but...

I think we have lived our life in classes in the pre-existence. I think we were told every last thing that would happen to us, and how to react to it that was righteous and would get us back to the CK with our HF. I can't believe that HF would just pat us on the back and say "good luck", but rather train the snot out of us to make us ready.

I think that those are our "deja vous" experiences...

[CaptainTux]

Ok BD, a good answer on the heavens part. I hear what you are saying and all, but the Bible tends to cross reference itself a lot. Someone here suggested Abraham and Moses which gives me the first five...can someone narrow it down for me?

[Annabelli]

Take for instance that a guy/gal knew that they were going to be born and that their trial would be alcoholism and drug addition and all the crimes related to that lifestyle. When they get here, they take a look around and say life could be sweet, I'm blowing off that trial. I'm going straight and becoming a Saint. And with the free agency, they can do just that.

You might think the trial was choice and that they made it. But what was their original agreement? That they would become alcoholics, drug users, commit hideous crimes and repent. Was repentance their true trial?

How many people say that I knew that I was coming here and that I would have a comfortable life, marry a good person, and raise honest children who would have good lives. Theres a lot of sacrifices and trials in that agreement. It takes so much more endurance to live a good life.

When I met someone who is familiar but a stranger to me, I feel that it is the Spirit which has brought us closer. Someone that I will be inspired to share the gospel with or someone who was inspired to share the gospel with me. The gospel is most often shared in life's experiences.

[Gabelma]

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Modern scripture, Revelation, Pearl of Great Price and for me very much life experience. Have you never met someone for tyhe first time but known them?

Charley

Charley,

Isn't that a weird feeling? When you swear you've done something, or known someone, but there is no earthly way it happened?

This is my opinion, and not backed up by anything scriptural, so take this with a bag of salt, but...

I think we have lived our life in classes in the pre-existence. I think we were told every last thing that would happen to us, and how to react to it that was righteous and would get us back to the CK with our HF. I can't believe that HF would just pat us on the back and say "good luck", but rather train the snot out of us to make us ready.

I think that those are our "deja vous" experiences...

I agree we knew what we were going to be doing - I am an idiot and this life constantly say oh yes I'll do that lol and then have to deal with consequences. When i wonder how could I have agreed to this life I know I did its just what I would have done

I grew up with my greatest religious influences being my spiritualist Aunt and Uncle was a great training to later become a Latter Day Saint - again this is just my own personal feeling and interpretation (I agree with a lot of what you have said), but for me people who have had previous life experience or believe they have been as a person before - I believe they were there as spirits. I am sure I was there cheering on some my ancestors when i go through my Family History I just know some of those who I have been close to and I get impressions about their lives. I had one weird experience with a newsreader here in the UK I just looked at him and automatically was able to name his 2 older children, his wife, was able to tell what year he got married, what he studied at university and where he was born. I thought I was being silly until I got online years later and everything worked out just right - the facts I didn't know like his youngest child etc were things that had happened after I was born myself. I used to have a lot of freaky things happen being a Latetr Day Saint they all now make sense and I no longer feel odd they make sense to me now.

[sixpacktr]

Charley,

That is an interesting take. We know that those that have gone before us are allowed to come back as guardian angels and protect us (as I've said in a previous post, I believe my mother has been around from time to time to help out), but you think that perhaps you (or someone else) may have been that guardian angel before they came to the earth...

That too would explain how you would know someone or someone's family...

Food for thought!

[Gabelma]

Charley,

That is an interesting take. We know that those that have gone before us are allowed to come back as guardian angels and protect us (as I've said in a previous post, I believe my mother has been around from time to time to help out), but you think that perhaps you (or someone else) may have been that guardian angel before they came to the earth...

That too would explain how you would know someone or someone's family...

Food for thought!

I personally feel its very likely especially with ancestors and especially those born in the 'Dark Ages' or during the apostasy -if you didn't protect them and encourage them if they made wrong decsions you may end up being born with a different birth than you had thought you were going tohave (sure Heavenly Father knew otherwise lol)

Have had another experience again its more along the lines of personal revelation, not sure if I should share it though had it laughed at by a church member I trusted but here goes. When I was about 2 my parents had an abortion - I know the baby was a girl, I always felt empty, when I got bpatised I started asking Heavenly Father about her and realised that yes there was a way for her to come and me to know her, I wanted her as my daughter. My mum had when she was grieving nicknamed her tree.

When I met my husband he said he had experiences and knew he was to have a daughter with a tree connection - after a trip to the Temple we knew Tree was going to be ours. The impression I got was the revelation was my husband's to recieve. What i find interesting is I was born before Tree was aborted, but he was born afterwards.

Elana (hebrew for Tree) will be 4 in December she was born on what would have been Tree's original birthday/expected due date and she was 5 weeks early.

Charley

[sixpacktr]

Charley,

That makes perfect sense to me. Not saying it is right, but it makes sense. I have often wondered about aborted fetuses, where they end up, and your experience helps...

Too often we in the church "poo poo" revelation, even though that is the bedrock the church is built on. They feel that only Pres Hinckley or maybe our local leaders should get it, but fail to realize that ALL of us are to be prophets (Numbers 11:29), that is our HF's desire. So your experience and that of your husband are to me perfectly in line with that...

[Guest Yediyd]

Ok, I'm gonna share something that I probably shouldn't...but here goes...

...As most of you know...I was not raised LDS. I was not taught about the pre-existence before three years ago...

...When I was a child (around 7, I think) I had a dream that I have never forgotten. I dreamed about a marble staircase (at least, it looked marble to me) it was HUGE and wide, and people were going up and down it. At the very top of the staircase, I was sitting with this boy who looked to be about 14 or so...I was around 7 in the dream...The boy had curly light brown hair and blue eyes. He was mad at me because I was being sent to Earth before him. He said that he had been waiting longer and that it wasn't my turn and that it wasn't fare. I said that it wasn't my fault and if he had a problem with it to take it up with father! As I argued with this boy, I was remembering a beautiful garden...I know there is more to the dream...but I can't remember the rest now. I DO know that as I investigated this church, that dream came back to me in it's entirety, and I believe that it was not a dream...but a memory. I took comfort in that as I was making my decision to join this church.

...take it or leave it....

...it's the truth.

[Dr T]

Isn't there something about a "veil" and "not remembering"?

[Guest Yediyd]

Yes, Dr.T...there is...but the veil can be thin in places. and I believe that the Lord allowed me to have that memory because of the terrible confusion I was suffering as the daughter of an abusive minister.

...I know that heavenly father loves me and saw me as a confused and hurting child...he led me out of my confusion.

...and now that child within is having a BALL!!

She is a little devil, though.... she keeps playing with matches!

(most people call that hot flashes...but I KNOW the truth!!!)

[sixpacktr]

Isn't there something about a "veil" and "not remembering"?

Dr T.

Oh yeah, we believe in the veil and forgetfulness, but I think (again, according to me, not necessarily scriptural...BTW, I seem to be doing a lot of that lately! ) that sometimes the veil is very thin, and that, at times, we are given very small glimpses to help us on our journey here. Sleep to me is a time when we are more relaxed and susceptible to the spirit as well (many of the prophets in the OT, BOM, etc., were told to do things in dreams), and so Yed's comments do not sound strange to me...

FWIW...

[Gabelma]

Isn't there something about a "veil" and "not remembering"?

Yed's experience to me would be normal - although we have a veil everything is still in there, a veil merely obscures the view of eternity doesn't change it and I suspect it depends on your faith or what the Lord tells you or occurances in life that depend whether or not that veil is like the one the Queen would wear on her hat to Ascot or a full blown Burkha.

The majority of Latter Day Saints and people of many other faiths experience moments when that veil thins - this happens most frequently around time of death or birth - why for me a hospital is a very spiritual place there are people there on a frequent basis so close to the veil. In the temple the veil certainly thins considerably. I think people in so many different situations experience premonitions, deja vu etc most cultures have terms for these things, Clairvoyants, Witch Doctors, Sages, Mystics, Prophets are either revered or treated with fear or suspicion. And for me it happens when I set out to dedicate the time to the Lord in prayer. Also occurs during baptism.

One story is in the Book of Mormon with the Brother of Jared (Book of Ether) - where his faith removed the veil and he was able to see the Lord. When you read the story the Lord almost seems surprised that he has been seen, I am sure he isn't but to me it does come across that it was a power in the Brother of Jared that allowed this to happen not something the Lord did.

I don't know many Latter Day Saints that haven't had their own version of that story happen to them at least once in their lives. For me its those experiences above anything that convince me I am in the right church on the right path to know God. It makes sense of a lot of the 'weird' stuff on the Earth and that occurs inside of people that science has no explanation for. It also helps make sense of a lot of the academic stuff.

Charley

[Gabelma]

Ok, I'm gonna share something that I probably shouldn't...but here goes...

...As most of you know...I was not raised LDS. I was not taught about the pre-existence before three years ago...

...When I was a child (around 7, I think) I had a dream that I have never forgotten. I dreamed about a marble staircase (at least, it looked marble to me) it was HUGE and wide, and people were going up and down it. At the very top of the staircase, I was sitting with this boy who looked to be about 14 or so...I was around 7 in the dream...The boy had curly light brown hair and blue eyes. He was mad at me because I was being sent to Earth before him. He said that he had been waiting longer and that it wasn't my turn and that it wasn't fare. I said that it wasn't my fault and if he had a problem with it to take it up with father! As I argued with this boy, I was remembering a beautiful garden...I know there is more to the dream...but I can't remember the rest now. I DO know that as I investigated this church, that dream came back to me in it's entirety, and I believe that it was not a dream...but a memory. I took comfort in that as I was making my decision to join this church.

...take it or leave it....

...it's the truth.

Have you ever found out more about him>?

Charley

[Guest Yediyd]

No, but I often think about him and the name, "Tommy" comes to mind as I think about him. I'm not sure if that is his name in heaven or his name now...but I think I have met him since and I will see him again.

[Gabelma]

Charley,

That makes perfect sense to me. Not saying it is right, but it makes sense. I have often wondered about aborted fetuses, where they end up, and your experience helps...

Too often we in the church "poo poo" revelation, even though that is the bedrock the church is built on. They feel that only Pres Hinckley or maybe our local leaders should get it, but fail to realize that ALL of us are to be prophets (Numbers 11:29), that is our HF's desire. So your experience and that of your husband are to me perfectly in line with that...

I never ever knock revelation someone has received concerning themselves or their family even if it contradicts my revelation for mine - personally don't think what God has to say should always make sense and I would be surprised if it didn't seem contradictory. Even if someone tells me their prayers say the church isn't true I sometimes wonder if the answer is not that the church isn't true just its not right for them to join yet. I do wonder with some people that hear voices but at the same time so many people have these experiences we are either all medically insane or it is mostly right lol not sure I know what I am saying

Charley

[Guest Yediyd]

Just two years ago...I was babysitting this beautiful little black baby...his mother was 14, and running the streets...his aunt lived upstairs in the apartment above me...she asked me to wach him most of that summer...His name was Tyrone...but I rocked him and sniggled with him and called him my little "Tommy". It was just a private thing between me and this baby...but I think about "Tommy" every time I see a baby boy...and the race makes no difference...just a soft place in my heart that the Lord gave me.... :)

....No, I didn't name my son Tommy...his name is: Mike.

[Gabelma]

Just two years ago...I was babysitting this beautiful little black baby...his mother was 14, and running the streets...his aunt lived upstairs in the apartment above me...she asked me to wach him most of that summer...His name was Tyrone...but I rocked him and sniggled with him and called him my little "Tommy". It was just a private thing between me and this baby...but I think about "Tommy" every time I see a baby boy...and the race makes no difference...just a soft place in my heart that the Lord gave me.... :)

....No, I didn't name my son Tommy...his name is: Mike.

did you get revelation on the name? I know certain Jewish groups believe that names are 60% prophecy. With my son he was going to be named Isaac but when he was born he had such a serious expression lol there was no way I could name him something that ment laughter then a song popped into my head from the Backyardigans of all things the one about the Mermaid, the line 'I'm not only beautiful I am extra, extra tough' - so he was Gabriel - angel so beautiful and it means strong man/hero of God.

Charley

[Guest Yediyd]

No, none of this is revelation...just my thoughts and impressions....

...the dream was just that, a dream...but I believe that it is a foggy memory of a far distant place....

...again, these are just my thoughts and my minds meanderings...not teaching doctrine, here!

[Gabelma]

No, none of this is revelation...just my thoughts and impressions....

...the dream was just that, a dream...but I believe that it is a foggy memory of a far distant place....

...again, these are just my thoughts and my minds meanderings...not teaching doctrine, here!

appreciate that its not doctrine but for me in someways these experiences at least in my own life are why I am a Latter Day Saint and why my testimony remains inspite of other things that could make me doubt. These experiences to me are true glimpses of God - I think it was Joseph Smith that said if a man could gaze into heaven for just 5 minutes he would learn more than in a lifetime reading the Book of Mormon. And these for me are what many of us are blessed with.

I could walkaway from Church but it would involve me walking away from the things God has taught me. I get the impression from your posts its the way you feel?

Charley

[Traveler]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Where do we get all this information about the preexistence and the fall? Heaven was not even there.

I don't think Luke 10:18 (And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven) reveals a great battle.

I would add a couple of things not considered in post so far:

1. G-d is the king of what?

2. Were has G-d always existed? Especially prior to the creation mentioned in Genesis 1:1.

3 What is the literal translation of the ancient Hebrew of Genesis 1:1.

If one is to talk to an expert in ancient Hebrew - for example a jewish rabbi they would tell you that Genesis could be translated to say "When G-d first covenanted with man - G-d created the heaven and the earth."

The Traveler