D&c 19: Rogue Revelation

[Adomini22]

Tiancum, he isnt debating about living oracles. He really isnt saying that it didnt happen... he is just saying, why, what, where, how, what for....etc. His question is legit. Scriptural reference is a bit vague, so he was asking the "why" about suffering in Gethsemane, ........

[CrimsonKairos]

Adomini, I don't think Christ's sacrifice for sin was paying justice at all. In fact, I think his sacrifice works because it was an injustice. Take the Law of Moses...let's say an adulterer repents. The punishment for adultery was death by stoning. Now the adulterer isn't forgiven because the High Priest stones the spotless lamb in place of the adulterer. The adulterer is forgiven because he has godly sorrow, and because a spotless lamb has its blood shed. In that instance, justice isn't paid since no one is stoned even though the sin of adultery was committed. Thank you for your thoughts, though. They reflect my previous view of how the atonement works, but I no longer believe this penal-substitution theory, especially in light of scriptures like Alma 34 which describe Christ's sacrifice as overpowering justice, not complying with it.

Okay, now on to something incredibly exciting to me. Lately I've been pondering the atonement alot. I feel that the Lord has taught me through the Spirit many things which I had been incorrectly taught growing up. Mostly, it involved reading the scriptures and seeing the emphasis they place on the cross and the death of Christ as the power of salvation. Tonight, the Spirit has opened up something new to my understanding and I'd like to share it before I lose the clarity of vision I feel right now. I've had several old notions dispelled and several new notions revealed which frankly were staring me in the face the whole time.

I now believe the sacrifice for sin--the atonement--did begin in Gethsemane.

I am no longer confident that Christ suffered our pains, temptations and infirmities in Gethsemane. I believe he suffered them elsewhere, at other times, and likely during his forty day fast in the wilderness.

I no longer believe that God withdrew His presence and the Spirit's influence from Christ only on the cross.

I now believe that God and the Spirit were totally withdrawn from Christ in Gethsemane, and it was that awful change which so traumatized our Lord that it drew blood from his pores.

It's as though I had a conversation with the Spirit in my mind. As I pondered and sought answers from God about these issues, I felt as though the Holy Ghost asked me, "Where in the world does it say Christ had to experience mankind's temptations, pains and infirmities in a short period of time, in Gethsemane?"

As I thought about it I realized, "No scriptures explicitly say that. In fact, take Alma 7 which is quite explicit about Christ suffering our afflictions and temptations. It doesn't mention Gethsemane at all, let alone assert that Christ bled as a result of suffering those afflictions and temptations." I felt as though the Spirit nodded in approval and then asked, "What if Christ bleeding from every pore was not about suffering our pains and temptations at all? What if the bleeding from every pore was caused by something else completely?"

Then I realized what I had been overlooking this whole time. My recently acquired understanding of the atonement basically revolves around the concept that God shows us mercy--if we repent--because of the pity that God feels when He contemplates the injustices done to his Son. It is the injustices done to Christ that overpower what justice would do to us, and what justice would do to us--sinners--is bar us from celestial glory due to our imperfect obedience. Yet for Christ's sake, God will remit or erase or forget that we ever sinned, blotting out our sins and making our record of obedience reflect perfection as our Savior's does. This is my recent understanding that I've discussed in several previous threads.

I feel as though all that had been taught to me through the Spirit. Well tonight I felt as though the Spirit laid out for me the following:

1.) If Christ convinces God to remit our sins on account of his unjust suffering; and...

2.) If part of Christ's unjust treatment involved his illegal arrest, unlawful conviction, unjustified scourging, illegal treatment involving the crown of thorns and so on, and ultimately his unjust execution; and...

3.) If Christ had to suffer this unjust treatment alone w/o any aid as the scriptures say; then...

4.) God would have had to withdraw all heavenly influence or support from Jesus by the time Christ left Gethsemane and was arrested by the High Priest's guards.

I had been making the mistake of thinking that God didn't withdraw His support from Jesus until Christ cried out on the cross, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" Yet I had been including Christ's arrest, trial, and scourging as part of the overall injustice that arouses pity in God's heart for Christ's sake alone.

Well tonight it hit me: If the arrest, trial and scourging are part of the atonement or sacrifice for sin or injustice done to Christ, then he had to have suffered those things alone as well, which means God and the Spirit would have had to "forsake" Jesus before his arrest near Gethsemane, since the arrest was the beginning of the chain of illegal abuses that were to be heaped upon our Lord culminating in his death on Calvary.

As I realized this...that Christ was left alone in Gethsemane...it struck me that it was this sudden solitude bereft of any spiritual or heavenly aid that caused blood to come from every pore. I mean, his whole life, Jesus had been obedient to God and worthy of direct and full interaction with God and the Spirit. Contrarily, Satan, his followers and sons of Perdition are the only ones who will be 100% cut off from God and the Spirit and any good influence. Celestial glory entitles one to the presence of all three members of the Godhead; the Terrestrial Kingdom entitles one to the presence of the Son and Spirit; and the Telestial Kingdom only allows one to experience the influence of the Holy Ghost.

But Outer Darkness cannot even be touched by the Spirit's presence. It is the furthest from God that one can get. Those who dwell there are completely cut off from God. When Jesus was "abandoned" by God in order that Christ might perform the sacrifice for sin alone, in essence Christ experienced the absolute separation from God that Satan and sons of Perdition experience.

I felt like I could see Christ in Gethsemane, on his knees, begging God not to leave him alone to do what he had to do...begging for any other way to be made available to atone for sin...and then I felt like I could see the perfect, pure, Son of God shrouded in the darkness as he was left completely to himself...the Son of God suddenly experiencing what a son of Perdition feels. And then I felt that I understood, for the first time, what it was that caused Christ's capillaries to burst and blood to dampen his skin.

Then I realized that the atonement really did begin in Gethsemane, for it was there that Christ was left to himself to leave the garden and drink from the bitter cup awaiting him (his arrest, trial, scourging, crucifixion).

As these realizations unfolded in my mind, a more complete understanding of D&C 19 unfolded as well. In the original post of this thread, I explained how I interpreted D&C 19 in light of my recent understanding of the atonement. But that understanding still included the assumption that Christ bled from every pore in part because he was suffering all our pains and whatnot all at once. Also, that understanding included the assumption that God and the Spirit had not yet abandoned Christ and would not leave Jesus to himself until he hung on the cross.

However, as I participated with the Spirit tonight in a little Q&A, I realized that I had likely been mistaken about Christ suffering our pains, temptations, etc... in Gethsemane. Let me again reproduce the verses from D&C 19 that are so often used to show that Christ suffered the punishment for our sins in Gethsemane. I feel that I now understand what they truly mean. My clarifications appear in bold type inside the brackets below:

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, [namely, being cut off from God in Gethsemane, then facing alone my illegal arrest, trial, scourging and crucifixion without the Father's presence to sustain me], that they might not suffer [separation from the Father] if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer [separation from the Father] even as I [suffered separation from the Father from Gethsemane until my resurrection];

18 Which suffering [that I faced alone] caused myself, even God [the Son], the greatest of all, to tremble because of [the] pain [that engulfed me as a result of being left spiritually alone like those in Outer Darkness], and to bleed at every pore [due to my agonizing abandonment], and to suffer both body and spirit [as every last bit of God and the Spirit's influence withdrew from me]—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup [that included facing my arrest, trial, scourging and crucifixion without my Father's support], and shrink [from going through with all of those things alone, to the point of my asking the Father thrice to remove the bitter cup if He willed]—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I [said, "Father, thy will be done, not mine," and] partook [of the bitter cup which included feeling the torture of one banished to Outer Darkness on top of the physical agony that attended my scourging and crucifixion] and finished my preparations unto the children of men [through my sufferings, death and resurrection].

20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

I feel that I finally know what Christ is saying in those verses. Verse 20 always provided a clue as to what he was describing. In that verse Jesus compares what he went through while bleeding from every pore, with what we feel when the Spirit withdraws from us in any degree. What is the ultimate punishment for sin? Spiritual death...separation from God...withdrawal of the Spirit's influence in this life and being barred from entering God's presence eternally.

To me, Jesus is saying in those verses that he bled from every pore because he was forced to temporarily become a son of Perdition in terms of his connection to the Father. Christ was completely cut off from the Father or the Spirit's sustaining influence. For one who has enjoyed perfect communion with the Father from "day one," even premortally, the shock and torture of suddenly being 100% cut off from that communion would understandably have a terrible effect not just spiritually, but physically as well.

Think about a time when you were worried for a loved one, or were anticipating something awful in your near future (divorce, losing your job, etc). Even though this worry or anxiety is the result of thoughts, these negative thoughts have the power to manifest themselves physically in the form of sweaty palms, or an upset stomach, or headaches, or illness, and so on.

I think it's understandable that Christ's body would have such a violent reaction as a result of going from having perfect communion with the Father and Spirit to having no communion with the Father and Spirit.

Have you ever been away from your parents, siblings or spouse during a difficult personal trial? Have you been unable to talk to or contact them when you need them the most? Do you remember what it feels like to have to "go it alone" when you need support the most? Did you feel physically unwell in any way even though your anxiety was the result of thoughts and emotions?

I no longer believe that Christ bled in Gethsemane because he was suffering a concentrated dose of infinite pains, infirmities and temptations corresponding to ours.

I believe that God had to "abandon" Christ in Gethsemane so Christ could face his subsequent arrest, trial, scourging and crucifixion alone so that he could say, "I have done it without any aid. Remember how I was arrested illegally at night? I suffered that alone. Remember how I was subject to a mock trial replete with illegalities and false witnesses? I suffered that alone. Remember the torture inflicted on me by Roman flagellation? I suffered that alone. Remember my life's blood being shed on the cross? I suffered that alone. Therefore, for my sake Father, forgive these repentant sinners of their past misdeeds."

I now believe it was this awful and all-encompassing spiritual separation that caused Christ to bleed from every pore in Gethsemane, and which caused him to beg the Father three times to remove the impending bitter cup.

So now I do believe that the atonement or sacrifice for sin--which Christ had to do alone--began in Gethsemane when God and the Spirit withdrew completely from Jesus.

D&C 19 and even Mosaih 3:7 seem clearer to me now. I will end by adding my clarifications to Mosiah 3:7 as I did with D&C 19:16-20. Mosiah 3:5-6 talks about what Christ will go through during his mortal life, and what he will do such as casting out devils, etc... Verse 7 continues to explain what he will undergo durng mortality, and then ends by talking about Christ bleeding from every pore. Again, my clarifications appear in bold type within brackets below:

7 And lo, [as] he [goes forth in mortality, he] shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, [in Gethsemane] blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish [at having to be cut off from the Father in order that he might atone by himself] for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.

Suddenly all these quotes from GA's make sense now. I no longer wonder, "Why do they mention Gethsemane in connection with the sacrifice for sin that occurred on the cross? What did Gethsemane have to do with it? How can they say the atonement began in Gethsemane?"

I still don't believe the penal-substitution in Gethsemane theory, nor do I believe that the bleeding in Gethsemane was caused by Christ being forced to suffer in a span of three or so hours in Gethsemane the pains, infirmities and temptations of mankind.

If Christ had to experience all those things in one go instead of spread out over his whole life, it is more likely to me that such a condensed exposure to pain, temptation and mortal infirmities would have occurred during his forty day fast, for example.

These thoughts taste of truth, to me. I humbly submit them for your consideration. Ponder them. Read the scriptures. Consult the Spirit. You need not agree with me. I myself am open to continuing light and knowledge that the Lord sees fit to dispense to me as I continue to seek out a more perfect understanding of this most important of all doctrines, the root of Christianity: The atonement of Christ our Lord. To God alone the glory.

[BenRaines]

I find nothing to disagree with that understanding. Well said

Ben Raines

[Annabelli]

CrimsonKairos: Isn't Lent the symbolic observance of Gethsemane? (the period of 40 weekdays before Easter as a period of prayer, penance, fasting, and self-denial); To make one's self worthy to spiritually receive the Atonement.

How does the LDS Church observe Easter Sunday...The Day of Atonement? I am very confused about this in all sincerity.

[CrimsonKairos]

Well Easter Sunday technically is not the Day of Atonement. Christ was crucified on Passover weekend, according to the Jewish calendar.

I don't know anything about Lent, really. Jason or anyone else want to fill in our knowledge gap?

[Annabelli]

Isn't Matthew chapter six, The Lord's Prayer, consistent with the prayers Jesus said at Gethsemane?

Didn't John the Baptist prophesies the Lord's coming and the crucifixion in Luke, chapter 3? Luke 3:3 he preached "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."

[lewisqic]

CK, have you ever read the passage called "Significance of Gethsemane" by Hyrum L. Andrus? It is rather fascinating and quite relevant to this topic, it may give you further answers to the questions that your asking. It is quite lengthy, but i will post it here anyway for those who wish to read it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Significance of Gethsemane

Hyrum L. Andrus

1998 Hyrum L. Andrus. All rights reserved.

I appreciate being with you this evening and discussing what, to me, is the central doctrine of the great plan of life and salvation. On one occasion the Prophet Joseph Smith was asked the question "What are the fundamental principles of your religion?" It might be worth our time to pause and consider what we would give as an answer to this question. Many of us might say that eternal marriage is the fundamental principle of our religion. Others might say the three degrees of glory. Still others might say the genius of the church organization.

While all of these are important, let me give you the Prophet's answer to the question. He said, "The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and the Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it ..." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 121; hereafter cited as TPJS).

I would like to talk tonight, my brothers and sisters, on the subject of the atonement, as the basis of all else in the divine plan of life and salvation.

Many times as we talk about the atonement, we emphasize the physical aspects of that great act. We speak about the crown of thorns that was placed upon the head of Christ. We talk about the scourging he underwent, and then we talk about how excruciatingly painful it must have been to have nails driven into his hands and into his feet, and finally, how terrible it was to hang on a cross until death came. These are vital and important features of the atonement.

But there is also a spirtual dimension to the atonement that we need to understand. It is about this feature of the atonement that I propose to speak tonight.

To begin, may I suggest that we ask ourselves this question: Where was Christ when he suffered to such an extent that blood came from every pore of his body?

I think you will say that he was in the Garden of Gethsemane, there at the base of the Mount of Olives. Where were the Roman soldiers at that time? Where were the Jewish persecuters? They were not present. Those who were present were his three chief apostles, and, due to the lateness of the hour, they were drowsy and had fallen asleep. Thus, even with no one around to inflict punishment upon him physically, Jesus suffered to such an extent that the physical tissues of his body broke down and blood flowed from every pore. The real question is, then, What made him suffer--what produced that kind of pain within him?

May I suggest that we need to go to the spiritual realm for the answer. We need to consider something more than the physical experiences that he underwent in the scourging, the humiliation, and the nailing of his body upon the cross.

Before we talk about the spiritual dimensions of the atonement, there are certain preliminary, or fundamental, concepts which we must understand as a basis for our discussion.

First, we must know something about the divine nature of God. By that I mean that although our Father in Heaven, for example, has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's, he also possesses what may be termed a "divine nature." Let me illustrate. In the Prophet Joseph Smith's great statement concerning the First Vision, he describes the Father and the Son as they came to him that beautiful spring morning in 1820. He said, "I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun ..." Think about this for a minute. He said he saw a brilliant light exactly over his head which would eclipse the light of the sun at noonday. He then continued, "When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air" (Joseph Smith 2:16-17).

These two personages were the Father and the Son. They had physical bodies--bodies of flesh and bones--as tangible as man's. But there was something else about them. They were glorified beings. They had centered in them a brilliance of glory. It is this divine feature of God's nature that we call his glory, or his divine nature. This brilliant element centered in them, and, as it was manifested, it eclipsed the light of the sun at noonday.

On another occasion, the Prophet Joseph Smith spoke about the divine nature of God. He said, "God Almighty Himself dwells in eternal fire; flesh and blood cannot go there, for all corruption is devoured by the fire." He then quoted the Apostle Paul, who in turn was quoting the book of Deuteronomy: "Our God is a consuming fire." Finally, Joseph Smith explained, "When our flesh is quickened by the Spirit, there will be no blood in this tabernacle. Some dwell in higher glory than other.... Immortality dwells in everlasting burnings" (TPJS, p. 367).

God, then, possesses not only a physical body--a body of flesh and bones--but he possesses divine attributes and divine powers of glory as well. These are living powers. These are powers of light.

The Spirit, or his glory, that centers in him emanates from his presence and fills the immensity of space. It quickens and gives life to all things throughout his vast domain. The Spirit, or glory of God, cannot quicken and give life unless it is a living power. It is a livforce and power of intelligence. We call God's glory intelligence and hence the statement, "The glory of God is intelligence" (D&C 93:36). Our Father in Heaven possesses not only a corporeal, or physical, nature but also a divine nature.

Let us remember this point as doctrine basic to our understanding of this great concept of the infinite atonement of Christ.

The second basic concept that is important to know something about is the state of life that existed on earth prior to the fall of Adam. In his Lectures on Faith, the Prophet Joseph Smith gives this explanation:

After man was created, he was not left without intelligence or understanding, to wander in darkness and spend an existence in ignorance and doubt ... as to the real fact by whom he was created, or unto whom he was ammendable for his conduct. God conversed with him face to face. In his presence he was permitted to stand, and from his own mouth he was permitted to receive instruction. He heard his voice, walked before him and gazed upon his glory, while intelligence burst upon his understanding, and enabled him to give names to the vast assemblage of his Maker's work. (Lectures on Faith, No. 2)

There was no veil, and Adam and the whole earth were enveloped in glory. These divine spiritual powers that the Prophet beheld in the First Vision, that would eclipse the light of the sun at noonday, enveloped the earth. They were living powers. They were powers of life, so that no death prevailed. The order of things as they then existed was quite different from that which we now know. For example, in the first chapter of the Book of Moses we have the account of Moses being caught up into a high mountain, and there he saw God face to face. The record states that "the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence" (Moses 1:2).

Adam and the whole earth were in a similar state prior to the fall. That state is referred to as being in the presence of God. It is a state of glory, and we refer to the earth as being in a state of paradisiacal glory. This fact is essential, because the atonement was made to bring man back into a similar state--to redeem man from a situation in which he now finds himself, one in which he is subject to a state of spiritual death and in which the living powers of God's glory are no longer manifested significantly in his life. The great design of the atonement is not merely to forgive man of his sins and resurrect him, but, in addition, to develope these living spiritual powers within him and eventually to renew the earth and then glorify it.

In order to see the doctrine of the atonement in the proper light, it is also necessary to see in some respects the ultimate objective to be achieved by it. The Prophet Joseph Smith once made this explanation: "This earth will be rolled back into the presence of God, and crowned with celestial glory" (TPJS, p. 181). The atonement of Christ was made so that this great purpose might be achieved, that the earth might ultimately be glorified and brought back into God's presence.

Three concepts, then, are essential to understand as a foundation for us to comprehend the spiritual dimensions of Christ's atonement. First, we must understand something about God's divine nature. Second, we must understand something about the state that the earth was brought to in the creation and the change that took place at the time of the fall. Third, we must see the great objective of the atonement, not only to give remission of sin and institute the resurrection of man and of the earth, but also to endow the faithful with the divine attributes and powers of God's glory. and bring them back into his presence, crowned with a fulness of his glory.

With this as a background, let me now turn to the subject of the nature of Christ, to see why he was the only individual appropriately prepared to make a payment such as the one required to achieve the purposes of the gospel plan. He was the Son of God. Ask yourselves this question: What kind of a son would that being have whom the Prophet Joseph Smith beheld in the Sacred Grove? The Father, as I said previously, is a being with a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's. But he also possesses a divine nature. There are living spiritual powers and divine attributes centered in him as a person, so great that the irradiance would eclipse the light of the sun at noonday.

Now let us suppose that that person had a son. And he did. He begot Jesus as his son here in this mortal state. But what kind of a person would a son of such a divine being be? What would Jesus receive from his Father? Would he receive merely physical attributes, or would there be centered in him, in addition, the divine powers and attributes of his Father, at least in embryo, so that he would partake of not just the physical nature but also of the divine nature of his Father? Now this is the point I would like you to see. Jesus, as he came to this earth, was a being different not only in regard to his magestic sinlessness, but also in the nature of his organization. He was the only person who was conceived on earth after the fall who had centered in him, in conception, the divine powers and attributes of life, or glory, that Adam lost by the fall. He was the only being who was conceived and born on this earth with both physical attributes and the divine attributes of eternal life planted in him at conception.

That means, essentially, that Jesus came to this earth the first time in glory. That is, he had glory centered in him by virtue of his unique conception and birth. Sometimes we talk about the first and the second coming of Christ and make a distinction in this way: we say that the first time he came merely as a physical being, and he submitted himself to the will of men and allowed himself to be crucified. Essentially, he was merely a physical being. But when he comes the second time, he will come in his glory. He will come and remove the veil; and as he does, the brilliance of his glory will be as a consuming fire that will literally consume the wicked, renew the earth, and return it to a state of paradisiacal glory.

But the fact is this: When Christ was conceived the first time, he had centered in him the glory and power of his Father. It was not made manifest physically to men, but, nevertheless, the glory of God in embryo was centered in him by his unique conception.

For example, let me turn to the scriptures and give their testimony on this important insight. In Alma 5, Alma was talking about the near advent of Christ in his first coming. He said: "Yea, thus saith the Spirit he put this statement not on the basis of a personal opinion, but on the basis of revelation to his people: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand; yea, the Son of God cometh in his glory ..." Note how he says the son of God was going to come: "... the Son of God cometh in his glory, in his might, majesty, power, and dominion." Alma then repeated his statement: "Yea, my beloved brethren, I say unto you, that the Spirit saith: Behold the glory of the King of all the earth; and also the King of heaven shall very soon shine forth among all the children of men" (Alma 5:50, italics added).

Alma was talking about Christ's first coming, not merely as a physical being; he was talking about Christ's coming, possessing divine attributes and divine powers. The glory of the King of heaven and of earth was to shine forth among the children of men.

A few years later Alma again bore witness of the coming of Christ and stressed the above fact, stating: "Not many days hence the Son of God shall come in his glory; and his glory shall be the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace, equity, and truth ..." (Alma 9:26, italics added).

Nephi also testified after he beheld in vision the earthly ministry of Christ among the Jews: "I beheld that he went forth ministering unto the people, in power and great glory ..." (Nephi 11:28, italics added).

Jesus did not minister merely as a physical being. He possessed the divine nature. So he went forth ministering to the people in power and great glory.

Let me turn to one other illustration that throws light on this basic point. In 3 Nephi 19, we have one of the most sacred experiences recounted in scripture. It concerns the second day of Christ's ministry among the Nephites. It is one of the most sacred experiences that men in mortality have been privileged to partake of. I like to call 3 Nephi 19 the "Holy of Holies" of the scriptures. You recall that during Christ's first day of ministry among the Nephites, he taught them the basic program of the gospel and commanded them to be baptized, with the promise that he would then baptize them with the Holy Ghost and with fire. As they met together the seccond day to fulfill the commandments of the Savior, the record says: "And it came to pass when they were all baptized and had come up out of the water, the Holy Ghost did fall upon them, and they were filled with the Holy Ghost and with fire. And behold they were encircled about as if it were by fire; and it came down from heaven, and the multitude did witness it ..." (3 Nephi 19:13-14).

It was like the day of Pentacost, when cloven tongues of fire rested upon the apostles and elders, and they received the wonderful gifts and blessings given to those who are endowed with God's glory, or his divine nature.

During the course of this divine manifestation, Jesus made his appearance among the Nephites on the second day; and as he prayed in their behalf to the Father, the glory that he possessed shown from him and enveloped them, and literally transfigured them in his presence. The record states that "the light of his countenance did shine upon them, and behold they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness, yea, even there could be nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof" (3 Nephi 19:25).

Here was a very significant endowment of Christ's power and glory. The Nephites were literally brought back into the presence of God in a spiritual sense, and his glory was manifested to them in a phenomenal way.

After giving them this great blessing, Jesus then reminisced about his earthly ministry among the Jews. He said, "So great faith have I never seen among all the Jews; wherefore I could not show unto them so great miracles, because of their unbelief" (3 Nephi 19:35, italics added).

Note that Jesus did not say, "I would like to have shown the Jews the same kind of divine endowment that you have received, but I did not then have these spiritual powers and therefore I could not." Instead, his statement implies that he had these same spiritual powers when he was among the Jews and that he could have manifested them unto the Jews, but he did not because they lacked faith. The point is that when Jesus ministered among the Jews, he had such powers as he later revealed to the Nephites. He came to earth not merely as a physical being, but as a being endowed with the glory and power of his Father. He was conceived with great spiritual powers within him.

Joseph Smith's Inspired Revision of the Bible bears witness to the spiritual power which Jesus possessed during his earthly ministry among the Jews. Therein John said of Jesus: "For he whom God hath sent, speaketh the words of God; for God giveth him not the Spirit by measure, for he dwelleth in him, even the fulness" (I. R., John 3:34, italics added). The Prophet Joseph Smith also testified of Christ: "None ever were perfect but Jesus; and why was He perfect? Because He was the Son of God, and had the fullness of the Spirit, and greater power than any man." (TPJS, 187-188, italics added).

This does not mean that Jesus radiated glory and power to all who saw him during his earthly ministry. Joseph Smith made it clear that a person who has glory (if he has a physical body) in some way has the means of manifesting his glory or of withholding the manifestation of glory. For example, in D&C 129, the Prophet is speaking of those persons whom we call "the spirits of just men made perfect"--those who have endured faithfully to the end of mortality in the gospel plan and therefore are justified by the atonement of Christ. As they enter the spirit world, these spirits are endowed with glory and therby are made perfect in that spiritual state. In D&C 129, Joseph Smith said of such an individual: "If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear" (D&C 129:6, italics added). Joseph Smith also made it clear that a resurrected being can either manifest or withhold the manifestation of his glory. He explained: "A spirit cannot come but in glory; an angel that is, a resurrected being has flesh and bones; we see not their glory" (TPJS, 162).

For example, when Jesus was resurrected and endowed with the fulness of the glory and power of his Father, the first person to see him was Mary, there at the tomb. She did not then behold a glorified being, but a personage whom she first took to be the gardener. When she finally recognized him, she did not behold a being of glory. Yet Christ then had the fulness of the glory of the Father centered in him.

Again Jesus walked along the road to Emmaus with his two disciples, and again he withheld his glory. The disciples did not behold a being of glory (see Luke 24:13ff).

Thus, a person who has a physical body has, in some way, the means either to manifest or to withhold the manifestation of his glory. Apparently when Christ was conceived on earth and grew up, the Father placed him under restrictions not to manifest his glory except according to the faith of the people. The apostle John bore testimony that he and the apostles did behold his glory. He begins the gospel of John with this statement: "We beheld his glory, the glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth" (John 1:14). But to the Jews in general, Jesus did not manifest his glory.

As we analyze the nature of Christ in that light, it can be seen that he was a dual being. He was born of a mortal mother from whom he acquired, first, that share of physical attributes and powers that one would normally receive from his mother. Secondly, from his mortal mother, he acquired the elements of mortality. I suppose he received the blood that flowed through his veins from his mother. The Prophet Joseph Smith indicates that a resurrected and glorified being such as our Father in Heaven does not have blood in his veins. Thus, from Mary, Jesus received that share of physical attributes and traits that one would normally receive from his mother and, in addition, the elements of mortality.

From his Father, Jesus came to earth possessing the powers and attributes of eternal life--not merely physical life--he could testify of himself: "As the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself" (John 5:26). How does the Father have life in himself? Does he have merely physical life? or does he also have the powers and attributes of eternal life--glory (see D&C 88:4, Moses 6:59)--within himself? In the same way, or on the same principal, Christ had life in himself.

President Joseph F. Smith gave one of the finest statements we have concerning Christ and his divine nature. President Smith (not Joseph Fielding Smith, but his father) said:

The Father of Jesus Christ in the flesh is the God of Heaven. Therefore Jesus, as He declared, received the power of life from His Father and was never subject unto death but had life in Himself. Because of this power He overcame death and the grave and became master of the resurrection and means of salvation to us all. ...

Mary, the virgin girl, who had never known mortal man, was His mother. God by her begot His Son Jesus Christ, and He was born into the world with power and intelligence like that of His Father.

He was God with us. He was indeed Emmanuel which you know means God with us for he came for a purpose and He possessed power that no human being ever possessed. He had power to lay down his life and take it up again. He had power to resist His murderers; if he had so willed it they could never have taken his life. He came for a purpose-what was it-to redeem man from death. Life everlasting came into the world by the death and sacrificing of one man. (Quoted in Hyrum L. Andrus, God, Man and the Universe, pp. 401-402).

Jesus was unique. He was conceived with the divine nature of his Father in him, and for that reason he had powers of life within him that we do not have. In this sense he was distinctly different-the only person conceived on the earth since the fall with these divine powers planted in him by conception. These were the same divine powers which Adam lost by the fall. These Jesus acquired by conception as the Son of God.

We should realize that Jesus was not just another human being walking around on earth. Abinadi gave us his great testimony of Christ, stating: "I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people" (Mosiah 15:1). God himself, It wasn't just a sinless man who came to the Jews. It was the God of this earth, and he was conceived in such a way that he had the powers of deity within him as he dwelt in mortality.

As I have said, he had a dual nature. From his mother he received physical attributes and also the elements of mortality. From his father he received physical attributes and the divine powers of the Spirit or glory which his Father possessed.

By repressing the power of the divine within him so that he did not manifest them even for his own benefit, he acted as if he were a mortal man; and he was, in fact, a mortal man. The scriptures indicate that he did not use these divine powers to gratify his own desires and his own physical needs. For example, when he had fasted for forty days, he was obviously very hungry. Lucifer then came to him, taunting him and suggesting that if he were the Son of God (that implied that God has power to organize things out of primal substance; and if Jesus were the Son of God he would have the same kind of power within him) he could use that power, make a stone into a loaf of bread, and appease his hunger.

Could Jesus have done this? The answer is, yes; he could have done so. Yet, he did not use his divine power to gratify his own needs physically. Instead, he suppressed the divine power which he possessed so he could have the same kinds of experiences that we have and be proved in a mortal state. For all practical intents he was a mortal man, and he went through mortality suffering the kinds of experiences that we suffer-pain, sorrow, fatigue, thirst. Whereas, if he had had the power of God active within him, it would have strengthened him, and he would not have experienced the mortal program that is designed for us all to experience. He had to repress the divine within himself to be like us. We, on the other hand, have to acquire the divine nature to be like him-a rather interesting reverse situation.

Christ did not always repress his divine power. There were times when the Father apparently permitted him to activate the divine. And as these divine powers of glory within him were activated, the veil faded away, and he had the privilege of communing openly and directly with his Father in Heaven. An interesting insight on this point comes from Joseph Smith's Inspired Revision of the Bible. It speaks of Christ many years before the time of his ministry began, probably during his teenage years, and states: "And it came to pass that Jesus grew up with his brethren, and waxed strong, and waited upon the Lord for the time of his ministry to come. And ... he spake not as other men, neither could he be taught; for he needed not that any man should teach him" (I.R., Matthew 3:24-25). What does this statement imply? People speak out of the background of their experience and their understanding, do they not? We sometimes say that trite minds talk about trite things, and that great minds talk about great things. If Jesus, during his teenage years, spoke not as other men, what obviously was his background experience-that which was mortal or that which was divine? Furthermore, neither could he be taught, not that he was obstinate or unteachable, but he needed not that any man should teach him. What does this imply? He had a source of knowledge that was not merely mortal. He was taught directly by the Father and at times had the veil fade away and had an experience with the Father in which he was taught directly by that glorified being.

Apparently Jesus repressed the divine within him at times to become like we are. But apparently there were other times when Christ was permitted to activate the divine nature he possessed and to draw upon the spiritual powers as a great source of knowlege, revelation, and truth. As a result he developed spiritually and acquired knowledge and strength and power to live without sin and, finally, to fulfill his great mission upon the earth.

When Christ finally went to Gethsemane, he did not go merely to make a sinless human sacrifice. Instead, he went there to make an infinite and eternal sacrifice. Note the testimony of Amulek: "For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man note that this was not going to be a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice" (Alma 34:10). Flesh and blood, regardless of how sanctified they may be, are not infinite or eternal, except as the flesh is quickened by the Spirit. Flesh and blood of themselves are not infinite and eternal. An infinite and eternal sacrifice could not be made by the sacrifice of the physical alone. Jesus did not make an infinite and eternal sacrifice merely by offering physical attributes and powers of life-merely by physical suffering and physical death. He had within himself the glory and power of his Father, and he had developed the powers of eternal life within himself to the degree that when he went to Gethsemane he could offer both the physical and the divine attributes of life which he possessed and thereby make an infinite and eternal sacrifice. Not that the physical aspects of the atonement were unimportant. These were part of the sacrifice which he offered. He gave back to mortality its just dues. But it was by offering the attributes and powers of eternal life, or glory, that Jesus made an infinite and eternal sacrifice.

Let me review a few points I have made: First, the Father is a glorified being, possessing the powers of eternal, as well as physical, life. Second, Jesus was actually his Son on earth, acquiring in conception the divine as well as the physical nature of his Father. Third, having had these divine powers and attributes planted in him in embryo in his conception on earth, Jesus then lived without sin and matured in the powers of the spirit during his mortal existence. Finally, as Christ came to Gethsemane, he was prepared to offer both divine powers and attributes of life and the sinless physical body he possessed to make an infinite and eternal sacrifice.

Joseph Smith received a revelation that gives us vital insights into the way or the means by which Jesus suffered in Gethsemane. This revelation was given through the Prophet to Martin Harris. Martin, like some of us at times, needed a reprimand. He had his personal weaknesses, and the Lord loved him enough to labor personally with him, giving him one of the classic statements we now have on the doctrine of the atonement. The Lord began: "Wherefore, I command you to repent-repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore-how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not." Christ then explained: "For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all men, that they might not suffer if they would repent. "But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I," the Lord declared; "which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit-and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink-nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men." Having declared these great truths, Christ returned to admonishing Martin, and in his next statement he gave us one of the finest statements in all scripture concerning the nature of his own suffering. Jesus said: "Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit" (D&C 19:15-20).

Martin would suffer to the smallest or least degree as Jesus suffered in Gethsemane, at a time when the Spirit was withdrawn from Martin. That withdrawal occurred when Martin Harris, through neglect, lost the 116 manuscript pages of the Book of Lehi. You remember that he and the Prophet were in Pennsylvania translating, and they finished the first unit, or the first book, of the Plates of Mormon. It was called the Book of Lehi. Martin Harris wanted to take it home to show it to his wife and some other people to appease them and check some of the ridicule to which he had been subjected. After considerable coaxing, the Prophet was finally given permission by the Lord to let him do so. But due to Martin's neglect, this record was lost.

A few days later Joseph Smith went to Manchester, the home of his father, where he sent word to Martin (not knowing that the manuscript had been lost) to come to the Smith home and have breakfast the next morning and make further plans to complete the translation of the Book of Mormon. Mother Smith picks the story up at that point, stating:

At eight o'clock we set the victuals on the table, as we were expecting him every moment. We waited until nine and he came not-till ten, and he was not there-till eleven, and still he did not make his appearance. But at half past twelve we saw him walking with a slow and measured tread towards the house, his eyes fixed thoughtfully upon the ground. On coming to the gate, he stopped, instead of passing through, and got up on the fence, and sat there some time with his hat drawn over his eyes. At length he entered the house. Soon after which we sat down at the table, Mr. Harris with the rest. He took up his knife and fork as if he were going to use them, but immediately dropped them. Hyrum, observing this, said, "Martin, why do you not eat; are you sick?" Upon which Mr. Harris pressed his hands upon his temples, and cried out in a tone of deep anguish, "Oh, I have lost my soul! I have lost my soul!" (Lucy Mack Smith, History of Joseph Smith, p. 128).

Then Joseph, who had not expressed his concern to that point, asked him if he had lost the manuscript, and he confessed that he had. Pandemonium broke loose. The prophet wailed and moaned, as did Martin, in the depths of sorrow, despair, and remorse. Mother Smith later gave this observation of that experience, stating:

I remember that day of darkness, both within and without. To us, at least, the heavens seemed clothed with blackness, and the earth shrouded with gloom. I have often said within myself, that if a continual punishment as severe as that which we experienced on that occasion, were to be inflicted upon the most wicked characters who ever stood upon the footstool of the Almighty-if even their punishment were no greater than that, I should feel to pity their condition. (Ibid., p. 132).

This is the experience to which the Lord referred in D&C 19. He first said to Martin, "If you do not repent, you will suffer as I suffered, and I suffered to the extent that blood came from every pore in my body." He then gave Martin an insight to how that suffering was imposed when he explained that Martin had suffered the same way he suffered, in the smallest or least degree, when the Spirit was withdrawn from Martin. If Martin suffered the same kind of suffering-not to the same degree-that Jesus suffered when the Spirit was withdrawn from him, then how did Jesus suffer? On what principle? As a result of what fact? If Martin suffered because of a withdrawal of the Spirit and if it was the same kind of suffering that Jesus suffered, then Jesus must have suffered on the same principle-by a withdrawal of the Spirit or glory he possessed.

May I suggest that there were four basic reasons why Christ had to suffer a withdrawal of the Spirit in making the atonement. First, this was what the law of God required to pay the debt of justice for the transgressions of Adam and man. Let us ask this question, What does divine justice require as payment for broken law? Admittedly several baneful consequences result from transgression, but the most important thing that happens is the withdrawal of the Spirit of God from the offending person. This was what happened in the war in heaven. Lucifer and his hosts were "thrust down from the presence of God" (D&C 76:25), which means that the Spirit or glory of God was withdrawn from them. They suffered a spiritual death-a withdrawal of the living powers of the Spirit.

Again, what was the most important consequence that resulted from the transgression of Adam in the Garden of Eden? The central thing that happened was that Adam, and the whole earth, suffered a spiritual death-a withdrawal of the Spirit or glory that had been on the earth before the fall.

And again, what happens to those who transgress the laws of God here in mortality? In Alma 34 we are told what happens to those who procrastinate their repentance. It states: "For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked" (Alma 34:35).

As the Spirit withdraws there is an aching, hollow feeling within. The heavens seem to be brass overhead, and there is actually a withdrawal of living, quickening powers from the offending individual. The end result is darkness of mind and an inner anguish and pain of soul.

Jesus paid the debt of sin for all men. If the debt of divine law required a withdrawal of the Spirit, Jesus had to experience a withdrawal of the Spirit to the extent that he justly paid for the sins of all men. That required a unique person-a person who had these spiritual powers centered in him on an independent basis, on the same basis that our Father in Heaven has these powers centered in himself, and to the degree that he could make an infinite atonement. Jesus was the only person born on this earth who was equipped to make such a sacrifice.

The second reason that Jesus suffered a withdrawal of the Spirit in Gethsemane and on the cross was to prove him to the degree that he had been blessed with the spiritual powers and revelations of the Father. Brigham Young explained:

I ask, is there a reason for men and women being exposed more constantly and more powerfully, to the power of the enemy, by having visions than by not having them? There is simply this-God never bestows upon His people, or upon an individual, superior blessings without a severe trial to prove them, to prove that individual, or that people, to see whether they will keep their covenants with Him, and keep in remembrance what He has shown them. Then the greater the vision, the greater the display of the power of the enemy. And when such individuals are off their guard they are left to themselves, as Jesus was. For this express purpose the Father withdrew His spirit from His Son, at the time he was to be crucified. Jesus had been with his Father, talked with Him, dwelt in His bosom, and knew all about heaven, about making the earth, about the transgression of man, and what would redeem the people, and that he was the character who was to redeed the sons of earth, and the earth itself from all sin that had come upon it. The light, knowledge, power, and glory with which he was clothed were far above, or exceeded that of all others who had been upon the earth after the fall, consequently at the very moment, at the hour when the crisis came for him to offer up his life, the Father withdrew Himself, withdrew His Spirit, and cast a vail over him. That is what made him sweat blood. If he had had the power of God upon him, he would not have sweat blood; but all was withdrawn from him, and a veil was cast over him, and he then plead with the Father not to forsake him. "No," says the Father, "you must have your trials, as well as others." (Journal of Discourses, III, pp. 205-206, italics added)

If you want an explanation by a prophet of God why Jesus suffered, or by what means he suffered, here is one. He suffered to the extent that blood came from every pore of his body because the spiritual powers of the Father's glory were withdrawn. I suppose that Jesus also repressed the glory he had in himself, by virtue of the divine works he had accomplished.

The third reason that Jesus suffered a withdrawal of the Spirit is explained very briefly and succinctly in the eighty-eighth section of the Doctrine and Covenants, where the Lord indicates that Christ decended below all things that he might comprehend all things. The revelation states of Christ: "He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth" (D&C 88:6).

Jesus descended below all things, into the realms of spiritual darkness, that he might intelligently comprehend the depths as well as the heights of life-from the depths of total spiritual death to the heights of his Father's presence. This he did that he might comprehend all things, that he might extend his glory in all things and hereby be in and through all things, the light of truth. Alma likewise explained that Jesus suffered according to the flesh that he might "know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities" (Alma 7:12).

This, I believe, is one factor in having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. There has never been a human being on earth who has sunk so far into the depths of spiritual darkness but that Jesus has been below him and knows how to lead him intelligently out of that state of spiritual darkness into the presence of God, if that person will believe in him and obey his will. Christ knows the depths as well as the heights and can lead a person back to a state of glory and spiritual life. This is one reason Jesus suffered a spiritual death in making the atonement.

Now finally, a fourth reason why it was necessary for the Spirit to be withdrawn from Christ derives from the assumption that to have a mortal experience, he had to repress the divine powers within himself, so he could go through the challenges of a probation as we do. Let me suggest that if the divine powers which he possessed had been active within him-being powers of life-they would have healed the broken tissues, and he would not have been able to die a normal physical death. But the withdrawal of the Spirit from Jesus enabled him, finally, to pass from this state to the spirit world and experience death as we experience it.

It should be noted, however, that those divine spiritual powers of life which were centered in Christ were centered in him on an independent principle. We do not have them in us on that basis. If we have any part of the Spirit of the Lord in our lives, it is on a dependent principle. It is by our faith in Christ, and it is because he gives the Spirit to us. But Jesus had the powers of the Spirit in him on the same principle that the Father has them-on an independent principle. For this reason Christ could suffer more than any human being, because it took an act of will on his part to release his spirit from his body. It was not until he permitted his spirit to leave his body that he died. So he could subject himself to far greater punishment than we can experience. King Benjamin said: "He shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death" (Mosiah 3:7). Because of this, Jesus could suffer all that was necessary to pay the debt. It was not until he said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" (Luke 23:46) that his spirit finally left his body and passed into the spirit world.

The Apostle Paul gives us a very significant statement in the sixth chapter of Romans, when he said that "Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father" (Romans 6:4). What does that mean? Christ was raised up by the glory of the Father. To me it means that after Christ went into the spirit world, the Father gave him the endowments of glory again. These were endowments of power; God's glory is his power. Jesus was then in the spirit world with the glory and power of his Father. Over the spirit world were the bands of death. I imagine that was similar to being in a pit with ten feet of reinforced concrete poured over the top. There was no way for those in the spirit world to get out of their situation. But when Jesus went to the spirit world, he had the power literally to break the bands of death and to come out of the spirit world-to raise his body from the dead and to open the way for the resurrection of all men. Meanwhile he had paid the debt of justice for all men by the withdrawal of the Spirit that he experienced and by the pain and the anguish that resulted from that withdrawal. For this reason he could give a remission of sins to those who would accept this gospel. He had also acquired the glory of the Father in its fulness and the privilege of giving the powers of the Spirit to men, by which they could be glorified. So in all these respects he could stand as a savior to mankind: He broke the bands of death; he paid the debt of justice; he acquired the fulness of the Father's glory and the right and power to give all of these things to man. All these were required in order to give salvation to the human family.

Let me now turn our attention to the results that flow from the atonement. Generally speaking, we can say that there are two kinds of benefits that are derived from that divine and infinite act. First, there are benefits that are given to all men unconditionally-given regardless of merit both to the righteous and to the wicked. Second, there are those benefits that are given only as the individual meets certain requirements. These are conditional benefits. Let me turn first to some of the unconditional benefits and then to the conditional benefits.

The first great gift that is given unconditionally to all men is the gift of life. To see this fact, let me note again that before the fall Adam was in the presence of God. Then, by transgression, he died a spiritual death-the first spiritual death. This was a withdrawal of divine power from him. These were living powers, so that he actually died in the sense that he lost life. His spirit did not leave his body, but there were spiritual powers of life withdrawn from him so that he experienced an actual death of a spiritual nature.

The first spiritual death is cushioned by the power of the atonement. You might ask how it could be cushioned for Adam and the people after him when the atonement was not made until about 4,000 years later. Let me turn to a statement by the Prophet Joseph Smith which helps us answer this question. He said: "Everlasting covenant was made between three personages before the organization of this earth, and relates to their dispensation of things to men on the earth; these personages, according to Abraham's record, are called God the first, the Creator; God the second, the Redeemer; and God the third, the witness or Testator" (TPJS, p. 190).

Jesus was one of these three personages who entered into an everlasting covenant pertaining to things that were to be dispensed to men on earth. His part in that covenant was to make the atonement. He, as it were, signed a promissory note. He entered into a covenant, and on the strength of that covenant there were benefits which could be drawn from the atonement before Christ died on the cross. For example, a person can go to a bank and sign a promissory note that he will pay a certain amount of money at a future day and then immediately draw upon the benefits of that agreement. In a similar way, Jesus covenanted to pay the debt. For this reason he is called "the Lamb slain on Calvary, but slain from before the foundation of the world because the everlasting covenant into which he entered was made before the creation.

As the first spiritual death took place, the power of the atonement acted to cushion the fall. Instead of suffering a total, or complete, withdrawal of the Spirit, a measure of the Spirit (we refer to it as the Light of Christ) was still extended to the earth to quicken and give life to man and other forms of life in this fallen state. Life on earth was suspended between glory and total perdition.

Because of that suspending action, it is rightfully said that in Christ we live and move and have a being (see John 1:9, Acts 17:28). Except for that cushioning power which is made possible through the atonement, no mortal life would exist on this earth. Even the light of the sun would not shine on this earth. That light, according to D&C 88, is one expression of the glory and power of Jesus Christ (see particularly D&C 88:7-11). If spiritual death were complete, there would be no quickening powers of any kind-no light of any kind, including the light of the sun-coming to this earth from God.

So the first great gift which is given to all men through the atonement is the gift of life. As you read the scriptures, you see how they bear witness to man's dependence upon God for the life that man possesses. King Benjamin's great statement comes to mind in which he gives this classic explanation: "I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another-I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet would be unprofitable servants" (Mosiah 2:21, italics added). It is through the spiritual powers that Christ extends to us by virtue of the atonement, having convenanted before the creation to pay the debt so that he could cushion the spiritual fall without robbing justice, that we live and move and have a being. So the lives of all men, wicked and righteous, and of all things on this earth are made possible by that great, infinite act-the atonement of Jesus Christ.

The second gift which is given unconditionally to all men is the gift of spiritual and moral agency. Here also the fact that man is suspended in mortality between glory and peridition by the power of the atonement is the basis of the power of the atonement, the basis of this gift. The Spirit of God is given to mortal man in his suspended state to lead him upward in spiritual and moral excellence toward the full presence of God. But on the other hand, the darkening powers of the adversary operate upon mortal man through the corrupt elements which are sown in his flesh through the transgression and fall of Adam. Man can choose either to progress upward to God or retrogress into greater realms of spiritual darkness and moral decay than he is placed in by the fall of Adam.

This is the basic freedom that is given to man, and it may appropriately be called spiritual and moral agency. Lehi spoke of this freedom when he said:

The Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves. ... Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great mediation of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself. (2 Nephi 2:26-27, italics added)

Having explained this great principle of spiritual and moral agency, Lehi then said to his sons: "I would that ye should look to the great Mediator, and hearken unto his great commandments; and be faithful unto his words, and choose eternal life, according to the will of his Holy Spirit" (2 Nephi 2:28). In other words, choose to move upward spiritually into God's presence. He continued: "And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell ..." (2 Nephi 2:29).

Even people in Russia have a measure of spiritual and moral agency. It is the freedom to choose to follow or to reject the enlightening influence of the Spirit of God in their lives. They, as well as all men, have the right to choose between the flesh and the world or the principles of moral rectitude.

Nevertheless, men have greater freedom in spiritual and moral issues when there is a climate of civil and political freedom. This was the primary reason, in the eyes of the Lord, that the Constitution of the United States was established. In a revelation to Joseph Smith, the Lord explained that the Constitution was established, "that every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgement" (D&C 101:78, italics added).

Third, there are some unconditional benefits which are given to children as a result of the atonement. First, by virtue of the atonement they are innocent at birth. A revelation stated that "every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God" (D&C 93:38).

There was such a thing as a original sin, and the legal effects of that original sin would have been extended to Adam's children from the legal responsibility. We therefore have the article of faith that states that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression. Keep this in mind: Little children are alive in Christ. That is why it takes the atonement of Christ to make them innocent. That is why the practice of baptizing infants is a denial of the atonement. It is not so much an afront against the child as it is a denial of the fact that unconditionally the atonement of Christ releases little children from any legal consequence or obligation that might otherwise be required of them through the transgression of their original parent Adam.

Little children also have a period of immunity from the direct tempting influences of the adversary. The Lord states that the power of the adversary is restricted in their behalf so that Satan cannot tempt them until they begin to be accountable before him (see D&C 29:47).

Finally, little children are not held responsible for the laws they may break until they attain to the age of eight years.

There is a similar situation with the heathen nations. The Book of Mormon teaches that where there is no law, the power of the atonement unconditionally pays the debt of justice for mankind. We need to keep the fact in mind, however, that it is only by law and man's obedience to it that he can acquire celestial redemption.

There are two other gifts given by the atonement to mankind. The first is universal redemption from physical death. Death came into the world by and through an act of Adam, did it not? This doctrine is generally understood by Latter-day Saints, so I will not spend much time on it. Just let me ask you this question, Does redemption from physical death come to all men regardless of whether they are wicked or righteous? For example, are sons of perdition resurrected. There is a resurrection of life, and there is a resurrection of damnation. But the resurrection is given to all men. Section 29 of the Doctrine and Covenants makes that very plain, as also does section 88.

The second of these two gifts is not so well understood by most people. Let me ask, Is redemption from the first spiritual death unconditional, or is it conditional? Are all men brought back into God's presence by the power of the atonement even if they are wicked? How many of you say, No? How many of you say, Yes?

We had one person who said, Yes, and that is the correct answer. Let me read you the testimony of the scriptures. This is a basic doctrine of the Book of Mormon, and we need to know it. Here is an important insight into the atonement. This testimony comes from Samuel the Lamanite. Speaking of the power of the atonement, he said: "Yea, behold, this death of Christ bringeth to pass the resurrection that is one thing it does, and redeemeth all mankind from the first death-that spiritual death" (Helaman 14:16). What does the atonement of Christ do? It does two things. First, it brings to pass the resurrection. Second, it redeems all mankind, from the first death-that spiritual death-that spiritual death.

Having stated these two points, Samuel explained: "For all mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual. But behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord" (Helaman 14:16-17, italics added).

Now what does the atonement do for all mankind? It brings them all back into the presence of God. Let me make this clarification: the power of the atonement is such that it brings every person in the resurrection back to a condition of glory somewhat like Adam was in before the fall. It restores the spirit to the body in resurrection, and it brings every person, unconditionally, back into God's presence.

When some people are forced by this scripture to concede this point, they say, "But, Brother Andrus, the wicked will never see the Lord. They might be brought back to a state of glory, but they will never see the Lord." So I turn to Jacob's famous "wo" section, in the Book of Mormon. Note that he says: "Wo unto the deaf that will not hear. ... Wo unto the blind that will not see. ... Wo unto the murderer. ... Wo unto them who commit whoredoms. ... Wo unto those that worship idols. ... Wo unto the uncircumcised of heart. ... Wo unto the liar". (2 Nephi 9:31-37). Wo unto the mini-skirted ones. Wo unto the seedy-looking ones. In these last statements, I merely undated this a little bit.

But note what Jacob said in his concluding statement: "And in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins." Now, who is he talking about, the wicked or the righteous? "Wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins" (2 Nephi 9:38, italics added). What are they going to do? They are going to return to God and behold his face and remain in their sins.

There is a divine purpose for the wicked, as well as the righteous, in being brought back by the power of the atonement into the presence of God. Admittedly the wicked do not stay in the presence of God. But they are brought back for a purpose, and that is to be judged. Jesus explained this point to the Nephites. He said:

This is the gospel which I have given unto you-that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, now, note this: that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. (3 Nephi 27-13-14, italics added).

Now what is going to happen by the power of the atonement? As men lifted up Christ on the cross, so will the Father lift up all men, wicked and righteous, to stand before Jesus to be judged of their works.

But, what happens when the judgment comes and a person at the resurrection is filthy still? What happens to him? He then dies a second spiritual death, does he not? The second spiritual death is also called the last spiritual death-the LSD. (And we might note in passing that LSD can bring a person to experience the last spiritual death.)

There can be no second spiritual death unless there is a termination of the first spiritual death. But there is a termination of the first spiritual death. The power of the atonement brings all men back to a condition equivalent to that state of glory from which Adam fell. This could not be done except by the power of the atonement. Otherwise, divine justice would not permit it. But Christ, having paid the debt of sin for Adam and all men, can satisfy justice and bring men, even the wicked, back into his presence to be judged.

This is a vital part of the gospel program. Joseph Smith taught that there are six "first principles," not just four. They are: faith in Christ, repentence, baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost, resurrection, and eternal judgment. (See Hyrum L. Andrus, Principles of Perfection, pp. 10-12.) Let us think about this for a moment. Every person eventually will be resurrected. Every person is also going to be brought to stand in the presence of God to be judged for his actions in mortality. Note the justice in this. We consented to come to this earth. The atonement finally brings us back to a condition like that from which Adam fell. We must then stand on our own in the judgment.

Sometimes we get the idea that if we are wicked enough we will never see the Lord-never have that embarrassing experience. We sometimes feel that we can skirt around the bishop and never show ourselves inside the church; then on the day of judgment, if we are wicked enough, we will never see the Lord. Such a view opens the way, I believe, for people to continue in their sins.

But if we had a true concept of the doctrine of eternal judgment, we would recognize that even if we become the most perverse creatures on earth, the day will come when we will stand in the presence of Christ, in all his glory and holiness, and give an account of our acts. We will have the video tape played back, so to speak, and see everything that we did and then be required to confess that a righteous judgment has been passed upon us, as we are cast again from his presence.

This was the truth-the fact-that helped bring Alma the younger to repentance. When the angel appeared to him and, to use a colloquial expression, backed the hearse up to let him smell the roses and see what the future held for him unless he repented, then Alma, having been taught this doctrine, became impressed with the ultimate consequence of his sins. Note what he said: "So great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror. Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds" (Alma 36:14-15, italics added).

When that thought began to have some impact in his heart and in his mind, he then came to repentance. So it can be with us. If we recognize that even though we do things in secret, and even though we might not be seen by mortal man, the time will come when we will give an account before the bar of God, in the presence of God and other holy personages. This will work on our minds and hearts to bring us to repentance.

Let me explain a few more particulars regarding the doctrine of the judgment. All men are brought back into God's presence to be judged. Then those who have not qualified themselves to remain in his presence and be crowned with celestial glory will die a spiritual death to the degree that they merit. There are several degrees of spiritual death. In a revelation the Lord said: "Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law" (D&C 132:25, italics added). Those who are consigned to the terrestrial kingdom are spiritually dead to the greater powers of the celestial kingdom, even though the terrestrial kingdom is one of glory. To a greater extent the same is true of those who go to the telestial kingdom, though, again, it is a kingdom of some glory. But sons of perdetion suffer a total spiritual death, which is like the first spiritual death that Adam brought to this mortal sphere, except for two things: First, the second spiritual death is not cushioned by the atonement. It is total darkness. Even such light as that that of the sun, which is part of the Light of Christ (see D&C 88:7-13), has no effect upon those who suffer this second spiritual death. Second, there is no redemption provided from the second spiritual death.

Let me turn now to the conditional benefits which are given to men through the atonement. These benefits are those that are given to people when they are placed under responsibility to the law of God, by which they can attain the celestial kingdom. Under those conditions they cannot obtain a forgiveness of personal sins except by the action of faith and by the repentance of all their sins. The indiv

[CrimsonKairos]

Thanks for posting that. I enjoy Brother Andrus's writings, though I haven't read a ton of them (I'll refer to him as Bro. A from now on).

Just to be clear, I'm not asking questions because I don't know the answers. I'm asking questions to get people to stop, think of why they believe what they do, and then realize, "Hey, the scriptures don't teach this at all! Why have I been taught to believe this?"

Bro. A's comments that you quoted are a prime example. He approaches the atonement from the penal-substitution in Gethsemane mindset, and in so doing, relies on several incorrect assumptions in my opinion.

1.) Bro. A assumes that Justice's demands must be complied with. He does not allow for the possibility that Justice can be overpowered, or satisfied to the point that it withdraws its demands. In his mind, Justice is a force outside of God that must be complied with and that not even God can resist that force.

I believe that is wrong. I believe that Justice is merely the act of enforcing law, and that God dispenses Justice. Justice doesn't "force God's hand." Justice isn't a sentient, actionable consciousness or force. Justice is the result of enforcing law, and God can choose to pardon someone if He wishes.

2.) His penal-substitution theory further requires the assumption that Justice's demands are that someone, anyone, must receive a punishment when a law is broken, and it doesn't have to be the offender who suffers the punishment. This is an error. Justice is predicated on the Law of the Harvest: Reap what you sow. Justice doesn't want just anyone to go to jail when there is a bank robbery. Justice demands that the bank robber go to jail or reap what he has sown by his criminal acts. Alma 34 explains clearly that a Just law does not transfer the punishment from a guilty person to an innocent person. That is robbing justice, not paying it or satisfying it.

Even if you disagree with points 1 and 2 above, there is an incredibly basic fact that disproves penal-substitution as a valid explanation of how the atonement makes remission of sin possible. I just realized tonight how the penal-substitution theory of atonement cannot possibly be true. I don't know why I didn't see this sooner, but it's so clear to me now.

Just to recap, the penal-substitution view (which Bro. A endorses) goes something like this:

1.) When we sin, Justice demands that we lose the Spirit's influence.

2.) In order to have our sins remitted, Jesus had all of the Spirit's influence withdrawn from him in Gethsemane so that Justice would be satisfied that someone lost an infinite amount of the Spirit--even if that wasn't us.

3.) When we repent of our sins, Jesus activates his vicarious suffering and tells Justice, "I paid the sinner's debt, I lost the Spirit in their place, now that their punishment has been suffered their sins can be remitted and they can regain the Spirit's influence and again be worthy."

That sounds okay, right? It would be okay except that it ignores the full consequences of sin.

Ultimately, the law that we all have to grapple with says that no unclean thing can inherit all that the Father has. It is "illegal" as it were, to give a perfect reward to someone who has sinned even once and been imperfectly obedient.

So the consequence of us sinning even once is that we are forever banished from God's presence. We can never dwell with Him or inherit His riches, even if we spend the rest of our existence serving Him. If we are disobedient just once, Justice demands that we be kept from dwelling with the Father. Period. Consider these scriptures:

20 Therefore remember, O man, for all thy doings thou shalt be brought into judgment.

21 Wherefore, if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment-seat of God; and no unclean thing can dwell with God; wherefore, ye must be cast off forever. (1 Ne. 10:20-21; emphasis mine)

57 Wherefore teach it unto your children, that all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence; for, in the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ, a righteous Judge, who shall come in the meridian of time. (Moses 6:57; emphasis mine)

So the punishment for sin is eternal banishment from God's presence.

The punishment for sin is not: "Temporarily lose the Spirit until your 'debt' is paid," whatever that means.

Okay, well if the atonement really is about Christ suffering the punishment for our sins in our place so that we can dwell with God and Justice can be satisfied that someone was punished for our sins, do you realize what that means for Christ?

The punishment for even one sin is being eternally cast off and shut out from God. So if Jesus's atonement is all about paying our debt and complying with Justice, then he would still be in spirit prison following his death, because we sinners can't resurrect ourselves, and if Christ is taking our place and taking our punishment, he would be:

1.) Forever disembodied and unable to experience the resurrection.

2.) Forever shut out from God's presence since that is what Justice demands be done to sinners.

No one really follows the penal-substitution theory through to its ultimate conclusion. If they did they'd realize, "Hey, if my punishment is eternal banishment, then for Christ to suffer in my place, he must be forever consigned to outer darkness as a disembodied spirit since that is the punishment Justice demands I suffer for sinning."

To believe the penal-substitution theory of atonement, you have to believe a handful of heresies including the doctrine that Jesus must forever be shut out from God's presence and never be resurrected. I cannot believe such lies.

I believe Christ rose from the dead on the third day.

I believe Christ ascended to the Father's Right Hand.

I believe Christ now dwells and will forever dwell in our Heavenly Father's presence.

If you want me to believe that the atonement involved Christ suffering the punishment for my sins so I don't have to if I repent, then:

You believe that Christ did not rise from the dead since sinners can't resurrect themselves.

You believe that Christ could not return to God's presence since no unclean thing can dwell with God.

You believe that Christ now dwells and will forever dwell in spirit prison or outer darkness, since that is where Justice demands sinners go.

Believe what you will. Me? I'll believe what the scriptures say. The scriptures teach that because Jesus allowed wicked men to shed his blood on the cross...and because Christ suffered that injustice alone...that God will blot out the record of our past sins for Christ's sake if we repent and forsake sin evermore.

As Zenos said in Alma 33:13, God turns away His judgments because of His Son.

As Amulek says in Alma 34:15, Christ's sacrifice overpowers justice.

As all the scriptures attest, so D&C 138:35 adds its witness:

And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross.

To God alone the glory, and Christ's name be praised forever, he who was the Lamb of God, slain for the sins of the world and Mediator between God the Father and mankind evermore.

[Maureen]

The Garden of Gethsemane

(Luke 22:39-46)

By:

Bob Deffinbaugh , Th.M.

...Second, Jesus was probing the matter of the cross with His Father to see if there was any other way to achieve the salvation of men. Jesus is asking the Father whether or not there is any other way for the sins of men to be forgiven. The answer is obvious, for the purpose and plan of God stands, and is faithfully pursued by the Lord Jesus.

Let me pause for a moment to underscore this very important point: THERE WAS NO[T] OTHER WAY FOR MEN TO BE SAVED THAN THROUGH THE INNOCENT AND SUBSTITUTIONARY SUFFERING OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. Jesus had said it before. He was the way, the truth, and the life. No man could come to the Father, except through Him, except through faith in His death on Calvary, in the sinner’s place. How often we hear men speak of the cross of Calvary as a way, one option among many as to how men can attain eternal life. Let me say that if there were any other way Jesus would not have gone to the cross, and the Father would not have sent Him. The prayer of our Lord in the garden underscores the truth of the New Testament that there is but one way, and that way is the shed blood of the sinless Savior, shed for sinners...

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1138

This is just an excerpt from this essay I just posted. Just linking it for anyone who might be interested in reading other ideas regarding Gethsemane. CK, I would be interested in your opinion of this essay.

M.

[CrimsonKairos]

Overall I enjoyed that article, Maureen.

I agree with the author's conclusion that the agony and sorrow and prayers of Gethsemane were due to Christ's increased apprehension of his impending crucifixion with its attendant miseries (arrest, trial, scourging, etc...).

Still, I don't agree with the belief that Christ's suffering was substitutionary. LDS believe primarily that the penal-substitution occurred in Gethsemane, whereas non-LDS Christians primarily believe that the penal-substitutition occurred on Calvary.

But I don't think there was penal-substitution at all. Was Christ penalized on the cross? Yes. Did Christ "pay a price" in dying for us? Yes. Did he suffer our punishment in our place so we don't have to? No.

If Christ's sacrifice on the cross really was substitutionary...if Christ really did die in the place of sinners...then none of us would die. That is what penal-substitution means: Christ pays the price for our sins, so don't have to if we repent.

Thus, if Christ took our punishment/s for sin, we wouldn't die since death is a consequence of sin (Romans 6:23). If both we die (which we all do) and Christ died for our sins (which he did), then that isn't fulfilling Justice. That's overpaying Justice. That's two sentences being served for one conviction.

Let me use a simplistic analogy to better illustrate my point. Remember in the beginning of "Raiders of the Lost Ark?" Indie is trying to get the valuable idol or figurine but it rests on a pressure plate that will trigger all sorts of booby traps. So he rubs his manly chin (hahahaha), pour some sand out of his sandbag, and then substitutes the sandbag in place of the idol.

That is what substitution is: putting one thing in the place of another. So let's think of it like this:

idol = sinners

pressure plate = punishment for sin (physical and spiritual death, i.e. banishment from God's presence)

sandbag = Christ

So let's say that when we sin, we must be placed on the "pressure plate" like the idol. As long as we are on the pressure plate, Justice is satisfied and our punishment is dispensed. Well penal-substitution would argue that for us to get off the "pressure plate" something else must sit on it in our place.

"Yes," you may say, "Christ took our place, suffered for our sins so that we can be forgiven." So according to that view, Christ would have to take our place on the "pressure plate" which represents the punishment for sin, so that we can "get off" the "pressure plate" or have our sins remitted.

Okay, makes sense so far. But what is the punishment for sin? Physical death and spiritual death (separation from God). So if we are to escape those punishments, Christ has to take them for us. Christ has to die and be kept from dwelling with God. Just like in the movie, if the pressure plate has nothing sitting on it, then the traps are triggered or Justice goes unfulfilled or is robbed, and God does not allow this.

So either the idol (us) has to be on the pressure plate or the sandbag (Christ) has to be on the pressure plate in our place. If both the idol and sandbag are removed from the pressure plate, all Hell breaks loose (no pun intended). But the scriptures teach that both we and Christ can dwell with God forever. That would be like removing both the idol and the sandbag from the pressure plate. That's why penal-substitution doesn't make sense.

If we are to escape the punishment for our sins and forever dwell with God (like removing the idol from the pressure plate), then Christ must take our punishment and be forever shut out from God (like the sandbag being put on the pressure plate).

If Christ has to forever occupy our place so we can "get off" the pressure plate, then Christ must forever remain disembodied after physical death since that's a punishment for sin. Christ must also be forever banned from dwelling with God since that's also a punishment for sin (Psalm 15:1-5; Psalm 24:3-4).

Yet we know that Christ was resurrected, and that he does dwell with God. But if penal-substitution is how the atonement works, then that would be like taking the idol off the pressure plate and also taking the sandbag off the pressure plate. Cue the traps and certain doom.

According to penal-substitution, it is impossible for both us and Christ to dwell with God. One of us must suffer the eternal punishment for sin; one of us must be shut out from God's presence forever as Justice demands. Yet we know that God sent His Son so that if we believe in him, we can return to God's presence and dwell with Him forever.

Thus, it is clear that penal-substitution cannot be how the atonement works. Christ does not make remission of sins possible by "paying our debt" for us and complying with Justice. If he did, he would forever be barred from dwelling with God so that we could dwell with God.

I believe that Christ's sacrifice for sin--endured alone--does not please or fulfill Justice's demands. Instead, Christ's sacrifice overpowers Justice's demands (Alma 34).

Going back to the Indiana Jones analogy, Christ's atonement doesn't put something else in the idol's place to keep the booby traps from springing into action. Christ's atonement disarms the booby traps so that when the idol is removed from the pressure plate, nothing bad happens and nothing must sit on the pressure plate.

One reason I dislike the penal-substitution theory (besides it being doctrinally impossible and false) is that it downplays the consequences we face when we sin. It's like we're told, "Rack up serious spiritual debt, and if you repent, you won't have to suffer it. Christ pays it for you."

Make no mistake, we will suffer for our sins. We will pay a price everytime we disobey God. The good news is that thanks to Christ's sacrifice, God is willing to blot out our guilt and--once we have suffered the penalty of our wickedness--act as though we had never sinned in the first place. Thanks to Christ, and for his sake alone, God will apply His grace to our spiritual record and spiritual nature so that both become clean, holy, without spot.

In that state of holiness, with clean hands and a pure heart, we may dwell with God while everything unclean must be shut out.

So it is the unjust suffering of Christ that overpowers the just suffering we deserve due to our sins. In essence, Christ goes to God the Father and says,

"Holy Father, Thou hast two options. First, Thou mayest punish CrimsonKairos for his sins as Justice demands, and banish him from Thy presence as a disembodied spirit. Or, if he repents and allows me to work within him and perfect his nature so that he will never sin again, Thou mayest blot out or forget his past sins since he now has clean hands and a pure heart. Consider my unjust suffering and death, my blood which was shed by wicked men. For my sake Father, because of what I suffered, remit CrimsonKairos's sins that he may dwell with us and have eternal life in Thy presence."

Now if I do indeed forsake sin, deny myself of all ungodliness, am spiritually reborn and have my natural man crucified and my old sinful desires erased by Christ's grace...then God would be justified in erasing the record of my past sins (since I'd never sin again) and letting me into His presence since I would have become clean and holy, and that is the standard for dwelling with God: No unclean thing can dwell with Him, and clean things can dwell with Him.

If I did all those things, and became clean and holy, and if God then chose to enforce Justice's demands that I be barred from His presence because I sinned once upon a time, it'd be equivalent to Him saying to Christ, "Thy unjust suffering does not move my heart to pity. Thy pains and blood and death are not as important to me as enforcing the letter of the law."

Thankfully, that's not what happens. When our Heavenly Father is faced with enforcing the letter of the law on the one hand, and contemplating the awful misery and death of His Beloved Son on the other hand, I believe that the infinite and eternal sacrifice of His Son on the cross melts His heart, causes Him to lose His appetite for Justice's letter of the law demands, and moves Him to pardon our past transgressions and let us dwell with Him for Christ's sake.

1.) Justice is not paid, though Christ "paid a price" in sacrificing himself for us.

2.) Christ does not suffer our punishments in our place, though he does take our sins upon him in a symbolic sense since he died to blot out our sins.

3.) The demands of Justice are overpowered, not complied with, because of the unjust suffering of our Lord and for his sake.

Christ doesn't "pay our creditor." Instead, Christ convinces our creditor to "withdraw his demand for payment" from us or anyone.

[lewisqic]

"Holy Father, Thou hast two options. First, Thou mayest punish CrimsonKairos for his sins as Justice demands, and banish him from Thy presence as a disembodied spirit. Or, if he repents and allows me to work within him and perfect his nature so that he will never sin again, Thou mayest blot out or forget his past sins since he now has clean hands and a pure heart. Consider my unjust suffering and death, my blood which was shed by wicked men. For my sake Father, because of what I suffered, remit CrimsonKairos's sins that he may dwell with us and have eternal life in Thy presence."

All i have ever learned or been taught has been the penal-substitution doctrine, and so i'm trying to be open minded and wrap my thoughts around this new idea.

However, in reading your last post, i had some thoughts about your ideas.

Why in the world would our loving Heavenly Father have to be persuaded to apply his cleansing grace unto his children? He wants to exalt us, he wants us to succeed, he wants us to return to him. So i don't understand why it would take the pleadings of our Savior to move him enough so that he might save us.

I believe he wants to save us, to cleanse us, but he is unable to do so because he also is bound by law. There was and is something about the atonement of Christ that enables the Father and Son to extend their saving grace and mercy unto sinners. Something happened in the atonement that unlocked or made possible the powers of salvation for mankind upon conditions that man would repent and forsake sin and turn unto the Lord.

What exactly it was about the atonement that made these things possible? I'm not sure, still trying to figure it out. Just some of my thoughts and opinions.

[CrimsonKairos]

Why in the world would our loving Heavenly Father have to be persuaded to apply his cleansing grace unto his children?

Because we don't deserve it and the laws of heaven forbid it. The atonement is about persuading God the Father to withdraw the law's demands, not about fulfilling the law's demands or paying Justice.

Heavenly Father cannot be both our Judge and Advocate. The Judge enforces the law, whereas the Advocate seeks to overpower the law. If the Father were both our Judge and Advocate, He'd be divided against Himself and in a self-contradictory position. That is why we need a Savior to Mediate between us and the Father.

He wants to exalt us, he wants us to succeed, he wants us to return to him. So i don't understand why it would take the pleadings of our Savior to move him enough so that he might save us.

It's not just a matter of making Him want to remit our sins, but actually getting Him to withdraw Justice's demands. Without a compelling reason to remit our sins, Heavenly Father must enforce the law which demands that we be kept from His presence.

However, when Christ asks Father to blot out our past sins for his sake, suddenly there is a compelling and external reason to withdraw Justice's demands. Our Advocate must be someone other than our Father. Otherwise, He would be divided against Himself.

I believe he wants to save us, to cleanse us, but he is unable to do so because he also is bound by law.

Yes, but also because there is no external reason for Him to withdraw the law's demands. We can never deserve remission of sins for our own sake. Hence, there is no reason God would ever pardon our past sins. That is, until Christ steps up and pleads for us.

There was and is something about the atonement of Christ...that unlocked or made possible the powers of salvation for mankind upon conditions that man would repent and forsake sin and turn unto the Lord.

I believe there are two necessary components that must be in place before God will remit our sins.

1.) We must cease to sin, and never sin again.

2.) There must be a reason strong enough to persuade God to withdraw the law's demands.

What we need to have happen is for us to be made clean, holy, without spot. But God the Father cannot be the one who cleanses us since it is He who enforces the law and the law says we don't deserve such an act of mercy.

Ah, but Christ is the Mediator, and he has made it possible for us to be spiritually reborn, to become perfect in him, to literally arrive at a state where we no longer desire to sin and never will sin again. So in that state of perfect obedience, Christ takes us before the Father and says:

"I know the law states that one who has sinned cannot dwell with Thee, Father. That is the letter of the law. But the spirit of the law--the reason for its existence--is to keep imperfect and unclean beings from entering Thy presence. I have helped this person abandon sin. They have let me change their hearts so that the very thought of sinning makes them shudder in disgust. They now obey perfectly, even though they did not always do so. They now desire truth and righteousness with their whole being.

"Since they are now perfectly obedient, they qualify to dwell with thee according to the spirit of the law. They will no longer dirty their hands with sin, nor will they entertain impure thoughts in their hearts. The only thing keeping them from dwelling with thee is their spiritual record of past sins. I know they do not deserve for their sins to be remitted. They can never produce a compelling reason for Thou to erase their past misdeeds from the Book of Life.

"However, I ask that Thou remit or blot out their past sins. I ask that Thou withdraw the letter of the law's demands. If Thou wilt do this, they will not only be perfectly obedient, but holy and without spot. They will become as though they had obeyed Thee always, even as I have. Consider my unjust suffering, Father. I voluntarily allowed wicked men to spill my blood on the cross, out of love for this former sinner. I died that they might be made perfect, clean and thus return to dwell with Thee.

"If Thou will not remit this person's past sins, Thou wilt make my sacrifice of no effect. I will have suffered, bled and died for nothing. Thou wilt be valuing the letter of the law more than my life and death. For my sake, Father, forget this person's past shame, remit their sins, blot them out, and let us all become one in Thy presence."

That is how I think our Advocate approaches our Father.

Even if Christ's suffering were enough to get God to remit our sins, God will not remit our sins until we've ceased to sin, and we cannot cease to sin until Christ applies his grace to our unclean souls. That is why we must forsake sin, become perfect in Christ and in that state God is justified in remitting our abandoned sins for Christ's sake, not ours. This is explained clearly in Moroni 10:32-33. Notice the cause and effect sequence before we can be sanctified and holy, without spot. We must become perfect before our sins are remitted!

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot. (emphasis mine)

[i beg everyone's pardon if this post wanders or rambles. I'm not feeling the best right now, and I find it difficult to order my thoughts as easily as I feel I do at other times. I know that I'm not articulating my beliefs clearly, but I tried my best for now.]

[BenRaines]

CK. A thought I had on Sunday as I reflected on your thread. Did not the atonement begin with Christ offering himself as the sacrifice in the pre-existence. That was the beginning of the atonement, culminated with his death on the cross.

Had he not done all the things prior there would have been no atonement, Had he not been born, lived a perfect life, resisted all manner ot temptation, suffering in the garden and allowed himself to be crucified. Was not all of that part of the atonement process?

Ben Raines

[Adomini22]

CK said above..

"2.) His penal-substitution theory further requires the assumption that Justice's demands are that someone, anyone, must receive a punishment when a law is broken, and it doesn't have to be the offender who suffers the punishment. This is an error. Justice is predicated on the Law of the Harvest: Reap what you sow. Justice doesn't want just anyone to go to jail when there is a bank robbery. Justice demands that the bank robber go to jail or reap what he has sown by his criminal acts. Alma 34 explains clearly that a Just law does not transfer the punishment from a guilty person to an innocent person. That is robbing justice, not paying it or satisfying it."

It is said that Christ suffered for our sins so that we would not suffer if we repent. That is penal-substitution. Also, on another principle....baptisms for the dead. That is a form of penal-substitution. Law must be met. Justice must be met.

[CrimsonKairos]

CK. A thought I had on Sunday as I reflected on your thread. Did not the atonement begin with Christ offering himself as the sacrifice in the pre-existence.

I wouldn't disagree with that. He is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. His sacrifice on the cross only has effect because he has always obeyed God perfectly.

It is said that Christ suffered for our sins so that we would not suffer if we repent. That is penal-substitution.

Not so. D&C 19 doesn't say, "I suffered your punishments in your place so you don't have to if you repent." What Christ says in D&C 19 is that he suffered in the process of redeeming us, and that if we don't repent we must suffer too. He doesn't say we will suffer what he suffered. If you believe that, then you believe that all unrepentant souls must bleed from every pore.

Also, you're ignoring the fact that the punishment for sin is separation from God (1 Ne. 10:21). How does Christ transform being eternally cast off from God into bleeding from every pore? That makes no sense at all, and doesn't even come close to complying with Justice.

Also, on another principle....baptisms for the dead. That is a form of penal-substitution. Law must be met. Justice must be met.

Again, nope. Penal means punishment. Baptism is an ordinance, not a punishment. Saying that we must all partake of the same ordinances is completely different from saying that someone else can take our punishment in our place. You're confusing principles. Ordinances aren't about paying Justice, or complying with Justice.

Ordinances are about voluntarily coming to God, demonstrating our submission, and qualifying for spiritual rebirth...it's like us signing on the dotted line of a contract. My mom has power-of-attorney for my dad right now since his handwriting is horrible due to his brain damage and arm injuries. So when he can't sign a document, or leave home to go somewhere to sign something, my mom can do it for him.

That's vicarious proxy, and that's the principle upon which ordinances for the dead work.

Take a look at D&C 138:58-59 (emphasis mine). It mentions how the dead who repent must accept the ordinances that are performed for them in the temple (vicarious proxy) but it also says they must pay the penalty for their own sins before they're forgiven:

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

So are you saying that the living who repent don't have to pay the penalty for their sins, but that there is a different gospel standard that applies once you die?

Penal-substitution is false. We will pay a penalty for every sin we commit. However, the penalty doesn't have to last, i.e. we don't have to be cast off forever if we repent and take Christ's name upon us.

[Adomini22]

Ok, so I am going to go slowly, one step at a time.....

1) I jumped the gun on the penal-substitution... I saw "substitution" and immediatly opened my mouth. I apologize. Baptisms for the dead is not penal substitution. It involves a form of substitution, but not penal. That was the "link" in my head that made me spout about it in the first place. (insert foot in mouth)

2) I said in my previous post "that Jesus suffered so we dont suffer if we repent." It was replied with

"Not so. D&C 19 doesn't say, "I suffered your punishments in your place so you don't have to if you repent." What Christ says in D&C 19 is that he suffered in the process of redeeming us, and that if we don't repent we must suffer too. He doesn't say we will suffer what he suffered. If you believe that, then you believe that all unrepentant souls must bleed from every pore."

From what I understand.... he suffered the Spirit leaving him, which process, among others, led him to bleed from every poor. Do I believe we all will bleed like that? No. I am not God, so I wouldnt know... but will we suffer the departure of the spirit if we dont repent? Yes. Like he did? Yes. The spirit of God doesnt dwell in unholy places, temples,etc. So, if we sin, we are unclean, and suffer the departure of the spirit. If we dont ever repent, we will suffer what Jesus did...the departure of the Spirit. Is that suffering? Yes. Below is the D&C 19 as it stands with verse 17 having CK's inserts in them.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer [separation from the Father] even as I [suffered separation from the Father on the cross];

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink....'

3) Last post was written this, regarding Baptisms for the dead:

"Ordinances aren't about paying Justice, or complying with Justice.

Ordinances are about voluntarily coming to God, demonstrating our submission, and qualifying for spiritual rebirth. That's vicarious proxy, and that's the principle upon which ordinances for the dead work."

Ordinances arent about paying Justice? How about the law, then? It is written that unless a man is born of water (baptism) and fire/spirit(holy ghost), he cannont inherit the kingdom of heaven. This was so important, even our own Savior HAD to do it. Now, those that did not have the chance....... and we give them that chance by doing it for them (this is a form of substitution), the law is met and kept on their behalf, regarding baptism and gift of Holy Ghost. (Of course, they need to be faithful...) I dont see how this could be viewed as not having to do with complying with justice. A law was met and kept via proxy aka form of substitution.

[CrimsonKairos]

From what I understand.... he suffered the Spirit leaving him, which process, among others, led him to bleed from every poor...will we suffer the departure of the spirit if we dont repent? Yes. Like he did? Yes.

Now I gotcha. Yes, we will both suffer a similar punishment. However, my point was that Jesus didn't have the Spirit withdrawn from him so we don't have to go through that if we repent. In other words, he didn't lose the Spirit in our place so Justice could be fulfilled.

He suffered a withdrawal of God's influence for our benefit, but not in our place. We will always lose a portion of the Spirit when we sin, regardless of what Christ underwent in Gethsemane.

Justice is not satisfied with transferring the punishment of a guilty person to an innocent person. Pretend I robbed a bank. Imagine a judge sending my brother to jail for my crime--a crime he didn't commit--even if my brother asked the judge to send him in my place. No court in the world would countenance such a miscarriage of Justice.

There is no way Christ's sacrifice can comply with Justice's demands that we be cast off from God forever. What Christ's sacrifice does is convince God to withdraw the demand that we be cast off. That's entirely different.

Ordinances arent about paying Justice?

What I meant was that ordinances aren't about paying a spiritual debt. We get baptized to show our willingness to take Christ's name upon us, and to have our sins remitted. We don't get baptized to pay for our sins. That's the difference I was pointing out.

I dont see how [baptism for the dead] could be viewed as not having to do with complying with justice. A law was met and kept via proxy aka form of substitution.

The difference is that on the one hand, Justice demands that sinners be cast off from God. Justice will not punish an innocent person in place of the guilty. Alma 34 explains this clearly.

On the other hand, baptism is not a punishment imposed by Justice, so it is perfectly fine for someone else to "sign on the dotted line" as it were, in place of someone else.

I'm not saying vicarious proxy or substitution has no place in the gospel framework. I am saying that Justice--or should I say God--will not transfer the punishment from a guilty person (us) to an innocent person (Christ).

That would be robbing Justice, and as we know, mercy cannot rob Justice. However, mercy can overpower Justice (Alma 34 again) to the point that Justice's demands are withdrawn, not fulfilled.